DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

sinnerboy

yes . shop around

ardara1

cwboy wrote: »

Now that new builds have to have a BER would you recommend going that little extra and getting the assesment from the plans before I build to aid decision making? How much extra roughly would you be looking at over just the cert?

A DEAP calculation (On which the BER is based) must be done at design stage to prove the design complies with Part L Building Regulations - these results will give an indicative KWhr/m2/annum result - resulting in an indicative BER rating. A DEAP calc should be done by your architect or engineer before giving you the plans - the software is freely downloadable from the SEI website, and building control (if you can find one) will ask for a copy to confirm compliance. If they've spec'd the house to the 2006 elemental values, and you haven't too much glazing you'll get a C1 - if you go to 2008 min standards you'll get a B1 - THEORETICALLY - ON PAPER

If you want to put pressure on your builders, if you want recommendations on energy efficiency, if you want a more accurate label - speak to an ENERGY CONSULTANT ie a BER assessor that knows what they're doing - they'll work along with your architect and builder to deliver a better performing building - but you'll have to pay for it - but it'll pay off in the long run.

From what is be said on this forum there a lot of BER assessors out there that will do no more than give you a piece of paper - it's the cheaper option.

sydthebeat

Has anyone confirmation yet as to who exactly is requesting the BER??

I have been in contact with solicitors and thy know nothing about it, they havent received any circulars from the Law Society.

I would assume it should be requested at the same time as a cert of compliance / completion.....

Mellor

I thouht it would be requested at point of sale. might be 2009 before its in full swing when housing stock is affected

sydthebeat

This isnt a question of when its required, its a question of who requires it.. legally....

in the majority of situations currently, there is no sale..... ie for one off rural houses.
its required at the point of occupancy, but by whom.

ardara1

sydthebeat wrote: »

Has anyone confirmation yet as to who exactly is requesting the BER??

I have been in contact with solicitors and thy know nothing about it, they havent received any circulars from the Law Society.

I would assume it should be requested at the same time as a cert of compliance / completion.....

PART 3- BUILDING ENERGY RATING
7. (1) A person who commissions the construction of a building of a class referred to in
subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4) construction of which commences on or after
such date specified for that class in the said subparagraphs shall, before such building
is occupied for the first time, secure a BER certificate (in the form prescribed by the
First Schedule or Second Schedule to these Regulations, as appropriate) and advisory
report in relation to the building and shall produce a printed copy of such BER certificate
and advisory report to the building control authority in whose functional area the
building is situated, on demand being made by that authority for its production.
(2) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—
(a) a building of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4)
construction of which commences on or after such date specified for that class
in the said subparagraphs, hereinafter referred to as a ‘new building’, or
(b) on or after 1 January 2009, a building that is in existence on or before 1
January 2009,
and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall
produce a printed copy of the BER certificate and advisory report in relation to the
building to any person expressing an interest in purchasing or taking a letting of the
building and, on demand, to the building control authority in whose functional area the
building is situated.
(3) Where a new building is constructed, the following applies for the purposes of
subparagraph (2) (a):
(i) where the building is being offered for sale or letting (whether in writing or
otherwise) on the basis of the plans and specifications for its proposed
construction, a printed copy of the provisional BER certificate in the form
prescribed in the Second Schedule to these Regulations based on these
plans and specifications in relation to the proposed building, and related
advisory report, shall be produced to any of the persons referred to in
paragraph (2);
(ii) on the completion of construction of the building referred to in subparagraph
(i) a printed copy of the BER certificate in the form prescribed in the First
Schedule to these Regulations and of the related advisory report in relation to
the completed building, which take account of any changes implemented
during its construction relative to the plans, specifications or other data on
which the provisional BER was based, shall be produced to any purchaser or
tenant, before completion of such sale or letting and, on demand, to the
building control authority in whose functional area the building is situated.
(4) Subject to paragraph (5), a BER certificate is required for the following classes of
buildings with effect from the dates specified hereunder for each class –
(a) new dwellings commencing on or after 1 January 2007;
(b) new buildings, other than dwellings, commencing on or after
1 July 2008;
(c) buildings of any class in existence at 1 January 2009 offered
for sale or letting on or after 1 January 2009.

sydthebeat

by my reading of that then Ardara is that it is simply the responsibility of the client to have a BER issued before they occupy the 'new dwelling'.....

what a stupid situation. Why is it left to the (generally) inexperienced client to know the ins and outs of building law??? How are they supposed to know this, or who is supposed to let them know??

Who can police that anyway???

Are the SEI going to fine a self builder who moves into his new house without a BER?? How would they know?? Are they dependent on the shambolic 'building control' section of LAs?? How would a building control section know if theres no commencement notice sent in, which occurs in many situations.

Was this legislation written up with only housing developments in mind?? and the 30,000 or so rural dwellings build every year can do what they like.....

oh, why i should expect anything less... this countrys whole building control is a joke.....

sydthebeat

My reading on this after some further investigation is that its the remit, now, of the local authority building control section to demand BER certification and advisory reports from owners or developers of dwellings before point of occupancy or sale / letting. The whole administration of this is left to a section of local government that is often under-staffed, over worked and under resourced. This throws up some very pertinent questions. I base these question from experience of local authorities and building administration in the midlands:

1. How does the Building Control know a dwelling has commenced? Currently, although required by law, there is no penalty if a commencement notice is not sent in. Therefore there is no onus on a client submitting one.
2. How does the building control know the dwelling is complete? They currently are only achieving 1 visit to 10-15% of new dwellings.. thats a serious shorfall in what they are required to do. So
3. Do the creators of this legislation seriously think that a judge would penalise a client who pleads ignorance of the BER requirements?? I doubt it. I dont know what levels the catalytic converter in my car is supposed to be at, would i be penalised if its incorrect?
4. Why isnt the BER requested as a legal addendum to certificates of compliance. That would be the logical placement for what is inherently a legal document. Therefore it can be administered by solicitors and the Law Society.

I will email these questions to the SEI for clarification and post any response.

sinnerboy

certs of compliance ( or lack of ) do not have to form part of a conveyancing ( sale ) . law society requires purchsers solicitors to SEEK certs . vendors side can "declare" they wont be provided , and sale proceeds usually .

RIAI made this point to DOE - that certs ought be required for sales to complete .

Now ..... lets see how solicitors / law society implement the BER cert regime .

Gumbo

sydthebeat wrote: »

a friend of mine got quoted €500 for €250,000 PI insurance...

its a question of how much insurance you need to be covered by....

hi guys, im still a bit confused as to hy we would need PI insurance.
i have been a cad technician for 6 years now, do alot of nixers for planning applications etc etc and have an ordinary degree in structural engineering from DIT bolton street.

my co (consulting engineers) are send me and 2 other guys on the BER assessor course this monthe and please god we will pass.

when it comes to registering with the SEI, we are gonna register as ourselves but if we do any assesments through the co. then of course we would be covered through the company name and insurance, but if i done one for joe soap down the road, what kinda insurance would i have to safeguard myself agains??

as in, if we specify a beam, and it fails then our insurance is for the loss and destruction that comes with the failure, but what can go wrong with an assessment?

thanks in advance guys,
keith.

Mellor

You are right in that you would be covered through the company, but that only covers companies work.
But the companies PI still needs to cover assessments,
using the beam example, the PI covers against structural failure and loss of property etc.
For an assessment, the PI would need to cover against the possible devaluation of a property of a property due to mis-assessment, being too high or too low will affect someone which will eventually get back to you.

ardara1

kceire wrote: »

hi guys, im still a bit confused as to hy we would need PI insurance.
.

Prosecution
24. (1) Proceedings for an offence under of these Regulations may be brought and
prosecuted by the building control authority or the issuing authority as
appropriate.
(2) Where an offence under these Regulations is committed by a body corporate,
or by an unincorporated body of persons, or by a person purporting to act on
behalf of a body corporate or on behalf of an unincorporated body of persons,
and it is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of or to
be attributable to any neglect on the part of any person who when the offence
was committed, was, or purported to act as, a director, manager, secretary or
other officer or member of such body, such other person as well as the body, or
the person purporting to act on behalf of the body, commits an offence and is
liable to be proceeded against and punished as if he or she were guilty of the first
mentioned offence.

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

certs of compliance ( or lack of ) do not have to form part of a conveyancing ( sale ) . law society requires purchsers solicitors to SEEK certs . vendors side can "declare" they wont be provided , and sale proceeds usually .

RIAI made this point to DOE - that certs ought be required for sales to complete .

Now ..... lets see how solicitors / law society implement the BER cert regime .

The problem here SB is that the administering of the BER has nothing to do with solicitors / law society... according to the legislation anyway.

The first part of your post is a debate for another day

Gumbo

Mellor wrote: »

You are right in that you would be covered through the company, but that only covers companies work.
But the companies PI still needs to cover assessments,
using the beam example, the PI covers against structural failure and loss of property etc.
For an assessment, the PI would need to cover against the possible devaluation of a property of a property due to mis-assessment, being too high or too low will affect someone which will eventually get back to you.

i get it now mellor, thanks

sydthebeat

After a conversation with my local Building control officer here, it seems they are not viewing it any different to every other aspect of building control. A client must produce it if demanded, but theres only a 1 in 6 chance of it being demanded of them.... ?????? .... similarly when the revised regs are commissioned they will required DEAP calculations to show compliance.

The onus is specifically left onto the client or the 'person who commissions the building'.....

this will really only hit in in earnest next year when auctioneers will be the main drivers of it as agents for clients at the point of sale or rent. For owner occupiers, it will be the architect who has to practically inform their clients that a BER is needed before a dwelling is occupied. not legally, but practically...

250882

Sydthebeat, I am an Architectural technician as well and am waiting on my FETAC cert for ber assessor. When I questioned the standards and pricing issues I was told that eventually the industry will self regulate.
I am 100% with your approach. charge between 500-600 euro per dwelling aimed at one off houses.
Do the assessment accurately and correctly, and spend time on a report making recommendations that not just improve that rating but the general energy efficiency of the house, most of the stuff I learned on the course went over everybodys head or just plain didnt make sense. Myself and another technician did the course along with a civil engineer, a plumber, electrician, a guard, several auctioneers and a dairy farmer. The lecturers obviously knew nothing about heating systems or building structure as everytime a question was asked on anything technical they just fluffed over it with the result that people were trying to put in 500mm insulation in the floors and walls or use gas boilers as secondry heating to electricity in apartments etc.
Personally I think that in order to do the assessments correctly and be a good assessor you will need some good construction experience, a bit of knowledge on electrics and plumbing and a lot of research into sustainable technologies and the average man-on-the-street that may have done the course doesnt have this.
The NEA(I read an article on them once where they used thermal imaging on an existing house) make recommendations in 3 catagories, Free, cheap and intensive.
Things like closing curtains at night, turning off lights etc come in under free. Increasing insulation, improving windows, installing a more efficient boiler etc. come in under cheap and intensive covered ground source heat pumps, solar panels and other inovative energy efficient measures. It doesnt sound like too much extra work but it would be a great help to a client.

sydthebeat

250882,
Im not too worried about the current prominence of 'non-construction' BER assessors.
Once the revised Part L regs kick in and compliance with Part L HAS to be show using DEAP calculations, i will be able to market myself as both a certifier and a BER assessor, and can charge accordingly. Picture this, a client is building a dwelling, he engages my company to certify compliance with building regs and PP. As part of this certification i have to show, by calculation, that the dwelling complies with Part L using DEAP.... at this point (probably pre commencement.. using supplied spec) i can give him a provisional BER cert and write up a good advisory report, using construction technology. On completion, this client is not going to go off to a separate BER assessor for the final BER, i will be able to produce on easily as i would have 90% of the work done already.

So i will be assimilating my BER fee into the overall certification process and charge accordingly.

therefore i can see the construction educated BER assessors as surviving the initial free for all...

I also hope to market myself towards certifiers who do not know how to nor want to certify Part L... so i see this as another inroad into it.

holdfast

QUOTE]The NEA(I read an article on them once where they used thermal imaging on an existing house) make recommendations in 3 catagories, Free, cheap and intensive.[[/QUOTE]

I think if you look into the NEA you will find they are more flash than bang and this standard of report is common for years

sinnerboy

According to SEI input into Homebond Right on the Site seminar last night

Estimated requirement for no of BER assessors in Ireland -- 2000
no already qualified 800
no registered 300

Methodology for assessing older houses ( i.e . no architect / builder to certify construction ) is "being developed" . Should be complete in 2 / 3 months .

comment -
Then course providers have devise syllabus and assessors have to re train - bumpy road ahead , come New Year ? I think so

ardara1

sinnerboy wrote: »

According to SEI input into Homebond Right on the Site seminar last night

Estimated requirement for no of BER assessors in Ireland -- 2000
no already qualified 800
no registered 300

Methodology for assessing older houses ( i.e . no architect / builder to certify construction ) is "being developed" . Should be complete in 2 / 3 months .

comment -
Then course providers have devise syllabus and assessors have to re train - bumpy road ahead , come New Year ? I think so

Did u learn anything last nite Sinner?

Mellor

sinnerboy wrote: »

Estimated requirement for no of BER assessors in Ireland -- 2000
no already qualified 800
no registered 300
no competent ???

I wonder

sinnerboy

ardara1 wrote: »

Did u learn anything last nite Sinner?

Presentation on air tightness was good - lots of photos stressing attention to details .

I hope our construction colleagues can step up to the mark . Big site culture changes are required .

For architects / engineers /surveyors / self builders - get to know a good air tester - now .

250882

Just at a seminar last night by LAyDEX about air tightness testing and using the correct membranes and tapes in the correct locations, it was good but it just highlighted something for me.

Part L 2007 recomends an air change rate per hour of 4. Where then does the current part F stand with regard to ventilation which part takes preference. It kind of leaves it open to heat recovery units only doesnt it.

I remember proposing probably one of the first heat recovery ventilation systems in Roscommon years ago, it was a sealed timber frame house imported from sweden and the local authority & DOE went ballistic when they couldnt find vents in the external walls. They reckoned that if the electricity was off for a couple of days then the occupants of the house would suffocate.

Mellor

250882 wrote: »

Part L 2007 recomends an air change rate per hour of 4. Where then does the current part F stand with regard to ventilation which part takes preference. It kind of leaves it open to heat recovery units only doesnt it.

I would imagine that Part L takes preference, as it is the newer. Its guidence remember. We were told that part F was to change soon.

As for where part F stands. It only lists ope sizes for background ventilation. With the exception of mechanical ventilation, WCs are asked to have 3 airchanges per hour.
For other rooms it is given as litres/sec. Kitchens being 60 litres/sec. For reference, a 30m2 kitchen with a 2.4m ceiling working at 60litres per second results in 3 airchanges per hour. A 22.5 m2 kitchen operates at 4 airchanges.

topcatcbr

Got my fetac cert yesterday. Should i bother to register now or wait till next year.

bakerbhoy

Can someone clear a small bit of confusion for me.I am building by direct labour, overseen by arch/engineer.
Do i have to have a ber cert done before occupancy of my home or only if for some reason i was to sell in the future.

topcatcbr

bakerbhoy wrote: »

Can someone clear a small bit of confusion for me.I am building by direct labour, overseen by arch/engineer.
Do i have to have a ber cert done before occupancy of my home or only if for some reason i was to sell in the future.

Legally before first occupancy is whats required. However you should get it done as soon as possible prefferably before the build begins as you can make changes to specification easier at this stage resulting in a better energy rating.

ardara1

topcatcbr wrote: »

Legally before first occupancy is whats required. However you should get it done as soon as possible prefferably before the build begins as you can make changes to specification easier at this stage resulting in a better energy rating.

Depends when you got planning permission.

topcatcbr

ardara1 wrote: »

Depends when you got planning permission.

If you got permission before 1st jan 07 you will not require one. unless you sel/rent/lease/ the property after 1st jan 09. I think you should still get it done as early as possible it will save you money later.

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

If you got permission before 1st jan 07 you will not require one. unless you sel/rent/lease/ the property after 1st jan 09. I think you should still get it done as early as possible it will save you money later.

NO. NO. NO...... please be careful what information is supplied.

Bakerboy, you require a BER before you occupy the dwelling if, and only if, you APPLIED for planning permission after 1st January 2007.