Should Rafa go?

Mr Alan

Yes

kryogen wrote: »

well, thats it ladies and gents, God on all rafa and liverpool matters has spoken, no more need for discussion

im gonna give you a :rolleyes::rolleyes: for that one al;)

Wat?!:)

the vast vast majority of proper liverpool fans dont want Rafa to go. therefore, he should not go!? So i am right

a load of manc/arsenal/everton etc etc fans telling him how he should this and do that using their vast knowledge of football gathered from years of watching Sky in the pub and playing Championship manager through the night does not make them the ultimate authority on matters concerning Liverpool

Helix wrote: »

if yis dont qualify for the champions league?

Nah, i'd still give him his fifth season

Nailz

No

BaZmO* wrote: »

What's this "if" business?

So you're so sure you will??? :rolleyes:

BaZmO*

Nailz wrote: »

So you're so sure you will??? :rolleyes:

What? I'm sure that I'll qualify for the CL?

Nailz

No

Are you so sure Liverpool will qualify for it?

Peyton Manning

I dont think it says much for your ambitions if you would keep him at the club without Champions League qualification.

Mental Mickey

No (Liverpool fans)

If Liverpool fail to finish in the top four, get knocked out of the Champions League, and(God forbid) Everton finish ahead of us this season, then, yes he should go.

Give him until the end of this season.

BaZmO*

Nailz wrote: »

Are you so sure Liverpool will qualify for it?

I'm a Utd. supporter. I was being facetious when I said "if"

Mr Alan

Yes

LOL-i didnt say indefinately without champions league qualification....

just that this year if we didnt qualify, i'd stick with him for another year

kryogen

lol are you doubting my championship and football manager abilitys??? i am in the hall of fame ill have you know!!!!

i voted no, that i dont want rafa gone, i enjoy playing the pool with him in charge tbh and i see the pool as less of a threat due to his consistency problems, this is my honest opinion, i think benitez is a very good manager, but i dont think he instills the consistency needed to win this league.... i know he has won the spanish league but the dynamics of that league are very very different

i dont think he is the man to lead you to the title, and for that reason alone i dont want him sacked...

Mental Mickey

No (Liverpool fans)

kryogen wrote: »

lol are you doubting my championship and football manager abilitys??? i am in the hall of fame ill have you know!!!!

i voted no, that i dont want rafa gone, i enjoy playing the pool with him in charge tbh and i see the pool as less of a threat due to his consistency problems, this is my honest opinion, i think benitez is a very good manager, but i dont think he instills the consistency needed to win this league.... i know he has won the spanish league but the dynamics of that league are very very different

i dont think he is the man to lead you to the title, and for that reason alone i dont want him sacked...[/QUOTE]

Cheeky f**ker. Are you a MANC, Arsenal, or Chelski supporter???

Dubit10

Yes

Archimedes wrote: »

I dont think it says much for your ambitions if you would keep him at the club without Champions League qualification.

Emmm.Rafa 2 champs league finals in 3 years.....Fergie 1 in 20 odd years. Doesnt say much for your clubs ambitions when you keep a manager in charge of the worlds richest club for that long with such a poor record in europe.Sure he's untouchable now isnt he;)

d22ontour

Mr Alan wrote: »

Wat?!:)

the vast vast majority of proper liverpool fans dont want Rafa to go. therefore, he should not go!? So i am right

a load of manc/arsenal/everton etc etc fans telling him how he should this and do that using their vast knowledge of football gathered from years of watching Sky in the pub and playing Championship manager through the night does not make them the ultimate authority on matters concerning Liverpool

Proper Liverpool fans ?
Watching sky in the pub ?

So seeing as you thought you would actually challenge for the title 'this season' and then when that became a no-brainer came to the thought of finishing 5-8 points behind the eventual winners this season 'but are now 17 points behind in January' leads me to ask which of the above you fall into ? Some Pool fans don't think he is good enough to win the league and you ridicule them, some 'almost all other' fans don't think he can win you the league and you ridicule them ? So only proper Liverpool fans know he will win the league wait for it , we have heard it before ,NEXT YEAR ? I think the realistic pool fans offer a better opinion .

:rolleyes:

astrofool

Just out of interest, Mr. Alan, what would need to happen for you to say Benitez should go? What is the minimum target for next year for him to be able to stay.

I think he's gone in the summer regardless, should he go? probably not until there is a ready made replacement for him, but given what the expectations are at Liverpool, he probably should, it doesn't look like he'll ever deliver on this front.

If Liverpool drop out of 4th place contention mathematically near the end of the season, or make it safe, he might go at that stage rather then drag it out.

colly10

Think it's too early to say, I think it should be decided on at the end of the season. The form at the moment is very poor and I think he is responsible for that, we have decent players and it's up to him to get the best out of them.
If the form improves and we close the gap to Chelsea (or 3rd place) then we should give him another season, otherwise it's time for him to go.
We were actually playing good football at the begining of the season (the Chelsea game comes to mind, not just the fact that we deserved to win but the football was good quality). Now were not playing good passing football and we seem to lack the imagination to cut teams open.

kryogen

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Cheeky f**ker. Are you a MANC, Arsenal, or Chelski supporter???

i am neither a man c, arse, or celski fan, i would have thought it was obvious who i support by now?

jesus_thats_gre

Yes

astrofool wrote: »

Just out of interest, Mr. Alan, what would need to happen for you to say Benitez should go? What is the minimum target for next year for him to be able to stay.

This has been flogged to death at this stage but for one last time.. Liverpool are badly in need of 2 world class wingers and 1 world class striker. If Rafa is given the funds to sign these 3 players in the summer, I expect Liverpool to genuinely challenge for the league with 2 or 3 games being the difference. If having signed these players, and assumung the squad is not ravaged with injuries for the majority of thr season, we have another season of 65 to 70 points, I would have to call Rafa's ability to win the PL into question.

dc69

Yes

we can see now that he doesnt really roatate gerrard,mashc,torres,cara,reina.I can see a trend if he gets 2 more quality players that they wont be rotated either and lets not forget babel wasnt cheap either,so i can see him playing up front.
If next season he gets two new quality players and i cant see them being defenders,we may do well in the league,I think they will give him money this summer and after that if he doesnt improove then fire him but whats they point to keep changing managers,it doeas no one any good and half the reason people dont rate him is because of his rotating

sprinkles

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

This has been flogged to death at this stage but for one last time.. Liverpool are badly in need of 2 world class wingers and 1 world class striker. If Rafa is given the funds to sign these 3 players in the summer, I expect Liverpool to genuinely challenge for the league with 2 or 3 games being the difference. If having signed these players, and assumung the squad is not ravaged with injuries for the majority of thr season, we have another season of 65 to 70 points, I would have to call Rafa's ability to win the PL into question.

but is it not the fact that Rafa had brought in wingers who are not world class and have failed to live up the the standard that Liverpool fans expect - Pennant, Benayoun(sp) and Babel. Then look at the front 2 - Torres - undeniable genius and a pool legend in the making but look who else were brought in - Kuyt - average at best, Voronin - hasn't impressed me at all so far.

If you took the combined money for these and put them towards 2 good wingers I'm sure you would have got what you're looking for. That said though it would leave you short of cover so perhaps his hands are being tied somewhat but still there are some very average players hanging around Anfield at the minute (and for the last 15 years). He needs a squad clearout imo and the cash to bring in 2 - 3 top class players.

LuckyLloyd

Yes

sprinkles wrote: »

but is it not the fact that Rafa had brought in wingers who are not world class and have failed to live up the the standard that Liverpool fans expect - Pennant, Benayoun(sp) and Babel. Then look at the front 2 - Torres - undeniable genius and a pool legend in the making but look who else were brought in - Kuyt - average at best, Voronin - hasn't impressed me at all so far.

If you took the combined money for these and put them towards 2 good wingers I'm sure you would have got what you're looking for. That said though it would leave you short of cover so perhaps his hands are being tied somewhat but still there are some very average players hanging around Anfield at the minute (and for the last 15 years). He needs a squad clearout imo and the cash to bring in 2 - 3 top class players.

Voronin cost nothing. Yossi has been well worth what was paid for him. Babel has bags of potential.

Pennant is Pennant. He's not bad to have around the squad. Kuyt is in a slump - but it wasn't too long ago that everyone was delighted with him.

jesus_thats_gre

Yes

Jesus ****, damn you PHB for creating another thread when stuff like his post has been dealt with a million ****ing times in the Liverpool thread..

sprinkles wrote: »

but is it not the fact that Rafa had brought in wingers who are not world class and have failed to live up the the standard that Liverpool fans expect - Pennant, Benayoun(sp) and Babel.

Pennant is the only true winger on that list and is more than up to the task of being the squad backup for a world class winger.. 1 of the 3 players I said that we need.

Babel is not a winger. Will likely be employed in the front line of a 4-3-3. Benayoun is not a winger either. Saying that, they have scored 17 goal between them this season.

sprinkles wrote: »

Then look at the front 2 - Torres - undeniable genius and a pool legend in the making but look who else were brought in - Kuyt - average at best, Voronin - hasn't impressed me at all so far.

Torres is the perfect example of the calibre of player that Rafa wants to buy when he is given the funds to go after the players that he wants. Not the players that he has to make do with due to relatively limited funds.

Kuyt scored 17 goals in his first season. This season he has scored 7 goals but has been a massive disappointment. He is severely off form or has complete lost it. He needs to be dropped. Voronin was a free. He seems to get more criticism the less he plays. Has started 10 games this season in the PL and scored 3. One of these two will likely leave at the end of the season and be replaced by the 2nd of the 3 players that we need.

sprinkles wrote: »

If you took the combined money for these and put them towards 2 good wingers I'm sure you would have got what you're looking for. That said though it would leave you short of cover so perhaps his hands are being tied somewhat but still there are some very average players hanging around Anfield at the minute (and for the last 15 years). He needs a squad clearout imo and the cash to bring in 2 - 3 top class players.

[/QUOTE]

You answered your own question... I do not agree that he needs a clearout..
If I was to list players that I feel is the right time to sell them, it would be Kuyt/Voronin (1 of these 2 should be sold and replaced with genuine class), Riise (too wasteful in recent months), Kewell (doesn't seem to have any desire anymore and should be replaced with genuine class) and maybe Hypia (now that we have got a replacement).

Saying that about Kewell however, having him as backup to the 3rd of the 3 players we need would also suffice.

cournioni

No

I really can't think of a scenario where he CAN stay at the club while the current owners are there. Fair play to him for sticking at it but I don't see how anyone can expect him to perform with all of the rubbish that has been going on in the background at Liverpool.

Chardee MacDennis

Yes

can people stop asking the same questions over and over and go read through the f***ing thread. i'm sure you'll find the answers to your question.

you all sound like the same person with Alzheimer's...

ButcherOfNog

Yes

I think he'll go at the end of the season, lots of clubs will want him and know the situation hes been put in, and they'll be more than willing to pay compo to get him.

Galvasean

No

Yes, but not until the season is finished.

Helix

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

lots of clubs will... know the situation hes been put in

what situation is that? that hes been given 4 years and a hell of a lot of a money to ultimately build a team who are 17 points off the top (assuming they win today) and struggling for the final CL place in a season their fans were predicting confidently that theyd put up a real fight for the title?

grames_bond

No

yes he should go....and manage ireland!! (lets start another rumour)

Mental Mickey

No (Liverpool fans)

grames_bond wrote: »

yes he should go....and manage ireland!! (lets start another rumour)

Oh GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWD, no.:(

jesus_thats_gre

Yes

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Oh GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWD, no.:(

lol, what now, you wouldn't want a Benitez in the Ireland job? It is never gonna happen but jesus, you are loosing credibility by the second.

Peyton Manning

Could you imagine the Spanish/Irish players he'd get us though?

Fernand O'Torres, Davey Silva, Jackeen etc.

Nailz

No

It's a shame Deco isn't Spanish because I would have definatly added onto that last post... CARLOS QUERIOS!!!

cson

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

This has been flogged to death at this stage but for one last time.. Liverpool are badly in need of 2 world class wingers and 1 world class striker. If Rafa is given the funds to sign these 3 players in the summer, I expect Liverpool to genuinely challenge for the league with 2 or 3 games being the difference. If having signed these players, and assumung the squad is not ravaged with injuries for the majority of thr season, we have another season of 65 to 70 points, I would have to call Rafa's ability to win the PL into question.

I think one winger would do and another striker is definitely needed. Rafa Quaresma would definitely fit the winger bill (It would have been interesting to see how Simao would have fared out if ye'd got him the few years back) and I think that David Villa would link up well with Torres. Even, dare I say it, Robbie Keane would be good with Torres.

I think the defence is neglected a bit;
Sami Hyypia
J.A. Riise
Dan Agger
Jamie Carragher
Fabio Aurelio
Alvaro Arbeloa
Martin Skrtel
Steve Finnan

Hyypia is definitely on his way out, to be fair he gave great service. Benitez seemingly doesn't rate Riise anymore (And again, thats with good reason, he's been pretty poor). Finnan is getting on in years too, he's 32 at this stage, maybe 2, max 3 more seasons left in him. Jamie Carragher hasn't been up to his usual standards this season (He got away with another penalty claim today). Dan Agger is the one shining bit of hope, great potential but you have to hope he stays fit and avoids a Woodgate type career. Aurelio and Arbeloa have been decent this year and the new boy needs some time. Basically what I'm saying is the pack needs a reshuffle defensively.

Signing Macherano permanently was a big boost too. A look at the league table and specifically the draws column will tell you a lot though. Liverpool have the most draws in the Premiership this year (tied with Fulham) which kinda points to a lack of creativity.

Anyway, sure what do I know, I'm only an Arsenal fan and your all prolly sick to death of everyone else waxing lyrical about what needs doing.

Mr Alan

Yes

astrofool wrote: »

Just out of interest, Mr. Alan, what would need to happen for you to say Benitez should go? What is the minimum target for next year for him to be able to stay.

If, at the end of next season we were still 20 points behind the league winner and, (this part is really important) there was an ideal canditate available, i would "understand" why people would be calling for him to get the sack and couldnt really argue. (although i may still be calling for him to stay )

Mr Alan

Yes

Benitez:

2002: Champions of Spain
2004: Champions of Spain & UEFA Cup
2005: Champions of Europe
2006: FA Cup Winners
2007: European Cup Final

Wenger:

2002: Premier League & FA Cup
2003: FA Cup
2004: Premier League
2005: FA Cup
2006: European Cup Final

cson

Is that a response to my post?!

You're missing the point there, you can't compare - Arsene Wenger has the complete and unequivocal backing of all at Arsenal. He's also one of only 4 managers to have won the Premiership in its current guise. And I know you'll counter this with claims of how he's never won the Champions League but I'm pretty sure if you offered Liverpool fans the choice of Champions League or Premiership at this moment in time, you can be sure what choice 90% of them would make.

Mr Alan

Yes

no cson, sorry i know it probably looks like that, but it genuinely wasnt, just something i seen on another forum and though relevant to this.

i agree with a lot of your post.

DSB

No

Rafa's record at Valencia is irrelevant. The differences between the Spanish league and the English are glaringly obvious.

cson

DSB wrote: »

Rafa's record at Valencia is irrelevant. The differences between the Spanish league and the English are glaringly obvious.

Yer, that's why I said you couldn't compare.

Mr Alan

Yes

Rafas record at Valencia has no bearing!? of course it does, it helps show his ability as a manager.
fact is, if Rafa was sacked/left Liverpool, he'd walk into almost any club, clubs know how good he is.

DSB

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafas record at Valencia has no bearing!? of course it does, it helps show his ability as a manager.
fact is, if Rafa was sacked/left Liverpool, he'd walk into almost any club, clubs know how good he is.

His record at Valencia helped him get the Liverpool job, once there he should be judged on his Liverpool record alone.

Mr Alan

Yes

surely if that is the logic you are applying, he can only be judged on his performance as Liverpool manager at the end of his tenure in that case? or at least at the end of his initial 5 years?

as opposed to part way through? for example, last few years arsenal have looked a million miles away from winning the league, look at em now, they are flying, from 4th to 1st in 1 season (possibly).

even rafas record while at Liverpool:
2005:Champions League,CC final
2006:FA Cup,ahead of arsenal in league,Super Cup
2007:CL Final, ahead of arseanl in league

so his record since his arrival does not merit him gettin the sack, we have no god given right to win the league-anyone who expected that straight away was deluded

Helix

alan you can throw out all these past acomplishments as much as you like, but if they were to be taken as an absolute, liverpool wouldnt be 17 points off the top of the league with the squad they have would they?

you really have to realise one of these days that supporting a team doesnt mean blindly defending everything to do with the club, making excuses, and failing to level critisism when things arent being done correctly

his record prior to this season should NOT make him immune to the fallout of this seasons failures so far. if united were having the season liverpool are having, ferguson would be staring at the sack and i dont think thered be too many united fans whod have any complaints about that. past accomplishments do not, and never have meant future success

if liverpool manage to not qualify for the champions league, do you think theres going to be money there for benitez to buy a couple of world class wingers and a world class striker? no chance. you dont seem to quite grasp the potential disaster a finish outside the top 4 could cause for liverpool in the present climate

invincibleirish

Helix wrote: »

you dont seem to quite grasp the potential disaster a finish outside the top 4 could cause for liverpool in the present climate

Leeds anyone?

At least with the others chasing CL qualification, namely Villa, Everton,Blackburn and Portsmouth, they have not budgeted the 30/40 million Euro that Liverpool probably have by assuming they will qualify. If Villa/Everton/Portsmouth qualify for the CL it will be a massive bonus, If Liverpool dont qualify then it will leave a massive dent in their finances, no more Torres for 26 millionif thats the case!

PHB

No

Past accomplishments mean very little imo, especially if its in another league. Just like Kuyt broke all the scoring records in Holland, doesn't mean hes gona do it here. Its the same for a mangegr. England is a different style of game, and its one Rafa can't seem to crack. Thats why the team hes put together still does well in Europe (where Rafa understands the football) but not in England (where he doesnt)

I'm not saying if he went to Valencia next season, he wouldn't be challenging in the next 2-3 years, but Liverpool is a different club in a different league

Skud

I thought rafa should leave or seriously reconsider stuff in general the second he put out a weakend team vs portsmouth away... they drew but portsmouth should have won, kanu missed a peanalty. Showed naivety on his part. That was early septemeber. I'm not a liverpool fan but thought liverpool would do well this year.

Unearthly

Helix wrote: »

if united were having the season liverpool are having, ferguson would be staring at the sack and i dont think thered be too many united fans whod have any complaints about that. past accomplishments do not, and never have meant future success

I disagree.

In the years 2003-2006 we were many points from the champions at times but the majority stuck by him. Reaping the awards now.

empirix

Rafa out Mourinho in. The fact is his league record is muck, and to be honest we got lucky winning the european cup, mediocre manager, carra on the right Finnan on the left, Lucas wtf absolute donkey. Thanks Rafa but you gotz to go

Sqaull20

No

empirix wrote: »

.Lucas wtf absolute donkey. Thanks Rafa but you gotz to go

lol he's the U20's brazilian captain...

He's still settling in....Even the best players struggle to find any form when they're only getting occassional games,it can't be easy for him..
The guy might not have settled in as quickly as Manurre's Anderson, but that was hardly expected?

Hes not a wide player but was asked to do a job out there and obviously didnt play well, at arsenal or man u he would have done fine in that position as the midfielders/wing backs they have dont just give you the ball and expect you to morph into Kaka...Being a winger at the Pool is like being a keeper at the toon...


If it is true that Gerrard is refusing to play wide its very disapointing,Rafa needs to sort that out and Carragher too, who isnt all that...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/article-3263672-details/Henry+inspiration+for+Gray/article.do

Mr Alan

Yes

empirix wrote: »

Rafa out Mourinho in. The fact is his league record is muck, and to be honest we got lucky winning the european cup, mediocre manager, carra on the right Finnan on the left, Lucas wtf absolute donkey. Thanks Rafa but you gotz to go

oh my god

got lucky winning the CL? and also lucky getting to the final last year-yea? Finished ahead of Arsenal last 2 seasons in the league, should Arsene have been sacked? no, the most successful clubs are the ones that persevere with a manager while they are building something. Ferguson wasnt sacked in his first 7 years with the mancs. Wenger wasnt even nearly sacked over the last couple of years when they were winning nothing, and rightly so.

and lucas looks like an excellent little player. i dispair about some of our fans, i really do

astrofool

Unearthly wrote: »

I disagree.

In the years 2003-2006 we were many points from the champions at times but the majority stuck by him. Reaping the awards now.

During that time, United were always the team challenging the eventual champions, looking back at points differences gets skewed by the fact that when the league is won, the teams take the foot off the gas.

Liverpool, at best, had a chance to sneak second under the above circumstances, and have/are spending 2 of the last 4 seasons trying to get into 4th place.

Rafa would already be gone if it weren't for 45 minutes in May 2005.

Helix

Unearthly wrote: »

I disagree.

In the years 2003-2006 we were many points from the champions at times but the majority stuck by him. Reaping the awards now.

may have been behind the champions, but yis were never once bouncing between 4th and 7th