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Develope A Website, anyone ?

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  • 01-02-2008 11:20pm
    #1
    The Snapper
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭


    Need new company website developed, what are the pitfalls things to note etc.
    also. anyone interested PM please :)


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    #2
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    The pitfalls are not knowing what you want.

    Figure out exactly what you want - for example, find a website it should be like - a document everything so the designer knows what you expect.

    Basically, provide as much information as possible.


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    #3
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    pitfalls = ...

    going with the cheapest option in a lot of cases ...
    50 quid and I'll have your website up and running mr. :D

    research any company you are going to get to design you online presence ...

    Find out exactly what they are offering ...

    If you're not paying a lot don't expect a lot (sorry but domain / hosting / template / development / SEO / online advertising campaign .. doesn't just = 200 quid)

    It shocks me all the time that people will spend 500 - 1000 quid for a tiny advert in a newspaper running for 1 day .. yet they flinch at seeing a quote for 1 - 5k for a website which gives them so much more .. pretty much 24/7 advertising ..


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    #4
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I disagree.

    I didn''t do the design for the website staff.ie. I outsourced it.

    Guess how much?

    $200.

    Outsourcing does work, but you gotta find the right people...


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    #5
    Webmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭Webmonkey


    dublindude wrote: »
    I disagree.

    I didn''t do the design for the website staff.ie. I outsourced it.

    Guess how much?

    $200.

    Outsourcing does work, but you gotta find the right people...
    Did that include coding? - because it isn't a site that needs much design - Business site might be a different ballgame


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    #6
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    so you've got ...

    Researching / finding / sourcing people to do the developement for you (yes it can be as simple as going to elance and posting ) they have a posting fee of 20 quid don't they ? (or something similar or a % ?? )

    Project management time on the project

    Template design ????

    Coding the site

    Your own development time ?

    SEO / Link Building

    200$ = 135 EUR at the moment

    now lets take out the 20 quid posting fee ? and you're left with 120 or so (rough guesstimate)

    to develop something like staff.ie ... market it ... design a "proper" template for it and so on would take me quite a bit of time. I can't afford to live for 120 EUR a week or less I'm afraid ... so that'd rule me out and to customers like that I would have to wish them all the best with their project ... and hope it would work out for them.


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    #7
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    $5 finders fee, so $205 in total.

    Yes there was some time telling them what I wanted, but it would be the same with an Irish, British or Mongolian.

    I coded it myself and outsourced the design. I probably could have outsourced the code for ~$800 (developing a jobsite isn't straightforward.)

    Anyway, my point is consider outsourcing. It's cheap.


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    #8
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    dublindude wrote: »
    I disagree.

    I didn''t do the design for the website staff.ie. I outsourced it.

    Guess how much?

    $200.

    Outsourcing does work, but you gotta find the right people...

    ok I think I miss read your post originally

    What were you disagreeing with ?

    Website developed doesn't mean getting a template and banging it onto a site...

    Yes you can get cheap templates ... you can get a logo for 0+ :)


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    #9
    Webmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭Webmonkey


    You get what you pay for too - your site design is simple and doesn't require much graphic work or anything.

    I know you got the logo done for €50 by some Aussie girl or someone - is that included in the 200


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    #10
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    Webmonkey wrote: »
    I know you got the logo done for €50 by some Aussie girl or someone - is that included in the 200

    They weren't a fan of the O'Reilly books were they by any chance :D


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    #11
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    They didn't use a template. It's an original design.

    The logo, I have loads of them :) Please exclude the logo from the $200.

    Forbairt: My disagreement is with your suggestion that a website for 1-5k shouldn't be flinced at :) I have no problem - and understand the value - in getting your website designed and developed by an Irish company, but I am a strong believer in outsourcing.


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    #12
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    forbairt wrote: »
    They weren't a fan of the O'Reilly books were they by any chance :D

    Yeah it's very O'Reillyish! That was actually my job spec for the logo :)


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    #13
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    dublindude wrote: »
    They didn't use a template. It's an original design.

    You have proof ? :) (similar to do I have proof my site isn't a template no apart from my word)
    dublindude wrote: »
    The logo, I have loads of them :) Please exclude the logo from the $200.

    Already the cost has started to increase ...
    dublindude wrote: »
    Forbairt: My disagreement is with your suggestion that a website for 1-5k shouldn't be flinced at :) I have no problem - and understand the value - in getting your website designed and developed by an Irish company, but I am a strong believer in outsourcing.

    Why didn't you outsource the coding as well ? :) (curious ... as well as being stubborn) ...

    I fixed up this site before christmas ... included the logo design slightly based on their old design http://www.awomansheartgalway.com/ ... included domain name and hosting it for them as well through blacknight ... (did it all for free so c&c can be taken on board based on that hopefully ... )

    Would I do the same for a business ... not on your life :)
    I'm out to make a living out of this for myself ... I'm not into project management / outsourcing as such ...
    (what ever happened to guaranteed irish and all that :D)

    I did recommend the OP shop around and see whats out there ...

    In ireland at the moment you can generally get a site developed for around 500 quid plus ...

    I still have to ask how much staff.ie cost you ... we're on 135ish eur add on hosting and a domain name ... and we're up to probably 100 at least given its been there for a year or two ... ... how much time did you spend coding it .. and what is your going rate ... how much time did you spend marketing it ? and what is your going rate for that ?

    135 + 100 = 235 EUR ... and we've not counted your own time yet ... so my 1k figure isn't that far off .. still a good bit ... but ... anyways

    its late ... I've just had a beer ... and I've been up since 5 so I'm not at my best ... (sorry if I'm coming off a bit strong .. I just don't see what is wrong with the what I originally posted :D )


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    #14
    Webmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭Webmonkey


    I'm blinded by smiley faces :)


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    #15
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    Webmonkey wrote: »
    I'm blinded with smiley faces :)

    :( <-- there .. have a frowney :)

    you didn't mention the .'s ... <-- :D


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    #16
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I'm genuinely not trying to argue with your Forbairt. As I said, I have no problem with people using Irish companies (in fact, I'm a fan of supporting local businesses.) But I like outsourcing...

    OK to answer your questions:

    My site definitely isn't a template. I told them exactly what I wanted. Outsourcing only works (smoothly) if you tell them exactly what you want.

    I didn't outsource the coding as I'm a fairly experienced coder (13+ years.)

    I'm with you on the "how much did staff.ie REALLY cost you" question. :) I've spent years thinking about it and developing it. So we're talking thousands of hours of time. However the software is so cool (I have AI which automatically ranks each job application) that it can't really be compared to a normal site...

    I think if you had the site planned out the way you wanted it, you could outsource it for at least half the price of an Irish company. Where I'm with you is this: how many people know what they really want? Not a lot, probably... but if you know what you're doing, outsourcing is the way to go...


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    #17
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Dublindude, outsourcing a [functional but] not very remarkable design (sorry) for a website you're planning on coding, promoting and maintaining yourself is not the same as an otherwise offline business looking to create a new promotional website.

    I'd have to agree with forbairt that the amount of time and skill you've presumably put into your websites yourself sort of nullifies your "$200" argument.

    And the "ah sure just outsource the design.. it'll be cheap and easy!" kind of advice is exactly the sort of pitfall which the OP should avoid, unless they honestly know a good deal about what they're doing.


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    #18
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    dublindude wrote: »
    I think if you had the site planned out the way you wanted it, you could outsource it for at least half the price of an Irish company. Where I'm with you is this: how many people know what they really want? Not a lot, probably... but if you know what you're doing, outsourcing is the way to go...

    I guess I'm coming from the point of view that I'm a bit of a jack of all trades ( is this a good / bad thing ? yes / no :D ) I'm also slightly intimidated by the opening market .. eastern europe has been with us a while but when China gets more into things that a HELL of a lot of potential "webdesigners" I'd like to see some sort of loyalty to ireland.

    I also think there are a LOT of cowboys out there in ireland and I've seen some complete muck ... but I also think there are a lot of REALLY good developers / designers there as well. Unfortunately ireland = an expensive place hence prices you're going to pay are generally more than asking someone in romania to do it for you but you get someone you can potentially phone up and say .. sorry thats not working for me can you change it ... and you can always call over .. even if its a few hours away

    I was recently up in belfast to meet a client and they were very happy I went there ... it took I think maybe 15 - 25 minutes for them to tell me what they wanted / how it worked ... but out of it they had a face to face meeting and its always a plus knowing who you are dealing with ... not just "ELiTDisNr4 .. accepts western bank tranfers" ( if he turns out to be an actual person .. SORRY :D )


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    #19
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    Goodshape wrote: »
    And the "ah sure just outsource the design.. it'll be cheap and easy!" kind of advice is exactly the sort of pitfall which the OP should avoid, unless they honestly know a good deal about what they're doing.

    +1 unless they really know what they are doing ... or are prepared to get badly burnt


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    #20
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    Goodshape wrote:
    Etc.

    I disagree. I have advised a number of companies on outsourcing their needs and it worked out fine.

    I would agree, in general, that outsourcing requires a certain technical knowledge (or cop on.) With proper planning ("make it like this") you can save a lot of money.


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    #21
    nobodythere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭nobodythere


    dublindude wrote: »
    Outsourcing does work, but you gotta find the right people...

    Vietnamese children eh? :)


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    #22
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    dublindude wrote: »
    I disagree. I have advised a number of companies on outsourcing their needs and it worked out fine.

    Advised for free ?


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    #23
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    grasshopa wrote: »
    Vietnamese children eh? :)

    their small fingers mean you can fit twice as many keys on the keyboard ... :)


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    #24
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    forbairt wrote: »
    Advised for free ?

    Honestly? It depends.

    In my day job I work with companies in China who test our products. Basically I manage the outsourcing of our testing. So for this, I obviously get paid...

    As regards posts on boards.ie; I'm always honest. I'm not motivated by making money, so I will always say what I believe.

    EDIT: My recruitment websites are money losers. But I love them, so I'll always keep them going.


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    #25
    forbairt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭forbairt


    I'd find I'm pretty honest as well ... in most posts / emails ...

    hosting - 35 quid
    domain - 10 quid
    using that one click wordpress install 1 touch of a button and for the most part free (may have to set up a database first)

    Cost to setup a website ... 45 quid ... can you do it cheaper ... possibley / probably

    getting a template ... of you go to http://www.oswd.org/

    total cost so far your time ... (honestly figuring out all this I'd probably say 2 - 3 days for a non techy person) ??? I could be wrong but I've had support calls from people wanting to know how to download a file from a website .. click file .... it asks you to save it ... :D ...

    Edit: I should also so .. having someone to tell you how to do all this ... (free if you're reading this post) I find if you don't know how to do this .. then you REALLY don't know how to do this hence I mention figures of 1 - 5 k


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    #26
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I worked for 4 years during college in AOL tech support. Believe me, the public and computers... scary ****!!

    I once had a man from the circus crying on the phone because the laptop he kept in a suitcase had a virus, even though it had never been online :(


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    #27
    DJB
    Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭DJB


    Right, I'm with both forbairt and dublindude on this one. Although... Yes, dublindude, outsourcing is good way of doing things if you know what you are doing. There's no point suggesting to the OP to outsource parts of the web design project if they don't know where to start when putting it all together.

    Unless you've actually run a web project or website, how are they going to understand (or have an in depth knowledge of) good design techniques, usability issues, standard based coding, css layouts, dom scripting, page layout, content structuring, content for search engines, seo, link building, hosting, etc. This is why companies go to professionals like forb and me, or web design companies - because we have the experience in the field and we know what we are talking about. They are purchasing our experience and putting their trust in us to provide them with a high quality service.

    And guess what - our prices reflect that experience. Not in bad way but if you want a job done and want it done right, we can provide that service. I'm not saying you can't get that done elsewhere for cheaper but usually cheaper means less experience, sometimes quality, knowledge, etc. Personally web projects I get involved in range from 3k up to 15k or so.

    Forb, I'm fully with you on this one. Especially you're point on comparing an ad in the newspaper to the price of a website. You get much more value for money for your website and with the right marketing, you can get just as much exposure with it.

    My advice to the OP:

    - Do a search for web design companies in google or if you'd like recommendations of professionals/companies I think provide a good quality service just ask.
    - Have a look through their portfolio and see if their style is what you are looking for. Most designers have a particular style and it is a good basis for what your project may turn out like.
    - Also look for sites you do like that you can provide to your chosen developer so they have an idea of what you have in mind.
    - Draw up a basic spec such as site map, aim of the website, target market, small brief about the company, etc.
    - Pick 2/3 companies you like and send them the spec. At that point you could probably arrange to meet with them to discuss your needs. This meeting is good for the client and the provider so you get a good feel for what each is like and more questions can be asked. Usually my first meeting gives me all I need to find out what the client needs, gives me an opportunity to explain how I can fit with their plan and benefit their business, etc.

    Pitfalls to look out for - choosing the wrong designer. I advise staying away from designers too cheap. From experience, you don't always get a good quality product at the end of it. Compare the portfolios - this will really help you in making the right choice.

    For a brochure website with design, xhtml/css/js programming, website set up, content formatting, search engine optimisation, hosting, etc. don't be shocked if you get prices ranging anywhere from 2k to 10k depending on the company you talk to.

    Anyway, hope that helps and if you want recommendations, just shout!

    [my friday evening rant over now :)]

    Rgds, Dave


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    #28
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    For the record, I don't offer a website design or coding service.


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    #29
    DJB
    Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭DJB


    Never said you did!


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    #30
    louie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭louie


    I thimk the OP was left out in this tread, but nice reading...


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    #31
    Laslo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 831 ✭✭✭Laslo


    dublindude wrote: »
    I didn't outsource the coding as I'm a fairly experienced coder (13+ years.)

    That's not fairly experienced, that's very experienced (in terms of time anyway). So pray tell, Mr. Fairly Experienced Coder, why is your website a mish-mash of tables and font tags? No offence, but you're hardly in a position to have any kind of a take on what constitutes professional Web design. Tell me that staff.ie was built 6 years ago and we might let this one go...


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