Feminism - Your thoughts on it.

Reku

ali.c wrote: »

In ireland its *only* 1/5 so we arent exactly doing a whole lot better

Perhaps, but an increasing amount of that is female on female violence, which feminism has a lot more to answer for than men do.


Feminism was never really about equality, otherwise it would not have been called feminism, it would have been equalism. In the early days this was ok, as women had A LOT of ground to make up in terms of getting equal rights to men, however as more was achieved the more rational minded "feminists" were appeased and went back to living their lives. As a result most of it's more well known advocates these days are the hardline firm believers of the regular female mantra (I've heard this from so many women who do not claim to be feminists and it's always quite funny when they remember that I am a man:rolleyes:. Think the not staring at/talking to their chest bit confuses them.:D) "all men are bastards", e.g. Germaine "I wish I was a lesbian" Greer, as such feminism has no more a place in the modern 1st world society (though I can think of a few countries where though they are classed as first world they could do with some major re-education of the male population) than male chauvanism.

Equality is the goal but it must be a flexible equality, allowing for differences that do exist between the sexes regardless of what any deluded feminists might argue, fact is from a genetic level up there are fundamental differences and no amount of campaigning can change that. These differences need to be embraced and allowed for while striving to ensure that both genders have the same odds of earning the same wages (even now women in the work place earn on average less than men do), have the same degree of legal protections (a drunk man having sex with a drunk woman = him raping her?!? In fact due to the legal definition of rape in Ireland a woman cannot possible rape a man!) and get the same degree of respect in all matters of their lives.

Nevyn

Weidii wrote: »

I've encountered a few feminists and to me they're about pressuring women into working instead of minding their children and making them feel ashamed for living at home while their kids are growing up. They have also tried to make other women feel inadequate for not having as high a salary as their husband.

To be honest, in this day and age feminism should not be necessary. It can be just as bad as male chauvanism.

I am a feminist and I am currently a stay at home mother of two and have been for the last 7 years.

It's about choice not about the freedom to do what men do.



Feminism came about because men had the power to lobby and make changes that effected them and everyone esle and women did not have the power to make changes. We did not have the vote, that was achieved put there was still more to do.

I would love to see child care as no longer being a feminist or women's issue,
I would love for it to be a parental issue, growing up my Dad was a stay at home Dad for over 10 years while my Mam worked and I now 20 years later this is far from the norm which I think is sad.

I would love to see domestic abuse be no longer a women's issue.

I would love to see sexual abuse and rape as no longer being a women's issue.


Women's rights are human rights but it took women to stand up and start fighting for change and in may ways we are still not there yet as a human society so that these things are human issues and not women's issues.

JC 2K3

I don't understand that image. It gives a balanced view of the difficulties faced by both sexes due to stereotypes and then just randomly asserts that boys find the path to freedom easier, which sorta negates everything else on the image. wtf?

Reku

Also, if as the image claims:
"For every boy struggling not to let advertising dictate his desires, there is a girl facing the ad industry's attacks on her self esteem."
Then why are metrosexual males becoming more common as well as males getting plastic surgery for purely aesthetic reasons (e.g. Rhinoplasty), clearly men are being left with the same bruises to their self esteem as women, it's just that men aren't supposed to talk about it (just like with everything else, heck we say anything about feeling poorly and suddenly the ladies whip out the "manflu" tirrade:rolleyes:).

Macha

farohar wrote: »

Also, if as the image claims:
"For every boy struggling not to let advertising dictate his desires, there is a girl facing the ad industry's attacks on her self esteem."
Then why are metrosexual males becoming more common as well as males getting plastic surgery for purely aesthetic reasons (e.g. Rhinoplasty), clearly men are being left with the same bruises to their self esteem as women, it's just that men aren't supposed to talk about it (just like with everything else, heck we say anything about feeling poorly and suddenly the ladies whip out the "manflu" tirrade:rolleyes:).

You can hardly claim that there is the same amount of focus on men's bodies as there is on women's bodies in the media.

Moreover, many of the male images are, in fact, reasonably healthy images (strong, muscular fit) as compared to particularly unhealthy images for women (v low body fat, not much muscle, etc).

Crucially, the male ideal is a hell of a lot more attainable than the female ideal. What no cellulite, stretchmarks, saddlebags, pear-shaped figures, body hair, wrinkles allowed? I'm supposed to have an extremely low body fat but still have large breasts? This is an impossibility for 99% of the female population.

Yes, I'm sure some men do feel under pressure due to the ideal of men's bodies as portrayed in the media but for women it is 10 times wores - and prevalent. When I lived in Paris I used to count the number of naked or sexually displayed women I saw in one day (on the TV, billboards, etc) as compared to men. Normally, the ratio was something like 10:1. Go into a newsagents and look at the magazines. On the front of the women's magazines there are women. And on front of the men's magazines? Mostly women! (minus clothes, plus breast implants)

Moreover, women's bodies seem to be fair game for discussion/comment. Hence, some men feel it is their right to stare at me when I walk down the street, making me feel v uncomfortable. Or even make comments - positive or negative. I know I'm opening can of worms here but I also consider strip clubs & prostitution to be an extension of this assumption by some males that they have the right to look at/use a woman's body. Just look at newsreaders on most news channels. Old, frumpy man and a young pretty women. Whatever else you want to be in life as a women, you better damn well make sure you look good while you're doing it.

Reku

If the media were to be believed all men should have 6 packs (the non-alcohol container kind), for many men this is not realistically achieveable as it would effectively require living in the gym for the rest of their lives so it's not that attainable for most, and the body shape would require taking bulk-up supplements which are hazardous to your health (know someone who found out the hard way as he was into the bodybuilding scene). Then you raise the issue of body hair, strange the media always has the males with no back hair (some blokes do get this), and little chest hair (used to be popular in the media to have tufts of chest hair, now it's not for whatever reason) and quite often they seem to have oddly smooth legs too when shorts are involved.
Also it's strange what you quote as this female ideal as last I checked a lot of the lads fancied Nigela and she's not thin, and who knows what else on the list she conforms to, so I strongly suspect that the ideal is driven by women with their competitive dieting as much as, if not more than, it is driven by men. But then do you really think the CK underwear model is there for the men? Doubt it VERY much....
I'll agree that it is worse for women but then look at the kind of garbage that women tend to read and watch on TV, a lot of it is about celebrities and how great they look, their great lives, etc..., so in many ways it's self inflicted.

As for the naked men vs. women, while it probably is due to advertising still being a male dominated industry perhaps a part of this is due to how few males do actually achieve the media's ideal vision of a male. As for there being women on the women's magazines, that's women's own fault (even the magazines owned and run by women follow this format so clearly you ladies just prefer comparing yourselves to other ladies than to look at men, either that or prudishness prevents you buying ones with attractive semi-naked men on the covers) so it's entirely self inflicted once more.

Women's bodies seem to be fair game for comments? And which gender is making most of those comments about how so and so is putting on a bit of weight, taking too long to get her figure back after having a baby, etc....? WOMEN! So once more self inflicted.
As to lads oogling you, I've known many a girl to complain about lads checking out her ass and then 5 minutes later what would she be at except checking out some lads ass or torso, supposedly it's acceptable for women to do it but not for men.:rolleyes: So yes, men have a right to look at you just as you are free to look at them, or are we supposed to stare into the sky and all fall over one another? As for whatever they might say part of this is unfortunately down to women being so polar as a group, some love being chatted up (even with the most god-awful lines), some will slap you if you try, some love male attention, others will hate your guts for even noticing that they are female... so I think it's safe to say that the problem is more with the insecurities of the female than the fact that some guy is looking at her.

Strip clubs? There are ladies nights in those places AFAIK with male strippers so that's a moot arguement IMO, men attend them more due to it being more acceptable and higher sex drive.
Prostitutes, some women choose that life, those who don't need protecting.
I know women like to let on that they never oggle men, never get horny, never think dirty thoughts, etc... but it's all a load of BS, they behave like this less often than men but that's due to the fact that libido comes from testosterone, the male hormone, and to a large extent IMO due to pressure from other women (branding any woman who decides to enjoy being a sexual being a slut), making womankind rather sexually repressed. Since testosterone induced behaviour (staring at attractive women and such) is apparently not allowed then why should men tolerate women gossiping? As I said before, both genders need to accept the other for what it is.

Last time I watched the RTE news the female newsreader was anything but young, early 40s at least, yes, she might be younger than the male but then how long has it been since women were really accepted in the workplace and didn't have to quit if they got pregnant? So you're unlikely to have huge numbers of working women that much older than that in most workplaces.

neuro-praxis

(From my notes on a talk I gave last year: )

1.3 billion people in this world live in unimaginable poverty. 70% of these people are women.

Women work two-thirds of the world's working hours, produce half of the world's food, and yet earn only 10% of the world's income and own less than 1% of the world's property.

Women hold only 12% of parliamentary seats worldwide. In the least developed countries it can be as low as 8.5%.

Women hold only 1% of executive positions in the world's biggest international corporations.

There are 876 million illiterate people in the world - two thirds of them are women. Two thirds of school-age children in the developing world without access to education are girls.

Approximately 80 per cent of people displaced by conflict or human rights violations are women and children. Displacement, internally or across borders, is disruptive and dangerous. It deprives women of the security of their community and exposes them to hunger, disease, violence and sexual assault.

During armed conflict, women and girls are continually threatened by rape, domestic violence, sexual exploitation, trafficking, sexual humiliation and mutilation. They are at heightened risk in all settings, whether at home, in flight or in camps for displaced people.

Forced prostitution, trafficking for sex and sex tourism are growing. Studies on the trafficking of women and children estimated 500,000 women entering the European Union in 1995.

Worldwide, a quarter of all women are raped during their lifetime. Depending on the country, 25 to 75 percent of women are regularly beaten at home. Over 120 million women have undergone female genital mutilation. Rape has devastated women, girls and families in recent conflicts in Rwanda, Cambodia, Liberia, Peru, Somalia, Uganda and the former Yugoslavia.

...We have quite a bit of work to do yet before we have achieved equality.

Macha

Higher sex drive? Pff give me a break..

Also, did you know that the weatherlady on RTE had to sue her employers as they tried to fire her. Why? They thought she was too ugly! And so RTE learned their lesson and that's why we see older women on that channel.

As for Nigella. I'm not talking about what men are attracted to. The more enlightened of us realise that only a few men like very slim women but that's not the message from the media. You get plenty of guys who think that Nigella is even obese.

Look. Half your arguments are "It's self inflicted!" as if you're somehow trying to deflect blame away from men. Women are to blame for buying into the whole thing BUT we live in a very generised society. Little girl gets a barbie, little boy gets action man. Little girl dressed in pink, little boy dressed in blue. We are so socially genderised to fit into either the male/female stereotypes. It took a lot of mentally telling myself to snap out of it before I got over my obsession with the female ideal. I don't blame those women who can't.

In your reponses you pick & choose points that you feel you can successfully counter and ignore those you feel you can't. You have not convinced me to change my point of view

One last thing. Please get it out of your head that women 'choose' to go into prostitution. Go and read up about human traficking.

WhiteWashMan

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I don't understand that image. It gives a balanced view of the difficulties faced by both sexes due to stereotypes and then just randomly asserts that boys find the path to freedom easier, which sorta negates everything else on the image. wtf?

I think it means his own personal path to freedom, not that his path is easier than the girls.
the ending si suppose to be positive for both the boy and the girl.

make sense now?

taconnol wrote: »

You can hardly claim that there is the same amount of focus on men's bodies as there is on women's bodies in the media.

Moreover, many of the male images are, in fact, reasonably healthy images (strong, muscular fit) as compared to particularly unhealthy images for women (v low body fat, not much muscle, etc). Crucially, the male ideal is a hell of a lot more attainable than the female ideal. What no cellulite, stretchmarks, saddlebags, pear-shaped figures, body hair, wrinkles allowed? I'm supposed to have an extremely low body fat but still have large breasts? This is an impossibility for 99% of the female population.

I dont agree, still unobtainable for 99% of us males. But you know, we dont have to be like that, the same way that women dont have to be a size 0.

you must be listening to all that advertising.

taconnol wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure some men do feel under pressure due to the ideal of men's bodies as portrayed in the media but for women it is 10 times wores - and prevalent. When I lived in Paris I used to count the number of naked or sexually displayed women I saw in one day (on the TV, billboards, etc) as compared to men. Normally, the ratio was something like 10:1. Go into a newsagents and look at the magazines. On the front of the women's magazines there are women. And on front of the men's magazines? Mostly women! (minus clothes, plus breast implants).

if you can find something that sells a product more efficiently than sex does, then you can bet it will be jumped upon.

its not about body shape. its about sex.

BY the way, ever notice how the women in porn, and on mens magazines, are all curve chicks?
they arent size 0 women.

doesnt that tell you something about what men prefer?

we put chicks we like on our stuff.

women put things they can never be on theirs...

taconnol wrote: »

Moreover, women's bodies seem to be fair game for discussion/comment. Hence, some men feel it is their right to stare at me when I walk down the street, making me feel v uncomfortable. Or even make comments - positive or negative. I know I'm opening can of worms here but I also consider strip clubs & prostitution to be an extension of this assumption by some males that they have the right to look at/use a woman's body. Just look at newsreaders on most news channels. Old, frumpy man and a young pretty women. Whatever else you want to be in life as a women, you better damn well make sure you look good while you're doing it.

well, lets face it, you put it on display, someone will look at it.
if youve got a nice pair of breasts, then sorry, i'll catch a glance, why?
because i appreciate a fine pair of breasts.
not because i feel youre only a thing to be oogled, or devalued.

as for strip clubs, well, you pay for that. if someone offers a service, then other people will pay for it. i really dont see what the argument is there.

taconnol wrote: »

Look. Half your arguments are "It's self inflicted!" as if you're somehow trying to deflect blame away from men. Women are to blame for buying into the whole thing BUT we live in a very generised society. Little girl gets a barbie, little boy gets action man. Little girl dressed in pink, little boy dressed in blue. We are so socially genderised to fit into either the male/female stereotypes. It took a lot of mentally telling myself to snap out of it before I got over my obsession with the female ideal. I don't blame those women who can't.

In your reponses you pick & choose points that you feel you can successfully counter and ignore those you feel you can't. You have not convinced me to change my point of view

to be honest, im not sure what your views are, or even what your points are.

are you blaming a generalised society that the media portays women as something different to what you feel they should be?

how about making it easier.

how about telling me not what you dont want, but what you do want.

personally, my idea of feminism is more aligned to Thaeds. IM a big believer in equality, but im also a big believer that men and women are not the same.
now thats not saying unequal, just different.

Iago

I've generally just watched these conversations when they've come up, because to be honest I don't know enough about the movement to have a strong enough opinion one way or the other.

In relation to the below quote though;

taconnol wrote: »

One last thing. Please get it out of your head that women 'choose' to go into prostitution. Go and read up about human traficking.

I have known women who have been both escorts and strippers purely by choice. While I wouldn't dispute for a second the fact that many prostitutes are forced into the life, some certainly do "choose" to go into prostitution. There is a lot of money to be made both on the less dangerous stripping side and the escort side. For example I know a girl who would work for 3 months in one of the strip clubs in Dublin and take the rest of the year off. She'd travel or do a course or just chill out, the freedom to do that was what appealed to her and the job was just a means to an end.

In fact the very definition imho of an escort is an attractive, intelligent, opinionated woman who can converse in a number of languages with authority on a number of subjects. Again I won't dispute that this particular type of escort is in the minority, but can anyone really argue that such a person hasn't made a personal choice to do so? When we speak about street prostitutes I think we move into the realms of girls and boys who felt they had no choice for one reason or another but to get involved in that business. I find that sad and demoralising, but then there's much about this world that has the same effect on me. The world has gone to hell, but these things are cylical and it will turn itself around eventually. Probably not in my lifetime, but you never know.

anyway enough off topic rambling from me.

Crumble Froo

Iago wrote: »

I have known women who have been both escorts and strippers purely by choice. While I wouldn't dispute for a second the fact that many prostitutes are forced into the life, some certainly do "choose" to go into prostitution.

can definitely confirm that one. as i've mentioned before, my b/f used to be a gardener for a brothel and was quite friendly with the girls, used to flat with one of em too... he's gotten into a lot of internet debates on this same issue, that some people do pick it as a career thing. yes, there's a lot of bad otu there, and people forced into it, or it's a last resort, but it is actually a lot of people who pick it as a career. (prostitution is legal in NZ, btw).

Reku

To neuro-praxis, this is why we need the feminists to stop seeking the ridiculous and actual bias in women's favour and instead start trying to address the imbalence in countries where sexism is not just socially acceptable, but actually part of the system.

taconnol wrote: »

Higher sex drive? Pff give me a break..

Look at how often statistics indicate the average male "relieves the tension" compared to the average female. How come all the anecdotes are about women, not men, saying "not tonight dear I've a headache"? Why is it that men are expected to have had more sexual partners than women?

taconnol wrote: »

Also, did you know that the weatherlady on RTE had to sue her employers as they tried to fire her. Why? They thought she was too ugly! And so RTE learned their lesson and that's why we see older women on that channel.

No I didn't, and I hope she got a nice settlement out of it on top of keeping her job. But the particular newsreader I'm thinking of has been with them for years so she wasn't just hired on to make them look less ageist/sexist.

taconnol wrote: »

As for Nigella. I'm not talking about what men are attracted to. The more enlightened of us realise that only a few men like very slim women but that's not the message from the media. You get plenty of guys who think that Nigella is even obese.

So really you're admitting that since men are not really the source of this, the faceless organisations in the media are, yet men are still to blame for it even though quite a lot of the magazines and fashion shows which seem most in favour of this image are controlled by women and gay (not going to find women attractive no matter what they look like) men?

taconnol wrote: »

Look. Half your arguments are "It's self inflicted!" as if you're somehow trying to deflect blame away from men. Women are to blame for buying into the whole thing BUT we live in a very generised society. Little girl gets a barbie, little boy gets action man. Little girl dressed in pink, little boy dressed in blue. We are so socially genderised to fit into either the male/female stereotypes. It took a lot of mentally telling myself to snap out of it before I got over my obsession with the female ideal. I don't blame those women who can't.

And in most cases do you think it is mummy or daddy who buys the doll for the girl? Certainly in my family it was my mum, my dad bought me airfix (I liked army stuff, but still, trusting me with superglue at that age! The fool! ). Women, as a group, are to blame for much of their own problems with body image, just as men are to blame for the whole "don't talk about it" thing with regards our (men's) feelings.

taconnol wrote: »

In your reponses you pick & choose points that you feel you can successfully counter and ignore those you feel you can't. You have not convinced me to change my point of view

To be quite honest to me you're coming across as another of the Germaine Greer school of feminists, in that you want to blame everything on men, regardless of whether or not it is their fault.

taconnol wrote: »

One last thing. Please get it out of your head that women 'choose' to go into prostitution. Go and read up about human traficking.

If you bothered to read my post instead of just trying to find more things to blame on men you'd clearly see I SAID SOME WOMEN! I suppose men are to blame for you missing that too?:rolleyes:
As Iago and Crumble Froo (the artist formerly known as narco. ) have pointed out there are indeed many women who do choose to become prostitutes, strippers, escourts, etc..., and if as a feminist you truely were about female equality and liberation you would embrace the fact that these women can choose to work in such jobs.


Good post WhiteWashMan, and I wish I'd your optimism on the world turning itself around Iago.:(

ali.c

farohar wrote: »

To neuro-praxis, this is why we need the feminists to stop seeking the ridiculous and actual bias in women's favour and instead start trying to address the imbalence in countries where sexism is not just socially acceptable, but actually part of the system.

I agree with you that women in developing countries have it a lot worse that women here no debate about it. the domestic abuse statistic that i quoted earlier referred to intimate partner/husband, while i am sure that some gay relationships are physically abusive I dont think it is significant enough to say male on female domestic abuse is not a problem in Ireland.

In my current role, I am expected to do stuff that my predessor wasnt purely because i am a girl. One of the managers is quite sleazy (oggling my boobs etc) and i also know of at least one girl who when faced with working in an all male environment was made to feel so uncomfortable she quit the job.

I am not in anyway saying that men dont face problems but my experience to me would indicate that whilst we have come along way there is still a bit to go.

Reku

ali.c wrote: »

I agree with you that women in developing countries have it a lot worse that women here no debate about it. the domestic abuse statistic that i quoted earlier referred to intimate partner/husband, while i am sure that some gay relationships are physically abusive I dont think it is significant enough to say male on female domestic abuse is not a problem in Ireland.

Agreed, while others have raised the point that it's not always the male who is the abusive one I feel the problem is the same in both circumstances, that the victim doesn't feel they have anyone to go to, and in some cases that they should just put up with it & perhaps they bring it on themselves, as such tackling male on female domestic abuse, may help female on male too. Both are just dispicable acts of bullying really, males beating females because they are physicall stronger (on average before someone goes on the warpath!!!!) and left too afraid to complain and females beating males because males aren't supposed to hit back and can't really complain to anyone.

ali.c wrote: »

In my current role, I am expected to do stuff that my predessor wasnt purely because i am a girl.

:eek: Definitely complain! That's not on at all! If they want to keep you doing extra they'd better pay you extra to compensate.

ali.c wrote: »

One of the managers is quite sleazy (oggling my boobs etc) and i also know of at least one girl who when faced with working in an all male environment was made to feel so uncomfortable she quit the job.

I knew one girl who was working on a building site, thankfully the foreman took matters in hand and threatened the lads should they act up because she's female, forget what exactly it was he threatened them with but she said it kept them in line at least. She was well impressed with the foreman , but at the same time threats shouldn't even have to have been made in the first place.

Macha

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

I dont agree, still unobtainable for 99% of us males. But you know, we dont have to be like that, the same way that women dont have to be a size 0.

you must be listening to all that advertising.

I stand by my point that the ideal of the female body is pushed far more than the ideal of the male body.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

if you can find something that sells a product more efficiently than sex does, then you can bet it will be jumped upon.

its not about body shape. its about sex.

BY the way, ever notice how the women in porn, and on mens magazines, are all curve chicks?
they arent size 0 women.

doesnt that tell you something about what men prefer?

we put chicks we like on our stuff.

women put things they can never be on theirs...

I know sex sells but can you please tell me where all the semi-naked men are selling things to women? Men & women are different but if there's one thing we're similar on it's being attracted to the opposite sex. THe only example I can think of is the recent Aero ad. I could count female examples at nauseum.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

well, lets face it, you put it on display, someone will look at it.
if youve got a nice pair of breasts, then sorry, i'll catch a glance, why?
because i appreciate a fine pair of breasts.
not because i feel youre only a thing to be oogled, or devalued.

as for strip clubs, well, you pay for that. if someone offers a service, then other people will pay for it. i really dont see what the argument is there.

Putting it on display? You mean the fact that I am wearing a T-shirt and I have breasts? There's not a hell lot more I can do about them being there. WHy not think about what YOU want for a second and maybe think about how uncomfortable you're making the owner of those breasts your staring at? And I'm not talking about just a glance (I mean I don't even notice that stuff). I'm talking about blatant oogling and comments.

As for the strip club/prostitute thing: I think you're really looking at the basic transaction, without examining the socio-economic background to that transaction.

WhiteWashMan wrote: »

to be honest, im not sure what your views are, or even what your points are.

are you blaming a generalised society that the media portays women as something different to what you feel they should be?

how about making it easier.

how about telling me not what you dont want, but what you do want.

personally, my idea of feminism is more aligned to Thaeds. IM a big believer in equality, but im also a big believer that men and women are not the same.
now thats not saying unequal, just different.

I think I may have come across overly negative towards men - something that I do not belive in so apologies for that. I should have mentioned this at the beginning. I don't blame men (honestly!) - for me it is a societal thing and men can also be victims of their own gender stereotypes. But in my opinion, women really get the short straw for gender stereotypes.

What do you mean by making it easier?

Forgot to mention! I have same opinion of male prostitution as female. All those rich older women who go on holiday to the Caribbean, pick up some young guy on the beach & shower him with gifts for a few nights in bed are just fooling themselves that it's anything but prostitution.

And of course there are those people who choose prositution but definitely in the minority. Too many people buy into the 'happy hooker' myth.

Blush_01

taconnol wrote: »

Putting it on display? You mean the fact that I am wearing a T-shirt and I have breasts? There's not a hell lot more I can do about them being there. WHy not think about what YOU want for a second and maybe think about how uncomfortable you're making the owner of those breasts your staring at? And I'm not talking about just a glance (I mean I don't even notice that stuff). I'm talking about blatant oogling and comments.

Ever looked at a guy's ass, arms, calves, chest, seen some guy without his shirt on in fine weather and commented on a well toned torso, or, take it 180 degrees, and commented on the lack of muscle tone and how those "moobs" should be hidden away, how said guy had no ass etc.? If that has EVER happened to you then you're a hypocrite. Women blatantly ogle men too, but usually in groups and then it becomes part of the conversation. It's "observation". We're "visual" people. Bullsh!t. If you don't want to be ogled, then turn or walk away - men can't see what's not there. Or stop giving a crap - it's human nature to assess potential mates. Take it as the compliment it is and move on. Whether you like it or not, you use your body as a commodity. Otherwise, there'd be very little human interaction at all.

ali.c

Blush_01 wrote: »

If you don't want to be ogled, then turn or walk away - men can't see what's not there.

Eh so what she should said inside?? Or were a muselim womans outfit that begins with a B but i have no idea how to spell it. Please... if i have my boobs oggled in work should i quit my job?

Macha

Blush_01 wrote: »

Ever looked at a guy's ass, arms, calves, chest, seen some guy without his shirt on in fine weather and commented on a well toned torso, or, take it 180 degrees, and commented on the lack of muscle tone and how those "moobs" should be hidden away, how said guy had no ass etc.? If that has EVER happened to you then you're a hypocrite. Women blatantly ogle men too, but usually in groups and then it becomes part of the conversation. It's "observation". We're "visual" people. Bullsh!t. If you don't want to be ogled, then turn or walk away - men can't see what's not there. Or stop giving a crap - it's human nature to assess potential mates. Take it as the compliment it is and move on. Whether you like it or not, you use your body as a commodity. Otherwise, there'd be very little human interaction at all.

I have never used my body as a commodity and don't appreciate suggestions to the contrary. Please explain to me how I have done so 'whether I like it or not'.

Do you really think that the majority of human interaction is based on eyeing each other up? If so, we haven't come much further than the apes.

My problem is when the comments or looks start to make women (or men for that matter) uncomfortable. I remember one incident when 2 guys were wolf whistling at a girl & she was literally running away from them, her cheeks blazing red. Seriously, I think we are misunderstanding each others's idea of what a glance, etc means.

Reku

taconnol wrote: »

we haven't come much further than the apes

No, we haven't, women are still addicted to socialising (gossiping) and preening, men still make a lot of noise, thump their chests and try assert dominance (obviously not in a literal sense, but not far from).

As for guys looking "at" you, it's also argueable that this may be an unfair assumption, who really knows where they are looking, there could be something far more interesting behind you afterall, or they could just be staring into space and you happen to be getting in their view. So how much evidence are you using to come to this conclusion or is your ego the bulk of your case against the men? Perhaps your case is based entirely on the psychology concept of rationalisation:
"I do it so I assume everyone else does too"?

As for never having used your body as a commodity, so you've never dressed to look good? Used make-up? Why would you use these unless you want to improve your appearance in some way, and why would you want to do this unless you wanted to use it to affect how someone else would interact with you?
Heck, even when I brush my hair in the morning, even though I don't think about it as such at the time, I am using my body as a commodity as I'm adopting a neater appearance so as to be treated in a more respectful manner by the majority of those I deal with during the day.

Sleepy

What I don't get, and possibly never will, is if feminism is supposed to be about equality why is it

a) called the feminist movement instead of the egalitarian movement

and

b) calling for specialist laws to deal with "women's issues"

Does it not strike anybody that all the lobby groups looking for gender/racial/age/sexual equality would have a far larger voice if they simply grouped together and lobbied for equality for all?

Blush_01

farohar wrote: »

No, we haven't, women are still addicted to socialising (gossiping) and preening, men still make a lot of noise, thump their chests and try assert dominance (obviously not in a literal sense, but not far from).

As for guys looking "at" you, it's also argueable that this may be an unfair assumption, who really knows where they are looking, there could be something far more interesting behind you afterall, or they could just be staring into space and you happen to be getting in their view. So how much evidence are you using to come to this conclusion or is your ego the bulk of your case against the men? Perhaps your case is based entirely on the psychology concept of rationalisation:
"I do it so I assume everyone else does too"?

As for never having used your body as a commodity, so you've never dressed to look good? Used make-up? Why would you use these unless you want to improve your appearance in some way, and why would you want to do this unless you wanted to use it to affect how someone else would interact with you?
Heck, even when I brush my hair in the morning, even though I don't think about it as such at the time, I am using my body as a commodity as I'm adopting a neater appearance so as to be treated in a more respectful manner by the majority of those I deal with during the day.

+1

Have you ever flirted with someone from a distance who you'd never talked to, in a bar for example? What, the guy has a brain scanner he's used from across the room? He thinks you look like you have an amazing personality? Or, he thinks you're attractive, and you're responding. Have you ever struck up a conversation with a guy somewhere because you thought he was physically attractive? There it is again - the use of your (or his) physical being as a commodity. Without it, there wouldn't be many of us around today, most of us are of an ethnic or social background where arranged marriages weren't part of how our parents hooked up, nor will we be neatly matched with someone for the sake of procreation. I'm not saying you deliberately go out of your way to do it (all the time) but you DO do it, don't you? Go on, admit you're human.


Ali, give me a break. If you turn your back, what are they ogling? Your shoulderblades. No hijab or burkha needed. What you describe is intimidation and disrespect, it's continuous and deliberate behaviour that possibly visibly makes you uncomfortable - perhaps that's their payoff, the reaction they're looking for. It's not simply ogling something attractive and declaring approval. If you're in a position at work where you feel like you're not being respected, then take steps to change it. Bring the issue up. Change it. To modify an old adage - disrespect me once, shame on you. Disrespect me twice, shame on me. The guys in question are obviously getting what they want from the transaction - it's up to you to change the behaviour that's been working for them. It continues to work for them, regardless of how uncomfortable you feel. Quitting and running away does nobody any good, someone else will just fill the position until finally someone stands up to them. Maybe that's what they want - to intimidate and bully you out of the way, so someone else can come in and take your place. Make a stand to show them you're every bit as good as they are. But it seems to me like the ogling is just a constituent part of an overall problem. And it's not standard behaviour.

WhiteWashMan

taconnol wrote: »

I stand by my point that the ideal of the female body is pushed far more than the ideal of the male body.

thats fine. i dont have an issue with that. I agree that it is, i was only disagreeing that you think the male 'ideal' body is more easily obtainable.
i dont. im a good example of someone who goes to the gym regularly and i cant seem to get that rock hard 6 pack that is obviously every womans dream. if only i could have one, apparently my life will be more fulfilled and i will have more confidence etc etc etc

taconnol wrote: »

I know sex sells but can you please tell me where all the semi-naked men are selling things to women? Men & women are different but if there's one thing we're similar on it's being attracted to the opposite sex. THe only example I can think of is the recent Aero ad. I could count female examples at nauseum.

i wasnt pointing out that men are advertised to women more. i dont believe they are. I was simplky pointing out that sexual advertising to men is a 'healthier' looking woman. Women who are advertised to women on the cover of vogue etc are simply unhealthy.
sex sells. even to women.

taconnol wrote: »

Putting it on display? You mean the fact that I am wearing a T-shirt and I have breasts? There's not a hell lot more I can do about them being there. WHy not think about what YOU want for a second and maybe think about how uncomfortable you're making the owner of those breasts your staring at? And I'm not talking about just a glance (I mean I don't even notice that stuff). I'm talking about blatant oogling and comments.

i dont think you should have to do anything. i simply stated that if there is something on display, i'll have a peek. I dont believe in staring at your breasts as you pass and making you uncomfortable.
i dont agree that you, or any other person should be made feel uncomfortable in how you dress and how you look.

However, lets be realistic here at the same time. you go out in amini skirt that doesnt cover your arse, and little tittie top. would you expect that no one is going to look at you? its a simple fact that how you dress is going to effect how people look at you.
ive got a couple of pairs of jeans that look good on me. they really do. they make me look like i have a large package and great ass. simple as. on the subway, i have often cought women checking me out. in fact, any one who has been on a subway more than once will get it. its simple a fact of life. people check other people out. i dont startshouting in the carriage that its unacceptable that a woman should ogle my crotch. it would be pointless.

either way, you put up with it, or you take the responsibility on yourself to dress in a manner that you feel will not get that sort of reaction.
i dont think its fair. but i think thats life.

taconnol wrote: »

As for the strip club/prostitute thing: I think you're really looking at the basic transaction, without examining the socio-economic background to that transaction.

.

perhaps thats a conversation for a different thread. im simply pointing out that is someone offers a service of some description, someone else will pay money for it.

taconnol wrote: »

I think I may have come across overly negative towards men - something that I do not belive in so apologies for that. I should have mentioned this at the beginning. I don't blame men (honestly!) - for me it is a societal thing and men can also be victims of their own gender stereotypes. But in my opinion, women really get the short straw for gender stereotypes.
.

I dont think youre a man hater or anything of the sort.


as for how about making it easier, it was mearly a comment on the fact that i am finding it hard to fathom exactly what your point was becuase you are replying to a lot of people on point by point issues, i cant seem to make out exactly what it is you want.
that was my point. you are telling us what you dont like, what you dont want. i thought it would be easier to to find out what you do want

taconnol wrote: »

Forgot to mention! I have same opinion of male prostitution as female. All ggthose rich older women who go on holiday to the Caribbean, pick up some young guy on the beach & shower him with gifts for a few nights in bed are just fooling themselves that it's anything but prostitution.

And of course there are those people who choose prositution but definitely in the minority. Too many people buy into the 'happy hooker' myth.

whoring is the oldest profession in the world, i dont expect it to end any time soon. i met a happy hooker once. she bought be a drink in a lesson street night club, and something that i actually found out, was they go out and pick up people for one night stands just like anyone else does.
it never crossed my mind that a hooker would have sex for fun.

i mean, if i was a gynacologist, i dont think id ever want to go down there in my time

Lockstep

In school, I had two girls in my class who had a massive argument.

One was an almighty b*tch, she had a boyfriend who used to be a very independant bloke but she dominated him through "tyranny of the weak" (think Livia Soprano) She claimed to be feminist and would frequently go on about why men were so f*cked up etc but if she ever heard the most veiled comment she felt was anti-women, then she hit the roof shouting the odds. For some reason she also insisted on chivalry whereby it was wrong to hit a girl, doors should be opened and books carried for girls etc. Now, all well and good despite her claims that men were the weaker species etc etc. Needless to say, she wasn't very well liked as she'd complain the girls in the class were too dependant, boys were too evil.

Another girl in the class, nice, normal girl. Once mentioned she would like to be a housewife and mother first and career woman second. Feminazi girl hit the roof, "You should have a career blah blah blah"
Other girl was livid too, saying feminism should give her the right to choose whether she was a housewife or not and that forcing women to go into careers was equally as narrow minded.

Huge argument, great fun to watch.


My own opinion-Feminism: giving women equal rights to men=good

"Feminsim"- Men are inferior/rapists/scum=bad.

taconnol wrote: »

Worldwide.

I totally agree. Men suffer a different types of abuse. And I think a lot of the abuse of men is more psychological than physical so it is harder to address. Also, there is less awareness of it and as well the attitude that you described above really doesn't help matters.

I grew up in a home witnessing female on male domestic abuse. Have you ever witnessed one of those fights where a small weaker person is fighting a bigger person who isn't trying to hurt them? The small person is trying to hurt the other person and the bigger person is trying to restrain them. Being bigger and stronger than someone is window dressing unless you know how to use it.

Not disagreeing with what your saying, just pointing out the female on male abuse can also be physical.

taconnol wrote: »

One last thing. Please get it out of your head that women 'choose' to go into prostitution. Go and read up about human traficking.

Sorry, I call BS on this. That's a very patronising post.
I lived for seven years in Belgium where prostitution is legal.
A magazine called the Bulletin did an interview one or two years ago with a prostitute who was proud to be one. She chose to go into the profession and she stated in the article that the public perception was of a poor little immigrant who was captured, beaten raped and abused. Such cases are definetely true but not every prostitute is as such. She was happy with her job and made a good living and was annoyed at peoples reaction to her career. She stressed the importance of awareness of trafficking etc.

You say "Please get it out of your head that women 'choose' to go into prostitution." That really sounds like your making a sweeping general statement. You probably don;t mean it that way but some women *shock horror* actually do choose to go into prostitution.

taconnol wrote: »

My problem is when the comments or looks start to make women (or men for that matter) uncomfortable. I remember one incident when 2 guys were wolf whistling at a girl & she was literally running away from them, her cheeks blazing red. Seriously, I think we are misunderstanding each others's idea of what a glance, etc means.

I've had situations where groups of women shouted out stuff to me that made me uncomfy.

It happens to both sexes. I know you put it happens to men but IMHO you seem to think it's worse when it happens to a woman.

I've also been ogled at the beach/on hot days in France/Belgium etc. Although they could have been thinking "Who's that pasty white Irish kid" Still giving me looks similar to checking out.
I also knew a group of girls who would sit down and check out the asses of every guy who walked past and then discuss them.

I'd imagine if a group of guys did the same with women's chests it would be seen as sleazy.

cuckoo

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I
I've had situations where groups of women shouted out stuff to me that made me uncomfy.

It happens to both sexes. I know you put it happens to men but IMHO you seem to think it's worse when it happens to a woman.

I think it's a very different experience for a woman to be oogled/had comments made at by a group of men than it is for a man. (i'm not including the quick glance here - think the creepy, uncomfortable making obvious stares).

I know that violence is more likely to be inflicted on men by other men, and i know that men are sexually assaulted too - but there is still the element of threat in a group of men oogling/making comments at a woman. There can be a sort of bravado that exists in groups of men like that as they encourage each other, double daring each other to 'go for the grope'.

Also, sadly, this is something that women do become sort of used to. Like living in Ireland makes people used to the rain.... And, no, that doesn't make it ok - but, the reactions of women in their twenties and upwards shrugging such juvenile male behaviour off can seem to make it less serious.

I was one of those girls that developed at a young age, and it took me a couple of years to get used to my new busty figure and the reactions it would get. The first few times I was cat called or discussed by a group of men in my hearing I found very scary and upsetting.

ali.c

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I grew up in a home witnessing female on male domestic abuse. Have you ever witnessed one of those fights where a small weaker person is fighting a bigger person who isn't trying to hurt them? The small person is trying to hurt the other person and the bigger person is trying to restrain them. Being bigger and stronger than someone is window dressing unless you know how to use it.

Not disagreeing with what your saying, just pointing out the female on male abuse can also be physical.

You know given the support and lets be honest the compassion (in general) for women who have suffered abuse (be it physical or sexual) from what I can see its a lot harder when a guy is on the receiving end. As far as i can see (and i hope i am wrong) i think its a lot harder for a guy to admit to these things as its seen as un-masculine. This is not my opinion but just due to the lack of awareness and support available for such men IMHO it makes it worse. I do think that male on female abuse is alot more prevelant at the same time it is important to acknowledge the fact that men can also be victims and as such deserve as much acceptance and support as a woman would receive in a similar situation.


@Blush101 well you said learn to like it or avoid i was really only applying that advice to a different situation. Also presumably if i turn and walk away they would be oggling my fantastic ass but i could be wrong on that one too :D. I have spent the last 8 years predominatly in male dominanted environments so really am more than able to stand up for myself and knock stuff on the head it just frustrating having to do it.

Sleepy wrote:

What I don't get, and possibly never will, is if feminism is supposed to be about equality why is it

a) called the feminist movement instead of the egalitarian movement

and

b) calling for specialist laws to deal with "women's issues"

Does it not strike anybody that all the lobby groups looking for gender/racial/age/sexual equality would have a far larger voice if they simply grouped together and lobbied for equality for all?

Well too be honest i think that the challenges facing people suffering from age discrimination or racial discrimination are actually far different.

As for the specialist laws, if you gave an example of one you felt was not necessarily that we could debate that but since your point in openly vague let me just compare are employment law with the french one. First of we have "equal opportunities" whereas under the french system (at least last i heard) it is assumed that everyone is equal but it is not legilisated for. Again last time i heard they have far higher institutional racisim in france than we do here. Equal rights should *not* have to be legilisated for that doesnt mean that its not necessary.

Blush_01

ali.c wrote: »

Blush_01 well you said learn to like it or avoid i was really only applying that advice to a different situation. Also presumably if i turn and walk away they would be oggling my fantastic ass but i could be wrong on that one too :D. I have spent the last 8 years predominatly in male dominanted environments so really am more than able to stand up for myself and knock stuff on the head it just frustrating having to do it.

Sorry if I kept saying you, as in you personally, I should have been more general, I was just using the situation you described earlier (about a friend in that situation? I could be wrong about the particulars, if so, sorry) as the basis for my mini-rant.

One of my previous employers was very what's-good-for-the-goose-is-good-for-the-gander. A friend of mine worked on payroll and as many of the women were more efficient and thorough than the men we were better paid than men - a rarity! In direct contrast, I worked for a guy who wouldn't let women lift and carry boxes, climb ladders etc. Talk about frustrating. The guys used to take the p!ss out of us for being incapable and they'd (quite understandably) occasionally get really irritated if we were waiting around for them to pretty much do a chunk of our work for them, which I seriously objected to. It all depends on the situation.

On a side note, people don't just get heckled because of gender-related attributes. I've had obscenities shouted at me for a variety of reasons, it all has to roll off your back if you want to survive. If you get hung up on what other people do or say you'll spend your life focussing on trivialities, regardless of gender.

Nevyn

kickoutthejams being a feminist does not stop some people from being arsehóles,
Just because you know one arsehóle who said she was a feminist ( cos she ain't if she was she would be supporting the choice of the person who wanted to stay at home and have kids ) that does not mean all feminists are arsehóles.

Reku

I think maybe feminists need to come up with a new term for themselves, leave the ignorant girls who don't want equality, just their soapbox to stand on and a constant sense of the world owes them so they have a right to be angry with everyone who doesn't agree with them, to continue calling themselves feminists

JC 2K3

+1

Lockstep

Thaedydal wrote: »

kickoutthejams being a feminist does not stop some people from being arsehóles,
Just because you know one arsehóle who said she was a feminist ( cos she ain't if she was she would be supporting the choice of the person who wanted to stay at home and have kids ) that does not mean all feminists are arsehóles.

Please tell me where I said/implied all feminists are arsehóles or any other such pejorative term.

I was using it as an example of someone who claimed to be a feminist while being intolerant of the choices of another woman.

I did not say all feminists are arsehóles because of this.


I was rather using it as a personal example of a Millie Tant I had met and how two different women were claiming feminism as being something different.


If you'd read down further in my post I did say

kickoutthejams wrote: »

My own opinion-Feminism: giving women equal rights to men=good

"Feminsim"- Men are inferior/rapists/scum=bad.

cuckoo wrote: »

I think it's a very different experience for a woman to be oogled/had comments made at by a group of men than it is for a man. (i'm not including the quick glance here - think the creepy, uncomfortable making obvious stares).

I know that violence is more likely to be inflicted on men by other men, and i know that men are sexually assaulted too - but there is still the element of threat in a group of men oogling/making comments at a woman. There can be a sort of bravado that exists in groups of men like that as they encourage each other, double daring each other to 'go for the grope'.

Also, sadly, this is something that women do become sort of used to. Like living in Ireland makes people used to the rain.... And, no, that doesn't make it ok - but, the reactions of women in their twenties and upwards shrugging such juvenile male behaviour off can seem to make it less serious.

I was one of those girls that developed at a young age, and it took me a couple of years to get used to my new busty figure and the reactions it would get. The first few times I was cat called or discussed by a group of men in my hearing I found very scary and upsetting.

Getting jeered at happens to nearly everyone TBH. Regardless of sex/height/race/orientation etc.

I take your point that it can have a dangerous edge for women but jeering can make anyone uncomfy. I've had the same thing at being catcalled by some men outside a gaybar (who I would assume to be gay).