Who is to blame?

Seth Brundle

I know someone (not me!!!) who was turning left (on a green light) onto the Stillorgan Dualler. A car coming from the other side of the carriageway (it was a cross-roads) was turning to their right and the two cars met.
Liability is disputed between the two and I was wondering what you all thought.

The person I know took the left 'slip' onto the dual carriageway. When I say slip, there was a traffic island dividing her from traffic going straight &/or right.
The other driver came from the entrance on the other side. They would have turned right by the time they met my friend.
Visibility at the junction is fairly good in terms of each being able to see oncoming traffic.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=113107831172532079152.00000112a41eeae92202e&ll=53.293137,-6.201138&spn=0.001408,0.005021&t=h&z=18&om=0

Out of curiosity, who do you think is to blame for the contact? Shoudl the toher driver has waited for traffic to finish turning left before they finished turning right? Should my friend have yielded to the traffic coming from their right?

crosstownk

I would imagine that there was yield sign on the approach to the N11.

I would hazard a guess that the traffic already on the N11 would have right of way.

I'm not aware of the exact details of the junction, but it sounds like the person approaching on the slip road has to give way to the traffic that is already on the N11.

In the event of lack of clarity and traffic signals, apply the roundabout rule.

Am I reading it wrong......?

milltown

I'd say your friend is in the wrong. Likelihood is that at the end of the left turn slip, there's either a yield sign or a set of lights with flashing orange instead of green. Both mean the right turner had right of way.

port

AFAIK where two cars are turning into the same road the car turning left has right of way.....imo your friend was in the right,i hope nobody was hurt.

PhoenixRising

It's a very badly laid out junction and the traffic lights allow traffic out of both minor roads to converge on the N11 northbound at the same time and nobody ever seems to know who has right of way. The light sequence needs to be altered in my opinion. I've had several near misses there and am always on guard now whenever I am using that junction.

Without any clear guidance, I guess the driver should revert to the default rule of giving way to traffic on your right so my guess is that the car turning right onto the dual carriageway (northbound) technically had right of way. Although in saying that, those who know the junction, will probably agree that the layout especially when turning left onto the dual carriageway feels like you have right of way because your lights are green and you are on a kind of slip road.

Seth Brundle

There is no yield sign because the entire junction is covered by regular traffic lights, even the bit that my friend drove along.
I suppose the logic is similar to a standard crossroads at a dual carriageway. Does traffic coming from the opposite side need to yield to traffic turning left? In theory, they are on the carriageway.

antodeco

Was this the junction in front of Oatlands heading city bound? If its that junction, the people turning right have right of way, as they are already on the road before the other lane joins. The people waiting to turn left have to cross lanes to get onto the dualler. Otherwise, (different junction) the people turning left have right of way, as they are already on the road (leading by non-filter arrow)

EDIT: Only saw the googlemaps link there! Its the exact junction Im thinking of. Your friend was meant to yield unfortunatley. Its a confusing junction, but as the turning (right) car was already on the main road, they had priority.

Jeapy

antodeco wrote: »

Was this the junction in front of Oatlands heading city bound? If its that junction, the people turning right have right of way, as they are already on the road before the other lane joins. The people waiting to turn left have to cross lanes to get onto the dualler.

+1 going by the diagram, only I couldn't explain it that well!

Seth Brundle

Thats what I suspected. Thanks

mikedragon32

If in doubt always yield to the car on your right. Unfortunately this means your friend should be liable for the damage.

I know that junction well and used to use it daily when I drove to work in town and it's a pig of a junction. It's badly laid out and the light sequence is poorly planned given that there's normally a build up of traffic from the next set of lights along the N11 and only 100m between them.

DublinDilbert

Although in theory the person turning right, should of gone into the lane nearest them, which as its a 2 lane road would of been the lane nearest the center of the road, hence should never have collided with the car turning left onto the 2 lane road.

Seth Brundle

True DD, but then again, this is Ireland and there are no rules governing lane usage!

antodeco

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Although in theory the person turning right, should of gone into the lane nearest them, which as its a 2 lane road would of been the lane nearest the center of the road, hence should never have collided with the car turning left onto the 2 lane road.

The problem that lies at this junction is the slip road has two lanes. One is a bus lane. Around 20 metres up, there is a left turn. So, if you are turning right and wish to take that left turn, you have to enter the middle lane. Its a dog of a junction, that can easily be rectified by a proper sequence of lights.

DublinDilbert

kbannon wrote: »

True DD, but then again, this is Ireland and there are no rules governing lane usage!

Yea our driving test / rules of the road need serious modernization, in other countries, when pulling onto a multi lane road the 2 lanes nearest to you must be clear, this allows a driver on the road your pulling onto do a lane change, and no collision to occur.


One junction that does my head in, is the at the bottom of the ballymun road, when you turn right onto Griffith avenue extension. you have to yield to cars coming from the left, but there's a ghost island there, hence there should be no cars coming from your left!!! but all the cars coming from the left drive straight over the ghost island.

ScouseMouse

your friend has to yield to traffic from the right.

Victor

If this was a straight forward cross roads, your friend would have had right of way. I'm less certain in this case.

But I have to ask, 3 lanes, 2 cars. How did they collide?

AnnaStezia

I had a problem accessing the Google map. Is this the Oatlands / N11 / Priory junction ?

If yes, I think that OP's friend is probably mostly at fault.

Although he has a green filter arrow for the left turn traffic coming from Priory has turned right and is then travelling on the N11 at the point where the two streams meet.

I think that this junction has what an engineering pal of mine calls an "engineered-in defect". Any stranger to that junction would be deceived by the green filter arrow as that gives the impression of it being safe to proceed.

As I see it the light sequence actually creates a conflict situation. This junction would nearly be safer in a power cut when everyone pays more attention.

I would complain to Dun Laoghaire Co. Co and tell them that you intend to hold them liable for the accident. Good luck if you get a reply as most of that lot seem to be clinically dead.

However, if the other motorist's claim is large OP's friend should bring the point about the "engineered in defect" to the attention of his motor insurers and ask them to consider joining DLR Co Co to any legal action or trying to make a claim for indemnity and contribution from DLR Co Co for the defective junction which does constitute a hazard which they have constructed.

I don't know if they could help but I think that the local Garda station for this area is Blackrock (WA ?). It might be worth asking them if they have any record of the number of accidents at this junction. If they do and there is a notable number of crashes that might constitute good evidence of defective design / layout / operation.

Seth Brundle

I have no idea how they collided or who went into who. All I really know has been posted. I thought it would be an interesting case study.

Seth Brundle

@ AnnaStezia - the junction is at Oatlands. Thanks for the advice - I'll tell her.

AnnaStezia

kbannon wrote: »

@ AnnaStezia - the junction is at Oatlands. Thanks for the advice - I'll tell her.

Right. I know it very well. That junction is a trap for the unwary and but for the grace of God goes anyone using it.

It is a while since I walked past that junction. However, any time I did there was always considerable amounts of righteously indignant horn blowing arising from exactly the conflict situation that we are talking about !!! It was worse in hours of darkness !!

daedalus2097

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Although in theory the person turning right, should of gone into the lane nearest them, which as its a 2 lane road would of been the lane nearest the center of the road, hence should never have collided with the car turning left onto the 2 lane road.

I'm not so sure about that. If there's only one lane which is able to turn right onto a dual carriageway, traffic turning right should flow into the driving lane. Only if there are two lanes which allow turning right and the driver is in the rightmost lane should they end up in the overtaking lane on the main road. Of course any specific markings on the junction itself would override this general rule. The particular junction that comes to mind is the N11/Foster's Avenue one, where there are two right turn lanes onto the dual carriageway. It astounds me the amount of people who end up in the wrong lane coming out of that junction, often running other drivers off the road in the process.

By the sounds of things the left hand slip your friend came out of should've had a yield or flashing amber filter rather than a green filter. Seems the junction is really at fault here, though who knows what the insurance companies will decide amongst themselves.

NUTLEY BOY

I was up that way today and observed the junction over a few cycles of light changes.

Traffic from Priory can turn right on to the N11 to head towards Donnybrook or go straight ahead towards Oatlands. It is controlled by an ordinary green light.

Traffic coming from the Oatlands College side going left towards Donnybrook is controlled by a left turn green filter arrow.

The green filter arrow and the ordinary green light both go through the same phases at the same times. i.e both green at the same time.

Traffic from Oatlands enters the N11 immediately it clears the green filter arrow.

Traffic from Priory does likewise but has to make a right turn across the junction first to go in the Donnybrook direction.

Right turning traffic from Priory has just about "straightened up" when it meets traffic coming from Oatlands.[ Never mind the complication of trying to cut across to turn left again to get up Trees Road !!]

As I see it this is a classical designed in defect as described already and it is crazy.

You rarely have absolute rights in using the highway. You must keep a proper look out. However, if you come to a junction and you are under the control of a green filter arrow which indicates that you are clear to go that certainly conveys a strong presumption that you are confidently safe to proceed.

How would it be if the traffic lights sequence at that junction was altered so that traffic coming from Oatlands on a green filter arrow met N11 traffic coming from Bray on a green light at the same time ? That would be lunacy but it is effectively what is happening at this junction.

Daedulus2097's idea of a flashing amber arrow sounds right for this junction.

I am not sure if the usual rule that you yield to traffic coming from your right actually applies at a controlled junction. Ordinarily, controlled junctions are sequenced so that you should not be in a position of a right of way conflict - unless the junction has been designed by DLRCoCo !!

I see the suggestion of a complaint to DLRCoCo. Truthfully, I have never had the impression that they are responsive to complaints about problems like this. Is there any authority above them to whom a complaint could be made ? Generally, it is never satisfactory to make a complaint to people who are also the arbiters of that complaint if they don't argee with you.

I had a "near miss" at this junction a few years ago because of the same problem as posted by OP. Given the radical decline in driving standards I am surprised that someone has not been killed at this location.