where is the outrage?

El Stuntman

not a political question as such, maybe more sociological....

does apathy rule us? we see every day shocking evidence of government incompetence and mismanagement, ministers repeating nonsensical spin and a Taoiseach whose financial affairs make Haughey's look simple. Not to mention our economic situation being eroded daily - job losses, falling competitiveness, plummeting house prices, nosediving stock markets, inflation etc

Yet, there is a strange lack of outrage amongst the populace while I believe we should be hopping mad. Can anyone posit a reason for this - is it our old serf mentality coming to the fore? I am genuinely puzzled!

CerebralCortex

I think people feel powerless to change it. The country is very cynical imo and don't value moral integrity in their politicians (again opinion). A lot of people I think politics has nothing to do with them also. During the last election I couldn't believe how many people said they wouldn't bother voting because they have no interest in it on national TV which is worse :eek: .
I may be an idealist but I think the cynical aspect of Irish culture could change.

Morlar

I think people see the alternative as incompetent and would prefer hard nosed financially astute hoors than drivelling p.c.retards to hold the reins. If fg ever presented themselves as professional and capable and with an ounce of backbone (rather than reastionary twits) ff would be out in the cold for a generation. Thats my honest opinion on it - its more cynicism than apathy on the part of voters.

rlogue

I look upon the whole political situation with a sense of deep frustration. Time and again we have seen that the political establishment (Fianna Fail and Fine Gael) will continue to rip off the taxpayer while not bothering to pay tax themselves.

Basic human rights like free medical care and open, integrated education get pushed to one side while the establishment keep their snouts and those of their friends (Joe Burke, anyone?) in the trough while the people continue to elect them to office again and again.

And that is the crux of the matter - if we keep electing FF and FG to power then we won't get free health care for the people, we won't get open, integrated education and the establlishment will continue to have their snouts in the trough.

Bertie's appointment of Joe Burke's girlfriend to the Seanad wasn't the first questionable state appointment, and while FF and FG are (alternatively) in power it won't be the last.

rlogue

The key ingredient that is missing in our political system is that the two main parties (FF & FG) are not based on any particular political ideology other than to seek political power for themselves and grant favours to their friends when in power.

It makes me laugh to see FFers and FGers pouring scorn on the other party as to me this is just like two screws mocking each other because one is made of brass and the other of copper. There is really is no difference between the two parties - indeed Fianna Fail does not even see itself as a political party; it sees itself as a "National Movement" whose aims are the restoration of the Irish language and the reunification of our island. In that case the Movement would want to wind itself up as it has failed miserably to achieve both aims!

What is the difference between FF & FG? None. Really there isn't. Both parties work hard to maintain the status quo in Irish society, and both parties grant favours to their friends when in office. Accusations from the Shinner camp that FG are somehow "West Brits" and "less Irish" are simply political bolloxology as I know a fair few West Brit types in FF and more than a few hardline nationalists in FG.

cavedave

Irish people seem not to like ideology



The two most ideological TD's Joe Higgins and Michael MacDowell both lost there jobs at the election.
What i find most strange is the apathy amongst politicians. The number of issues they say they cannot effect (incinerators, road locations, adding incentives to the public sector and many others) are vast.

Mr.Micro

cavedave wrote: »

Irish people seem not to like ideology



The two most ideological TD's Joe Higgins and Michael MacDowell both lost there jobs at the election.
What i find most strange is the apathy amongst politicians. The number of issues they say they cannot effect (incinerators, road locations, adding incentives to the public sector and many others) are vast.

There's your answer right there in your graphic, a coalition between the Greens and Labour, left and right. I still believe that apathy is still a part of the Irish psyche, "ah shur", its probably in the genes and passed down. Leave it to someone else to do, everything here is often half hearted.

DadaKopf

El Stuntman wrote: »

not a political question as such, maybe more sociological....

does apathy rule us? we see every day shocking evidence of government incompetence and mismanagement, ministers repeating nonsensical spin and a Taoiseach whose financial affairs make Haughey's look simple. Not to mention our economic situation being eroded daily - job losses, falling competitiveness, plummeting house prices, nosediving stock markets, inflation etc

Yet, there is a strange lack of outrage amongst the populace while I believe we should be hopping mad. Can anyone posit a reason for this - is it our old serf mentality coming to the fore? I am genuinely puzzled!

A useful way to think about this is David Held's spectrum of legitimacy. Based on studies in the UK, it puts a bit of shape on the range of citizens' attitudes towards and engagement with traditional politics.

(Let 1 be most authoritarian, 7 be most legitimate)

Continuum of Political Legitimacy

1. Coercion, or following orders
2. Tradition
3. Apathy
4. Pragmatic acquiescence
5. Instrumental acceptance
6. Normative agreement
7. Ideal normative agreement

Legitimacy only occurs in (6) and (7). I would say most Irish people are political to a degree, so we're not entirely characterised by apathy. I'd say we're mostly around (4) and (5). We know things are rubbish, but we just put up with it either because of the personal benefits (actual or implied) from having FG or FF in power (mostly the latter), or because we don't feel like we can change the system, or both. Which is weird to say the least.

Of the parties legitimised by people who believe in bringing about (6) and (7), I'd say Labour and the Greens represent this group most (and small fractions, slivers, of FF and FG.

So I think the apathy debate can be overemphasised, overwrought and misunderstood. Apathy's bad, but pragmatic acquiescence is corrisive.

heyjude

I don't know if you would call it apathy or pragmatic acquiescence, but it seems as though, through a fragmentation of the opposition, a situation has developed over the past 20 years whereby Fianna Fail can remain in government indefinitely through a simple understanding of electoral arithmetic.

It seems to be generally accepted that Fianna Fail base support is about 35% and in recent elections they have managed to get 40-41%, which with the abundance of smaller parties and independent TDs is enough to ensure FF remain in power. So facing an election, FF know they start with 35% support which seems constant no matter what challenges/controversies the party is facing, they only need 5-6% more to stay in power.

They also know that despite inter election polls showing that health, education and crime are the big issues, when push comes to shove in an election campaign, a traditional appeal to people's greed (i.e. we put more money in your pockets) always works in getting the few percentage points they need.

So how did we reach this stage, well, continued FF government leads to frustration in opposition parties and among non-FF voters, so they look elsewhere for answers, leading to further fragmentation, more parties, more independents and more potential future partners for FF.

I read that in electoral terms, Bertie Ahern is the 2nd least successful FF leader of all time(only Albert Reynolds fared worse in % vote), but while Ahern has fared poorly in percentage terms he has always been able to form a government(which in FF terms makes him the great leader).

I think while single party government(or a single party dominated government) persists here, the level of apathy can only increase, the question is, having claimed credit for all the extra jobs, wealth, booming economy etc created in the past decade, they can deflect all blame when the jobs/wealth etc disappear.

Given their core vote and how little they need to do to stay in power, they probably will.

EamonnKeane

Morlar wrote: »

I think people see the alternative as incompetent and would prefer hard nosed financially astute hoors than drivelling p.c.retards to hold the reins. If fg ever presented themselves as professional and capable and with an ounce of backbone (rather than reastionary twits) ff would be out in the cold for a generation. Thats my honest opinion on it - its more cynicism than apathy on the part of voters.

no comment necessary

moe_sizlak

cavedave wrote: »

Irish people seem not to like ideology



The two most ideological TD's Joe Higgins and Michael MacDowell both lost there jobs at the election.
What i find most strange is the apathy amongst politicians. The number of issues they say they cannot effect (incinerators, road locations, adding incentives to the public sector and many others) are vast.

we irish are a deeply unidealogical people by nature , this might explain the fact that most political parties in ireland are so of the centre , there a white line in the middle of the road

the only less idealogical nation i can think of is australia , i havent been to every country so forgive me greenland if your even less idealogical

Dr Galen

El Stuntman, I'd share your horror at the apathy, thats what it is. Not wanting to sound alarmist but look at health, education, transport pretty much all in rag order and where are the people? Where's the public opinion?

What shocks me most though is the total lack of interest in politics or current affairs that people my age (mid - late 20's, early thirties) have. I wouldn't expect every person to know the in's and outs of every party policy or be an expert on the situation with the US Primarys but it seems that most people seem to lack any basic understanding or awareness.

During the elections last year, a conversation at work between about 7 of us came up about who we were voting for, or if we even voted. It turned out that I was the only one who was definitely going to vote, and had given it any thought. 2 lads were voting for the FF candidate, they came from a "FF house" theyt admitted which is at least better than all the rest who weren't voting at all.

Maybe people are too caught up in paying the mortgage, the daily 2 hour M50 trudge or where they'll get their next latte from to care any more. Maybe politics and the wider picture have actually really become irrelevant to the normal person in the street.......

eoin5

nurse_baz wrote: »

During the elections last year, a conversation at work between about 7 of us came up about who we were voting for, or if we even voted. It turned out that I was the only one who was definitely going to vote, and had given it any thought. 2 lads were voting for the FF candidate, they came from a "FF house" theyt admitted which is at least better than all the rest who weren't voting at all.

I didnt vote in the last election. Its not that its completely pointless voting but its as good as if you look at that graph. What I do is I email our elected betters every so often to tell them what my views are in the hope that they can improve things. I think thats better than turning out every 4 years for an A or B decision to somehow legitimise the party machines.

Just as an example take the US planes in Shannon, most of the country doesnt want them there and I find what the ministers say is very insulting to the country on the matter "the US and Irish are good friends". I find that to implicate us in a war over something we dont want for some imaginary friendship boils my blood (this is just an example I dont mean to drag the thread off topic here). I dont see how my vote will have any realistic effect on the matter but at least I get my say through protest or email. Theres where the outrage should be, the people should always be out pushing their betters. The government should be afraid of its people, theres not much point in voting otherwise.

rlogue

I understand the outrage felt by some over American planes in Shannon, but the real issues are:

1: Our appalling, mostly privately run health service
2: The total lack of state rather than religious primary education
3: Corruption

None of the above are in order of preference, each are an absolute indictment of our so-called democracy. After all, all these issues will remain until we as a nation get off our collective well-fed arses and do something about it, such as actually voting the FF/FG consensus OUT of power.

eoin5

rlogue wrote: »

I understand the outrage felt by some over American planes in Shannon, but the real issues are:

1: Our appalling, mostly privately run health service
2: The total lack of state rather than religious primary education
3: Corruption

None of the above are in order of preference, each are an absolute indictment of our so-called democracy. After all, all these issues will remain until we as a nation get off our collective well-fed arses and do something about it, such as actually voting the FF/FG consensus OUT of power.

We need to get an ethos of activism into the country before any political party will be worth voting for. And no that does not mean selfish strikes, even if they are justified! I'm talking about large scale positive demands for good reasons from more than just disgruntled public sector employees, farmers and hippies.

The ballot box alone is not enough. The political process shouldnt be this really inaccessable thing waaay over there that we interact with once ever never.

IRLConor

If one wishes to drastically change the way this country is run then FF and FG need to go and there needs to be a viable option to replace them with. As I see it there is neither a collective will to get rid of FF/FG nor is there a party (or even disorganised gaggle of amateur politicians) who will both appeal to a majority and do a better job than the incumbents.

I reckon the lack of "outrage" is due to the fact that in terms of political views, the incumbents tick most of the boxes for the populace. Where outrage would be warranted is in regards to the competence and transparency, not the political orientation of the incumbents. I guess the Irish people prefer a government that does what they want badly rather than a government that does what they don't want well.

OTK

El Stuntman wrote: »

we see every day shocking evidence of government incompetence and mismanagement, ministers repeating nonsensical spin and a Taoiseach whose financial affairs make Haughey's look simple. Not to mention our economic situation being eroded daily - job losses, falling competitiveness, plummeting house prices, nosediving stock markets, inflation etc

I don't see this 'shocking evidence' as anything more than the result of a more open society.
Who thinks Ireland was more competently managed in the past than now?

The amounts of cash involved in Bertie's alleged irregularities are orders of magnitude lower than with CJH. He is being investigated while still in office. Both of these factors are improvements on the past.

Our economic situation has reached an undreamt of peak. Taxes are low. Our nominal GDP per capita is higher than Switzerland. We are close to full employment. Stock market falls are a global phenomenon and can hardly be blamed on the Irish government. Inflation is low in historic terms. Falling house prices are surely a good thing for society, making housing more affordable for all.

Anyone above a certain age knows things were a lot worse in the past.

People are hardly apathetic about the problems that remain like an inefficient health service, a sectarian education system, crime and policing and so on. All of these are issues in the press and in the public mind.

duggie-89

rlogue wrote: »

I understand the outrage felt by some over American planes in Shannon, but the real issues are:

1: Our appalling, mostly privately run health service
2: The total lack of state rather than religious primary education
3: Corruption

None of the above are in order of preference, each are an absolute indictment of our so-called democracy. After all, all these issues will remain until we as a nation get off our collective well-fed arses and do something about it, such as actually voting the FF/FG consensus OUT of power.

well said !!!!!!!!!!!!!

but i also believe that the nation question of unification should be a high pirotry

BurnsCarpenter

People are pretty comfortable in general.
There's a direct correlation between ownership of flat screen TVs and likelihood of protesting in the streets.

duggie-89

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

People are pretty comfortable in general.
There's a direct correlation between ownership of flat screen TVs and likelihood of protesting in the streets.

but what people fail to realise is that owning that flat screen tv probably means they have a huge bills to pay which they simply cant and so leads to thar down trend.

Boggle

Anyone above a certain age knows things were a lot worse in the past.

Funnily enough, most people of that age that I have talked to lately are scared sh1tless of what is going to happen this year. Unemployment is rising, competitiveness is a thing of the past, construction is fubar'd, unemployment increasing, young people shackled with huge debts (the same loans that made us think we were rich) and viewing emigration as the only option... Just aswell we invested so much in Irish startup and tech companies eh?!?

By the way cavedave, the greens are not libertarian. They would round us all up commy style and have us live in communal appartment blocks if they had their way. There is no cop on with them nuts and you'll see what i mean if they get enough rope.... They are also hardly leftwing either when their answer to every problem is to tax it beyond the means of the common man...

gurramok

"Its the economy stupid, the economy!"...Thats what got Bush's Dad in '92.

Now as we enter the downturn, people will feel less money in their pockets and along with the insecurity of not having a feelgood factor that they will stand up and examine things.

Money rules and when a sizeable portion of the population get scarce of it, you'll see the outrage.

sovtek

As an outsider looking in my observation is that a lot of people (I'm painting with a wide brush here) seem to have an institutionalized aquiesence to authority or perceived authority married to a deep fear of change.
I've had so many instances of someone in power (or someone who was deluded in thinking they had power) in this country trying to get one over me or my friends.
In all cases they just wanted to "get past it and move on" (this is the Irish I'm talking about here). Where I'm from this attitude is considered just plain cowardly and it makes sure that nothing will ever get better.
Whenever I've proffered my theory that if you don't do something that nothing will get better I get Irish sideways glances like I have two heads or soemthing.
Right now I'm helping to form a group of people that are going to lobby the government to cease with their ill treatment of foreignors. At the first meeting I was struck dumb with how much different their/our approach was to things.
Firstly there was no question that things were wrong and that something had to be done or otherwise other people will continue to suffer, even if it might not directly benefit us.
Secondly these are the ideas that will probably make a difference and everyone volunteered and the job was done.

Anyway that's the Auslanders €0.02

DadaKopf

I know what you mean.

Rock Climber

sovtek wrote: »

As an outsider looking in my observation is that a lot of people (I'm painting with a wide brush here) seem to have an institutionalized aquiesence to authority or perceived authority married to a deep fear of change.

This is the 2nd thread,I've seen peoples legitimately held expressions described as being institutionalised today.
Lets be blunt here that falls into the category of being lame.
Lame in the sense of,I have my views so anybody [read the majority in this example] must be wrong because well I'm right and thats that.
So when all else fails,lets diss the majority of people who don't agree with me.
Like I said thats lame.

I've had so many instances of someone in power (or someone who was deluded in thinking they had power) in this country trying to get one over me or my friends.

I understand that.It's a symptom of humanity world wide,not just Ireland.It's not general behaviour but it's widespead in my experience.

In all cases they just wanted to "get past it and move on" (this is the Irish I'm talking about here). Where I'm from this attitude is considered just plain cowardly and it makes sure that nothing will ever get better.

Everyone where you are from? You are from America aren't you? Plenty of examples there of the opposite of what you are saying,and you've posted those examples even from your own point of view in several threads here

Whenever I've proffered my theory that if you don't do something that nothing will get better I get Irish sideways glances like I have two heads or soemthing.

Well you can't legislate for peoples ability to think differently to your own tbh.

Anyway that's the Auslanders €0.02

Hang on you've changed your nationality?
You've posted here many times that you are an american.

DadaKopf

Well you can't legislate for peoples ability to think differently to your own tbh.

You have little understanding of legislation. You have little understanding of how ideology is encoded in legislation and political institutions.

It's a symptom of humanity world wide,not just Ireland.It's not general behaviour but it's widespead in my experience.

The delicious irony in all this is that you're guilty of what you're accusing others of. Take this, for example: "It's a symptom of humanity world wide,not just Ireland. It's not general behaviour but it's widespead in my experience." The implication is that you find this acceptable because you acknowledge that it exists without also condemning it, which, logically, means you endorse it. Now your opinion is an ideological position, which you'd rather everyone simply accepted. This interpretation is reinforced by your comments in the other thread. You may mean it as an observation but, discursively, you're saying something much more.

I'm sorry if my opinions threaten yours, but we're democrats, right?

Rock Climber

DadaKopf wrote: »

You have little understanding of democracy or of legislation. You have little understanding of ideology and how it is encoded into legislation and other political institutions and practices.

Is that a fact or an opinion? I suggest it's your opinion.
I'm not worried about it though.

The delicious irony in all this is that you're guilty of what you're accusing others of. Take this, for example: "It's a symptom of humanity world wide,not just Ireland. It's not general behaviour but it's widespead in my experience." The implication is that you find this acceptable because you acknowledge that it exists, but you're also not condemning it, which means you endorse it. Now, your opinion is an ideological position, which you'd rather everyone simply accepted.

au contraire.You are imposing beliefs upon me,the essence of which I have not discussed.
Ergo your assumptions are false.

This interpretation is reinforced by your comments in the other thread. You may mean it as an observation but, discursively, you're saying something much more.

That together with this:

I'm sorry if my opinions threaten yours, but we're democrats, right?

Suggest that the pot is calling the kettle black.
Except I can categorically state for you that your opinions I respect.I might even find them interesting as I've read and engaged with a lot of them.
I do find this latest approach disappointing though.

DadaKopf

Do you dream?

DadaKopf

You are imposing beliefs upon me,the essence of which I have not discussed.
Ergo your assumptions are false.

Actually, it was designed to expose the logical incoherence of your argument. Your argument is contradictory. I'm arguing at a completely different level discourse. That's what you've missed

Anyway, read this. You might learn something. Broadly, this is where I'm coming from.

This is a nice Fred Halliday quote, too:

Number six: in the modern world, we do not need utopias

Dreaming, the aspiration to a better world and the imagination thereof, is a necessary part of the human condition.

rcecil

Having watched parties play games for years I am most impressed with the caliber of young idealists and activists involved in Sinn Fein around the country. It seems to be the only party working hard for equality, the environment, stopping the war in Iraq and representing the interests of the many over the few. Adams was the only world leader to meet with Bush before the invasion and state his opposition.

El Stuntman

rcecil wrote: »

Having watched parties play games for years I am most impressed with the caliber of young idealists and activists involved in Sinn Fein around the country. It seems to be the only party working hard for equality, the environment, stopping the war in Iraq and representing the interests of the many over the few. Adams was the only world leader to meet with Bush before the invasion and state his opposition.

yes, they're an impressive lot

very civic-minded