Should Rafa go?

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

Finished ahead of Arsenal last 2 seasons in the league

yeah but if everton finish 4th this season theyll have finished ahead of liverpool twice in the last 4 years

youre still not realising the damage not finishing in the top 4 will do to liverpool

itll almost certainly rule yis out of winning the league for another 5 years anyway

Unearthly

Helix wrote: »

may have been behind the champions, but yis were never once bouncing between 4th and 7th

Yeah but there used to be a huge gap between 1st and 2nd. Arsenal when they went unbeaten walked to the title, and Chelsea had their titles won by Christmas.

Basically I'm at the point where I would never ask for Fergie to be sacked, no matter what happened. I just couldn't.

Helix

yeah but thats not the point im getting at, united were never struggling to qualify for the champions league

Dubit10

Yes

Unearthly wrote: »

I disagree.

In the years 2003-2006 we were many points from the champions at times but the majority stuck by him. Reaping the awards now.

I couldnt agree more.Fergie has underachieved with Unilted in europe so much it's unbelievable that he is still in the job tbh.Fergie is the Prem league master but is the champs league chump.

jesus_thats_gre

Yes

cson wrote: »

I think the defence is neglected a bit;
Sami Hyypia
J.A. Riise
Dan Agger
Jamie Carragher
Fabio Aurelio
Alvaro Arbeloa
Martin Skrtel
Steve Finnan

Hyypia is definitely on his way out, to be fair he gave great service. Benitez seemingly doesn't rate Riise anymore (And again, thats with good reason, he's been pretty poor). Finnan is getting on in years too, he's 32 at this stage, maybe 2, max 3 more seasons left in him. Jamie Carragher hasn't been up to his usual standards this season (He got away with another penalty claim today). Dan Agger is the one shining bit of hope, great potential but you have to hope he stays fit and avoids a Woodgate type career. Aurelio and Arbeloa have been decent this year and the new boy needs some time. Basically what I'm saying is the pack needs a reshuffle defensively.

There is no doubt that Hypia is on his way out due to age etc. However, he has proved that he is still capable of performing at the highest level. Ideally, I would like him replaced with a younger model. Saying that though, who would you prefer as backup in the centre of defence - Senderos or Wes Brown?

Finnan is certainly getting on in years but he is still more than up to the job. A long term replacement is already is place (Arbeloa).

There is no doubting that Carra has has a poor enough season but it is not a worry for me. Things will return to normal soon enough.

Riise seems to be on his way out. Will be interesting to see who he takes in. Aurellio is an average player that can do a job but his injury problems will prevent him frm ever geuniely establishing himself.

Skrtel is an unknown quantity. He looked fairly rough on his debut but looked alot better yesterday I thought. I am extremely confident that Agger is more than up to the task and really do hope that he recovers from injury very soon.

Things certainly aren't perfect in the defence but it is still an extremely effective unit.

cson wrote: »

Signing Macherano permanently was a big boost too. A look at the league table and specifically the draws column will tell you a lot though. Liverpool have the most draws in the Premiership this year (tied with Fulham) which kinda points to a lack of creativity.

Creativity and being unable to put chances away are defo the root cause of our problems.

cson wrote: »

Anyway, sure what do I know, I'm only an Arsenal fan and your all prolly sick to death of everyone else waxing lyrical about what needs doing.

Certainly am sick to death of hearing the same thing over and over but I have absolutely no problem when someone makes a post like you have. Liverpool are 2 or 3 pieces of a 25 piece jigsaw away from being where they want to me.

empirix

Mr Alan wrote: »

oh my god

got lucky winning the CL? and also lucky getting to the final last year-yea? Finished ahead of Arsenal last 2 seasons in the league, should Arsene have been sacked? no, the most successful clubs are the ones that persevere with a manager while they are building something. Ferguson wasnt sacked in his first 7 years with the mancs. Wenger wasnt even nearly sacked over the last couple of years when they were winning nothing, and rightly so.

and lucas looks like an excellent little player. i dispair about some of our fans, i really do

Mate - if you think we deserved to win the CL you must be blind, we improved last year to get to the final but again i feel we simply did not deserve it, you could say we scraped through, a brilliant performace in Barcelona over shadowed this fact.
Yoiur living in the past - nearly 20 years since the league has come to Anfield 20 YEARS. Benitez simply hasnt delivered, we have never been up there, i have never got that excited feeling that we were actually competing for the title, you probably did because of your love for the club is blinding the harsh reality. Benitez is also damaging players confidence, Riise, Crouch and now Carragher and finnan, putting Carragher on the right was just as good as telling him his finished as a centre half and Finnan on the left, god knows what he must be thinking. He drops Benayoun(or however you spell it), the man is playing well and is full of confidence and he drops Babel, Like wtf. Benitez clearly has issues and is quite stubborn for example playing Zenden in the CL final, i really think the man is blind sometimes.

What we need is Mourinho or even Martin IO'Neill.

Benitez has done some good work but its time to take it up to the next level, which in my opinion is the summit, a good foundation is there now and its time to act fast to stop the team from crumbling, we need some wise, intelligent and quality buys and personally i think Mourinho is the man to do this

Dubai in!

Mental Mickey

No (Liverpool fans)

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

lol, what now, you wouldn't want a Benitez in the Ireland job? It is never gonna happen but jesus, you are loosing credibility by the second.

Huh? No, I would NOT want him as Ireland manager. He's ultra negative for f**ks sake. We need someone who can get the team playing decent football. Hopefully Trapattoni will introduce good football to the team........?

Unearthly

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Huh? No, I would NOT want him as Ireland manager. He's ultra negative for f**ks sake. We need someone who can get the team playing decent football. Hopefully Trapattoni will introduce good football to the team........?

No we need a manager to get results. We are not brazil so don't have the players to play attacking flowing football.

Trapattoni is defensive I believe.

jesus_thats_gre

Yes

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Huh? No, I would NOT want him as Ireland manager. He's ultra negative for f**ks sake. We need someone who can get the team playing decent football. Hopefully Trapattoni will introduce good football to the team........?

Christ, you have managed to convince yourself of quite a bit haven't you.




I laugh when people complain about the style of play that Rafa likes to play and then suggest that Mourinhio is the answer to our problems.

Rafa and Jose are cut out of the same block. They play the exact same type of football and rate the exact same players. Half the players that Rafa has been rumoured to have bid for, Jose bidded for the same players - SWP, Simao, Villa, Malouda and Joaquinn to name but a few. The only thing that seperates the two is a league title that was bought.

Mental Mickey

No (Liverpool fans)

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Christ, you have managed to convince yourself of quite a bit haven't you.




I laugh when people complain about the style of play that Rafa likes to play and then suggest that Mourinhio is the answer to our problems.

Rafa and Jose are cut out of the same block. They play the exact same type of football and rate the exact same players. Half the players that Rafa has been rumoured to have bid for, Jose bidded for the same players - SWP, Simao, Villa, Malouda and Joaquinn to name but a few. The only thing that seperates the two is a league title that was bought.

Hang on a sec. I NEVER said that Jose Mourinho should be the next Ireland manager. Don't know where you got that from??

jesus_thats_gre

Yes

I didn't say you did.. Hence the





gap.

Helix

to the pool fans who voted no, should he still stay?

Melion

Yes

Yes he should still stay

grames_bond

No

after todays match people will be calling for his head, but lets put it this way, who else is there?!

Mr Alan

Yes

if there was an outstanding canditate for the job, i think people would give it more consideration. as it is, he should get until the end of NEXT season.

KdjaCL

Lippi and Jose available.


kdjac

grames_bond

No

KdjaCL wrote: »

Lippi and Jose available.


kdjac

as part of joses contract buy out clause, i heard that they put in a condition that he couldnt manage any rival premiership team, so liverpool is a no go!

Racing Flat

If the FAI can get Jovanni Trapatawny...

Trampas

No (Liverpool fans)

I voted go now.

So I am going +++ now

I wouldn't go jose mad.

He will want millions and millions

Nobody out there?

The right person is always available.

Money talks.

I am available

Mr Alan

Yes

think there is a time limit on how long Jose cant manage in the PL?

but would people want him?seriously...he was hardly doing wonders at Chelsea in his last year with all the resources in the world, and i wouldnt view him as having the class to be associated with Liverpool tbh.

Isnt Lippi a bit old?

OPENROAD

Rafa needs time imo, at least one or two more seasons imo.

Mr Alan

Yes

i agree.

Trampas

No (Liverpool fans)

OPENROAD wrote: »

Rafa needs time imo, at least one or two more seasons imo.

So he needs 5 years to get where?

OPENROAD

Trampas wrote: »

So he needs 5 years to get where?

5th in the Premiership

Mr Alan

Yes

its funny how people always moan about how football has changed so much, how fans are so fickle, managers dont get time etc etc....

now at the start of the season, did many or any Liverpool fans want Rafa to get the sack? i doubt it. but yet in the space of a few months there has been a huge change in peoples opinions.granted this season is not going well. but he should be at least given next season.

he always said he wanted five years to get it right. i've said this a thousand times. but i think that winning in Istanbul and Cardiff should have bought him his five years.

Racing Flat

Mr Alan wrote: »

now at the start of the season, did many or any Liverpool fans want Rafa to get the sack? i doubt it. but yet in the space of a few months there has been a huge change in peoples opinions.granted this season is not going well. but he should be at least given next season.

he always said he wanted five years to get it right. i've said this a thousand times. but i think that winning in Istanbul and Cardiff should have bought him his five years.

Definitely didn't want him to get the sack at start of year - exact opposite, hoped that we'd be more of a presence in the league this year - ie improve. As we haven't, in the 4th year, I want him gone. Be different if it was the first, second or even third year.

And surely to get things right in 5 years you have to be gradually making progress throughout that time, which peaks at 5 years, not take one step forward 2 steps back. As the 4th year may potentially be the worst year, I can't see how we can 'get it right' in the 5th year.

Winning in Istanbul and Cardiff should definitely buy time, but progress should be made in that time, and it's not. I really like Rafa, but this is just awful. I'd truly love if it does turn around and he delivers a League next year, I just can't see it. Thereofre I'd like to start again now rather than in another year.

Mr Alan

Yes

Arsenal struggled for fourth couple of years ago and finished 4th last year, look at em now! dont think nescessarily we have to increase our points tally etc etc to think that we have any chance next year, think if Alonso could improve his form drastically, Babel become more adapted to the prem, same for Lucas, get a couple of decent new players in the window, we may still be able to challenge next year. thats why i think its important that Rafa gets his 5th year.

Drag00n79

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

Arsenal struggled for fourth couple of years ago and finished 4th last year, look at em now! dont think nescessarily we have to increase our points tally etc etc to think that we have any chance next year, think if Alonso could improve his form drastically, Babel become more adapted to the prem, same for Lucas, get a couple of decent new players in the window, we may still be able to challenge next year. thats why i think its important that Rafa gets his 5th year.

You can't compare us with Arsenal. Their manager is far more astute when it come to buying youngsters than Rafa or any other Prem manager come to that. It pains me to say it but I cannot see us ever winning the Premiership under Rafa. And if he cannot bring that nothing else counts imo.

Mr Alan

Yes

Wenger has had how long to accrue these youngsters? and btw youngsters that have yet to ever win a trophy.

leninbenjamin

No

Shamrok wrote: »

It pains me to say it but I cannot see us ever winning the Premiership under Rafa. And if he cannot bring that nothing else counts imo.

even though i'm not a fan, i'd agree with this.

any decision on Rafa's future should be made at the end of the season and not now, but at the rate he's gone so far, progress is very slow... his tactics and rotation policies are baffling at times, his performance in the transfer market has been frankly woeful and i don't think he gets the best out of the players he has... I dont think he can bring 'pool much further. and with the friction that already exists between him and the board and the obvious effect it's having on the team, you have to think what's the point... his chances of making them come good are frankly about as good as any other manager they might get in, so get someone in who can work with the current hierarchy and at least remove that negative influence from the players mentality.

edit: Alan Wenger got Henry and Vieira in as (relatively speaking) youngsters.. look how long it took him to get them to have an effect. i have to say you have a really blinkered outlook when it comes to all things Liverpool

Mr Alan

Yes

Chances are the current hierarchy wont be there next year.

i think its very unfair to state Rafa is awful in the transfer market...

Reina-Alonso-Mascherano-Torres-Agger-Babel-Sissoko-Arbeloa-Benayoun-Lucas are just a few names of the top of my head.

Daemonic

Yes

Mr Alan wrote: »

Arsenal struggled for fourth couple of years ago and finished 4th last year, look at em now! dont think nescessarily we have to increase our points tally etc etc to think that we have any chance next year, think if Alonso could improve his form drastically, Babel become more adapted to the prem, same for Lucas, get a couple of decent new players in the window, we may still be able to challenge next year. thats why i think its important that Rafa gets his 5th year.

The difference I see between the 2 is Arsenal still looked dangerous, the football and system were working ok, they just need that little something extra which turned out to be the players being able to come out of Thierry's shadow.
When I watch Liverpool I simply don't enjoy it anymore which as a fan is a galling thing to have to say. The formation is a mystery and the players look poor on the ball. Basically I don't see any promising signs which makes me very sad because I believe Rafa is trying to rebuild the club from the ground up. The work he's done on the youth system etc shows he has a great vision for the club, but I'm just not sure he has the belief of the players anymore. I think he needs a little luck. Another CL and he'll maybe have the time to see his plan through, it just seems unlikely.

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

Wenger has had how long to accrue these youngsters? and btw youngsters that have yet to ever win a trophy.

True, but as fans I have to say we are very patient, in fact many are saying that if we get a trophy this season it is a bonus. You also have to consider the football we have been playing over the last couple of seasons. I am not surprised by our position this season, we were very unlucky last season in many many matches,I never agreed with the pundits who used to say we try and walk the ball into the net,we had enough shots on target and with a bit more luck we would have drawn less ane won more games.

As for Rafa despite the fact that he has spent quite a bit of money, I would personally give him one more season, however I think it will be dependent on how you do in the champions league and what sort of run you can put together in the league for the remainder of the season as I think your board may run out of patience.

Drag00n79

No (Liverpool fans)

Look man, I can't see what point you're making here. You compare us to Arsenal because they are doing better now than they were a couple of seasons back, when I reply that the difference is that they invest excellently in young players, you come back with their young players have won nothing?! Wenger won the double in his second season. I'm pretty sure he had bought Anelka and Vieira by that stage. He's been buying well from the start, as I'm sure you're aware.

leninbenjamin

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

Reina-Alonso-Mascherano-Torres-Agger-Babel-Sissoko-Arbeloa-Benayoun-Lucas are just a few names of the top of my head.

Frankly, all of those players bar Reina and Torres are still just unfulfilled potential. when they can be ranked along side Vieira and Henry then you might be onto something... but anyone can spot a decent youngster...

Mr Alan

Yes

as i said, i dont think our current board will make any decision on Rafa as i dont think they'll be there come the start of next season.

i agree ye are very patient, and have been with Wenger, not having won a trophy since 2005 (correct?), but liverpool used to be same, we used to be famed for it, now...since a CL final in may, when no one was calling for Rafas head, to this point now, people want Rafa gone. i think it sums up everything wrong with modern football.

i'm sure people were frustrated with the apparent lack of progress at Utd before they started winning under ferguson.

from wiki.

Ferguson made several major signings in the 1987-88 season, including Steve Bruce, Viv Anderson, and Brian McClair. The new players greatly improved the team and they finished in second place, nine points behind Liverpool.

United were expected to do well when Mark Hughes returned to the club, along with goalkeeper Jim Leighton, but the 1988-89 season was a disappointment for them, finishing eleventh in the league and losing 1–0 at home to Nottingham Forest in the FA Cup quarter-final.

---

people see my point? wat if Utd had of sacked SAF as they could not "see" the improvements being made? where would that have left them? who knows.

eoin2nc

No (Liverpool fans)

Rafa had a huge budget pre-season, he splashed the cash and he failed. He needs to go IMO

Mr Alan

Yes

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Frankly, all of those players bar Reina and Torres are still just unfulfilled potential. when they can be ranked along side Vieira and Henry then you might be onto something... but anyone can spot a decent youngster...

Viera and Henry? two of the best players ever to play in the PL? think you are possibly setting the bar a little too high!?

i wouldnt call Alonso,Mascherano,Agger solely potential, they are already super super super super players.

Mr Alan

Yes

eoin2nc wrote: »

Rafa had a huge budget pre-season, he splashed the cash and he failed. He needs to go IMO

as huge as who? everton? spurs? city?

Mr Alan

Yes

Shamrok wrote: »

You compare us to Arsenal because they are doing better now than they were a couple of seasons back.

my point was simply that because the progress being made currently is not visible on the pitch, it does not mean that it is not being made. Arsenal over the last couple of seasons proves that, and Utd in the 80's proves it.

Shamrok wrote: »

when I reply that the difference is that they invest excellently in young players, you come back with their young players have won nothing?!

simply pointing out that thats a policy they are able to indulge in because Wenger is in no immediate danger if he doesnt win a trophy, as they havent for the last 3 years. it is also a policy that Rafa hs started at Liverpool buying a lot of Europes mort talented young footballers into Liverpools academy.

Shamrok wrote: »

Wenger won the double in his second season.

Rafa won the CL in his first. and i believe the team that Wenger inherited was substantially better than the one Rafa did if i'm not mistaken.

Drag00n79

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm sure people were frustrated with the apparent lack of progress at Utd before they started winning under ferguson.

I wasn't at all frustrated actually. Good times, good times.

Mr Alan

Yes

Shamrok wrote: »

I wasn't at all frustrated actually. Good times, good times.

leninbenjamin

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

Viera and Henry? two of the best players ever to play in the PL? think you are possibly setting the bar a little too high!?

they are the exact type of player you need to win a league... the league you want Liverpool to win? the type of player Benitez must foster to win the damn PL? i'm not setting the bar high at all, i'm prescribing exactly what a winning team needs, exactly what Benitez thus far has failed to provide.

i wouldnt call Alonso,Mascherano,Agger solely potential, they are already super super super super players.

that's being extremely generous. Alonso still hasn't lived up to his initial promise that we saw in his first season. Mascherano needs a lot of work on the football side of things... Agger is the only one i'll defer to you on, but he's still far from the finished article in my book.

Drag00n79

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafa won the CL in his first.

While both brought me great joy and memories, we have to move on from winning the CL in 2005 on pens and winning the FA Cup in 2006 on pens. I go back to what I said earlier. The Prem is all that counts for me as a Pool fan and we won't ever win that under Rafa, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not getting into an argument with ya as a fellow fan but that's what I honestly feel and I think he has had sufficient time and funds to make us better than we are atm. I can't remember our prospects ever looking as bleak tbh.

DSB

No

Wenger bought himself alot of time by not spending huge amounts of the clubs money. He has also proven twice that he has what it takes to win the Premiership. It really isn't a fair comparison to make.

Mr Alan

Yes

Shamrok wrote: »

While both brought me great joy and memories, we have to move on from winning the CL in 2005 on pens and winning the FA Cup in 2006 on pens. I go back to what I said earlier. The Prem is all that counts for me as a Pool fan and we won't ever win that under Rafa, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not getting into an argument with ya as a fellow fan but that's what I honestly feel and I think he has had sufficient time and funds to make us better than we are atm. I can't remember our prospects ever looking as bleak tbh.

as i said earlier, i'm sure a lot of Utd fans would have said the same about Ferguson in 88/89 when Utd looked like they wouldnt win a league under Alex and finished 11th. despite finishing second the season before. it must have looked like they were going backwards at that point....unfortunately though, they werent.

i'm not saying Rafa should be kept indefinately cause we won the CL but, because he has won a fair few trophies in the last 3 years, so i think he should be given the five years he requested when he arrived. then we can make a decision.

jem

Yes

I still think he should stay, the youths he has built up is very like wenger, in for the long hall, needs a good ass manager though.

Drag00n79

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm not saying Rafa should be kept indefinately cause we won the CL but, because he has won a fair few trophies in the last 3 years, so i think he should be given the five years he requested when he arrived. then we can make a decision.

Will you still say that if we don't get fourth in the Prem? Because to be honest I wouldn't put money on it now.

Mr Alan

Yes

we are three points away from being 4th in the PL and have a game in hand. i wouldnt get too melodramatic about it!

and yes, i still think Rafa should stay if we dont get 4th. thatd mean we'd have even more focus on the league next year.

DSB

No

jem wrote: »

I still think he should stay, the youths he has built up is very like wenger, in for the long hall, needs a good ass manager though.

Eh I don't see them playing week in, week out, like Wenger had them, making a comparison between Benitez and Wenger is ridiculous.