Atheism doubts?

Zombrex

helena.ryan wrote: »

No need to pick apart my words, you know what I mean.

Well no actually I don't.

If something is unexplained then what am I doubting? The unexplainidness of it?

stevejazzx

Well Helena, one would probably seem to be better off in thinking that something was a primary mover as otherwise we appear resolve to a mathamatical explanation for a begining which appears unsatisfactory because it lies outside the direct comprehension of so many of us. What that means is that any hyothesis for a begining is extremely hard to grasp as it confilcts with the notion of infinite regress - so imagining a being whose essence lies outside our rules of physics seems to be the only answer. A being who, quite simply, is not and cannot be explained by using earthly concepts. Perfect! well then that's the answer?...except that now scientists are begining to realise how the universe may have rapidly expanded (big bang theory) and are essentially certain on how stars and planets are/were formed. Part of the mystery therefore is diminishing albit very gradually. The greatest mystery is a starting point in time...as we play the movie of the history of the universe in reverse, everything (the basic laws of nature) seem to operate until we reach that point of ultimate begining at which stage they appear to break down. Hawking reckons the universe might just 'be' existing in respect of itself, self contained with no boundary for space time so no need to specify the behaviour of the boundary, hence no need to appeal for a primary mover. That's theoretical physics. That answer leads the (most diffcult) question:
Why is there something rather than nothing?
Here's an intersting article, well worth reading:
http://www.innerexplorations.com/chtheomortext/origin.htm

Now we are faced with a universe so big and so old that it defies our imaginations to grasp it. It appears to have begun 15 billion years ago. Our galaxy, alone, has some 100 billion stars, and it is just one of perhaps a 100 billion galaxies, and this immense universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate.

So we can look at it two ways:

1. Allow our awestruck imagination to postualte Gods becasue of our own shortcomings and inabilities in explaining our origins

2. Persevere with the scientifc method of slowly uncovering the truth.

It's easy and comforting to imagine a benefactor but it's a lot more mature to accept that legends must stay buried and that human advancement must prosper, not superstition. There is not one proven psychic to date. James Randi has a million dollars waiting for one. But none materialise. Juri Geller fooled everyone bending spoons. He was a fraud. James Hidrick appeared to moved things with the power of his mind, fooled half the world but he was a fraud. Not one single midreader from here to hollywood has ever been vindicated in a controlled test. They are universally all frauds - at best exremely slef dellusional. There is no magic and anything that appears paranoral may very well turn out to be perinormal, something once considered outside the realm of human ability or experiecne but which is now understood as an effect or force of nature. Ultimatley everything will have an explanation but our brains might well evolve way beyond our current state and a thousand years from now we might have a completely new set of rules and way of thiniking about existence.

Red Hand

No. I have wanted there to be something at times in my life, but no-I grew out of belief in the supernatural a long while ago.

lookinforpicnic

No, in the same way I never doubt that gravity will just suddenly disappear and i'll jet off to space like Mario, be cool though... I'd love an afterlife.

stereoroid

Personally, I see atheism as a much simpler proposition than any religion or dogma, and being of an Engineering mindset (studying Structual Engineering), simpler = better. My atheism is not built on a foundation of something else that might be shaky, which is where doubt could come in: it is founded on the earth and the universe, not on anything built by people. It's the religions and dogmas that are built on shaky man-made foundations, and will not survive the ages.

That doesn't mean I'm dogmatic about it: I would reconsider my position in the light of new Evidence, which is where it helps to be clear about what Evidence is not:
- the Bible, Koran, or other works of Man are not Evidence;
- written history is not Evidence;
- things people say are not Evidence. People can, and do, say anything to back up their beliefs.
- no, not even if those people are "authority figures": who gave them that "authority"? That's right... people. They might claim divine authority, but on what... Evidence?

The word for all that man-made stuff is Testimony. It's not Evidence unless it stands up on its own, independent of a particular observer, independent of our wishes and needs. For example: once you account for your position on surface of the Earth, the stars look the same to all observers, and are essentially unchanged throughout human history. They were there long before us, and will be there long after we are all gone. That indicates the general standard of Evidence that would make me reconsider my position: it had better be good! :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

still get my head around this whole idea of actually believing in god, its following religion is what people do, I dropped that no doubt.

Zamboni

None so far, though if the Hubble picks up an image of a long haired bearded dude with puppet strings attached to the Earth, I may doubt. :eek:

As for psychics, ghosts and suchlike, I think Derren Brown provides wonderful illustrations of the remarkable ability of the human mind to make mistakes.

Joe1919

Having the view "I might be wrong" is a very healthy view because you are still leaving the door open for new views and opinions. Why close your mind? Indeed, I would be completely in agreement with David Hume in describing myself as been too much of a sceptic to be a atheist.

I hate dogmatic and absolutist atheism as much as I hate dogmatic and absolutist religions.

We can never know for sure .We can only have our own opinions.

We still have to explain our own consciousness and give our lives some type of meaning, but doing this may not be in contradiction to atheism. Indeed we do transcend religion in most ways and most people, although they belong to a religious group, just get on with their lives. (This was one of Voltaire's themes in Candide)

I think some atheists fall into the trap of Reductionism (John Searle discusses some of this in his lecture at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3295448672203577230) in seeing all thought and mental phenomena completely in terms of the material and this can lead to confusion and the inability to distinguish between pleasure and happiness, good and bad, love and hate, etc.

I think Atheists can and should keep there minds open about everything and keep searching for meaning. ( I think the poet Thomas Hardy was a little like this, a sort of spiritual atheist or agnostic)
Being an Atheist does not necessarily mean being an Nihilist.

CerebralCortex

Joe1919 wrote: »

Having the view "I might be wrong" is a very healthy view because you are still leaving the door open for new views and opinions. Why close your mind? Indeed, I would be completely in agreement with David Hume in describing myself as been too much of a sceptic to be a atheist.

I hate dogmatic and absolutist atheism as much as I hate dogmatic and absolutist religions.

We can never know for sure .We can only have our own opinions.

We still have to explain our own consciousness and give our lives some type of meaning, but doing this may not be in contradiction to atheism. Indeed we do transcend religion in most ways and most people, although they belong to a religious group, just get on with their lives. (This was one of Voltaire's themes in Candide)

I think some atheists fall into the trap of Reductionism (John Searle discusses some of this in his lecture at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3295448672203577230) in seeing all thought and mental phenomena completely in terms of the material and this can lead to confusion and the inability to distinguish between pleasure and happiness, good and bad, love and hate, etc.

I think Atheists can and should keep there minds open about everything and keep searching for meaning. ( I think the poet Thomas Hardy was a little like this, a sort of spiritual atheist or agnostic)
Being an Atheist does not necessarily mean being an Nihilist.

Who are you trying to convince?

Dave!

What do you mean CerebralCortex?

CerebralCortex

DaveMcG wrote: »

What do you mean CerebralCortex?

I just think the post came of a little "have you thought about your beliefs really?". Its an atheist and agnostic forum.

ztoical

nope and I really did try when I was younger, went to mass, read the book, talked to the nuns and priests. Over the years I've made friends with people of all religions and faiths and I did the same with them, I asked questions, attended meetings/services/mass/insert whatever name you want for it and while I found them all to be interesting and I respected their choice in beliefs I couldn't force myself to believe something in my heart I knew to be untrue.

Wacker

I was once walking home from a friend's place baked out of my mind, and I had a really vivid premonition of spending the night in a cell. I figured that if that did end up happening, it would shake my lack of belief.
I got home fine. The end!

Whispered

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I just think the post came of a little "have you thought about your beliefs really?". Its an atheist and agnostic forum.

What do you mean?

Whispered

Wacker wrote: »

I was once walking home from a friend's place baked out of my mind, and I had a really vivid premonition of spending the night in a cell. I figured that if that did end up happening, it would shake my lack of belief.
I got home fine. The end!

CerebralCortex

helena.ryan wrote: »

What do you mean?

That wasn't directed at you Helena, maybe I just in a bad mood but joe1919's post is a bit preaching to the choir if you know what I mean. Of course being an atheist doesn't mean being a nihilist. I have a very open mind as an atheist far more I think than when I was a theist and I honestly believe atheists to be the most open minded because they continuosly question and depend on logic and reason. In my experience and opinion reasoning and logic knocks theism flat on its ass.

bogwalrus

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I just think the post came of a little "have you thought about your beliefs really?". Its an atheist and agnostic forum.

So an atheist or agnostic cant think about their beliefs? I think his point is fair, nice and philosophical.

someuser90

It would take a lot of credible evidence of supernatural events, for me to have doubts... and even then its so unlikely that said events would correspond to the opinions of the religious (idiots). It is equally likely that I would witness a flying pink unicorn, as it is likely that jebus or mohamed would appear.

RAmen.

CerebralCortex

bogwalrus wrote: »

So an atheist or agnostic cant think about their beliefs? I think his point is fair, nice and philosophical.

They sure can. I do all the time. It was nice and philosophical and at the time (as I said I was in a bad mood maybe) but it felt like wasted energy in a forum such as this. I apologise if it seems like I was attacking him or any other poster in this thread that wasn't my intent.

bogwalrus

i suppose for people who wouldnt normally post on this forum you have to take them with a pinch of salt as they like to get their views out not on just one topic but the whole idea of what atheism means to them. Like me a couple of weeks ago:D

Whispered

Oh right ok CerebralCortex I thought you were annoyed for me asking the question.

CerebralCortex

helena.ryan wrote: »

Oh right ok CerebralCortex I thought you were annoyed for me asking the question.

No your question is spot on I've no problem with it. I have a driving test next week I've already failed it before and I find myself thinking it would be nice to have something to pray to to get me through it. Maybe you could think good thoughts of me passing on tuesday morning

robindch

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I find myself thinking it would be nice to have something to pray to to get me through it.

While the existence or non-existence of a god or gods is an issue, it's just as important to consider whether it's actually useful to pray to a god. You could, after all, be irritating the deities by asking them to suspend the normal laws of physics or causality for your benefit!

Perhaps the time's better spent following the old Aesopian adage, that the gods help those who help themselves

CerebralCortex

robindch wrote: »

While the existence or non-existence of a god or gods is an issue, it's just as important to consider whether it's actually useful to pray to a god. You could, after all, be irritating the deities by asking them to suspend the normal laws of physics or causality for your benefit!

Perhaps the time's better spent following the old Aesopian adage, that the gods help those who help themselves

How about just thinking good thoughts god damn it?! (oops )

barongreen

Joe1919 wrote: »

Having the view "I might be wrong" is a very healthy view because you are still leaving the door open for new views and opinions. Why close your mind? Indeed, I would be completely in agreement with David Hume in describing myself as been too much of a sceptic to be a atheist.

I hate dogmatic and absolutist atheism as much as I hate dogmatic and absolutist religions.

We can never know for sure .We can only have our own opinions.

We still have to explain our own consciousness and give our lives some type of meaning, but doing this may not be in contradiction to atheism. Indeed we do transcend religion in most ways and most people, although they belong to a religious group, just get on with their lives. (This was one of Voltaire's themes in Candide)

I think some atheists fall into the trap of Reductionism (John Searle discusses some of this in his lecture at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3295448672203577230) in seeing all thought and mental phenomena completely in terms of the material and this can lead to confusion and the inability to distinguish between pleasure and happiness, good and bad, love and hate, etc.

I think Atheists can and should keep there minds open about everything and keep searching for meaning. ( I think the poet Thomas Hardy was a little like this, a sort of spiritual atheist or agnostic)
Being an Atheist does not necessarily mean being an Nihilist.

Simplicity,
The human mind has developed and evolved to cope with harsher times in our history, we are pre programmed to believe in a higher being.
The need to be absolved, protected, guided, etc. is what ultimately lead every civilization toward religion, deities, worship and so on. Basically the problem of controlling your environment created religion and civilization.

A god filled in the patchy bits...... god created it.... God can make it rain.....god will save us..........god can destroy us.............pray to the God/sun/mountain.

Now that we all know everything we still try an seek out the higher power in everything.

Searching for that higher answer even among people that believe in atheistic is evidence enough in the human condition that we are not alone and we are not utterly extingushed when we die.

Is this not what is at the core of what makes an atheist not doubt himself?

Would i be right in saying that agnostic better describes helena and Joe 1999

Bottle_of_Smoke

I have the odd urge to pray when I'm going through something very stressful. I think Freud would call it a regression. When I was younger I did genuinely believed God existed & did pray(twas very comforting too) It's annoying though because I can't pray to something I don't believe is there. Have actually tried in the past I must admit.

I think Humans are naturally predisposed to believing nothing comes from nothing, and if you read "the mother of all burquas" chapter in The God Delusion(best part of a fairly disappointing book) it explains why evolution seems so ludicrous if you don't understand the basic mechanics. So I'd imagine most peopel have doubts,

However, one of my friends was brought up Agnostic, he doesn't seem to have any doubts in his disbelief in a God. I'm not really sure if its from being brought up that way or just that he never believed.

Anyway just got accepted into college without prayer. Almost completely off topic but I'm going to bed & wanted to tell people!

Goodnight!

Whispered

someuser90 wrote: »

It would take a lot of credible evidence of supernatural events, for me to have doubts... and even then its so unlikely that said events would correspond to the opinions of the religious (idiots).

Igonring the idiot bit, I agree with you in that if there is something there it is most likely something we as humans can't really grasp. See I have a problem with the fact that as a person who believes we can't possibly know enough to discount ANYTHING, I often get lumped into the same bracket as die hard religious fanatics.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

No your question is spot on I've no problem with it. I have a driving test next week I've already failed it before and I find myself thinking it would be nice to have something to pray to to get me through it. Maybe you could think good thoughts of me passing on tuesday morning

I think in the case of something like a driving test, being a believer could very well help. If you believe god will help you, you will go into the test feeling so much more confident which helps. Not that "god" is doing anything, it's just the belief. Anyway good thoughts going your way - not that you'll appreciate them!

barongreen wrote: »

Would i be right in saying that agnostic better describes helena and Joe 1999

I'm not an athiest. If agnostic describes the refusal to discount anything then I suppose you're right. I'm sitting on the fence so to speak.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Anyway just got accepted into college without prayer. Almost completely off topic but I'm going to bed & wanted to tell people!

Goodnight!

Congratulations

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN - I just created my first multi-quote reply. :D:D Thank you Dades.

Dades

helena.ryan wrote: »

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN - I just created my first multi-quote reply. :D:D Thank you Dades.

No stopping you now!

CerebralCortex

helena.ryan wrote: »

.... I think in the case of something like a driving test, being a believer could very well help. If you believe god will help you, you will go into the test feeling so much more confident which helps. Not that "god" is doing anything, it's just the belief. Anyway good thoughts going your way - not that you'll appreciate them! .....[/SIZE][/SIZE][/I]

Of course I appreciate them I can feel them already

lostexpectation

its not about not discounting things its about basing things on the evidence we have.

two completely different things,

okay so your a bit of hippie we get it, thats fine