God is a gas cloud...

white_falcon

OK I know this sound stupid. And it probably is. But I was brought up a Catholic and all those Sundays sitting in mass listening to the amazing crap of how we are all bad and should repent for our sins in church, and then our creator will let u go to a special place when we die, i started thinking

During the Creed (I think thats where its said), Catholics say "we believe in one god, father almighty, maker of heaven and earth"...

Now, putting the maker of heaven part aside, the maker of earth was the big bang billions of years ago which created all the planets and the universe as we know it today. So...by that deduction, are Catholics not worshipping the gas clouds that combined millenia ago to create earth - ie. maker of earth?

Zillah

No. I don't think any Christian would fail to dodge that one by saying "God was the force behind the big bang" blah blah.

white_falcon

yea I thought that...but they don't say they believe in the creator of the big bang, or the universe. they say "creator of heaven and earth"....

Dades

Nobody had ever conceived of the Big Bang when those words were written... and the church are hardly in the business of updating creeds in line with current scientific thinking.

I'm not seeing a lot of purpose to this thread.

white_falcon

riteo so. close this thread mods. just thought it was an interesting thought

Dades

No need to close. Someone might find something new there...

I just thought it was all a bit, well, obvious!

karen3212

I can't believe someone was listening in church when they were young! I'd say most people are thinking of an old man with a beard when they say it, or they are daydreaming.

Scofflaw

Thesis:

So...by that deduction, are Catholics not worshipping the gas clouds that combined millenia ago to create earth - ie. maker of earth?

Antithesis:

karen3212 wrote: »

I can't believe someone was listening in church when they were young! I'd say most people are thinking of an old man with a beard when they say it, or they are daydreaming.

The obvious synthesis is left to the reader.

cheekily,
Scofflaw

cavedave

That sounds like the time bender meet god.

Video

God: "Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a pickpocket."
Bender: "Or a guy who burns down a bar for the insurance money!"
God: "Yes, if you make it look like an electrical thing. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Ekancone

If he was then we would all look like a gas cloud, no?

User45701

Zillah wrote: »

No. I don't think any Christian would fail to dodge that one by saying "God was the force behind the big bang" blah blah.

We will explain that one with science and then they will have no fall back, at some point we will understand the nature of the universe though science

niceonetom

User45701 wrote: »

We will explain that one with science and then they will have no fall back, at some point we will understand the nature of the universe though science

they will always have ignorance. you cannot make someone understand anything, especially not something that would force them to abandon cherished fantasies.

Carrigart Exile

I am a classic agnostic but I notice on sites such as this the almost desperation of committed non believers to converting those that believe to their view.

Are you afraid you may be wrong and need herd approval?

I also notice those who believe everything is science based make the same leaps of faith that believers in God do, yet justify their leaps of faith as factual. The 'Big Bang' is a theory. 'Darwinism' is a theory, there are huge gaps in Darwins theory that require faith to fill it.

niceonetom

don't forget the theory of gravity!! or the theory of electromagnetism!! honestly how many times does this word's meaning in a scientific context need explaining?

i'm not trying to convert anyone to anything, i just can't stand it when people make wild truth statements based on absolutely no credible evidence. as an agnostic i presume you share that distaste?

if you can't tell the differene between believing something based on millions of man-years of peer-reviewed, cross referenced evidence based reasoning, research, experiment and reality and and believing something because it's comforting/in the holy book then fair enough; agnosticism is your only option. i would weigh up the arguments and choose the one that make most sense to me, and serves a s the most accurate model of the world around me.

the herd has fck all to do with it, though christians do refer to themselves as a flock.

Dades

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

I am a classic agnostic but I notice on sites such as this the almost desperation of committed non believers to converting those that believe to their view.

If you're not interested in discussion, banter and a bit of verbal wrestling then by all means close the door on your way out. But don't suggest because it's not your thing that other non-believers can't enjoy a good debate with each other, or the regular believers that drop by.

Tim Robbins

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

I am a classic agnostic but I notice on sites such as this the almost desperation of committed non believers to converting those that believe to their view.

Are you afraid you may be wrong and need herd approval?

I think atheists have more interest in religion and science than agnostics.

In my own case I was committed agnostic for a while and then did some research into various religions and quickly found out that the notion of there being a God came from the same source that brought you a man living inside a whale and plethoria of absolute nonsense that was believed by all for a very very long time.

Personally I am not looking to convert anyone. I enjoy deep conversations about morality, science, philosophy, humanities, politics. At times, it's night impossible to have these discussions and exclude religion or the concept of God. If you frequent these forums you'll see many arguments and disagreements between atheists, they are not just between atheists and theists.

I am also very interest in the bridge between the atheism and theism. Although we have entirely different views, we are all human and have some way to communicate and understand each other. That's the challenging part. The theist needs to understand the rational nature of atheism and the atheist needs to understand the more visceral nature of theism.

I also notice those who believe everything is science based make the same leaps of faith that believers in God do, yet justify their leaps of faith as factual. The 'Big Bang' is a theory. 'Darwinism' is a theory, there are huge gaps in Darwins theory that require faith to fill it.

If you've done your research, you should know that gravity is also just a theory and the word "theory" has a very different meaning in a Scientific context. So every time you fly in a plane, you make the same leap of faith the rest of us make in evolution, the big bang etc.
Ultimately there is no faith in Science, it's a tentative, questioning, evidence based philosophy not a dogmatic one.

Carrigart Exile

niceonetom wrote: »

don't forget the theory of gravity!! or the theory of electromagnetism!! honestly how many times does this word's meaning in a scientific context need explaining?

i'm not trying to convert anyone to anything, i just can't stand it when people make wild truth statements based on absolutely no credible evidence. as an agnostic i presume you share that distaste?

if you can't tell the differene between believing something based on millions of man-years of peer-reviewed, cross referenced evidence based reasoning, research, experiment and reality and and believing something because it's comforting/in the holy book then fair enough; agnosticism is your only option. i would weigh up the arguments and choose the one that make most sense to me, and serves a s the most accurate model of the world around me.

the herd has fck all to do with it, though christians do refer to themselves as a flock.

Absolutely, I despise arrogance based on wild statements. I find much of religion spurious but I also find wild statements 'millions of man-years of peer-reviewed, cross referenced evidence based reasoning, research, experiment and reality' which is also far from the truth. Science has proven nothing except there is so much more we do not know and there are huge gaps in scientific and religious knowledge.

Ekancone

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

Absolutely, I despise arrogance based on wild statements. I find much of religion spurious but I also find wild statements 'millions of man-years of peer-reviewed, cross referenced evidence based reasoning, research, experiment and reality' which is also far from the truth. Science has proven nothing except there is so much more we do not know and there are huge gaps in scientific and religious knowledge.

I do worry about people, i really do...

eoin5

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

Absolutely, I despise arrogance based on wild statements. I find much of religion spurious but I also find wild statements 'millions of man-years of peer-reviewed, cross referenced evidence based reasoning, research, experiment and reality' which is also far from the truth. Science has proven nothing except there is so much more we do not know and there are huge gaps in scientific and religious knowledge.

In your opinion is there actually a way to know anything? What do we know and how do we find it to be true?

robindch

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

I despise arrogance based on wild statements. [...] Science has proven nothing

Hmmm....

Popinjay

And on that note, I think I'll head across to the "I've given up" thread. I'm by no means a scientist (I did Arts:o) but this reasoning that because the word 'theory' is in there, that means it's just guesswork is just upsetting me.

Junior Cert. Science should have done away with that mentality.

Carrigart Exile

Popinjay wrote: »

And on that note, I think I'll head across to the "I've given up" thread. I'm by no means a scientist (I did Arts:o) but this reasoning that because the word 'theory' is in there, that means it's just guesswork is just upsetting me.

Junior Cert. Science should have done away with that mentality.

chuckle, you guys are easily upset.

The point I am trying to make is that those who believe wholeheartedly without a shadow of doubt in either a scientific model or a religious model are equally basing that unshakable resolution on 'faith'. There are huge gaps in our scientific knowledge which are filled with presumption and 'calculated' guesswork.

Right now am away to post on 'where fools are 100% sure' board:D

dr.bollocko

If this is true, I just made a really bad god in a crowded elevator.