Damn Hotpress nearly went on fire

Snake Plisken

Was working away on the PC about 20 minutes ago and got this smell of burning plastic, at first I thought it was the caps in the PC, that kind of smell but went out into the hallway and the smell was stronger, opened up the hotpress and smoke coming from the timer switch for the immersion, Mrs must have left it on since last night, manage to switch it off and run down to the trip switch panel and turn it fully off. I put this timer switch in over 9 months ago bought it in Woodies and its worked fine up until now, was buying cheaper ones in Atlantic, but they seemed to blow every couple of months. Anyway I get the switch off and its all melted at the back, one of the live wires is also melted. Very close to a house fire as could see scorch marks outside the switch.
So I'm wondering why the trip switch didn't trip? What caused this is it a faulty element?

Any ideas?

Thanks

mike65

Mrs must have left it on since last night

Surely if that were the case you would have scoled yourself by now with boiling water? Also a very hot tank is pretty loud in my experience.

Mike.

Snake Plisken

mike65 wrote: »

Surely if that were the case you would have scoled yourself by now with boiling water? Also a very hot tank is pretty loud in my experience.

Mike.

Actually come to think of it your right, the pipe at the top of the hot tank was warm but not boiling, but saying that if the switch had internnally started to short it might have reduced the element heating up. Wondering what to do now, just wire it back up to the standard off/on Bath/Basin switch or do I need to get it looked at by an electrician?

Andrea B.

Firstly, the switch contacts could be under-rated for the 13A full load of the bath element. That means that the contacts would've overheated and further so if in an area where they wouldn't have been able to dissipate heat such as behind clothes.

Secondly the fact that something has functioned doesn't mean it was wired "correctly". It is extremely important that connections, especially on higher load items such as immersions, do not reduce the circuit resistance.

Thirdly, coupled with one or both of the above, the thermostat at element could be failing in a closed position, so prolonging the worst case presumed design load time of the contacts.

Snake Plisken

Andrea B. wrote: »

Firstly, the switch contacts could be under-rated for the 13A full load of the bath element. That means that the contacts would've overheated and further so if in an area where they wouldn't have been able to dissipate heat such as behind clothes.

Secondly the fact that something has functioned doesn't mean it was wired "correctly". It is extremely important that connections, especially on higher load items such as immersions, do not reduce the circuit resistance.

Thirdly, coupled with one or both of the above, the thermostat at element could be failing in a closed position, so prolonging the worst case presumed design load time of the contacts.

Ok thanks for that I bought this switch for around 30 euros in B&Q and it was specifically rated for a Hot tank. Secondly I wired it myself and it was wired correctly with all wires very securly screwed down within the switch. when you say failing in a closed position do you mean that the element will heat the water for a certain amount of time and then cut out itself, if so it has been doing that fine.

Copper

Sounds like it was most probaby a loose connection (or you may have overtightened the terminal and damaged the copper core). Either that or the contacts aren't rated high enough.

Snake Plisken

I wonder why the circuit breaker didn't trip? I turned it on for a second and it was sparking pretty bad, would have thought it would have tripped. Is it ok if I use a 30Amp terminal block to join up to the normal Mains switch? I'm going to forget about the timer, unless someone can recommend a decent one and where to buy it.

Thanks

Snake Plisken

Right just found out what the issue is the timer I had installed is a Greenbrook T71A-C, I google it to confirm the 13Amp Rating and I find this

Update - Faulty Greenbrook Electrical Timers

Details

PRODUCT RECALL - GREENBROOK ELECTRICAL WIRED IN TIMERS
Models – T21HA-C, T22HA-C, T23HA-C, T65A-C, T69A-C, T70A-C, T71A-C. Message from Greenbrook Electrical PLC.

Last year we became aware of a potential production fault with the above timers that could cause excessive heat in the terminal block and could in some cases lead to scorching and in extreme cases melting of the block and fire damage to the surrounding area.
At this time we advised that all installed timers must be checked and if necessary the terminal screws tightened. At the same time we replaced all the products held by our stockists.
Subsequently the fault has manifested itself in a small number of timers where the terminals are correctly tightened. Further forensic investigation carried out on these products has shown that the actual cause of the fault is a manufacturing defect within some terminal blocks, which did not show up in production testing.
It is important therefore that all installed timers are replaced. In the meantime they should be turned off. Do not disconnect or replace the timer unless you believe you are competent to do so.
Please contact GreenBrook Electrical on 0800 389 9446 or email recall@greenbrook.co.uk to notify us of an affected installation, to obtain a replacement if required, or to ask any questions.
Please note that any timer models without the letter A in the part number e.g. T21H-C are not affected. The products affected were first supplied in April 2006. All products are being removed from the supply chain.
We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause but as a responsible manufacturer we must continue to pursue this matter while there continues to be a risk of a potentially faulty timer in use.

So could have been burned to death due to faulty goods

gamer

the whole point of fitting a timer is that its set 4 say 2 hours ,some1 presses the button on the switch ,immersion goes on ,then timer KNOCKS OFF IMMERSION at 120mins, so it should not be possible to leave immersion on.MY advice is for immersion s buy a timer from an electrical wholesaler and follow the wiring diagram precisely, cost 50euro approx. AN immersion uses a large amount of watts,at high amp 25amp plus, so the cheap timers in atlantic ,band q are not suitable for connection to immersions ,in my opinion .IF immersions are left on when water reachs a certain temp,they stop heating it, when the temp drops, temp sensor starts heating process again ,i think.

Snake Plisken

So what should I do now? Ring the manufacturers of the switch? Complain? This was a serious safety issue, God knows how many of these switches are in circulation in Ireland, If it had happened 2 or 3 hours later, my family could have been burned to death thanks to this timer. Any suggestions of what I should do?

10-10-20

You should ask Woodies if they took steps to notify their customer base through notifictions in-store. With other devices such as computers or such, product defects like this can be notified directly to the purchaser because the address detail is retained with each sale, but Woodies should have a list of units of sale per store and should take steps to ensure that this type of information is passed on.

JBCFord

My first port of call would be where it was bought in this case woodies
Have your receipt handy
If you feel like perusing it further this is where you would start
Don’t let them have the item in question but keep it for further reference
They should have store policy in place to deal with this accurance
And always talk to the top man

Worrying indeed I would always rather hear of a near miss with disaster and learn from it ! your a lucky man mike65

Regards jbcford

Snake Plisken

I'll drop into B&Q where I bought it and ask them about it, they won't be getting the switch though, I might check to see if they still have them on display, I'll get onto the manufacturer as well, they should really cover the cost to the damage to the wiring that burnt in the hotpress. I don't think I would be putting a Greenbrook timer back in even if they send a replacement.

northdublin

just to add a point in relation to reporting it to the manufacturer, the first thing they will ask is was it fitted by a qualified electrician. if you are qualified then you have a leg to stand on, if not......no leg.my overall opinion on elctrics is that off spend the extra few quid on quallity stuff and leave the pre pack crap on the shelves in b&q. ied bring the faulty switch to yer nearest elec wholesaler and ask them to have a look and reconmend a good replacement.

mike65

JBCFord wrote: »

Worrying indeed I would always rather hear of a near miss with disaster and learn from it ! your a lucky man mike65

Snake Plisken is the lucky man

Mike.

10-10-20

northdublin wrote: »

just to add a point in relation to reporting it to the manufacturer, the first thing they will ask is was it fitted by a qualified electrician. if you are qualified then you have a leg to stand on, if not......no leg.my overall opinion on elctrics is that off spend the extra few quid on quallity stuff and leave the pre pack crap on the shelves in b&q. ied bring the faulty switch to yer nearest elec wholesaler and ask them to have a look and reconmend a good replacement.

I don't believe that this is the case. Fact being that the manufacturer has acknowledged a product fault, so is liable whether the device was fitted professionally or not. Having being sold through a DIY outlet, I can also bet that there isn't a mention of warranty on the device only being applicable if fitted by a certified installer...!

NUTLEY BOY

Nearly had a similar problem a few years ago. Picked up the fault because the timer unit was extremely hot to the touch.

On dismantling I found that the fault was a loose connection. Therefore, under full load there was arcing and heating.

As copper says it is also possible to over tighten and that can produce the same result.

Otherwise, a defective component.

BTW what about the cable from the supply side to the switch ? If there has been heat damage to that will the insulation not be compromised even where you cannot see damage ? Replacement might be a good idea for safety sake.

northdublin

10-10-20 wrote: »

I don't believe that this is the case. Fact being that the manufacturer has acknowledged a product fault, so is liable whether the device was fitted professionally or not. Having being sold through a DIY outlet, I can also bet that there isn't a mention of warranty on the device only being applicable if fitted by a certified installer...!

i reckon yer right, i didnt read the post with the product recal propperly :rolleyes:

quote,It is important therefore that all installed timers are replaced. In the meantime they should be turned off. Do not disconnect or replace the timer unless you believe you are competent to do so.

how would the customer have known if the timers were faulty and have to be replaced? posibly when your sitting in a pile of ashes where your house was or worse.!

Snake Plisken

The damage to the cable on the supply side was about an inch and a half scorched off the live, so have cut that piece off, whats more worrying is the trip switch did not trip which I thought it should have! Anyway I've had enough of these dangerous switches I'm just going to not bother with a timer and just use the good old switch it on 20 mins before you need it.

Stoner

also important to note that the timer should not have really been installed in the hotpress, it should be outside it along with the immersion switch, the heat build up in hot presses really pushes even good quality immersion switches sometimes.

10-10-20

The RCB doesn't have to trip in situations such as this, as the short load isn't higher than a couple of hundred watts. Put it to you this way, if the breaker was rated at 20A, you would have to dissapate 4600W (20A x 230v) before the breaker dropped. That's enough heat to make the door of the hotpress warm to touch and possibly cause the walls of the hotpress to crack.

I saw this happen where we installed 128 servers into a server room, each consuming 180W (25,000W total!!!). The primary and backup aircon failed, the metal door into the room expanded into the frame, sealing it shut. The ABS plastic on the electrial supply board melted and the walls cracked. I estimated 90 to 110 degees celcius of heat by the time the fire service arrived and had to enter in thermo-reflective gear... As it occured in Germany, the TUV had to investigate...

moose112

cant understand people buying electrical gear from the likes of B&Q and these DIY centres they are generally over priced cheap crap.

Seen cheap double sockets in woodies recently cost more than i pay for MK ones

Go to your local electrical wholesalers and talk to the guys there I generally use the APT immersion timeclock costing me €25:D and cant say I have ever had a problem with them.

Snake Plisken

moose112 wrote: »

cant understand people buying electrical gear from the likes of B&Q and these DIY centres they are generally over priced cheap crap.

Seen cheap double sockets in woodies recently cost more than i pay for MK ones

Go to your local electrical wholesalers and talk to the guys there I generally use the APT immersion timeclock costing me €25:D and cant say I have ever had a problem with them.

All well and good but this Greenbrook one was €30 and nearly burned my house down didn't have that issue with the feckin €10 ones out of Atlantis.
As for having the switches and timers outside the hotpress, I have yet to see a house with that setup, my house is less then 10 years old and they stuck both in the hotpress. Anyway I'm not going to bother with timers for the moment.

NUTLEY BOY

moose112 wrote: »

cant understand people buying electrical gear from the likes of B&Q and these DIY centres they are generally over priced cheap crap.

Seen cheap double sockets in woodies recently cost more than i pay for MK ones

Go to your local electrical wholesalers and talk to the guys there I generally use the APT immersion timeclock costing me €25:D and cant say I have ever had a problem with them.

Fully agree.

For any jobs like sockets and the like I usually buy MK too as the other stuff is a false and potentially dangerous economy.