Should Rafa go?

Killme00

PHB wrote: »

I don't see how you can possibly say he is on par with O'Neill. He has won La Liga, twice. He has won the Champions Leauge. That's just ludicrous.
Maybe you could say Moyes has potential or something, and could overtake Rafa, but in terms of looking at them, it's ludicrous to put him anywhere but 3rd.

ONeill took a nothing team to the UEFA Cup final and beat Liverpool on the way. ONeill is far better in the transfer market and a much better man manager. All things being equal i think ONeill is better. If they were to switch clubs today, i would say Villa would finish in the bottom half and Liverpool would finish fourth.

lordgoat

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

3 and a half years on, and the squad is significantly better player for player. Our defence is now regarded as one of the best in Europe, and this is due in no small part to the emergence of Jamie Carragher The Central Defender under Benitez. Our central midfield is unrivalled in terms of class and in terms of depth. In Torres, it looks like we have the most clinical finisher at our club since the days of Fowler and Rush. The youth teams are full of promising youngsters.

Unrivalled? Seriously have a look at your midfield sometime.

And i'd love to know how many points the mighty jamie has cost liverpool over this season. Granted some of those tackles are trying to cover for one of your unrivalled classy midfielders not tracking back.

I hope rafa stays, maybe get roy evans in to help him out (or souness).

whatawaster

Yes

PHB wrote: »

The draws are the issue. Rafa is too conservative, and doesn't know how to win games. He would prefer a draw to risking defeat or victory. That works great in cups, but you can't win the league on penalties, and that means you can win the league on drawing games.

As for replacements? Mourinho would do better I think.

I don't think Conservatism is behind our too many draws. We simply haven't defended well enough and have been caught on the break so often this season it's frightening.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

No (Liverpool fans)

whatawaster wrote: »

I don't think Conservatism is behind our too many draws. We simply haven't defended well enough and have been caught on the break so often this season it's frightening.

Yes, it is. How many times have Liverpool been one-nil up and conceded a late goal because they were too conservative? The difference between Pool and Man U/Arsenal si that when the others can go 2/3/4 nil up befoer conceding.

whatawaster

Yes

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Yes, it is. How many times have Liverpool been one-nil up and conceded a late goal because they were too conservative? The difference between Pool and Man U/Arsenal si that when the others can go 2/3/4 nil up befoer conceding.

No it's not. I'm assuming you've watched these games. We have consistently gone one nil up and missed chance after chance to go two or three ahead. Sometimes we have gotten away with the win, but lately we have not.

kraggy

No

I'm a neutral but have to ask, what has Rafa done for Liverpool that Houllier didn't. Besides the CL?

Now I know the CL was a tremendous achievement and a wonderful night for ye, but the league is what ye are crying out for now.

Poor performances in the league since he started means that in the league, he hasn't been much more successful than Houllier.

And this with millions wasted on plenty of average players. Pennant et al.

To get success, you must be ruthless and forget the romance of one night in Istanbul. That was 2005, this is 2008. No league title since, or likely in the next 2 years.

It would be good for English soccer if Liverpool won the league again some time soon, but it doesn't look likely under Rafa I feel.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

No (Liverpool fans)

whatawaster wrote: »

No it's not. I'm assuming you've watched these games. We have consistently gone one nil up and missed chance after chance to go two or three ahead. Sometimes we have gotten away with the win, but lately we have not.

In most of the games I've watched, Liverpool have sturuggled to create chances until the last half hour, as I've said before, by which time the opposition has the confidence to hold firm. We've had six games where we've failed to score, four of which have finished nil-nil. This doesn't just happen through bad luck.

Chardee MacDennis

Yes

posted this on the liverpool thread thought i might as well post it here.

oh and i dont want any "thats never going to happen replies" etc just answer the question.

"so can i ask everyone who wants rafa gone a question?

if he gets till the end of the season and IF we come 4th in the league, win the cl and the fa cup, should he still be fired?"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

No (Liverpool fans)

Call_me_al wrote: »

posted this on the liverpool thread thought i might as well post it here.

oh and i dont want any "thats never going to happen replies" etc just answer the question.

"so can i ask everyone who wants rafa gone a question?

if he gets till the end of the season and IF we come 4th in the league, win the cl and the fa cup, should he still be fired?"

I'd have to say yes for reasons stated above. It would just confirm me belief that he's a cup manager, and not a Premiership manager. I'm not entirely convinced that he even prioritises the Premiership.

Besides, if that weer to happen, next season would be the same as this.

lordgoat

Call_me_al wrote: »

"so can i ask everyone who wants rafa gone a question?

if he gets till the end of the season and IF we come 4th in the league, win the cl and the fa cup, should he still be fired?"

You're IF wasn't big enough.

I think most liverpool fans would be happy with that, and i think most arsenal, man u or chelsea fans will be happy about having won the league again.

That said do you honestly think liverpool based on current league and cup form will progress in the CL?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

No (Liverpool fans)

lordgoat wrote: »

You're IF wasn't big enough.

I think most liverpool fans would be happy with that, and i think most arsenal, man u or chelsea fans will be happy about having won the league again.

That said do you honestly think liverpool based on current league and cup form will progress in the CL?

Yes. Form goes out the window when Liverpool play CL. What would be interesting would be Rafa's appraoch and selection if Liverpool were drawn to play Man U....

scruff321

Yes

no way rafa should go great manager needs more resourses and backing by the board,although tbh i doubt he'l stay when hes having to put up with all the bull****

Brando_ie

I tried to vote but couldn't...... I hovered for some time over YES (Liverpool Fan) but was also tempted by the NO (Liverpool Fan).

Once managers are at a club for long enough to recruit a core element of players it becomes a more difficult proposition to simply sack them. Without actually having the first clue as to who we would try to get to replace Rafa and with a wealth of YES men out there to do our new owners bidding (after possibly an early transfer splurge bolstered by some players leaving) I would be far more fearful of where we would (and more likely WILL) be in the new two to three seasons.

Given the option of having say, Martin O'Neill at the helm I think I would prefer that Rafa left with the goodwill of the fans for what he has achieved and had this seasons off field problems not occurred, Rafa would enjoy far less support from the majority of Liverpool fans IMO.

Also, there is no way to know if any new owner would not come in and unsettle some of the few players who Rafa brought in who can at the minimum be useful squad players.

Liverpool FC has suffered as a result of a decade (or more) of poor management and I fear that entering into a management roundabout will not repair the long term decay we are in the midst of.

Getting a proper stadium and beginning to market the club to its full potential is paramount (and under our current regime, is that likely??) . Just look at how the main Liverpool thread has developed and reached 10k posts to see just how well supported they are. Sacking Rafa without a reasonable idea that his replacement will be able to bring some stability to the club would just be another smoke and mirrors reaction and may have little impact.

Although that said, having grown up in the 70's and 80's I cant abide what I see as Rafa's view that getting the ball wide and knocking in some crosses is just a Plan B, to be used only when chasing a game...... Sorry Rafa, but it can and has actually won leagues!! and god knows it can be enjoyable to watch.

Mr Alan

Yes

i hope this thread explodes and dies from the amount of complete and utter ****e in it.

rafa worse manager than moyes, redknapp and o'neill?! **** off

wat did Rafa do that Houllier didnt except for the CL?! **** off, what a ridiculous question

Liverpool are doing badly in the league so they'll get wellied in the CL?! league form made loads of difference in 2005 and last year didnt it. **** off

Rafa has bought ****e,Torres only good buy!? **** right off

Rafa cant cut it in a league situation?! his 2 la ligas might argue otherwise, **** off

this whole thread can **** off

I know this is a bit of a childish response, but seriously the amount of ****e being spouted in this thread, incl from some liverpool "fans" is beyond belief.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

i hope this thread explodes and dies from the amount of complete and utter ****e in it.

rafa worse manager than moyes, redknapp and o'neill?! **** off

wat did Rafa do that Houllier didnt except for the CL?! **** off, what a ridiculous question

Liverpool are doing badly in the league so they'll get wellied in the CL?! league form made loads of difference in 2005 and last year didnt it. **** off

Rafa has bought ****e,Torres only good buy!? **** right off

Rafa cant cut it in a league situation?! his 2 la ligas might argue otherwise, **** off

this whole thread can **** off

I know this is a bit of a childish response, but seriously the amount of ****e being spouted in this thread, incl from some liverpool "fans" is beyond belief.

Oooh, tetechy!

Never said he was't a league manager, I said he wasn't a PREMIERSHIP manager. Don't watch Spanish football often, but I get the impression that it's more conservative (ie Benitez-esque) than the Prem, but open to correction!

Rest, I agree with.

BaZmO*

Mr Alan wrote: »

I know this is a bit of a childish response, but seriously the amount of ****e being spouted in this thread, incl from some liverpool "fans" is beyond belief.

Then why don't you answer the questions about his abilities and achievements rather than telling everybody to **** off?

Chardee MacDennis

Yes

what i find hilarious is there are some people who say the La Liga is the best league in the world, yet Rafa isnt a good league manager!

hmm that doesnt quite make sense.

Mr Alan

Yes

because i've answered them all a thousand times before.

in three years, Rafa has finished above Arsenal twice in the league, won an FA cup, got to a Cerling cup final, won the Super cup, got the world club championships final, got to a Champions league final and also won the Champions league (the biggest club competition in world football). His record speaks for itself. give the man his five years.

PHB

No

Isn't this four years now? What do you expect to happen next year?

If he doesn't make 4th place, should he go? If he gets knocked out by Inter, should he go? 5 years is a cop out, if you lose to Inter and come 5th, I can't see how you can possibly defend him.

Chardee MacDennis

Yes

PHB wrote: »

Isn't this four years now? What do you expect to happen next year?

If he doesn't make 4th place, should he go? If he gets knocked out by Inter, should he go? 5 years is a cop out, if you lose to Inter and come 5th, I can't see how you can possibly defend him.

i have said it since houllier was here champions league qualification is a minimum requirement no matter how he gets it

kida

0 improvement in the league - probably gone backwards. He has shown NO idications that he has what it takes to challenge for the league never mind win it. He jus doesn't seem to get the premiership.

FFS you are the same number of points behind the leaders as Sunderland are behind you. Is that good enough.

Sooner or Later

No (Liverpool fans)

I would give him until the end of the season. If he can't manage fourth place then he should go. He has had four years to assemble a team capable of winning the league and we are still not even remotely challenging for it.

Mr Alan

Yes

kida wrote: »

0 improvement in the league - probably gone backwards.

Actually Houlliers average points per game were: 1.4
whereas rafas are: 1.8.

So again, you are wrong.

going through a slump, no doubt about it, but jesus, we dont sack managers when we go through slumps, 3rd last year in the league and the CL final.

Rafa stays.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafa stays.

hopefully

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

Actually Houlliers average points per game were: 1.4
whereas rafas are: 1.8.

So again, you are wrong.

going through a slump, no doubt about it, but jesus, we dont sack managers when we go through slumps, 3rd last year in the league and the CL final.

Rafa stays.

final league position

Chardee MacDennis

Yes

kida wrote: »

0 improvement in the league - probably gone backwards. He has shown NO idications that he has what it takes to challenge for the league never mind win it. He jus doesn't seem to get the premiership.

FFS you are the same number of points behind the leaders as Sunderland are behind you. Is that good enough.

kida wrote: »

final league position

its alright you can admit when you're wrong!

Benetiz has averaged 15.2 points more than houllier a year, sure we have definitely gone backwards.:rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

No (Liverpool fans)

Call_me_al wrote: »

its alright you can admit when you're wrong!

Benetiz has averaged 15.2 points more than houllier a year, sure we have definitely gone backwards.:rolleyes:

What's the average distance between the leaguer winners and Liverpool? It's not that we've gone backwards, we haven't, it's just that we HAVEN'T gone forwards.

Spud83

No

What should happen: Give him backing in the summer, allow him to bring in 3 top quality players, while shipping out some deadwood. It should then be made clear from the owners to him that he has one more year to challenge for the title or he will be gone. Therfore he has no excuses, he was given five years, given good backing for two summers, with fairly decent backing for the others, either he can do it or he cant. (based on liverpool finishing forth)

More likely to happen: Rafa is going to quit at the end of the season and blame it on the lack of support from the boardroom. He will blame the owners for (possibly) a poor season, say they are not able/willing to take the club forward, that he can not work in an enviroment in which he doesn't have the full support he needs. So bye bye Liverpool, Hello Madrid.

leninbenjamin

No

the way i see it, is that at this stage whether or not Rafa is capable of doing the job is irrelevant. the atmmosphere seemingly is really sour at the club, and no matter who is right or wrong the fact remains if the board can't work with the manager then they shouldn't be in business together.

I think Rafa should go,although preferably at the end of the season. With the factions in place it's clear Liverpool have gone as far as they can under the current regime. a new face will divert some of the bad press and hopefully focus attention back onto the pitch.

Mr Alan

Yes

well then we should concentrate on getting the board out.

lordgoat

Mr Alan wrote: »

well then we should concentrate on getting the board out.

once you get it out, use it to beat a performance out of that team will ya.

herbieflowers

Personally I felt that Rafa would be going at the end of this season anyway, there's no real point in ridding of him now. I don't think he's the man to steer Liverpool to the championship title.

joe123

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

well then we should concentrate on getting the board out.

lol good luck with that. :rolleyes:

If the american owners hadnt done what they did we would all be on rafas back. We have made NO improvement in the league and just about scraped into the champions league knock out stages.

Have you watched how bad liverpool have played this season? Im not just on about the games we lost and drew....some of the games we won we were really bad.

And when youve got a manager who signs the likes of voronin and constantly plays kuyt...

Dont be at yourself

Yes

If the American owners hadnt created the circus that they did, then I doubt that Liverpool would be in the position we were in. Our league form only nosedived when the Rafa vs. The Owners handbags started.

I would be seriously depressed if by next season we were still under control of the yanks, having sacked Rafa and installed another manager. (Who? Mourinho? O Neill? Lippi? No thanks!)

oobydooby

Yes

He's the cause of a lot of his difficulties. His stubborn rotation policy (policy was ok but his reaction to criticism wasn't), stubborn refusal to play Crouch (dropping him when he's in form, persisting with a goal-shy Kuyt), his petulant public outbursts at the board (yes, if he'd been backed more quickly to buy two or three more players we might have won another CL last year). And of course his crappy league form (bottling against the big guys and showing too much respect to the cannon fodder).

Having said that, he's still one of the top European managers. Look at our CL record - he's moved us from UEFA cup bigshots to the elite CL teams. All of a sudden we are in the same tier as Madrid and Milan. Look at Milan's league position. For his achievement in Istanbul alone he's got at least another two years backing from me.

Despite all the bluster about Pool fans wanting to win the league, if CL qualification did not depend on the English league position, there would be no crisis. Why should Benitez have to prove his worth by beating the likes of Wigan, West Ham, Reading each week? If Inter hop us (as they should do on paper given our performances against Havant...) then it's time to reconsider Benitez. We should measure Liverpool against the cream of Europe, not against West Ham.

chopperbyrne

No

oobydooby wrote: »

Despite all the bluster about Pool fans wanting to win the league, if CL qualification did not depend on the English league position, there would be no crisis. Why should Benitez have to prove his worth by beating the likes of Wigan, West Ham, Reading each week? If Inter hop us (as they should do on paper given our performances against Havant...) then it's time to reconsider Benitez. We should measure Liverpool against the cream of Europe, not against West Ham.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard.

If Liverpool don't consistently beat the likes of Wigan, West Ham and Reading then they won't be in the competition to be measured against the cream of Europe.

Manchester United, Arsenal and more recently chelsea are all better teams than Liverpool because they consistently beat the smaller teams and guarantee their place among Europes elite through league position.

When Liverpool won the Champions League a rule had to be changed to allow them play in it the next season because they weren't even good enough to finish in the top four.

Rafa is not the man for the job.

Dr Galen

Yes

maybe we've set the bar too high as Liverpool fans? There is nothing that gives us a god given right to win the title. The reality is that Liverpool entered into a period of major decline following Kenny D leaving.

When Rafa took over the team quite good, but certainly no where near league winning quality. Various holes existed all over the pitch with only Stevie G being close to a top class world renowned player. Since then, Rafa has vastly improved the spine of the team ( Reina, Agger/Carra, Masch/Gerard, Torres) along with adding decent levels of quality in the likes of Arbeloa and Benayoun. I'd certainly agree that players like Voronin aren't good enough to start, really only useful for coming on to save Torres/Crouch in the last 10 minutes of a 3-0 win.

Its the same old argument really, we could have bought Torres 4 years ago and used up pretty much all of the availible transfer funds at the time on that buy, but would it have made a major difference to our league position? I don't think so tbh. Adding big players like Torres every year over a short space of time (i.e 3 years) isn't going to make a vast difference if the rest of the team is sh1te. Yep, Rafa has his failings, and I've had my doubts about him recently, but I think give him a bit more time. As is posted above, back him in the summer, bring in more quality and see what happens next year.

Fans need to be more realistic though, we have to stop comparing ourselves to Chelsea and Utd whether we like it or not. We're not at there level, not yet anyways, on and off the field.

kida

nurse_baz wrote: »

maybe we've set the bar too high as Liverpool fans? There is nothing that gives us a god given right to win the title. The reality is that Liverpool entered into a period of major decline following Kenny D leaving.

When Rafa took over the team quite good, but certainly no where near league winning quality. Various holes existed all over the pitch with only Stevie G being close to a top class world renowned player. Since then, Rafa has vastly improved the spine of the team ( Reina, Agger/Carra, Masch/Gerard, Torres) along with adding decent levels of quality in the likes of Arbeloa and Benayoun. I'd certainly agree that players like Voronin aren't good enough to start, really only useful for coming on to save Torres/Crouch in the last 10 minutes of a 3-0 win.

Its the same old argument really, we could have bought Torres 4 years ago and used up pretty much all of the availible transfer funds at the time on that buy, but would it have made a major difference to our league position? I don't think so tbh. Adding big players like Torres every year over a short space of time (i.e 3 years) isn't going to make a vast difference if the rest of the team is sh1te. Yep, Rafa has his failings, and I've had my doubts about him recently, but I think give him a bit more time. As is posted above, back him in the summer, bring in more quality and see what happens next year.

Fans need to be more realistic though, we have to stop comparing ourselves to Chelsea and Utd whether we like it or not. We're not at there level, not yet anyways, on and off the field.

I think most fans accept that but they expected to be challenging for the title this season. Their current form is relegation form.

The last team you beat in the league was Derby
Before the reading game(8 dec) pool were 3 points behind Utd with a game in hand :eek:
Sunderland,Reading and Bolton have better home records
You have only won 10/23 games

Dr Galen

Yes

kida wrote: »

I think most fans accept that but they expected to be challenging for the title this season. Their current form is relegation form.

The last team you beat in the league was Derby
Before the reading game(8 dec) pool were 3 points behind Utd with a game in hand :eek:
Sunderland,Reading and Bolton have better home records
You have only won 10/23 games

I don't disagree with your post. Current form has awful. A major turn around is needed or we'll struggle to get fourth at this rate.

My points though are more in a general sense i think.

i also expected at least a stab at a title run but i can't say I'm surprised that we're not up there. As i see it, its the "BIG" three, then us as top of the chasing pile.

aidan24326

No

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Manchester United, Arsenal and more recently chelsea are all better teams than Liverpool because they consistently beat the smaller teams and guarantee their place among Europes elite through league position.

That's exactly it chopper. This is where Liverpool have not performed. We all know they can beat Barcelona or AC Milan in a cup tie but it's the bread and butter stuff week in week out that has separated the top 3. United in particular are relentless against the weaker teams, Arsenal and Chelsea don't drop many points against bottom half opposition either.

Liverpool drew at home to Wigan, drew with Boro, lost at Reading, needed a scrambled late winner to beat Derby etc. Not good enough for all the money that's been shelled out. I'm not a Liverpool fan, in fact I delight in seeing them lose truth be told, but I do think Rafa's time is up. Some of the players he's brought in I wouldn't consider to be good enough to wear that jersey, and this is coming from a United fan. Pennant and Benayoun spring to mind, decent players but they'll hardly be remembered as Anfield greats in all fairness. Same goes for Kuyt who has been a flop imo, and these players didn't come cheap.

I'd possibly agree with poster above that he could maybe be given one more season (add a player or two in Summer) with a consistent challenge for the title as an absolute must.

x in the city

Liverpool are a sham at the moment, I am a blue nose but this is the worst I have seen them for a long time, they havent won in the prem since boxing day ffs.
Everton are far better than them at the moment, we are 4th on merit and looking good.

I would not be too surprised if sunderland beat them tomorrow they are that bad right now.

herbieflowers

aidan24326 wrote: »

That's exactly it chopper. This is where Liverpool have not performed. We all know they can beat Barcelona or AC Milan in a cup tie but it's the bread and butter stuff week in week out that has separated the top 3. United in particular are relentless against the weaker teams, Arsenal and Chelsea don't drop many points against bottom half opposition either.

Liverpool drew at home to Wigan, drew with Boro, lost at Reading, needed a scrambled late winner to beat Derby etc. Not good enough for all the money that's been shelled out. I'm not a Liverpool fan, in fact I delight in seeing them lose truth be told, but I do think Rafa's time is up. Some of the players he's brought in I wouldn't consider to be good enough to wear that jersey, and this is coming from a United fan. Pennant and Benayoun spring to mind, decent players but they'll hardly be remembered as Anfield greats in all fairness. Same goes for Kuyt who has been a flop imo, and these players didn't come cheap.

I'd possibly agree with poster above that he could maybe be given one more season (add a player or two in Summer) with a consistent challenge for the title as an absolute must.

I agree but his transfer policy...I mean you make a judgement call as a manger, you sign the players you think best suit your system and philosophy, I don't think Benitez is the kind of maanger who can get the best out the players he signs

Mr Alan

Yes

Should Rafa be sacked?

Answer: No.

herbieflowers

No. Not yey anyway, wait till the end of the season

Mr Alan

Yes

Should Rafa be sacked at the end of the season?

Answer: No.

kryogen

Mr Alan wrote: »

Should Rafa be sacked?

Answer: No.

well, thats it ladies and gents, God on all rafa and liverpool matters has spoken, no more need for discussion

im gonna give you a :rolleyes::rolleyes: for that one al;)

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

Should Rafa be sacked at the end of the season?

Answer: No.

if yis dont qualify for the champions league?

Nailz

No

As a United fan I think if Liverpool want to be more successful, then yes he should go... so then thats what voted, with honesty. But.... as I am a rival supporter, I want him to stay!

BaZmO*

Helix wrote: »

if yis dont qualify for the champions league?

What's this "if" business?

herbieflowers

Mr Alan wrote: »

Should Rafa be sacked at the end of the season?

Answer: No.

No. After the end of the season, then he should be sacked