I'm 16 and want to get into politics, is this the right place to be laughed at?

Rock Climber

Everything really.
The crux of some of the advice here is really ,don't join any of the more popular parties because well they're all the same and won't do some of the more idealistic perfection(with a small "p" as it's clearly a minority view of perfection) oriented things you'd find in dusty corners of the library.
I'm providing a counter argument in that I feel the best way to activate some of your opinions is to push for them within one of the main parties and to have a realistic outlook on what is and isn't achievable in terms of your views.

DadaKopf

I just don't know how to respond to that rant except to say it's everything I've described in my previous two posts.

No. What you don't get is that I explained I'm not a utopian, and that, in my view, I don't accept things as they are. I have ideas about how I'd like things to be. And what eejit wouldn't want things to be better? There's always something to be fixed. And I'll argue passionately for them. Note: I'M NOT A UTOPIAN. GET THAT? As a citizen living in a democracy, I debate these issues, but accept the democratic process such that it is. It's Brian Cowen, the second most powerful politician in Ireland, who has contempt for democracy. He thinks that people who disagree with him are not citizens. I don't believe that the creation of a marketised, two/three tier health system is the right thing to do. But how this makes me a traitor and a fascist in your view, while Cowen is perfectly justified to piss all over the principle of democracy is beyond me. You're mad.

You only have to look around to you to realise things need to be better. Are you blind? People, that's other than myself, you know, NOT ME, are worried about the government's handling of the economy, bad planning, inadequate public transport, long commute times, expensive childcare, the health system, the education system, job creation, increasing inequality ... the list goes on. Now, if you're one of those people who think everything's just hunky dory, fine, you're entitled to your opinion (I don't know who you are or your personal circumstances). But characterising people who think the country shouldn't be so rubbish as maniacs ... grow up, dude.

DadaKopf

Rock Climber wrote: »

Everything really.
The crux of some of the advice here is really ,don't join any of the more popular parties because well they're all the same and won't do some of the more idealistic perfection(with a small "p" as it's clearly a minority view of perfection) oriented things you'd find in dusty corners of the library.
I'm providing a counter argument in that I feel the best way to activate some of your opinions is to push for them within one of the main parties and to have a realistic outlook on what is and isn't achievable in terms of your views.

Dude, most people's advice was for the OP not to rush things, and that there are other ways to be political. That, basically, it's the OP's choice.

Rock Climber

DadaKopf wrote: »

No. What you don't get is that I explained I'm not a utopian, and that, in my view, I don't accept things as they are. I have ideas about how I'd like things to be. And what eejit wouldn't want things to be better? There's always something to be fixed. And I'll argue passionately for them. Note: I'M NOT A UTOPIAN. GET THAT? As a citizen living in a democracy, I debate these issues, but accept the democratic process such that it is. It's Brian Cowen, the second most powerful politician in Ireland, who has contempt for democracy. He thinks that people who disagree with him are not citizens. I don't believe that the creation of a marketised, two/three tier health system is the right thing to do. But how this makes me a traitor and a fascist in your view, while Cowen is perfectly justified to piss all over the principle of democracy is beyond me. You're mad.

Where did I diss your views as is the implication of the above.
I've told you that I think,that you might want to reevaluate them in terms of whats realistic given that it's so hard to get movement on what you want as so many people want it this way,that way or the other way.
Get that?

You only have to look around to you to realise things need to be better. Are you blind? People, that's other than myself, you know, NOT ME, are worried about the government's handling of the economy, bad planning, inadequate public transport, long commute times, expensive childcare, the health system, the education system, job creation, increasing inequality ... the list goes on. Now, if you're one of those people who think everything's just hunky dory, fine, you're entitled to your opinion (I don't know who you are or your personal circumstances). But characterising people who think the country shouldn't be so rubbish as maniacs ... grow up, dude.

Again,I don't know where the misconception is coming from.
But really personal abuse is not debate.

Dub6Kevin

I think we're using a very narrow definition of politics here.

I wouldn't get too caught up on involving yourself in a political party but instead get involved with issues you feel strongly about.

There are thousands of campaigns which you can get involved in whether they be human rights, pro life/pro choice, animal rights, ecological, constitutional or whatever.

Also, you're more likely to be able to play a fuller role in such organisations and get some experience of campaigning and lobbying under your belt.

Through such organisations you will almost certainly cross paths with some or all of the political parties and you might find yourself drawn to one of them.

And good luck.

DadaKopf

Yup, good advice there.

Akrasia

Rock Climber wrote: »

My God.
I just don't know how to respond to that rant except to say it's everything I've described in my previous two posts.
It's another roundabout way of saying,hey they're all wrong because they don't agree with my world view.

Nope, I was saying that people don't all vote for the same reasons, and just because someone votes for a party doesn't mean they endorse all of their positions, and nor does someone who votes for someone else, or decides not to vote forfeit all rights to be a citizen or engage in political debate.

Voting is an extremely blunt instrument.

Ever consider that your world view might be wrong?What,you think I am not capable of free thought in coming to my conclusions?

I suggested that you explore a different way of looking at things. There is a debate in policy and politics between rational choice theory, and institutionalism. Rational choice theory is a off shoot of classical liberal economic and Utilitarianism. It assumes that every decision is made by a rational actor in his/her own best interests. It is deeply flawed because it doesn't properly include the very very real constraints that limit people's choices.
People's voting patterns say very little about their values.

Same question to you then,I'll word it differently as that seems to be the in vogue way of rehashing the same thoughts over and over.
Ever consider that your views might be symptomatic of another type of institution ie some kind of search for perfection that the vast majority of people are perfectly entitled to reject in favour of what suits themselves?

I am not in a search for perfection. I am in favour of pursuing optimal outcomes. In order to improve things, we need to understand the processes and constraints and find ways to overcome them, rather than always accepting their existence and working to sustain a very flawed system.

The Corinthian

DanOB wrote: »

I'm 16 and want to get into politics, is this the right place to be laughed at?

One of them at any rate.

But seriously, and giving a completely alternative approach, you might concentrate on business, big or small, and then use direct or indirect contributions in terms of donations or material assistance to candidates who are aligned to your views. This gives one the advantage of political involvement without the need for party partisanship.

And it's always worked for me.

nesf

Akrasia wrote: »

Rational choice theory is a off shoot of classical liberal economic and Utilitarianism. It assumes that every decision is made by a rational actor in his/her own best interests. It is deeply flawed because it doesn't properly include the very very real constraints that limit people's choices.

That is, if you apply it naively. It can be a useful way of looking at things, you just need to work within its limits. Similar to any conceptual tool in this area.

Akrasia

nesf wrote: »

That is, if you apply it naively. It can be a useful way of looking at things, you just need to work within its limits. Similar to any conceptual tool in this area.

The only time rational choice theory can stand up to scrutiny is when it is re-framed to include many of the aspects of institutionalism and structuralism. Rational Choice theory as an individualist theory is hopelessly flawed, and it is in this context that I was challenging Rock Climber. His claim that election preferences are somehow a reliable indicator of individual choices is patently absurd. "FF were voted in, therefore everything FF do is endorsed by the majority of the population"

DadaKopf

As someone said in a book I've been editing:

We are rational beings, but we are also relational beings.

Anyway, Akrasia, it was public choice theory (based on the rational actor model) that developed theories about the 'irrationality of voting'. I think it was Kenneth Arrow's work.

In other words, and I think we agree here, the politics that bind people to a vote runs much deeper. The locus of power is outside the mere procedure of voting.

annie19

lets face it, your not going to make a real difference on your own. Get a group together and MAKE A STUDENT COUNCIL.
Create ur own opinions and then join a political party that matches these, thats the only way you wil be true to yourself.
;);););)

nesf

Akrasia wrote: »

The only time rational choice theory can stand up to scrutiny is when it is re-framed to include many of the aspects of institutionalism and structuralism.

I think you're misapplying it if that's the case. This is off-topic for this thread though, so better to leave it be.

Rossibaby

hi dan,i am about to join RSYM,the republican socialist youth movement.they are an excellent option with great polotics if you are inclined to believe in left-wing ideas.the goals of the party is to achieve a united ireland with the working people of catholics and protestants uniting under common ground which effect their community aswell as giving the means of production to the working class so the people of ireland are no longer controlled by multinational corporations who dont care about anything other than money.we hope to educate people in the benefits of a socialist 32 county republic and help them make up their own mind,we do not belief in a parlimentary road to socialism,it is all about making the lifes of the working people of ireland as best as possible.we are no 'trendies' like those 'socialist' hippy parties who do it to safe mother earth and because its cool.its about giving the people of ireland of any class,religion and creed a voice.i could send you info if you like...yours , R

shoutman

Rossibaby wrote: »

hi dan,i am about to join RSYM,the republican socialist youth movement.they are an excellent option with great polotics if you are inclined to believe in left-wing ideas.the goals of the party is to achieve a united ireland with the working people of catholics and protestants uniting under common ground which effect their community aswell as giving the means of production to the working class so the people of ireland are no longer controlled by multinational corporations who dont care about anything other than money.we hope to educate people in the benefits of a socialist 32 county republic and help them make up their own mind,we do not belief in a parlimentary road to socialism,it is all about making the lifes of the working people of ireland as best as possible.we are no 'trendies' like those 'socialist' hippy parties who do it to safe mother earth and because its cool.its about giving the people of ireland of any class,religion and creed a voice.i could send you info if you like...yours , R

Hopefully the RSYM can sort out the education system also, the teaching of our primary language, English, in our schools is a disaster.....

Rossibaby

and btw take people's advice here and do not join one just like that.read up,form opinions of your own and then allign with the party that represents your goals and ideas.i educated myself and followed irsp polotics for over a year and only now am i about to join.never be pressured into anything as it can have bad effects on your life...dont be embarressed about what you belief as every person with political beliefs faced hardship and abuse at some point.just read the paper,watch the news,and the internet is great for political history.join forums and just read,then when you feel confident contribute and ease yourself in.in know time you'll be an expert:-) hope this helps

Rossibaby

shoutman wrote: »

Hopefully the RSYM can sort out the education system also, the teaching of our primary language, English, in our schools is a disaster.....

what do you mean?

are you aware rsym is a youth movement and not involved in such serious matters as the educational system.all we can do is put pressure on those involved to hear public opinions.the public vote for their representatives and if they are letting you down you should make it known.the rsym would no doubt be happy to hear any queries you may have or suggestions and act accordingly

Rossibaby

and if that is a dig at my posts then how clever of u.did you come up with that by yourself lol i post here like i would on any site such as bebo/myspace etc...it is not a credible political site and accordingly i fail to see the necessity to post with perfect grammer lol im sur OP wnt mind me not forwarding a referenced piece complete with bibliography for my answers.im doing english in college and got straight A's thru secondary but thanks for the comment your wit boggles the mind lol

oscarBravo

Rossibaby wrote: »

im doing english in college and got straight A's thru secondary...

I kinda doubt it.

Let's get back on topic, folks.

DadaKopf

DadaKopf wrote: »

As someone said in a book I've been editing:


Anyway, Akrasia, it was public choice theory (based on the rational actor model) that developed theories about the 'irrationality of voting'. I think it was Kenneth Arrow's work.

In other words, and I think we agree here, the politics that bind people to a vote runs much deeper. The locus of power is outside the mere procedure of voting.

I think Downs came up with the "irrationality of voting" idea, might also have been Buchanan. Arrow is responsible for the "impossibility theorem" which deals with the problem in translating preferences with a voting systems.

thistlewhipper

Dan,
Don't do it, well not yet anyhow.
You can count on the fingers of one hand the politicians who've made a difference.
If you really want to make a difference, use the courts a la Mary Robinson, David Norris, Patricia McKenna.
Other cases include making the govt apply for planning permission, (the Loran C case, i think).
Ireland is now ruled from Europe, only small local stuff is decided in Dublin, plastic bag tax, smoking ban and trucks out of the city.
Maybe study law, enjoy student life, make mistakes, otherwise how will you learn.
One other thing, once you're in politics, for some reason journalists feel that they can write what they like about you.

Tar.Aldarion

i feel thats poor advice...follow what you believe in rather than worrying what others might say about you....if you have a passion for politics go for it and keep a clear mind.the media feed you things everyday,dont be afraid of what you believe in if it goes against the staus quo

Scraggs

I'd agree with previous posters in that you should figure out your views on the world and where you stand issues before you commit to a party. I know myself I floated about a bit and attended meetings of YPDs, LY, Greens and YFG before deciding ÓFF was right for me. Get involved in election campaigns of local candidates that you admire, check out the different youth wing websites, go to meetings, social events etc. and see how you get on.

My school is a CBS school and doenst have a debating club, or even a student council.. the fact that it doenst have a student council i find very annoying.

Definitely look into setting up a student council. I was involved in setting one up in my own school a few years ago so if you need advice PM me. Its a great way to give students a voice in schools, the boards love hearing student feedback believe it or not and also its great experience to have behind you if you decide to join a party in the future.

I really would encourage you to get involved but seriously keep an open mind and don't be afraid to voice your opinion, over the last few yrs involved I've come across far too many 'die-hards' that know their party line by rote and wouldn't dare deviate from it despite their own true feelings on the matter and I don't think thats healthy whether you're 19 or 90:)