Going to catch the dealers on VRT

kluivert

I am going to print out price lists of main dealers and there cars this weekend.

Then come July I am going to re-print them, put them on excel and see what the difference is.

Is there anyone else doing this just so am not wasting time here.

beerbaron

Can you post them ? Link to them here ?

beerbaron

Dp

unkel

We will do this right here in the sticky, Kluivert. Or in its own dedicated sticky. See my naming and shaming promise here

-Chris-

kluivert wrote: »

I am going to print out price lists of main dealers and there cars this weekend.

Then come July I am going to re-print them, put them on excel and see what the difference is.

Is there anyone else doing this just so am not wasting time here.

Jeez, save yourself some time!

Download this:
http://www.simi.ie/admin/files/PriceGuideJan08.xls

Download it again in 6 months.

Easy!

kluivert wrote: »

Is there anyone else doing this just so am not wasting time here.

I'll be doing this myself and I'll post my results here, as will several others I expect. Don't let that stop you though, it's a very important exercise...

kluivert

unkel wrote: »

We will do this right here in the sticky, Kluivert. Or in its own dedicated sticky. See my naming and shaming promise here

Thats great. Thinking ahead as usual. Roll on July. Let the naming and shaming beginning.

After my talk with a Skoda dealer on Saturday I fear the worst for motorists its going to be another rip off.

-Chris-

kluivert wrote: »

...After my talk with a Skoda dealer on Saturday...

I wish people would stop "talking to x dealer" (and I'm not aiming that comment solely at you Kluivert) - I don't think any of them know anything of what's going to happen.


Here's what I think has happened so far:

The changes to VRT were released in December

Nearly immediately the Irish distributors went to their respective factories/international distributors to begin negotiation of the new pre-tax prices (the "factory" has been supplying cars to Ireland for very low prices for years, and they'll want to use this change to push the prices back up to normal European levels. The distributors will fight this as, if they're nationally uncompetitive they'll lose market share). This is probably still ongoing.

There have been many closed-door meetings of senior management in the distributor, along with meetings with the product managers, as to how the change in VRT affects the pricing, how the pricing affects the model mix, how the pricing affects their compeitiveness etc.
These meetings are also still ongoing as, whenever BMW announce something in the press, Merc/Audi/Lexus/Volvo etc. must move their prices to match (it's a BIG MONEY poker game at the moment guys, jobs and reputations are at stake!!).
Leaks will be made to test the waters, "quiet pints in darkened rooms about rhetorical situations" will be had between senior managers of different distributors.

The distributors then go back to their factory with this latest analysis and continue the pricing negotiations.
The distributors are also re-negotiating their annual targets with the factory, as any model and market share targets will be impacted by pricing variations.

The distributors are now beginning to re-negotiate the sales targets and model-mixes with the individual dealers based on their best estimate of what'll happen to the industry in the next few months, and to ensure that the targets they agreed with the factory are shared out among the dealers/territories.

The dealers then roll these revised targets out to their sales force.


I whole-heartedly believe that any pipsqueak salesperson you talk to on the dealership floor is either giving information on what they think will happen, what they've read on the internet, or what they think they need to say to get you to buy a car.
Dealer Principals will have strong hints from the distributors as to what's happening (but will keep this info to themselves), Sales Managers will get high-level versions of this information or will get no information at all, Sales Execs are relying on their own wits.

I love the discussion here of the permutations, I've used some of this information when talking to my own customers. I don't think the "I have a brother-in-law working in the parts department of our local garage and he says that electric seats are going to be standard on all Fords" comments are helpful at all.

My 2c

MercMad

AudiChris wrote: »

I wish people would stop "talking to x dealer" (and I'm not aiming that comment solely at you Kluivert) - I don't think any of them know anything of what's going to happen.


Here's what I think has happened so far:

The changes to VRT were released in December

Nearly immediately the Irish distributors went to their respective factories/international distributors to begin negotiation of the new pre-tax prices (the "factory" has been supplying cars to Ireland for very low prices for years, and they'll want to use this change to push the prices back up to normal European levels. The distributors will fight this as, if they're nationally uncompetitive they'll lose market share). This is probably still ongoing.

There have been many closed-door meetings of senior management in the distributor, along with meetings with the product managers, as to how the change in VRT affects the pricing, how the pricing affects the model mix, how the pricing affects their compeitiveness etc.
These meetings are also still ongoing as, whenever BMW announce something in the press, Merc/Audi/Lexus/Volvo etc. must move their prices to match (it's a BIG MONEY poker game at the moment guys, jobs and reputations are at stake!!).
Leaks will be made to test the waters, "quiet pints in darkened rooms about rhetorical situations" will be had between senior managers of different distributors.

The distributors then go back to their factory with this latest analysis and continue the pricing negotiations.
The distributors are also re-negotiating their annual targets with the factory, as any model and market share targets will be impacted by pricing variations.

The distributors are now beginning to re-negotiate the sales targets and model-mixes with the individual dealers based on their best estimate of what'll happen to the industry in the next few months, and to ensure that the targets they agreed with the factory are shared out among the dealers/territories.

The dealers then roll these revised targets out to their sales force.


I whole-heartedly believe that any pipsqueak salesperson you talk to on the dealership floor is either giving information on what they think will happen, what they've read on the internet, or what they think they need to say to get you to buy a car.
Dealer Principals will have strong hints from the distributors as to what's happening (but will keep this info to themselves), Sales Managers will get high-level versions of this information or will get no information at all, Sales Execs are relying on their own wits.

I love the discussion here of the permutations, I've used some of this information when talking to my own customers. I don't think the "I have a brother-in-law working in the parts department of our local garage and he says that electric seats are going to be standard on all Fords" comments are helpful at all.

My 2c

................yes I'd say you are pretty much on the money in what you say here Chris. Certainly the cost prices of all cars in Ireland has been lower than almost anywhere else due to our high taxes, so the makers will want some more wedge, whilst deaalers will want their cars to become more competitive.

Maybe the consumers WILL actually gain something here !

-Chris-

MercMad wrote: »

................yes I'd say you are pretty much on the money in what you say here Chris. Certainly the cost prices of all cars in Ireland has been lower than almost anywhere else due to our high taxes, so the makers will want some more wedge, whilst deaalers will want their cars to become more competitive.

Maybe the consumers WILL actually gain something here !

I really hope so, because if my cars are more competitive, I'll sell more. If cars get cheaper then my dad/mum/girlf/mates will get better value.

Remember a couple of things people:

1) There's a fine line between maximising profit and maximising sales, EVERY business has to tread that tightrope every day.

2) Everyone's answerable to someone - I have monthly and yearly sales targets, as does the dealership I work for, as does the importer that supplies our cars, as does the factory that builds and markets them. If market share or profitability wavers, heads roll!

3) Everyone wants this to be painless and as transparent as possible. If it's badly managed, the reputation of the Irish Motor Industry will be badly tainted. It's pretty obvious that a lot of you hold us in the same strata as Lawyers, Door-to-Door Insurance Salesmen and Clampers. I'm personally trying to change that through good service and a healthy dollop of professionalism, and I'm not alone. Sales is an honourable profession, and car sales should bee seen as honourable too!

4) There is no one in BMW Ireland/Audi Ireland/Mercedes Ireland/Heny Ford & Sons/OHM Distributors/Nissan Ireland/Toyota Ireland or ANYWHERE ELSE who has been sitting back, rubbing their hands and laughing "Mwahahahaha" since Brian Cowen landed this clusterf*ck on the doorstep of the Irish Motor Industry.
This has caused sleepless nights, lost revenues and lost income for both businesses and individuals (me included - and I have a wedding to save for that's only 7 months away!!!). This could possibly lead to people losing their jobs if the Irish consumer talks themselves into a downturn (like what's currently happening in the building industry).



Again, only my 2c. And please forgive the length of my replies, I'm off work today :D.

E92

MercMad wrote: »

................yes I'd say you are pretty much on the money in what you say here Chris. Certainly the cost prices of all cars in Ireland has been lower than almost anywhere else due to our high taxes, so the makers will want some more wedge, whilst deaalers will want their cars to become more competitive.

This would be my theory behind why BMW passing on any VRT saving to the customer actually is a very good one for them. If you can get new BMWs for only a shade more than the likes of similar engine size Mondeo, then I would say that a lot of people would for the sake of a few grand choose a car with a much more "desirable" badge, and a badge that will be worth a lot more when it comes to trade in time(I'm not a badge snob but love or loathe BMW, they are perceived to be more desirable, this is how the market works)(lets ignore the merits of the cars themselves, we all know badges count for something, just look at VW, Audi etc).

Their cars will be a lot better value for money than their rivals, so some people may switch to BMW as a result, or existing BMW customers may go for the more powerful/larger engines, because they in many cases will only cost a small bit more to run, e.g. the 325d now would cost €700 a year in tax now than a 320d(at €1290), but in July it would only cost €140 more(at €290) than a 320d.

Of course if Audi, Merc etc want to keep up with BMW then they will have to drop their prices where possible, and of course if BMWs can be had for only a fraction more than a Mondeo etc, then of course if Ford and Toyota want to keep people with Toyota, then you can be certain sure that they will have to react and drop the prices where they can.

The net point of my argument is that now that we know BMW are going to cut their prices, then others who may have thought about the trousering the difference idea will have to follow suit to stay competitive.

This is the joys of competition:D. Lets face it, if nobody changed their prices then we would have a cartell in operation, and that is prevented under EU law.

I would put money on it that any dealer who tells the customer that prices won't fall is doing that so that you will be fooled into taking the car now and getting rid of all the excess stock they have lieing about, which is costing them money in terms of space and insurance etc.

E92

AudiChris wrote: »

I really hope so, because if my cars are more competitive, I'll sell more. If cars get cheaper then my dad/mum/girlf/mates will get better value.

Remember a couple of things people:

1) There's a fine line between maximising profit and maximising sales, EVERY business has to tread that tightrope every day.

<snip>

4) There is no one in BMW Ireland/Audi Ireland/Mercedes Ireland/Heny Ford & Sons/OHM Distributors/Nissan Ireland/Toyota Ireland or ANYWHERE ELSE who has been sitting back, rubbing their hands and laughing "Mwahahahaha" since Brian Cowen landed this clusterf*ck on the doorstep of the Irish Motor Industry.
This has caused sleepless nights, lost revenues and lost income for both businesses and individuals (me included - and I have a wedding to save for that's only 7 months away!!!). This could possibly lead to people losing their jobs if the Irish consumer talks themselves into a downturn (like what's currently happening in the building industry).

I agree that Brian Cowens idea definately doesn't please the SIMI, it is far far better for them if the Government left VRT unchanged, but what of course the Government if they had any brains at all would have done was say last June/July that the VRT will change in January of this year. Everyone from the SIMI to the consumer would have been far better served if the VRT changes came in last month. By the time people had decided on their new car for the start of 08, the VRT changes had come far too late for them, and now they have cars that will be worth less in time to come(because many diesels in July will be cheaper to tax than petrols are now)too.

The SIMI are really fortunate that most people seem oblivious to the fact that many cars, especially diesels should get cheaper, and plenty of petrols will do better(though it goes without saying that most diesels do much better again).

At the end of the day, what dealers, like the SIMI and the car manfactureres themselves are here for is nothing other than maximising profit. Maximiising profits is striking the right balance between selling enough of them but keepiong the price reasonable. Pocketing VRT differences might sound like a good way to make more money, but all it takes is one make, especially a make with plenty of cars that will get nice VRT reductions to pass them on(I'm referring to BMW here of course, but Audi have plenty of low emissions models too, as do several other makes as well) and all of a sudden it makes everything else look expensive, and their sales will go up hugely and everyone else's goes down as a consequence.

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

...Everyone from the SIMI to the consumer would have been far better served if the VRT changes came in last month...

+1,000,000

E92 wrote: »

...The SIMI are really fortunate that most people seem oblivious to the fact that many cars, especially diesels should get cheaper...

I have to strongly disagree with this - my experience to date has been that 90% of people come into my garage either knowing what the changes are or knowing that there are changes but looking for guidance of what those changes are. There's a lot of information out there, in magazines, national newspapers etc. You're seriously underestimating the consumer if you don't think they're reading every word of it before they come in.

E92 wrote: »

...At the end of the day, what dealers, like the SIMI and the car manfactureres themselves are here for is nothing other than maximising profit.

That's what every business is here for, whether you're a hairdresser or an accountant or McDonalds.
If you charge €3 for a haircut, you'll have a queue out your door, but won't be able to pay your staff or rent. If you charge €300, your profit margin will be extraordinary but you'll have no customers.

E92 wrote: »

Maximiising profits is striking the right balance between selling enough of them but keepiong the price reasonable. Pocketing VRT differences might sound like a good way to make more money, but all it takes is one make, especially a make with plenty of cars that will get nice VRT reductions to pass them on(I'm referring to BMW here of course, but Audi have plenty of low emissions models too, as do several other makes as well) and all of a sudden it makes everything else look expensive, and their sales will go up hugely and everyone else's goes down as a consequence.

Price Elasticity came into the discussion in one of the other threads, and it's particularly true for cars - you're not only competing against the other brands, but also against the other dealers who sell the identical product to you. Cars are extremely price sensitive, and I can lose a deal for €200 on a €40,000 car - how many other businesses would lose business if their pricing structure was out by 0.5%?

E92

AudiChris wrote: »

I have to strongly disagree with this - my experience to date has been that 90% of people come into my garage either knowing what the changes are or knowing that there are changes but looking for guidance of what those changes are. There's a lot of information out there, in magazines, national newspapers etc. You're seriously underestimating the consumer if you don't think they're reading every word of it before they come in.

Well I'm glad people do know, but I've heard so many people say "ah sure they'll keep any savings for themselves" and the fact that the sales for cars in January went up by something like 11%(not 100% sure). I've seen so many 08 BMWs of the low emissions variety and I keep wondering how can they be so foolish to get one now, like the worst possible time. I've seen plenty of diesel Mondeos, Avensis etc as well, and these will all be a lot cheaper in 5 months time as well.

Though I would imagine anyone who is buying an Audi must be someway interested in cars, so perhaps that is why there are so many people in the know.

I wonder how many people who are coming into say Ford or Toyota dealers and wondering about emissions(though that said whether or not a Ford or Toyota is of the low road tax variety, they will still sell very well in the used market, they are the nations 2 most popular makes after all).

-Chris-

E92 wrote: »

Well I'm glad people do know, but I've heard so many people say "ah sure they'll keep any savings for themselves" and the fact that the sales for cars in January went up by something like 11%(not 100% sure).

Only went up 3.91%, although that it went up at all is pretty surprising!

E92 wrote: »

I've seen so many 08 BMWs of the low emissions variety and I keep wondering how can they be so foolish to get one now, like the worst possible time. I've seen plenty of diesel Mondeos, Avensis etc as well, and these will all be a lot cheaper in 5 months time as well.

Don't forget all those drivers that are on contract hire deals who have a specific date on which their cars have to go back, they pretty much had to change no matter what.
Also those who would rather drive the new car for 6 months rather than wait and (possibly) save €2k, €4k, €10k...
There's also the fleet market, who will have taken into account the changes but may decide to go ahead with purchases because the previous cars were due off lease, had too high a mileage to continue in use or were due for change under employee contracts. They may also be worried about the cash-flow effects of delaying the purchase of capital assets until July and then splurging hundreds of thousands in July...

E92 wrote: »

Though I would imagine anyone who is buying an Audi must be someway interested in cars, so perhaps that is why there are so many people in the know.

Yep, we have some pretty clued-in customers. It's one of the things I love about the brand!

E92 wrote: »

I wonder how many people who are coming into say Ford or Toyota dealers and wondering about emissions(though that said whether or not a Ford or Toyota is of the low road tax variety, they will still sell very well in the used market, they are the nations 2 most popular makes after all).

I'd love to hear their take on this too!! We need more salespeople/dealers in these conversations!

ninty9er

Toyota dealers (particularly ones with nice new block exemption compliant showrooms) have a nice big marketing chart of the CO2 emissions of all Toyota's on their walls somewhere. Honda also, but it's not as nice a poster to look at. Looks more like a feckin typeprint cert of incorporation or the like.

King Kelly

AudiChris wrote: »

.......We need more salespeople/dealers in these conversations!

Have to agree Chris. The level of misinformation about profit margins in the motor industry always amuses/infuriates me. I can think of no industry in Ireland that survives on such low margins. There is no appreciation of the cost of stocking, preparing, advertising and warranting vehicles in a highly regulated industry. In effect the garages are glorified tax collectors, collecting and paying over huge VRT and VAT payments each month!

The dealer is expected to give top notch trade in values for vehicles and then criticised because he can't match the price that an individual can pay by travelling to the UK, buying a car at auction and then perhaps conning the VRO out of the correct VRT! The dealers are the bottom feeders of the industry - the manufacturers lock in their profit early in play, the importer/distributor middlemen set the pricing structure, specifications etc and take their profit before passing the end product onto the dealer who is the one person in the chain who takes the risk and can only take his margin when the last traded in vehicle is washed out.!

There are little to no new entrants to the retail car sales market despite block exemption making it possible for any business to set up a franchised dealership once criteria is met simply because the return on the investment would be too low. In Ireland the motor business in being consolidated with the large motors groups expanding and smaller independent/family run franchised dealerships finding it much harder to survive/ invest in their business. Because of their huge volumn these large groups can prosper on the 1 or 2% net margins currently being made in the industry.

If a business is not making a profit they simply won't be there in future when you come back with your warranty issue, won't be able to provide the proper aftersales service or invest in staff or facilities. This is not a moan but no industry should embarassed to make a profit. At the end of the day the consumer is far better served by a dealing with a profitable business then pooply performing one.

Get more industry insiders on here!

unkel

Some quality posts there!

I'm actually amazed that car sales went up at all at the start of this year compared to last year. Sure as AudiChris said there are the lease / company cars and the huge number of celtic tigers that just must have '08 plates. I didn't expect sales to collapse like in the housing market, but I expected a significant decrease alright. Surely the only explanation for this is that most people not in above categories just don't know about the new regime? And I can understand that sales people do not go out of their way to explain to people what is going to happen to the prices, even if they knew the company policy (be it good or bad for their customers)

Many people even on this forum seem to be confused months after the plans were announced, even though the first post of the new sticky explains it all!

King Kelly wrote: »

Get more industry insiders on here!

Agreed. The more the better. Do you sell new cars too, King Kelly, like AudiChris?

E92 wrote: »

At the end of the day, what dealers, like the SIMI and the car manfactureres themselves are here for is nothing other than maximising profit

All businesses in a democratic capitalist society like ours strive to maximise profits given government constraints and so they should. This system has been proven to generate the maximum of wealth for everybody, rich or poor

AudiChris wrote: »

There is no one in BMW Ireland/Audi Ireland/Mercedes Ireland/Heny Ford & Sons/OHM Distributors/Nissan Ireland/Toyota Ireland or ANYWHERE ELSE who has been sitting back, rubbing their hands and laughing "Mwahahahaha"

I feel BMW Ireland is on an extremely lucky / succesful path. The introduction of the "Efficient Dynamics" range (absolutely nothing to do with the new Irish VRT regime obviously) resulted in the official CO2 figures for most BMWs, especially the diesels, to be very low in C02 output compared to the competition. In a brilliant marketing move, they officially announced that they would pass on the full savings. Think of the implications.

Passing on the full savings means BMW still have the same margins as before. It costs them nothing

Passing on the full savings means that even if all competitors did the same, BMWs would be relatively cheaper than some competitors because the cars are lower in CO2 output. Again this costs BMW nothing and their cars would be more competitively priced

Because of the more competitive prices in the first place, BMW will not have to allow for the same level of discounts as before

As E92 said (and he knows because he calculated the before and after prices of all cars in Ireland), the Audi diesels are pretty ok. If I were responsible for selling D-type family cars for any mainstream brand, I would be worried now though. Especially those mainstream brands that strive to become premium brands!

AudiChris wrote: »

Brian Cowen landed this clusterf*ck on the doorstep of the Irish Motor Industry

LOL - new word to me

-Chris-

unkel wrote: »

LOL - new word to me

(Can't get the link to work - damn word filters...)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=clusterf uck


Explanations 2, 3 and 6 are probably the most appropriate...

Stevie Dakota

King Kelly wrote: »

Have to agree Chris. The level of misinformation about profit margins in the motor industry always amuses/infuriates me. I can think of no industry in Ireland that survives on such low margins. There is no appreciation of the cost of stocking, preparing, advertising and warranting vehicles in a highly regulated industry.

On dealer margins I have no idea what they are, but would like to! One example is a old shape Mazda 6 that I saw in the showroom only weeks ago at €28500 is now for sale at the same dealer for €23900, if selling now at cost price (which I doubt) that implies a margin of around 20%, not bad in any industry.

E92

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

On dealer margins I have no idea what they are, but would like to! One example is a old shape Mazda 6 that I saw in the showroom only weeks ago at €28500 is now for sale at the same dealer for €23900, if selling now at cost price (which I doubt) that implies a margin of around 20%, not bad in nay industry.

It's selling at that price because no one in their right mind buys an old shape version of a car when there is a brand new one around the place, unless it is a LOT cheaper because an old shape model would be worth a lot less come trade in time.

-Chris-

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

On dealer margins I have no idea what they are, but would like to! One example is a old shape Mazda 6 that I saw in the showroom only weeks ago at €28500 is now for sale at the same dealer for €23900, if selling now at cost price (which I doubt) that implies a margin of around 20%, not bad in nay industry.

My experience has been 10-14% margin on mass market brands like Ford, Nissan etc., with margins tightening the further up the "ladder you go" (although don't take these figures as gospel, and they've been tightening up in recent years, so may be less now than they were a few years ago).

12% sounds good (and is pretty generous on my behalf), but try it out:

Ford Focus - €23,000
Profit Margin - €2,464ish
You negotiate a discount of €1,200 and think that you're doing an ok deal, but not great, after all €1,200 off €23,000 isn't much...
Dealer's now on a GROSS profit margin of €1,264 out of which they pay the salesperson 10-15% commission. Pay the light, heat, finance costs on your fancy showroom, public insurance, marketing, stocking costs on the 100 cars you're holding in stock, support staff like the accounts dept etc., etc.
Pretty apparent that, even with volume bonuses and rebates that you're not talking a lot of money. Average figure bandied about in trade mags for dealer operating profit margins of 1-3% (as per King Kelly's figures)...

Kinda scary. Suffice it to say that I'm not planning on opening my own dealership any time in the near future...


(Note: I'm not talking about any brand or garage that I've worked for in the past, present or future. These figures are for entertainment purposes only)

Stevie Dakota

E92 wrote: »

It's selling at that price because no one in their right mind buys an old shape version of a car when there is a brand new one around the place, unless it is a LOT cheaper because an old shape model would be worth a lot less come trade in time.

I understand that of course, but even ignoring the launch of the new 6 my point is the difference in the two prices is €4600. I don't know if that Mazda is now being sold now for less than cost, but if not, that €4600 indicates the margin that was on this car.

King Kelly

AudiChris wrote: »

My experience has been 10-14% margin on mass market brands like Ford, Nissan etc., with margins tightening the further up the "ladder you go" (although don't take these figures as gospel, and they've been tightening up in recent years, so may be less now than they were a few years ago).

12% sounds good (and is pretty generous on my behalf), but try it out:

Ford Focus - €23,000
Profit Margin - €2,464ish
You negotiate a discount of €1,200 and think that you're doing an ok deal, but not great, after all €1,200 off €23,000 isn't much...
Dealer's now on a GROSS profit margin of €1,264 out of which they pay the salesperson 10-15% commission. Pay the light, heat, finance costs on your fancy showroom, public insurance, marketing, stocking costs on the 100 cars you're holding in stock, support staff like the accounts dept etc., etc.
Pretty apparent that, even with volume bonuses and rebates that you're not talking a lot of money. Average figure bandied about in trade mags for dealer operating profit margins of 1-3% (as per King Kelly's figures)...

Kinda scary. Suffice it to say that I'm not planning on opening my own dealership any time in the near future...


(Note: I'm not talking about any brand or garage that I've worked for in the past, present or future. These figures are for entertainment purposes only)

From my own experience 10-14% would be very much at the upper end of the whats available out there. In my own case our dealership works off gross margins set by the franchise distributor of 10% on the cheaper models to 8% on the more expensive.

BTW While I agree entirely with your post above don't forget your profit margin on that hypothetical Ford Focus would need VRT to be stripped out before calculating and is inclusive of VAT at 21% (Say €400 in your example).

I just did a quick google to see could I find any other referances to dealership margins and came across the the following from the Sunday Business Post. Its dated April '06 but I don't have any reason to think the situation has changed in the meantime.

Boom for distributors but car dealers have it tough

-Chris-

King Kelly wrote: »

From my own experience 10-14% would be very much at the upper end of the whats available out there. In my own case our dealership works off gross margins set by the franchise distributor of 10% on the cheaper models to 8% on the more expensive.

I used to know the general margins of most of the marques, but that's tightened up recently - my knowledge is several years old (except, obviously, for Audi, who I will not be discussing here). I'd expect your margins to be more realistic for nowadays.

King Kelly wrote: »

Boom for distributors but car dealers have it tough

I wish everyone would read this article. I think I'll print it out and sellotape it to the front door our dealership - I've had quite a number of people thinking they'll get 10% discount on our cars...

Well spotted!

King Kelly

.....and the dealer down the road will throw in the the bluetooth phonekit and the sat nav at no extra cost......and don't forget to fill it with diesel!!!!!

-Chris-

King Kelly wrote: »

.....and the dealer down the road will throw in the the bluetooth phonekit and the sat nav at no extra cost......and don't forget to fill it with diesel!!!!!

Jesus, if I hear about "mats, a full tank of fuel and mudflaps" one more time, I think I'm gonna slap someone!!!

...and the genius negotiators wait until they've agreed a really good discount before they mention this request so you have to put your foot down and say "no, I really can't afford that anymore" and ruin the good feeling they had about the deal they negotiated!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the cut-and-thrust of a good negotiation much more than someone who comes in and pays full price, but there comes a time where you have to stop asking for free stuff and just buy the bloody car!!