Should Rafa go?

Unearthly

Mr Alan wrote: »

have a game in hand.

Liverpool fans are still saying this

Mr Alan

Yes

good work unearthly, nice contribution.

Unearthly

Thankyou, nice to get some feedback

Daemonic

Yes

DSB wrote: »

Eh I don't see them playing week in, week out, like Wenger had them, making a comparison between Benitez and Wenger is ridiculous.

There's the difference as I see it, Wenger had a formation/style that was working, he just need the players to come through. I just don't see that with the current Liverpool performances.

Drag00n79

No (Liverpool fans)

Mr Alan wrote: »

we are three points away from being 4th in the PL and have a game in hand. i wouldnt get too melodramatic about it! and yes, i still think Rafa should stay if we dont get 4th. thatd mean we'd have even more focus on the league next year.

We are also three points off 8th place. We have 44 points with 13 matches left and will prob need mid-60 point total to get fourth based on previous seasons. Some fixtures left are Arsenal, ManU, Spurs and Everton. The first three away. Believe me, it's hardly "melodramatic" when you look at our performances over the past few months.

PHB

No

Look, people can go back and forth about how Rafa should have done better in the transfer market. But what you can't disagree on is the fact, and this actually is a fact rather than the normal statements of fact, that Rafa cannot get anywhere near the best out of the players he has brought in.

Whether it's that he can't get them motivated, whether it's that he can't get them trained to a high enough level, or whether (and I think this is it) he can't make a system that uses their strengths to the best of their ability, it's a huge failing.
Of course 2 or 3 more world class attackers will help Liverpool catch up with the big 4, you'd be stupid to say it wouldn't. The question is though, can Rafa set up the right system? This year the team is playing ****, and that's his fault.

Personally, I think 4 years is plenty of time to judge somebody, Rafa is a cup specialist for Liverpool. I've no doubt that Liverpool will improve if they buy some wingers and another striker. That said, I could have told you that. What's Rafa got over me? Since he can't seem to devise any sort of working tactical system that actually gets the best out of his current players, I can't see why he would be able to do it if he had better players. All that would happen is that he'd have better players and hence do better.

Mr Alan

Yes

PHB wrote: »

Of course 2 or 3 more world class attackers will help Liverpool catch up with the big 4

?!?! i thought we were in the big 4?!?!or has Barnsley taken our place?!

Nailz

No

Yes!

leninbenjamin

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

?!?! i thought we were in the big 4?!?!or has Barnsley taken our place?!

Liverpool are like the youngest brother of the big 4. always wants to follow the bigger stronger brothers everywhere but has to be dragged kicking and screaming when the going gets tough.

Mr Alan

Yes

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Liverpool are like the youngest brother of the big 4. always wants to follow the bigger stronger brothers everywhere but has to be dragged kicking and screaming when the going gets tough.

finished third last 2 seasons.

Only one of the "big 4" to win the CL this century. the CL being the biggest competition in club football.

the Liverpool bashers must really be loving all this:(

PHB

No

Oddly enough, you are also the only one of the big 4 not to win the league this century.

I saw this great piece in the United program today actually, ways to win things

A. Try do everything, almost impossible, normally doesnt work (United, Chelsea way)

B. Put league as a clear second and concentrate totally on the CL. Means you've pretty much no chance in the league (Milan and Liverpool way)

C. Cut out the Domestic cups as a priority and focus on a double (Arsenal, Barca)

Although in the past, Madrid won their CL's by doing the B way, but seem to be more about the C way now

walshki

No (Liverpool fans)

Quite a few people on RAWK are drawing the comparison between this season and Houlliers last season and I think its a good comparison. There are a lot of good players in the squad but unfortunately I don't think Rafa is getting them to play as well as they can. Ultimately thats his job isn't it? The prospect of a champions league run is all thats keeping us going and we haven't played a game in that for over 2 month ffs.

My difficulty with people who point out off the pitch progress, squad progress etc is that I just don't see us being close to mounting any sort of league challenge with Rafa at the helm. I can't see us turning around and suddenly being contenders next year. No amount of talk about giving him the time he asked for or 'Who else is there?' can change my opinion on that.

Mr Alan

Yes

walshki wrote: »

My difficulty with people who point out off the pitch progress, squad progress etc is that I just don't see us being close to mounting any sort of league challenge with Rafa at the helm. I can't see us turning around and suddenly being contenders next year. No amount of talk about giving him the time he asked for or 'Who else is there?' can change my opinion on that.

But will you concede that United surely didnt look like they would win the league in 88/89, but yet..we all know wat happened when the board showed faith in Ferguson to deliver.

most people also didnt see Arsenal really challenging this year.

give the man next year.

cson

Mr Alan wrote: »

most people also didnt see Arsenal really challenging this year.

PHB did

Mr Alan wrote: »

give the man next year.

Agreed. But another similar season where Liverpool are out of the league by January should see him gone. He's under huge pressure if he gets another year at it.

Helix

united didnt have a side that really looked capable of it then, liverpool do

this is where your rose tints are getting in the way

liverpool have a squad of players which should be challenging, and not sitting outside the champions league places, and the only reason theyre where they are, is because of the manager

you ask who else is there? well ill tell you my opinion on that, any manager with a modicum of experience and decent man management skills, but with the brains to put out a reasonably settled 11 and stick with it would do far better than benitez in the league

cson

The Liverpool squad is lacking, imo, 3 players. A striker, a winger and a left back.

Helix

sure last summer they signed everything everyone reckoned they were lacking

they could sign everything youve listed there and they still wont win the league under benitez

astrofool

Even Keegan was able to mount a title challenge

PHB

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

But will you concede that United surely didnt look like they would win the league in 88/89, but yet..we all know wat happened when the board showed faith in Ferguson to deliver.

Maybe Rafa isn't as good in the league as Ferguson? Maybe it was a different league back then? Much more unpredictable.
This is a silly point to make, cause its not like if Big Sam was in charge, and he didnt get anywhere for 4 years, you'd be saying that he should be given more time. This is about what Rafa has shown

most people also didnt see Arsenal really challenging this year.

Well actually I thought they could do it, because Wenger has shown he knows how to make a team work well.
That's the issue here. It's not lack of players. Yes Liverpool need more good players for a top class squad, but Rafa isn't getting anywhere near the best out of the squad he currently has!
Maybe if he signs two wingers and a striker it'll all come together, but what evidence is there that he can get that to happen? Nada. The level of consistancy required to win the league now is something which Rafa can't seem to deliver.

you ask who else is there?

Managers I think who would be worth a shot. Mourinho (who I don't think would join yas, I think he wants to go abroad) Lippi, I don't know. Real Madrid appointed a relative nobody, and look at them this year. It's not just about record, it's about an x factor. Rafa doesn't seem to have it. Houllier didn't have it. Give it to somebody else. Either way, personally I'd be very happy for Rafa to stay.

p.s. If Liverpool don't win the CL this year, I think some players are gona ask whether their future lies at the club. Gerrard I think will consider moving again. Torres might think about it. Alonso surely will, since he's not even first choice anymore. Agger might get an offer from abroad.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

No (Liverpool fans)

cson wrote: »

The Liverpool squad is lacking, imo, 3 players. A striker, a winger and a left back.

they have them. Problem is, on the bench.

heyjude

I can't see Liverpool ever winning the PL with Rafa in charge, so as a non-Liverpool supporter I'd love him to stay. I think his priority is always going to be the CL and that together with his rotation policy is always going to cost them points which they can't afford to lose with three other serious title contenders.

I can understand that many Liverpool supporters want to blame the Americans for all their current woes and to give Rafa another chance next year and possibly the year after, but at some point if they don't get a move on, they'll find that the likes of Gerrard have moved on, or passed their prime.

stick-dan

Yes

rafa must stay. start that rally!

x in the city

Liverpool are just muck and its interesting seeing this thread pan out and all the bickering go on,
for me personally I hope rafa stays as LFC are no nearer to winning a league title than they were since they last won it.

Mr Alan

Yes

PHB wrote: »

Maybe Rafa isn't as good in the league as Ferguson? Maybe it was a different league back then? Much more unpredictable.

Maybe you're right. Or maybe you are wrong and Rafa can achieve league success if given some more time. neither of us know for sure, as much as you may like to pretend you do

PHB wrote: »

This is a silly point to make, cause its not like if Big Sam was in charge, and he didnt get anywhere for 4 years, you'd be saying that he should be given more time. This is about what Rafa has shown.

True, so wat Rafa has shown is that:
1)He is phenomenal in Europe.
2)In cups (lets forget about the weekend!;)), that he is more than capable of winning any we enter.
3)That he loves the club, rejecting at least 2 offers from his boyhood club Real Mardrid, and staying with the club in Asia during the World Club Championship despite the deatah of his father.
4)That when given decent money to spend, he will get it right. Alonso,Reina,Mascherano,Torres.
5)He is not just aiming for immediate success, but is aiming to establish Liverpool as a dominant force in England again. This is evident from the work he has done rebuilding the youth structure at Liverpool and with the young talent from across Europe that he has signed.
6)As a team we have a core of young players who will improve, Lucas,Babel,Arbeloa,Agger,Torres,Mascherano....these combined with the old guard players who are already at a high level, Carragher-Gerrard-Finnan-Alonso(to an extent) and a couple of new signings, and we may well close the gap that has existed between us and our rivals.
7)That he has the class to be associated with Liverpool Football club.

PHB wrote: »

p.s. If Liverpool don't win the CL this year, I think some players are gona ask whether their future lies at the club. Gerrard I think will consider moving again. Torres might think about it. Alonso surely will, since he's not even first choice anymore. Agger might get an offer from abroad.

Gerrard is contracted till 2011. Cant ever see him moving. And numerous people (inlc yourself if i'm not mistaken,think it may improve us if he were to)

Alonso i think may move either way. be an awful shame. but he may want first team football guarunteed which is not something he'll get with us. the 20 odd million i'd expect from him would be well used within the team imo.

Torres is going nowhere. Already proven by staying so long with Athletico that he is not looking for immediate success. Seems to really have a love for the club. Plus he has signed a 6 year contract when joined (i think,maybe 5) and i'd imagine there aint really any clubs in the world who could afford to buy him from us with 4-5 years remaining on his contract.

And Helix, just to point out how wrong you are about the Utd team that Ferguson finished 11th with. The previous season, they finished second, 9 points from behind the leaders (guess who?! ). They were a team that included Whiteside,McGrath,Robson....then he signed Bruce,Anderson and McClair and finished 2nd....then signed Hughes and Leighton and finished 11th again?! Football is not as simple as people like to makeout sometimes.

Qs

No

Liverpool have a great squad. They have players like Gerrard, Torres, Alonso, Mascherano, Agger, Cartragher, Finnan, etc who'd get their game for most of the top sides in Europe. Along with that theres loads fo solid squad players like Benayoun, Crouch, Risse, etc. IMO Benitez overmanages them, he has ideas like rotation and like snuffing out the opposition before worrying about scoring that simply aren't effective in the Premiership.

The level of support he recieves from the Pool fans really astonishes me, I understand why you love him but anyone can see he just isn't making progress. its highly likely now ye'll win nothing this season and its entirely possible ye'll miss out on Europe. The summer will be interesting.

kida

There seems to 2 camps
Liverpool Fans whose interest is the team first, some of whom can see the value of getting rid of possibly getting rid of the manager at some stage: now, out of CL end of season etc.

Benitez Fans who can see no wrong in anything he is doing and are willing to blindly stand by him.

In fairness to pool fans the majority are in the first camp but its the ones in the second camp that leave you open to ridicule.

PHB

No

True, so wat Rafa has shown is that:
1)He is phenomenal in Europe.
2)In cups (lets forget about the weekend!;)), that he is more than capable of winning any we enter.

Very true.

3)That he loves the club, rejecting at least 2 offers from his boyhood club Real Mardrid, and staying with the club in Asia during the World Club Championship despite the deatah of his father.

4)That when given decent money to spend, he will get it right. Alonso,Reina,Mascherano,Torres.

He has done well with big money, but poorly with little money. As a manager of Liverpool, you have to do both. It's why Fergie has done well with big money (Rooney, Carrick etc.) and well with little money (Vidic, Evra)
You have to be able to do both, but let's not have this argument again :P

5)He is not just aiming for immediate success, but is aiming to establish Liverpool as a dominant force in England again. This is evident from the work he has done rebuilding the youth structure at Liverpool and with the young talent from across Europe that he has signed.

Yep, that's good stuff. But it only works if you can maintain success in the short term aswell. Fergie's fledglings were his second team, not his first.

6)As a team we have a core of young players who will improve, Lucas,Babel,Arbeloa,Agger,Torres,Mascherano....these combined with the old guard players who are already at a high level, Carragher-Gerrard-Finnan-Alonso(to an extent) and a couple of new signings, and we may well close the gap that has existed between us and our rivals.

I don't deny that. I do deny that Rafa is the man to do that. This is where we fundamentally disagree. His record to me indictates that he is not good enough in the league to get the kind of consistancy required to win an English league in this day and age.
Football has changed, the top 4 are pretty much the same every single year, it's not like it was when Fergie first took over.

You keep talking about how Arsenal stepped up. What you once again ignore is the changes that Wenger made. He didn't just buy new players, he sold his best player for the sake of the system.
Rafa believes imo that Gerrard is best on the right wing, but he doesn't do it. Gerrard complains, Rafa concedes. He hasn't had the balls to do what I think he knows is right to do with Gerrard.

Rafa's problems aren't just the players he buys, it's that he can't get them playing to the best of their ability, except for cup games. Why this is, I just don't know. It makes so little sense to me. But that's the facts of the issue. He is unable to create a system which gets the best out of his current players, and to be honest, I don't see why he'll be able to do it even with more players.

Much better to bring a new person in, let him build on Rafa's work, and take Liverpool to the next level. Rafa is being saved by his cup performances, which are amazing, but Liverpool aren't just about the cup.
There's a reason btw he wins cups, it's cause you can draw and still win. It's no surprise to me that his cup runs have been won with penalties and away goals all over the shop. It's because he's ultimately a defensive coach, unable to get the system to get the best out of his team going forward.

7)That he has the class to be associated with Liverpool Football club.

You can have all the class you want, but you're rapidly catching up with Uniteds record year without a league title.

---

Gerrard is contracted till 2011. Cant ever see him moving. And numerous people (inlc yourself if i'm not mistaken,think it may improve us if he were to)

Alonso i think may move either way. be an awful shame. but he may want first team football guarunteed which is not something he'll get with us. the 20 odd million i'd expect from him would be well used within the team imo.

Torres is going nowhere. Already proven by staying so long with Athletico that he is not looking for immediate success. Seems to really have a love for the club. Plus he has signed a 6 year contract when joined (i think,maybe 5) and i'd imagine there aint really any clubs in the world who could afford to buy him from us with 4-5 years remaining on his contract.

Well, in terms of the transfer things, I think one player moving on can have effects on the rest of the team. Like Vieira and then Henry.
Gerrard I don't think will move either personally, (also someone in the Liverpool thread said 2009) but its something to consider. Personally I think he'll become a Shearer like thing on Liverpool. I do think Liverpool would be better without him, but only if they invest right.

20 million for Alonso is unlikely, since he is unhappy and might want to leave and since his form isn't what it used to be.

Torres has proven the exact opposite of what you said He wants success, that's why he joined Liverpool. If Rafa leaves and the new manager isn't world class, or if Rafa can't seem to progress, I think he'll be gone in a second. Heinze used to have a 'love' for United, then he left. That concept is not the same in modern day football anymore.

redspider

Yes

I thought this was a new poll! If Liverpool get knocked out of the CL by Inter, we will need a brand new poll then ..... as many of the Liverpool fans who are in the "keep Rafa camp" may want to change over to the "get rid of Rafa camp".

heyjude wrote:

I can't see Liverpool ever winning the PL with Rafa in charge

Yeah, I agree with this, although never say ever, if you know what I mean. I think it would take many years, several at best and clearly a change in approach - as he has never prioritised for the league, and the signs of that during this campaign even after all the pre-season statements of "the league being our priority" etc, turned out to be hot air. I called Liverpool's likelihood of not winning the league early (game 7 or 8) and was lambasted for being negative. Of course us fans want to believe but the signs were there for all to see and its all about selection prioritisation.

PHB wrote: »

Oddly enough, you are also the only one of the big 4 not to win the league this century.

Well, Liverpool have been in two CL finals, and have won one, Arsenal have only been in one final ever. The CL is a difficult competition to win, but Chelsea have been nearly knocking on the door as did Man Utd last year. But it is down to optimisation and whether your team is a home-and-away team that suits in style to counteract the 'continental' teams. Rafa has done well with Liverpool's personnel in the last few seasons and they have raised their game and reaped the rewards. However, he has sacrificed league selections and positions because of it and players alike have not responded. Its easier to play against Juventus than Birmingham, and the semi-finals v Chelsea had a CL feeling about them (eg: foreign refs) and not like a mere league match.

The CL is very important to Man Utd and Arsenal, perhaps more than they let on due to the difficulty of winning it. Evidence of that was clear in the selections for their recent FA Cup clash, where several first team players on each side were fully rested.

It is clearly evident that winning a home league is "easier" than winning a CL, the english league included. And Abramovich would give his left testes to win one at the moment for his Chelski project.

Liverpool are not set-up to win the league nor have they been since Rafa's arrival, due to his selection policy, type of player purchases, his emphasis, etc. It is just not his priority.

Redspider

PHB

No

I don't think it's harder or easier, it's just a different skill.

Hobart

redspider wrote: »

I thought this was a new poll! If Liverpool get knocked out of the CL by Inter, we will need a brand new poll then ..... as many of the Liverpool fans who are in the "keep Rafa camp" may want to change over to the "get rid of Rafa camp".



Yeah, I agree with this, although never say ever, if you know what I mean. I think it would take many years, several at best and clearly a change in approach - as he has never prioritised for the league, and the signs of that during this campaign even after all the pre-season statements of "the league being our priority" etc, turned out to be hot air. I called Liverpool's likelihood of not winning the league early (game 7 or 8) and was lambasted for being negative. Of course us fans want to believe but the signs were there for all to see and its all about selection prioritisation.



Well, Liverpool have been in two CL finals, and have won one, Arsenal have only been in one final ever. The CL is a difficult competition to win, but Chelsea have been nearly knocking on the door as did Man Utd last year. But it is down to optimisation and whether your team is a home-and-away team that suits in style to counteract the 'continental' teams. Rafa has done well with Liverpool's personnel in the last few seasons and they have raised their game and reaped the rewards. However, he has sacrificed league selections and positions because of it and players alike have not responded. Its easier to play against Juventus than Birmingham, and the semi-finals v Chelsea had a CL feeling about them (eg: foreign refs) and not like a mere league match.

The CL is very important to Man Utd and Arsenal, perhaps more than they let on due to the difficulty of winning it. Evidence of that was clear in the selections for their recent FA Cup clash, where several first team players on each side were fully rested.

It is clearly evident that winning a home league is "easier" than winning a CL, the english league included. And Abramovich would give his left testes to win one at the moment for his Chelski project.

Liverpool are not set-up to win the league nor have they been since Rafa's arrival, due to his selection policy, type of player purchases, his emphasis, etc. It is just not his priority.

Redspider

I think your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. But it does go against the hopes/wishes/expectations of most Liverpool fans.

My main priority, from a fans perspective, was to challenge for the PL this season. Of course I'd love another CL or FA cup, but I'd love to see some consistency in LFC for a change.

I actually get Rafa. I see what he is trying to do. People are way way off the mark in trying to compare him on achievements with SAF or AW. their style of management is not what Rafa is attempting to replicate, as successful as it is. Jose is an example of where you can be successful, while not trying to copy SAF or AW. Remember Jose inherited the millions and the squad, he did not build it all.

For one I would like to see Rafa stay at least for another 2 years. I would like to see another world class CB, Winger and Striker come into the squad, but I would also like to see a modicum of consistency with the players, which has been sorely lacking over the last 2-3 months.

The off-field distractions don't help, but they have millions of fans over the world expecting for them, the least than can do, is play to their ability.

Mr Alan

Yes

Ok, fair enough PHB, most of your points are valid, and i have no bother talking to you about it, at least you are putting your points across in a valid and constructive manner.

but can you just admit one thing for me-that you could be wrong

i know i could be wrong, but i feel Rafas record in Spain in the league and the trophies he has won at Liverpool merit him being given the extra year to try and get it right.

and Kida, that fanboy comment better not have been directed at me. i know Rafa has his faults. and sometimes, when alone in my bed at night, i have doubts as to whether or not Rafa will get it right. but at the end of the day, i still believe he will.

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ok, fair enough PHB, most of your points are valid, and i have no bother talking to you about it, at least you are putting your points across in a valid and constructive manner.

but can you just admit one thing for me-that you could be wrong

i know i could be wrong, but i feel Rafas record in Spain in the league and the trophies he has won at Liverpool merit him being given the extra year to try and get it right.

and Kida, that fanboy comment better not have been directed at me. i know Rafa has his faults. and sometimes, when alone in my bed at night, i have doubts as to whether or not Rafa will get it right. but at the end of the day, i still believe he will.

Not just you in fairness - and I think most pool fans will agree with me

PHB

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

but can you just admit one thing for me-that you could be wrong

Of course I could be wrong, who couldn't be, it's unpredictable. Just don't see it happening.

i know i could be wrong, but i feel Rafas record in Spain in the league and the trophies he has won at Liverpool merit him being given the extra year to try and get it right.

Rafa never achieved that sort of consistency with Valencia either.

Winners points tally:
La Liga: 02: 75 - 03: 78 - 04: 77 - 05: 84- 06: 82 - 07: 76
PL

---

: 02: 87 - 03: 83 - 04: 90 - 05: 95 - 06: 91 - 07: 89

Huge difference is that there are three teams who constantly push up to the 90s in the last four years, Rafa has never achieved that.
Infact, if you look at Liverpool over the past 3 years while Rafa has been in charge, it's been

05: 58 - 06: 82 - 07: 68

This year we're looking at around 60-70 I'd say.

Rafa has never shown he can push his team up that the extra level. It's something the Spanish managers have never had to do.

Mr Alan

Yes

have faith PHB my newly moderated friend