Develope A Website, anyone ?

forbairt

DJB wrote: »

Pitfalls to look out for - choosing the wrong designer. I advise staying away from designers too cheap. From experience, you don't always get a good quality product at the end of it. Compare the portfolios - this will really help you in making the right choice.

I'd have to second this ... last year in some cases I was the designer doing things too cheap ... but we learn from our mistakes

Too cheap = how many other clients do they have at the same time and how much time are you going to be allotted.

Too cheap can also mean someone trying to get a bit of recognition ..

I've had customers who have blown their budget on "CRAP" designers and had an extremely poor return from their websites. They've then come looking for someone to do damage control as they can't afford a proper design.

Hence designers portfolio is key when choosing. Their portfolio may may also not match your needs for example ... someone who develops mainly portal sites may not be good at developing a nice business website or vice versa. See if they've anything along the lines of what you want.

If you do end up in a situation where you don't get to meet the designer ... make sure you've got recommendations of them from others. A % is common to pay up front I think David had a nice post on that before on a thread on here. 20% upfront I believe ... 20% on another milestone .. 20 on another then a nice 40% chunk on completion.

You can't after all expect the developer / designer to complete a project without any payment.

A few of these have already been covered by davids post (or possibley all )

- Know what you want research a little recently had one customer tell me they don't know what they want but they'll know it when they see it (this is a great help and ends up wasting WAY too much of my time)

- provide vector logo (if possible)
(if you don't have a logo maybe the company can help on this ... maybe not)

- provide basic site map and content

- If providing imagery please note it must be of decent quality. The amount of people I get giving me 200pixel images who want me to turn it into 600pixels image with a strong impact on the site is crazy.

- On a similar note if its an online shop ... provide high quality imagery .. if you can't do them yourself find someone or study a bit and make up a small photo studio corner ... Alternatively we may be able to recommend someone ... the majority of times it won't be cheap though.

- provide 2 - 3 example sites that you like (its a great way to judge what you like and what you don't ... you are the customer but you aren't always right ... well'll be able to provide better input on it) (by we I mean web designers / developers / graphics people)

- decide if you want to take control of the site ... will you need a CMS (content management system) or are you happy to have the company you are dealing with provide updates (will involve a support contract ... but would hopefully result in better layout of content / headers / footers / images)
(you'll also pay a bit more normally for a CMS)

- Take out a support contract with the company ... the web is BIG business ... if you can't afford your own web designer / developer ... take out a support contract with the company you are dealing with. THey'll provide priority support .. updates to software and so on. A lot of people get scared away by support contracts ... the basic wage of someone for a year is what ... compare that to a couple of hundred / thousand (depending on what you're getting) .. you're getting skilled labour at your disposal

- One of the most important is ... Have a timeline ...
When do you need this completed by
Expect some delays on release date so maybe aim to get it done ahead of schedule.
(for example I've been sick last weekend to wednesday this week ... and was completely out of sorts so haven't had the most productive week)

All just points to get this thread back on track ...
As I already said you can do it yourself for 45 quid ...
will it look professional ... probably not ... will it be fast ... probably not ... will you have fun doing it ? that'll depend on you ...

forbairt

Re the whole pricing and how much you'll pay ... and whether to outsource or not ...

If you consider a website will take a week to make ?
- Phone calls / Requirements planning
- Mockup Graphics / Design
- W3 compliant Template
- SEO
- Domain name
- Hosting
- Setting up email accounts
- various other bits and bobs

Now the minimum wage in ireland is 8.65 ?? or something like that at the moment ?

If a website takes 40 hours to make for an experienced professional ...

A minimum wage employee at a rate of 8.65 working on it for 1 week would cost you 345 euro at least
Honestly not sure if you'll get fries and a drink with it or not.

So I used the bracket 500 eur + ... with 1k - 5k for a website as a guideline.

AARRRGH

Laslo wrote: »

why is your website a mish-mash of tables and font tags? No offence, but you're hardly in a position to have any kind of a take on what constitutes professional Web design. Tell me that staff.ie was built 6 years ago and we might let this one go...

LOL

Let's have a look at the index page -

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.staff.ie&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

This Page Is Valid HTML 4.0 Transitional!

Now let's have a look at the search results -

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.staff.ie%2Fjobs.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

This Page Is Valid HTML 4.0 Transitional!

The design is well structured and valid. How many other websites can say that?

Laslo is making the mistake a lot of nerds make. They get caught up in the little (irrelevant) details and miss the bigger picture. My design is simple, friendly and valid, and 99.99999999% of the sites users don't care whether I'm using tables or CSS.

Laslo wrote:

That's not fairly experienced, that's very experienced (in terms of time anyway). So pray tell, Mr. Fairly Experienced Coder

There have been programmers since the 60's? That's nearly 50 years of programming, so 13 years of coding is "fairly experienced". I don't know what your issue is really.

aidan_walsh

anyone interested PM please

Please read the charter. Recruitment is to be kept to adverts.ie.

heggie

don't want to get involved in the bitching, but dublindude, you clearly undervalue design, and in my opinion, that was 200 wasted. You have no clear design, grid or any aesthetically pleasing aspect of that website, and it looks like a coder rather than designer put that together.

AARRRGH

Fair enough (you're entitled to your opinion, etc.) Everyone has a different opinion on what makes a nice design. For example, I have received a lot of feedback saying the opposite of your opinion!

IMO simple and clean is the best design.

Do you work for an Irish web design company?

PS I think it's a bit petty to say I clearly undervalue design just because we have different opinions on what makes a nice design

heggie

simple and clean is a good principle, doenst mean you should ignore proven design practices. I run my own studio, not touting for business, but I just have to correct people who think 200 is enough of a budget for design. Contrary to what people think, good design is not subjective.

staff.ie is far from bad. but shouldn't be hailed as design perfection resulting from outsourcing

AARRRGH

I never said it was (an example of perfection from outsourcing.)

You're actually the first person who has ever complained about the design. Most people like it. Certainly most people I think would disagree that there is nothing aesthetically pleasing about it.

Anyway. My original point way up in the thread was 1 - 5k for a website design can be balked at. With the dollar being so cheap at the moment (and with there being no VAT when purchasing from the US) you can get lovely cheap design even by outsouring to the US...

heggie

IF they understand the target market, and thats a big if, would probably make more sense that you can get cheaper coding, as valid code is valid code

AARRRGH

Valid design isn't valid design?

Seriously, what design differences are there between US (or whereever) and Irish sites?

Just so we're clear now, you're an Irish company who offers web design (and not code), right? The reason I ask is because you are going to be extremely biased here. I don't have anything to gain by giving my opinion.

Webmonkey

Dublindude I understand what you are saying regarding outsourcing alright but that is only for the experienced person who knows what they are looking for.
I'm guessing the OP wouldn't know the first place to look for a designer not to mind what they want.

People will judge a lot by looking at a company site - if it isn't good and done cheaply then the chances are it will not look good. But that doesn't mean everyone that does sites cheap, don't design well - but these individuals can be difficult to find.

Staff.ie is a different type of site altogether from what a business site would look like. In my opinion - a lot more work in design has to go into a company web site.

AARRRGH

I agree outsourcing does require a certain amount of cop on, and I can see the value in getting a local company to do the job for you.

People here (e.g. Irish webdesign companies) have a tendency to dismiss outsourcing because it is a threat to their business. IMO this is not a valid argument so I will always try to balance things out a bit. The Irish hosting companies are guilty of this too.

The poor OP asked a simple question and it escalated into a bitch fest

CuLT

Webmonkey wrote: »

Staff.ie is a different type of site altogether from what a business site would look like. In my opinion - a lot more work in design has to go into a company web site.

I would tend to agree here, but I think it's likely that people are mincing their words and making a dog's dinner out of this whole thread.

A brick and mortar company's web presence should be a visual reflection of the corporate identity; hence why, as you put it, "the design" gets much more time/effort than that of a web application (which staff.ie is).

This line of thought though only applies in cases where a company has no intention of branching out to the Internet as another portal for their business, and rather just wants it as an "information kiosk" of sorts.

A web developer is more likely to scoff at this than a web designer simply because the web developer doesn't have much creative input in such a situation. The reverse also applies to the web designer when the web application, what it does and how it does it are the primary focus.

Webmonkey

Yeah I do agree - I do web design myself though just as a freelancer.

Yeah the poor OP won't know what he started - anyways think we've reached end of this

AARRRGH

Webmonkey wrote: »

Yeah the poor OP won't know what he started - anyways think we've reached end of this

Maybe someone can insult my mother so we can bring things off on another tangent

PS Good post CuLT

Webmonkey

dublindude wrote: »

Maybe someone can insult my mother so we can bring things off on another tangent

heggie

dublindude wrote: »

Just so we're clear now, you're an Irish company who offers web design (and not code), right? The reason I ask is because you are going to be extremely biased here. I don't have anything to gain by giving my opinion.

I offer design & code, again, I'm not pimping my business, infact coming from someone who mentioned their site repeatedly in this thread, thats a bit rich.

forbairt

dublindude wrote: »

I agree outsourcing does require a certain amount of cop on, and I can see the value in getting a local company to do the job for you.

People here (e.g. Irish webdesign companies) have a tendency to dismiss outsourcing because it is a threat to their business. IMO this is not a valid argument so I will always try to balance things out a bit. The Irish hosting companies are guilty of this too.

The poor OP asked a simple question and it escalated into a bitch fest

Honey ... I'm Home !!!


OK I've skipped a few posts ... as its saturday I'm having a beer (again EEK!!!) and heading to a party in a while when I've finished a bit of work .... (so I may disappear without responding)


This thread drags on and on on a completely different topic ...
( I don't think its degenerated into a bitch fest as such yet ... more a heated argument )



The Original Poster asked to have a website developed ... not just designed.

To me this means something having dealt with various clients who's asked me to develop a website for them.

It means Make me a website I will probably supply you with content and images and some feedback apart from that guide me and take care of it all so I don't have to (cus I'm busy making money)

Fine we've now got

- Domain Name
- Hosting
- Design
- Template
- Fixing up Various Pages
- Custom Graphics
- Custom Imagery (sourcing of images)
- Custom Coding and features
- Potentially a Logo
- Search Engine Optimization


- Domain 10 - 50 quid (IE)
- Hosting - 50 quid
- You said the Design cost you 200 quid outsourced
- Getting the template made up will probably cost you another 200 quid
Custom Logo ? (maybe / maybe not) I've seen some attrocious logos people have and have recommended they rebrand themselves ... some take it onboard some don't ... I've done in it some cases ... they've gotten others to do it.
- Custom graphics / imagery for each of the pages
- Putting it all together


Staff.ie ... I like in some ways ... I don't like in others ... (but thats not at question here similar the table designs question .. won't mean a lot to a business person or a programmer a lot of time)
Its not a business website that has to wow visitors ... its a functional website that has to adhere to certain usability guidelines.


Now ... we're on around 500 quid at least without taking into account the guys time to figure out how to put it all together.

Lets have a think about the legal implications of it now ... ooh its been designed by someone and they've told us its unique ... I paid with pay pal ... ... is that a signed contract ? ... am I dealing with a company who have done the design ? (possibley ... possibley not) ...

Getty Images and various other image banks at the moment have various bots crawling the web looking for their images so ... when you find that the woman in the nice dress that added a nice feel to your website is actually copyright of them and you're being handed a bill for £1600 for that images illegal use on your site ... you may think oh I'll just say I didn't know ... maybe it works .. maybe it doesn't ... the legal battle goes on ... over a number of months and in the end ... they can't track this person down ... do you pay the fine or do you go to court ? ... up to you..
[Why I mention this ... I've one customer who supplied me with a "design" and it turns out 1 of the images may end up costing them 1.6K sterling - The "designers" response was ... oh just tell them I got it from google Images *rotfl*]


So we're back to the original figure I quoted of €1 - 5K€ to have someone manage all this for you ... who you can meet with ... who just handles things ... guides you and lets you get on with business. Worth it? I'd like to think so. Am I biased ... I'd like to think not ... I tend to tell my customers how it is .. and what they are getting ... its up to them to decide if they want to go with me for the job.

Trojan

I believe that Dublindude quoting figures of one and two hundred euros is leading people astray: he is valueing his own input of hours of project management and programming at €0 - that is unrealistic for any commercial project without a programmer and PM who will work for no fees.

forbairt

Trojan wrote: »

I believe that Dublindude quoting figures of one and two hundred euros is leading people astray: he is valueing his own input of hours of project management and programming at €0 - that is unrealistic for any commercial project without a programmer and PM who will work for no fees.

He did already mention this ...

dublindude wrote: »

I'm with you on the "how much did staff.ie REALLY cost you" question. I've spent years thinking about it and developing it. So we're talking thousands of hours of time. However the software is so cool (I have AI which automatically ranks each job application) that it can't really be compared to a normal site...

thousands = more than 2 ... so the minimum wage in ireland = 8.65 or something like that ??

2000 x 8.65 = 17300 EUR ... + 205 ( 200 + 5 fee to post :P ) ... + logo design (didn't mention the cost of that I think ) = 17505+ already ... You really should have outsourced the coding on the project you could have had it for 200 quid (joke) (ok sorry I couldn't resist)

BostonB

Some people appreciate good design and what it achieves, and thus are prepared to pay for it. Other people either don't get it, or don't appreciate the value added. Also some people don't like the same design as other people. However the design of a website doesn't need to appeal to the client or the designer/developer. It only needs to attract and work for the target audience. You can put metrics on how successful a design is, by getting feedback from the users of the site.

With most things if you get a range of quotes and see examples of work, and talk to previous customers. Thats the best way to find out how much what you (indeed your users) want costs.

You can apply that to other things than just websites.

AARRRGH

heggie wrote: »

I offer design & code, again, I'm not pimping my business, infact coming from someone who mentioned their site repeatedly in this thread, thats a bit rich.

Oh come on, my site was mentioned as an example of an outsourced piece of work. I never said you are trying to pimp your business. I just wanted to know your position (i.e. is your opinion based on you having a business which is threatened by outsourcing) so I know where your opinion is coming from. That's not an unreasonable request.

I've said this loads of times already... I can see the value in having a local business develop your website (the main one being they're in the same legal jurisdiction), but IMO, with a bit of cop on, you can outsource the coding and design for a fraction of what it would cost to use a local company. You can either detail your exact requirements and the designers/programmers will work off that, or you can "not really know what you want" and let the designers/programmers make the decisions for you. Just like if you'd used a local company.

Everything an Irish company does can be outsourced...

Could the people who respond to this state whether they are an Irish company offering web design or coding?

Full disclosure: it's not in my interest to promote outsourcing (I'm a coder.)

forbairt

dublindude wrote: »

Could the people who respond to this state whether they are an Irish company offering web design or coding?

Full disclosure: it's not in my interest to promote outsourcing (I'm a coder.)

Sole trader ... offering coding / graphics / design / template / donkeys ... GET your donkeys ... ( and with that I'm away to a party a bit late)

BostonB

dublindude wrote: »

...

Everything an Irish company does can be outsourced......

Should that be a "local company"?

There are value added in having a local company. You're in the same time zone, should have easier communications, and you should be able to meet in person etc. There nothing wrong with outsourcing if it works for you. Sometimes outsourcing works sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes all the cost saved are lost in other ways. Horse for courses.

AARRRGH

Outsourcing does have its negative points alright. As you say, timezone differences, language differences, and even cultural differences. However I would consider these to be fairly minor.

Outsourcing isn't for everyone, but if cost is a factor, it can't be beaten.

I'd be very worried if I worked in something like localisation or tech support. There is no need for these jobs to be in Ireland. They're going to be outsourced sooner or later. This sucks, but it's just the way the world is going.

Outsourcing website design? IMO it's going to become more common. I'd be surprised if the concept of outsourcing isn't a large part of MBA's and MBS's these days.

I'm going wildly off topic now. Maybe we should have a seperate thread somewhere about outsourcing...

heggie

there was a very good thread over at creativeireland last year about the pros and cons of outsourcing, and I don't dispute that just because design is outsourced it's any less quality, it's more the 200 budget that I was talking about. I really don't think outsourcing is threatening the design industry here, as a face to face meeting is very benefitial.

The Snapper

Thanks for your advise guys, not to mention entertainment.

Just back home but its late and I'm off to bed. So, I'll check back tomorrow when I'm capable of reading and comprehending.

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Please read the charter. Recruitment is to be kept to adverts.ie.

Sorry for that won't happen again.:o

Laslo

dublindude wrote: »

LOL

Let's have a look at the index page -

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.staff.ie&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

This Page Is Valid HTML 4.0 Transitional!

Now let's have a look at the search results -

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.staff.ie%2Fjobs.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

This Page Is Valid HTML 4.0 Transitional!

The design is well structured and valid. How many other websites can say that?

Laslo is making the mistake a lot of nerds make. They get caught up in the little (irrelevant) details and miss the bigger picture. My design is simple, friendly and valid, and 99.99999999% of the sites users don't care whether I'm using tables or CSS.



There have been programmers since the 60's? That's nearly 50 years of programming, so 13 years of coding is "fairly experienced". I don't know what your issue is really.

You're actually dead right. Web standards mean nothing and I'm just a nerd. Good luck mate.

AARRRGH

Laslo wrote: »

Web standards mean nothing and I'm just a nerd.

Jobs.ie was bought for at least 3.5 million. Do you think it mattered whether they used CSS or tables? No, it didn't matter whatsoever.

The important thing is getting your product across to as many people as possible. Yes, part of that includes making sure your website displays correctly in all browsers. There are many ways to do this. I chose the tables route. So what? It works fine. No one, except CSS nerds, will notice or care about this.

The product, not the process, is what's important.

To quote Brody Sweeney: One of the biggest mistakes I made when I started O'Brien's Sandwich Bar was to focus on the details I felt were important, but which no one else noticed...

Sully

DJB wrote: »

My advice to the OP:

- Do a search for web design companies in google or if you'd like recommendations of professionals/companies I think provide a good quality service just ask.

Or post on Adverts.ie. Google is your friend, but "web design" is a very strong keyword. Boards.ie has some talented freelancers and companies that do this posting on Boards.

Have a look through their portfolio and see if their style is what you are looking for. Most designers have a particular style and it is a good basis for what your project may turn out like.

Agreed. A lot of local companies here seem to use the same template, but use different colours or move things around. However, not everyone is the same. Should be easily spotted in the portfolio.

Also look for sites you do like that you can provide to your chosen developer so they have an idea of what you have in mind.

Excellent idea. Not just for coding but for design to. Im working on a local hotels website, and they have provided up front content and a list of websites they liked and colours they dont like. This helps build a website to their exact requirements while still being professional and looking great to the general public.

Draw up a basic spec such as site map, aim of the website, target market, small brief about the company, etc.

Well to be fair you cant really design a site without knowing what pages they want and what the site is about!

Pick 2/3 companies you like and send them the spec. At that point you could probably arrange to meet with them to discuss your needs. This meeting is good for the client and the provider so you get a good feel for what each is like and more questions can be asked. Usually my first meeting gives me all I need to find out what the client needs, gives me an opportunity to explain how I can fit with their plan and benefit their business, etc.

Phone calls work well also. Bare in mind, if he is Googling it - the chances of getting a local service or someone to come down from some other city to meet the client is slim.

Pitfalls to look out for - choosing the wrong designer. I advise staying away from designers too cheap. From experience, you don't always get a good quality product at the end of it. Compare the portfolios - this will really help you in making the right choice.

To cheap as in? Bare in mind, it depends on the spec. Larger sites cost more money. Smaller sites cost less money. Starting around 800 euro for a basic website is not awful cheap - but a lot of Irish companies think they should charge an unbelievable amount of money. Iv seen Irish people asking for 800 for just a "Contact Us" script. Seriously like, come of it. Excluding domain and hosting of course.

For a brochure website with design, xhtml/css/js programming, website set up, content formatting, search engine optimisation, hosting, etc. don't be shocked if you get prices ranging anywhere from 2k to 10k depending on the company you talk to.

10k? Must be some big website!