How does it take 13 monkeys to hire a manager? Answer 113 days

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psi wrote: »

The players are good enough to qualify for the EC and WC regularly,

Evidently not.

Why?

psi wrote: »

we haven't been.

Look, we can go around blaming this, that and the other, but in fairness, why does no-one ever point the finger at the players?

It's a joke at this stage.

The players, simply, haven't been good enough.

eirebhoy

If the players were good enough under Stan I'd be asking serious questions about the need for football managers. Under Kerr they were clearly good enough but just kept bottling it.

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eirebhoy wrote: »

If the players were good enough under Stan I'd be asking serious questions about the need for football managers.

:eek: There is most certainly a need for managers (are you trying to force a mutiny at Boardeaux? Shame on you eirebhoy:D)

In seriousness.

That squad of players :

1. Failed miserably in Cyprus.
2. Failed miserably to beat Cyprus in Croker.
3. Struggled like an under 8s girls team in San bleedin' Marino.
4. Capitulated in Slovakia.

Now I said squad, because everyone keeps saying "if our best team is fit"..."if Duffer can recapture the form of SIX years ago"..."if Robbie can do the club stuff"..."if the manager picks the right players"..."if..."..."if"...

Too many if's for my liking tbh.

What team, EVER, has their "Best XI" available? What manager will know immediately what his "Best XI" actually is?

If we accept that certain, key, players will be missing for games. Different players at different times granted, then it'll be, once again, square pegs in round holes, and that will be another disaster.

Our squad isn't good enough.

Pick your ideal starting eleven, and tell me the last time they played together.

estebancambias

Des, would you call Poland above average?
Would you call Ukraine above average?

eirebhoy

If Duff can play like he did under Stan against Sweden, Czech, Wales and Slovakia I'll be happy. I don't think Keane has any problems that a good manager can't fix.

GuanYin

DesF wrote: »

The players, simply, haven't been good enough.

Hold on.

the players can only go out and do the job they're told to do on the pitch.

Occasionally, we'll get someone like Keane, against Iceland, who will say screw that and take matters into his own hands, but by and large players will do the job they're told to do.

In order for the players to perform, the manager has to get a couple of things right.

Firstly, the best 11 players, have to be on the pitch, playing in positions they are comfortable in.

Secondly, the tactics have to be right. Tactic only bring you so far, but when you are lobbing high balls in to short forwards, you're not gonna get very far.

Thirdly, if things go wrong, the substitutions need to be dealth with wisely.

Fourthly, the players have to believe in you.


Since WC02 we haven't had those four things in place.

McCarthy lost the dressing room and it went for him after that. Kerr started bright enough, but again lost the players and more importantly, made some baffling choices in team selection.

Staunton didn't get any of the four right.

If all those things were in place and we were still losing, I'd say, yeah, the players. But if you have a crap manager in charge, it doesn't matter how much quality you have on the pitch. Look at England as an example.

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psi wrote: »

the players can only go out and do the job they're told to do on the pitch.

What manager, in the world, tells his players to go out and be a shambles a lá Ireland vs Cyprus (twice) and San Marino?

psi wrote: »

In order for the players to perform, the manager has to get a couple of things right. Firstly, the best 11 players, have to be on the pitch, playing in positions they are comfortable in.

Yeah, that's why I'm talking about SQUAD.

I asked a question a few posts back that, so far, has been ignored.

What, in anyone's opinion, is Ireland's "Best XI", and what was the last time they were all available for selection, and played together?

psi wrote: »

Secondly, the tactics have to be right. Tactic only bring you so far, but when you are lobbing high balls in to short forwards, you're not gonna get very far

I very much doubt even Staunton told Ireland to play long Ball against the so-called minnows.

Anyway, if the players we have are of the supposed quality, tactics is pretty self explanatory if you are up against "ten men behind the ball and a big man up front" like San Marino do, against every-bloody-one, it was hardly a surprise, was it?

Are we forgetting that the players resorted to long ball both under Kerr and McCarthy?

psi wrote: »

Thirdly, if things go wrong, the substitutions need to be dealth with wisely.

I agree with you on this.

BUT, if the players on the bench are nothing more than League 1 dross, then what is the manager supposed to do?

psi wrote: »

Fourthly, the players have to believe in you.

Er, what evidence have you that the players didn't "believe" in Stan.

What about the celebration after we scored against the Czechs in Landsdowne. Did the players not embrace the manager? Did Robbie Keane, the captain, the players representative, not go on the most watched TV program in this country, The Late Late Show, to defend his manager? After every single game was the manager not pilloried from every angle in the national press and did the players not come out to "get his back"?

Was I dreaming all of this? In all the time of Stan's tenure as boss, I never heard one single dissenting voice from the players. Not one shred of evidence that theplayers didn't respect, and ultimately "believe" in their gaffer.

psi wrote: »

McCarthy lost the dressing room and it went for him after that. Kerr started bright enough, but again lost the players and more importantly, made some baffling choices in team selection.

Yep. He also lost the press too. As did Stan.

psi wrote: »

Staunton didn't get any of the four right.

Yeah, i agree with you, I'm not trying to absolve Stan of total blame here, far from it.

I'm just trying to get the people with the Green Tinted Spectacles on them to realise that Ireland are nowhere near good enough to qualify for a major tournament. We haven't been for SIX years. That is not down to one man alone. It is delusional, in the extreme, to think it is. IMO.

psi wrote: »

Look at England as an example.

England aren't good enough to qualify either.

Why do I say that?

Because they didn't qualify.

It is being somewhat disingenuous to the teams that DID qualify, if you ask me, to say that "if" Ireland (or England) had a "better" manager in charge that they would have qualified ahead of the other teams in the groups.

GuanYin

I think you're failing to discern "Not a good enough players and manager to qualify" from "Don't have good enough players to qualify".

Using your logic, Porto would never have won the Champion's League, Greece would not be European Champions.

Ireland have far better players than Greece, we don't and haven't had a decent manager in a long time.

We have good enough players to qualify easily, but they need to be playing the right stuff.

I suppose you're going to tell me that the Greek team is full of great players who went out and did it?

estebancambias

Des, Ireland team:

Given

Finnan(Kelly)

Dunne(O' Brien)

McShane

O' Shea


Duff(Ireland)(McGeady)
Ireland(Andy Reid)
Reid(Steven)(Lee Carsley)
Hunt(Kevin Kilbane)(Duff)
Then add Garvan and Hoolihan to this list.

Keane(Morrison)
Doyle(Long)



Des I agree, a manager cannot always be blamed...where does the line stop? But Ireland had a terrible, terrible manager. England at least had a European Cup Finalist, Carling Cup winner, who had been second hand man to perhaps the best manager the world has ever seen.

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psi wrote: »

I think you're failing to discern "Not a good enough players and manager to qualify" from "Don't have good enough players to qualify".

I'm confused a bit here.

"Not a good enough players and manager to qualify"
The players weren't good enough to qualify, together with an, admittedly, inept manager is always destined to fail. (Look, I'm NOT defending Stan here, not even Mr. Delusional, on the delusionist day of the year could).

But, the fact remains, if the players weren't good enough, they simply weren't good enough.


"Don't have good enough players to qualify"
In theory, the Ireland players are probably good enough, as individuals. I accept that.

But what happens when you mix decent with mediocre?

Do the better players pull the dross up to their level? Clearly not.

Take Robbie Keane as an example. He obviously has a much better standard of player around him at Spurs, hence his excellent record for them. With Ireland, the players playing with him aren't up to that standard. Simple.

psi wrote: »

Using your logic, Porto would never have won the Champion's League, Greece would not be European Champions.

Nope, the players performed to their strengths, and deserved to win.
The thing is, some of Ireland's players have NO discernible strengths to play to.

psi wrote: »

Ireland have far better players than Greece,

Orly?

Is that why Greece qualified, and we didn't.

Greece in an arguably HARDER group.

They won ten of their 12 qualifiers, finished top on 31 points, SEVEN points clear of second placed Turkey. That group also had Norway in it.

I would safely say Greece are a better team than Ireland, for sure.

If ireland were that good, we would have done the same in our group. No?

psi wrote: »

we don't and haven't had a decent manager in a long time.

As I said, I'm not absolving the manager of blame, just saying that to keep harping on that our players are "good enough" when they haven't qualified for a tournament since 2002 is a bit silly.

psi wrote: »

We have good enough players to qualify easily, but they need to be playing the right stuff.

It's not just down to the manager though. It CAN'T be.

psi wrote: »

I suppose you're going to tell me that the Greek team is full of great players who went out and did it?

The Greek team is full of players who are good enough, and went and proved it.

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Just to add, I think Greece blew that "fluke" myth out of the water with their qualifying record this time round.

Played 12
Won 10
Drew 1
Lost 1

edit: Matter of fact.

Greece had the best qualifying record of ANY team in Europe in the last campaign.

Ireland better than that, my absolute arse. (heh, somoene posted that in here recently, and I liked it.)

estebancambias

Des, Greece were in an easier group than us, Turkey are really not that great of a team but they did throw that fluke myth back in peoples face.

eirebhoy

DesF wrote: »

Yeah, that's why I'm talking about SQUAD.

I asked a question a few posts back that, so far, has been ignored.

What, in anyone's opinion, is Ireland's "Best XI", and what was the last time they were all available for selection, and played together?

He had everyone available for the Germany game but Andy Reid didn't even get a callup and he went with Kilbane and O'Shea in central midfield.

wrote:

Are we forgetting that the players resorted to long ball both under Kerr and McCarthy?

I admit that my memory isn't great but when did we play long ball with Kerr charge?

BUT, if the players on the bench are nothing more than League 1 dross, then what is the manager supposed to do?

We've a lot better than league 1 dross for backup. Carsley, Steven Reid, Andy Reid, S.Ireland, Duff, McGeady, Doyle, Keane, Hunt. 3 of those players have to be backup.

As for Robbie Keane. He's been Spurs' player of the year in most seasons he's been there and they didn't always have excellent players.

GuanYin

Greece were in an easier group.

So, you've admitted my point, Ireland have the individual players who are good enough to qualify.

Now when you have a manager, that puts up strikers who play on through balls and interlinks and then omit the only player with passing and vision, it doesn't matter how good the strikers are.

You can have Henry and Van Nistleroy up front, together, but if your manager has put Kilbane and O'Shea/Carsley and Keogh/McGeady as their supply, don't expect them to score.

We're admittedly weak at the back in terms of strength and depth, oddly though, the back isn't where we seem to have the problem. Ireland's problem has been with midfield and attack, which is odd, seeing as we have alot of good players in that area. But when you have team selections that are baffling to all and then substututions like that Leeds lad coming on to try get a winner...... jesus.....how can you expect any set of players to respond.

Villain

Starting Joey O'Brien in the center of the park says all that needs to be said about Staunton he couldn't pick his nose never mind a team.

BaZmO*

DesF wrote: »

What manager, in the world, tells his players to go out and be a shambles a lá Ireland vs Cyprus (twice) and San Marino?

None but if you don't send the right players out to suit your tactics you've lost before you've even started.

DesF wrote: »

I very much doubt even Staunton told Ireland to play long Ball against the so-called minnows.

Anyway, if the players we have are of the supposed quality, tactics is pretty self explanatory if you are up against "ten men behind the ball and a big man up front" like San Marino do, against every-bloody-one, it was hardly a surprise, was it?

Are we forgetting that the players resorted to long ball both under Kerr and McCarthy?

Longball football is what happens when teams don’t have a gameplan.

DesF wrote: »

But what happens when you mix decent with mediocre?

Do the better players pull the dross up to their level? Clearly not.

Take Robbie Keane as an example. He obviously has a much better standard of player around him at Spurs, hence his excellent record for them. With Ireland, the players playing with him aren't up to that standard. Simple.

So what about when Royston was playing for us?

DesF wrote:

Was I dreaming all of this? In all the time of Stan's tenure as boss, I never heard one single dissenting voice from the players. Not one shred of evidence that theplayers didn't respect, and ultimately "believe" in their gaffer.

What about Mr. Ireland?

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eirebhoy wrote: »

He had everyone available for the Germany game but Andy Reid didn't even get a callup and he went with Kilbane and O'Shea in central midfield.

OK good, one game.

Once again, I'll state that I am NOT TRYING TO ABSOLVE STAUNTON OF ALL BLAME. OK, has everyone got that now? Good.

eirebhoy wrote: »

I admit that my memory isn't great but when did we play long ball with Kerr charge?

The Switzerland game in Landsdowne for one.

eirebhoy wrote: »

We've a lot better than league 1 dross for backup. Carsley, Steven Reid, Andy Reid, S.Ireland, Duff, McGeady, Doyle, Keane, Hunt. 3 of those players have to be backup.

If, and it's a very, very big if given recent history, they are all fit.

eirebhoy wrote: »

As for Robbie Keane. He's been Spurs' player of the year in most seasons he's been there and they didn't always have excellent players.

Better than what he had to play with at Ireland though.

psi wrote: »

Greece were in an easier group.

That's debateable tbh. Easier for Greece, but easier for Ireland?

Would Ireland have fared much better against, say, Malta, who finished bottom of that group Malta are a BETTER team than San Marino.

What about Hungary and Moldova? Surely on a par, at least, with Cyprus and Wales. A very poor Wales team, they were shíte. We could all see that.

psi wrote: »

So, you've admitted my point, Ireland have the individual players who are good enough to qualify.

Not all accross the park, no.

One world class keeper. Given.
One decent Centre Half. Dunne.
One decent full back. Finnan.
One ex-good winger. Duff
One striker who is an international-phobe. Robbie.

After that, the players are distinctly average.

psi wrote: »

Now when you have a manager, that puts up strikers who play on through balls and interlinks and then omit the only player with passing and vision, it doesn't matter how good the strikers are.

psi, are you ignoring on purpose when I say I'm not trying to deflect blame from the manager, or what?

Are you talking about Andy Reid by the way. He plays in the Championship for a reason. If he was that good, surely a Premiership team would have picked him up by now?

psi wrote: »

You can have Henry and Van Nistleroy up front, together, but if your manager has put Kilbane and O'Shea/Carsley and Keogh/McGeady as their supply, don't expect them to score.

We haven't the class of player who usually plays behind these names you mention.

psi wrote: »

We're admittedly weak at the back in terms of strength and depth, oddly though, the back isn't where we seem to have the problem. Ireland's problem has been with midfield and attack, which is odd, seeing as we have alot of good players in that area. But when you have team selections that are baffling to all and then substututions like that Leeds lad coming on to try get a winner...... jesus.....how can you expect any set of players to respond.

Once again, yes, the manager made some ludicrous decisions, I AM NOT DENYING that. How many more times?

BaZmO* wrote: »

So what about when Royston was playing for us?

Roy Keane was a world class player, and he did the very same for United on many occasions.

You see, we haven't got that type of player any more. Can you really see Robbie, Duffer or the masterful Andy Reid dragging a team through a game kicking and screaming? Didn't think so.

BaZmO* wrote: »

What about Mr. Ireland?

S. Ireland has a litany of strange behaviour, going back to his time in the underage set up.

But if you want to stick him as an example of the squad not believing in the manager, then go right ahead.

eirebhoy

The Switzerland game in Landsdowne for one.

OK good, one game.

If, and it's a very, very big if given recent history, they are all fit.

You could say the same about the likes of Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Poland, Czechs, Sweden, Romania...

Better than what he had to play with at Ireland though.

I'll give you a 36 year old Sheringham but that's about it.

Would Ireland have fared much better against, say, Malta, who finished bottom of that group Malta are a BETTER team than San Marino.

What about Hungary and Moldova? Surely on a par, at least, with Cyprus and Wales. A very poor Wales team, they were shíte. We could all see that.

As I said, we beat Cyprus under Kerr and McCarthy. I don't understand why you keep ignoring the influence Stan had on the team.

Are you talking about Andy Reid by the way. He plays in the Championship for a reason.

Yeah. Injuries. He's the best passer we've has since Brady and certainly our most intelligent player. If he can dominate a game against Germany then he's good enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HNPot7Svx4

"If Andy Reid was Argentinian, we'd all be cooing over him right now."

If he was that good, surely a Premiership team would have picked him up by now?

2 premiership clubs did pick him. He failed as a winger at Spurs but was Charlton's most influential player when he was fit last season (playing in the centre). This season he's certainly their most influential player. He's injured, again, and they're really missing him. Keeping him fit will get them promoted imo.

Melion

Breaking news on SSN that David O'Leary turned down the chance to interview for the job.

Does anybody care anymore?

whiskeyman

Niall Quinn has backed Brady for the job:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/mheyeyqlidoj/


I really don't think anyone cares as much now.
We've seen so many names tipped, only for them to go elsewhere...

I really don't give a flying f**k at this stage. The FAI and this 'picking panel' have totally overstayed their welcome. It's a total joke in so many peoples eyes.

Raskolnikov

DesF wrote: »

1. Failed miserably in Cyprus.
2. Failed miserably to beat Cyprus in Croker.
3. Struggled like an under 8s girls team in San bleedin' Marino.
4. Capitulated in Slovakia.

Yet we still managed to compete against Germany and the Czech Rep, even with that clown Staunton dictating play.

Dr Galen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/7194138.stm

some good news in my book anyway, Dave O'Leary turns down Ireland job interview

grames_bond

paddy power odds:

jack charlton as next irish manager 1000-1

at this stage its as good a bet as any!!

redzerdrog

getting very pissed off with the this still dragging on the FAI must be the most inept organisation in the world

ninebeanrows

redzerdrog wrote: »

getting very pissed off with the this still dragging on the FAI must be the most inept organisation in the world

Yep tis a blasted disgrace, if there is no manager in place for the friendly with Brazil in 2 weeks it really will have been a disaster.

Youd swear we were waiting for some amazing manager to finish his work with a club and take over.

In reality we are waiting for the interviewing process to seem fair and then hiring Terry Venables... ughhhhhh

herbieflowers

or Lawrie Sanchez

semibluff

its gona be brady!!!
2/1 now

Nunu

semibluff wrote: »

its gona be brady!!!
2/1 now

Oh Christ, here we go again.

I feel like Bill Murray at this stage...It's Groundhog Day!!

ninebeanrows

semibluff wrote: »

its gona be brady!!!
2/1 now

Im punting for Big Mick now!

Feck it, it may aswell be him!:D

Raekwon

semibluff wrote: »

its gona be brady!!!
2/1 now

Liam Brady couldn't manage a **** so if he gets the job then we are screwed (btw is it possible to be even more screwed then we are now?)

GuanYin

DesF, why are you so supportive of Staunton? You keep absolving him of blame for our qualifying debacle


Seriously though, I nominate T4TF for Ireland manager. It could happen!

shane86

grames_bond wrote: »

paddy power odds:

jack charlton as next irish manager 1000-1

at this stage its as good a bet as any!!

Nobody would have bet Roy Keane would work under Quinn, look what happened.

I dont gamble but thats nearly worth a euro

Are they giving odds on the chance we wont have a permanent manager in by the Brazil game?

eirebhoy

I just got home to see Houllier is getting heavily backed. Going up about a grand a minute. Probably over €60k on him today.

eirebhoy

All bookies have suspended betting except for Paddy Power.

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Deja bleedin' vu tbh.

shane86

DesF wrote: »

Deja bleedin' vu tbh.

Indeed. This is at least the fifth time the result has apparently been hours from being announced/reliably leaked. I wouldnt get too excited.

Id imagine Givens gets a few quid more for managing a senior international. Wonder does he have his own agenda trying to hang in for Brazil.......

As someone pointed out, since Stan left the FA sacked a manager, scouted a few candidates, picked one who, while overly hyped, may do the business to an extent, and has got on with the show. We proceeded to let nearly anyone decent who expressed interest (Hodgson, Troussier) go elsewhere because of our inaction. Id have my doubts Deschamps was ever approached, let alone showed interest.

GuanYin

This is probably how the FAI are funding the new manager.

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shane86 wrote: »

Id imagine Givens gets a few quid more for managing a senior international. Wonder does he have his own agenda trying to hang in for Brazil.......

Nah, doubt it.

eirebhoy

Houllier now has €100k staked on him on Betfair in total. Venables has a total of €236k on him but that's no suprise since he's been favourite for months. The next best is Brady with €65k. So that tells you how much money has gone on Houllier today.

_blank_

This thread is running since the 19th of October ffs. THAT long.

Here's a nice quote from Page #1

Mr Alan wrote: »

Houllier i wouldnt imagine would be interested.

Nunu

I hate posting this but for what it's worth I got a tip on Monday that Houllier was going to be offered the job. I was told it was a sure thing and the primary source was from within the FAI ..I was told by the secondary source.

I don't believe it and have put no money on it...I was already told by someone else weeks ago that Venables was the man and again the primary source was an FAI official:rolleyes:

_blank_

Nunu wrote: »

I hate posting this but for what it's worth I got a tip on Monday that Houllier was going to be offered the job. I was told it was a sure thing and the primary source was from within the FAI ..I was told by the secondary source.

I don't believe it and have put no money on it...I was already told by someone else weeks ago that Venables was the man and again the primary source was an FAI official:rolleyes:

Pheer the wrath of psi....:D

guinnessdrinker

psi wrote: »

This is probably how the FAI are funding the new manager.

Would not be surprised. How long more is this going to be dragged out?

Nunu

DesF wrote: »

Pheer the wrath of psi....:D

Believe me I do:D

I actually called for people to be permanently banned(tongue in cheek) if a tip they gave rang false:eek:

Just to confirm I'm not tipping Houllier just relaying a relevant story now that there is movement with him on the betting exchanges....<there that should save me>

eirebhoy

eirebhoy wrote: »

Houllier now has €100k staked on him on Betfair in total.

€120k now.

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Would not be surprised. How long more is this going to be dragged out?

22nd of January is the date the 3 lads give their preferred choice to Delaney.

Dr Galen

we'll be lucky to have the new manager in place by the Brazil game. Sure the squad will need to be named not long after the 22nd, doesn't give whoever it is much time, at least its only a friendly

scruff321

delaney is a feckin muppet! just want them to make a decision,fed up of all this speculation..terry venables would be a crap choice, don givens used to play on the same team with him tho so id say he'll get it.. even tho hes an england cast away hasnt done anything worthwhile in management in well over a decade,houllier has alot more to offer hope he gets the job

eirebhoy

The stake on Houllier jumped from €128k to €134k in a few seconds so I guess that was a single €6k bet at around 8/13.

ninebeanrows

This whole new manager business on Betfair is so suspect.

There are a few people in the know milking this, we've had so many favourites, a layers paradise.

If i had the balls i'd go in and lay Houiller but knowing my lucky he'd get it, 8/13 if flipping crazy IMO.

ninebeanrows

Houiller into 1/2 now on BF :eek: