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It's Islamofascist rear end kissing season in Canterbury ....
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I dont mean wild generalisations like "All x are y and always have been."
Im talking about the kind of Generalisations that we use to talk about larger realities such as: "On the whole, house prices fell last year." Thats a generalisation: Of course it misses detail, some house prices will have risen and others fallen, but the average is that the market as a whole fell.
Thats the kind of generalisation I am making. And, on the whole it is true. A large section of humanity has chosen to turn it;s back on modernity and embrace ignorance. This is not good.
Thats all Im saying. Deny it if you like. You can take a seat at the back with that guy who's telling you to buy a house, cause the "prices are bound to rise."So what you're saying is that, over the last 40 years or so, the majority of predominantly Muslim nations in the world have become extremely right-wing. Again, I disagree; it's far too general (and inaccurate) a statement.
Yes that is what Im saying. To provide detail on this statement would require several hundred thousand pages of elegantly reserarched, meticulously footnoted data. This is an internet message board, therefore I provide you with a neat generalisation instead.
What alternative do you suggest? And do you , personally think that everything is fine and dandy in the countries we refer to when we use the term "Muslim World." ?
I submit that if you really thought about , you wouldnt.0 -
Yes they have, Muslims & Christians, theists & atheists alike.LaVidaLoca wrote: »A large section of humanity has chosen to turn it;s back on modernity and embrace ignorance.
So basically what you're saying is, it's easier to make a broad generalisation than to do some research into each specific case? It might be easier, but it's also ignorant.LaVidaLoca wrote: »To provide detail on this statement would require several hundred thousand pages of elegantly reserarched, meticulously footnoted data. This is an internet message board, therefore I provide you with a neat generalisation instead.
I think there are a great many difficulties in the world, both inside and outside the "Muslim World".LaVidaLoca wrote: »And do you , personally think that everything is fine and dandy in the countries we refer to when we use the term "Muslim World." ?0 -
That's sh*t talk, and during the actual Dark Ages in Europe it was Muslims who were making the most advances. Think before type
That's precisely why Im decrying the slip back into barbarism. Think before YOU type. You are absolutely correct that the Islamic world was more advanced than the European 500 odd years ago. What a pity then that since the 1960's large sections of it have begun to revert back to a medieval state.0 -
LaVidaLoca wrote: »That's precisely why Im decrying the slip back into barbarism. Think before YOU type. You are absolutely correct that the Islamic world was more advanced than the European 500 odd years ago. What a pity then that since the 1960's large sections of it have begun to revert back to a medieval state.
No matter how reasoned your argument, if you dare to say the Muslim world is slipping back into 7th century barbarism most people will label you as a Fascist or a racist to try and silence you.
I've known a couple of Muslim people and I'd have to say the ones I knew personally were decent people. Everyone I knew moved to the West to escape repressive regimes in their own countries. So I think it's right what you say, judge individuals as you meet them. But it's a fair comment to say that the Muslim world in general is rejecting the modern world and slipping back into barbarism.LaVidaLoca wrote:In the words of Hassaan Ali (the Somali Ex-muslim women who made the film "Submission" with the murdered Theo Van Gogh):
"To recognise that radical Islam is going to undermine the rule of law, especially for liberals it is very important, to stay far away from theories like multiculturalism that say that all cultures are alike, all religions are alike, because that leads to the creation of ethnic and religious enclaves and it's there that radical Islam thrives."
I just quoted this again because I think she is a very brave person and people should pay attention to what she says. The same people who are burying their head in the sand over Islam are usually the same people who passionately believe in multicultural societies and celebrate the demise of our shared culture.0 -
LaVidaLoca wrote: »That's precisely why Im decrying the slip back into barbarism. Think before YOU type. You are absolutely correct that the Islamic world was more advanced than the European 500 odd years ago. What a pity then that since the 1960's large sections of it have begun to revert back to a medieval state.
Do you have any thoughts on why it is supposedly going back to this state?
I have lots of muslim friends in London and in Muslim countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, The Maldives. They all seem normal and modern to me. Different ideas about God and Religion but they are able to use a computer :eek:0 -
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Noone's forcing them to be here - someone who doesn't like secular Western laws and traditions can always f*** off back to whatever Dark Ages hole they or their ancestors came from, where Sharia will most certainly be enshrined in the national constitution, with all the backward, savage barbarianism that this entails.
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I see you are well educated and understanding on world cultures.
A life in Politics awaits you, particularly foreign affairs. We need somone with your values and knowledge to represent this great nation :rolleyes:0 -
Could people please support the assertion that the Muslim World of 1.8 billion people is slipping back into the medieval ages. Given that Muslims had very different ideas about Islam during Medieval times and were generally much more progressive and liberal back then .. I fail to see how they are going back to this state?
Yes the Taliban was an insane and repressive regime but that example does not apply across the muslim world.0 -
My point exactly, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears. I've been to Turkey, Pakistan, UAE and Oman. Guess what? They all have cars, mobile phones, computers, etc. Granted, there are aspects of these cultures that are less than perfect, but Ireland is hardly a shining example of how a nation should be.Yes the Taliban was an insane and repressive regime but that example does not apply across the muslim world.0 -
The problem that we are talking about here cannot be solved by your sort of thinking. There seem to be two attitudes to this problem:
(A) The right-wing racist BNP "send em home where they came from" attitude. Muslims are savages and always will be, end of story.
(B) The lefty , everyone's ok , and whatever people do in foreign cultures is OK , cause 'its their culture.'
Im am proposing a more nuanced approach. As everyone knows, the world as a whole is facing a major problem called Islamic fundamentalism. Do you deny this?
Your attitude is literally like going to 1970's Cambodia and saying that everything is A-OK over there, because you dont want to be rude and criticise Cambodian people's culture.So basically what you're saying is, it's easier to make a broad generalisation than to do some research into each specific case? It might be easier, but it's also ignorant.
No. Again, you're missing the point. This is an internet message board. By neccessity generalisations will be made, as people have a limited amount of time and space in which to express complex ideas about very large and complicated events.
The things you have said are no less generalisations than mine. I didnt see you posting a 300 page, expertly footnoted thesis on contemporary Middle-Eastern politics. You simply make a lazy assumption, that everything is fine and dandy because 'reality is more complex'. Well, philosophically speaking, OF COURSE, when talking about anything at all, reality is always more complex, than anything we can say about it.
Here, at least for what it its worth, is a link.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54018
40 per cent of British Muslims think Sharia Law should be introduced into the UK. Young Muslims are more likely to support Al-Queda than their parents: Probably the first example in the Western world of a younger generation being more socially conservative than their parents.
You dont think this might indicate there's a problem? At least consider the possibility.0 -
LaVidaLoca wrote: »As everyone knows, the world as a whole is facing a major problem called Islamic fundamentalism. Do you deny this?
I deny it. Neo Conservative nonsense.
As a sidenote .. How much do you actually know about Sharia? Have you read much on it? I have and I'm fine with most of it in theory .. its the application and interpretation of it that is the problem. But again these problems are faced by most 3rd world countries .. not many of them are shining examples when it comes to Human rights0 -
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(C) There are oppressive regimes as well as conservative people in the world, irrespective of religion.LaVidaLoca wrote: »(A) The right-wing racist BNP "send em home where they came from" attitude. Muslims are savages and always will be, end of story.
(B) The lefty , everyone's ok , and whatever people do in foreign cultures is OK , cause 'its their culture.'
Religious fundamentalism is nothing new. I wouldn't be a fan of it myself, but it's difficult to dictate to people what they should and shouldn't believe.LaVidaLoca wrote: »As everyone knows, the world as a whole is facing a major problem called Islamic fundamentalism.
I will thank you not to put words in my mouth. At what point did I condone the House of Saud or the Taliban?LaVidaLoca wrote: »Your attitude is literally like going to 1970's Cambodia and saying that everything is A-OK over there, because you dont want to be rude and criticise Cambodian people's culture.
Please indicate specifically where I said this.LaVidaLoca wrote: »You simply make a lazy assumption, that everything is fine and dandy...
Yes, I saw that article in the Telegraph. First of all, it as already been pointed out that Sharia is not what most people think it to be. But anyway, it's not something I would support, nor would the overwhelming majority of UK residents.LaVidaLoca wrote: »40 per cent of British Muslims think Sharia Law should be introduced into the UK.0 -
LaVidaLoca wrote: »
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54018
40 per cent of British Muslims think Sharia Law should be introduced into the UK. Young Muslims are more likely to support Al-Queda than their parents: Probably the first example in the Western world of a younger generation being more socially conservative than their parents.
You dont think this might indicate there's a problem? At least consider the possibility.
Ah, the World nut daily? Home to the likes of Ann Coulter.....
As for the poll, well here is a quote from the article:Poll results for the 16-24 age group, with 209 respondents
I think its generally accepted you need at least a 1000 respondents (which the overall poll does have, but doesn't have in the case of the group we are talking about) to come up with a representative sample, and I am just talking about the bare minimum here. A lot more than that should be done to get a representative poll, but I would expect more people would need to be polled at least to draw a meaningful conclusion.
So the poll is actually talking about 209 young British Muslims and I would contend that it is not representative considering the numbers polled. So your proof is wanting to say the least. The source you choose, I would also say is rather telling.0 -
I deny it. Neo Conservative nonsense.
Try saying that to the victims of Islamic terrorism. Who flew airplanes into the twin towers? Islamic fundamentalists? Who detonated explosives on a commuter train in Madrid? Islamic fundamentalists? How about the bombing in London? Where did these terrorist barbarians draw their inspiration? I'll wager they all thought 72 virgins would be awaiting them after they slaughtered a whole bunch of innocent people.As a sidenote .. How much do you actually know about Sharia? Have you read much on it? I have and I'm fine with most of it in theory .. its the application and interpretation of it that is the problem. But again these problems are faced by most 3rd world countries .. not many of them are shining examples when it comes to Human rights
I'm so happy you're content to let god decide how you live. The rest of us would like to decide for ourselves.0 -
..... The source you choose, I would also say is rather telling.
The fact you don't even bat an eyelid at one third saying conversion from Islam should be punished by death is very telling! I think if one third of Christian respondents said they thought conversion from Christianity should be punished by death, you wouldn't be so unconcerned about it.0 -
Sesshoumaru wrote: »The fact you don't even bat an eyelid at one third saying conversion from Islam should be punished by death is very telling! I think if one third of Christian respondents said they thought conversion from Christianity should be punished by death, you wouldn't be so unconcerned about it.
I find it strange that you ignore the numbers involved. Which I pointed out. The number was 209 for the age group being singled out. So seeing as that we are talking about opinions of 209 people, is that really representative of young British Muslims? See that the issue I brought up, the number involved in the poll, I didn't ignore what was said, but took issue with the numbers. So I am hardly ignoring anything, in fact you ignoring why I took issue with the poll, which is the numbers involved.
So nice try in trying to misrepresent what I am saying. Once again very telling, instead of trying to address what I posted you resort to hyperbole instead of tackling my point head on.
As for your comment on my opinion of Christians, what do you base this on? Seeing as I never said anything your suggesting. Very odd comment I have to say. Are you trying to suggest I hate Christians? I would certainly take issue with any such accusation.
Also, the World Nut Daily is one hell of a joke of a "news" web site. I had a quick look at some of the other stories. The site in question has global warming denialism stories on it, here is an example:
Garbage in, garbage out: More bad warming data
So I find the source questionable, seeing as they are ignoring the reality of global warming and have a neo-conservative agenda. So why wouldn't I find issue with such a source?
Also, the poll were done over the phone and the Internet. We also, don't know how they verified if the respondents were Muslim or not. This is especially concerning since the poll was partially done over the Internet.0 -
I find it strange that you ignore the numbers involved. Which I pointed out. The number was 209 for the age group being singled out. So seeing as that we are talking about opinions of 209 people, is that really representative of young British Muslims? See that the issue I brought up, the number involved in the poll, I didn't ignore what was said, but took issue with the numbers. So I am hardly ignoring anything, in fact you ignoring why I took issue with the poll, which is the numbers involved.
So nice try in trying to misrepresent what I am saying. Once again very telling, instead of trying to address what I posted you resort to hyperbole instead of tackling my point head on.
As for your comment on my opinion of Christians, what do you base this on? Seeing as I never said anything your suggesting. Very odd comment I have to say. Are you trying to suggest I hate Christians? I would certainly take issue with any such accusation.
Also, the World Nut Daily is one hell of a joke of a "news" web site. I had a quick look at some of the other stories. The site in question has global warming denialism stories on it, here is an example:
Garbage in, garbage out: More bad warming data
So I find the source questionable, seeing as they are ignoring the reality of global warming and have a neo-conservative agenda. So why wouldn't I find issue with such a source?
Also, the poll were done over the phone and the Internet. We also, don't know how they verified if the respondents were Muslim or not. This is especially concerning since the poll was partially done over the Internet.
Do you feel as inclined to doubt the validity of the poll if the Guardian reports it?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion
My Christian point was that people on Boards and people in general who label themselves liberals, can't stop banging on about violence in the bible whenever someone brings up Islamic terrorism. Despite the fact that no Christian group has piloted planes into a skyscraper killing thousands of people. I'm sure someone has mentioned Christianity in relation to violence in this thread already. My apologies if it wasn't you!
Can I just ask you, in your opinion does the Western world have a problem with Islam? How do you view the Islamic/Western world?0 -
Sesshoumaru wrote: »Do you feel as inclined to doubt the validity of the poll if the Guardian reports it?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion
Again the number I mentioned still applies regardless of who is reporting it. The number from the age group we are talking about is 209. Somehow I don't see that as representative of young British Muslims. I also raised some other issues I had with the poll.Sesshoumaru wrote: »Can I just ask you, in your opinion does the Western world have a problem with Islam? How do you view the Islamic/Western world?
Terrorism committed by some Muslims is of course a problem.
However, I see a lot of fear mongering being trotted out. Here is an example of what I am talking about: Some "research" done by a right wing think tank policy exchange:
Newsnight - policy exchange report
I see stuff like this all the time. I see rubbish about Muslims over running Europe due to there high birth rate and other rubbish.
Terrorism is a problem, no doubt about that but why all the unnecessary hyperbole and out and out lies from some groups? When someone starts screaming wolf, e.g. Iraq imaginary WMD's, the aforementioned policy exchange report, after a while all the bull runs together.
**EDIT**
Another interesting observation is that the polls lead author Munira Mirza (as per the Guardian article), has done work for the aforementioned Policy Exchange, here is a quote from a Guardian article written by her:· Munira Mirza is a writer, researcher and co-author of the Policy Exchange report Living Apart Together: British Muslims and the Paradox of Multiculturalism
(Bolding is done by me)
I have to say I trust the poll even less after finding this out, considering the caliber of "researchers" Policy exchange uses.0 -
Sesshoumaru wrote: »Try saying that to the victims of Islamic terrorism. Who flew airplanes into the twin towers? Islamic fundamentalists? Who detonated explosives on a commuter train in Madrid? Islamic fundamentalists? How about the bombing in London? Where did these terrorist barbarians draw their inspiration? I'll wager they all thought 72 virgins would be awaiting them after they slaughtered a whole bunch of innocent people.
You tell me where they drew their inspiration from if you know so much? How many people have died in the world as a result of Islamic Fundamentalism or extremism? I think its hardly a world threat now is it? Since they have little or no support in most of the world I can hardly see them taking over any day soon :rolleyes: Islamic fundamentalism whatver you might think is not an organised or coherent movement which had little or no support before 911. The actions of the US after 911 have only increased the support for it.
All of this war on terror is just a repeat of the Neo Conservative scarmongering that went on during the cold war. It's all a load of horsehit and propoganda. If you were familiar with Neo Conservatism and its origins with Strauss then you would be aware of this.Sesshoumaru wrote:I'm so happy you're content to let god decide how you live. The rest of us would like to decide for ourselves.
Huh? Where did i say something to that effect? If I dont kill somebody and that is one of the ten commandments .. does that mean I am living under Gods law? It can be argued that morality and law has its origins in religion .. As long as religious law promotes human rights and freedom then I have no problem with it. I do believe in democracy though .. and if people want to live under religious law then they should be able to if the majority rules in favour of it.0 -
You tell me where they drew their inspiration from if you know so much? How many people have died in the world as a result of Islamic Fundamentalism or extremism? I think its hardly a world threat now is it? Since they have little or no support in most of the world I can hardly see them taking over any day soon :rolleyes: Islamic fundamentalism whatver you might think is not an organised or coherent movement which had little or no support before 911. The actions of the US after 911 have only increased the support for it.
All of this war on terror is just a repeat of the Neo Conservative scarmongering that went on during the cold war. It's all a load of horsehit and propoganda. If you were familiar with Neo Conservatism and its origins with Strauss then you would be aware of this.
You try to sound very authoritative on these matters, but little or no support? The Palestinians were dancing in the street and handing out Candy when the twin towers fell.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1691.htm
As you can see the "moderate" sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi says suicide operations has support among scholars. Which I guess means a fair few Muslims support them as well.Playboy wrote:Huh? Where did i say something to that effect? If I dont kill somebody and that is one of the ten commandments .. does that mean I am living under Gods law? It can be argued that morality and law has its origins in religion .. As long as religious law promotes human rights and freedom then I have no problem with it. I do believe in democracy though .. and if people want to live under religious law then they should be able to if the majority rules in favour of it.
See this is why we have things like constitutions to protect us from the tyranny of the majority.0 -
Were you in Palestine at the time? I'm not sure what the relevance of that comment is?Sesshoumaru wrote: »The Palestinians were dancing in the street and handing out Candy when the twin towers fell.
Yes, if he said it then it MUST be true; he OBVIOUSLY speaks for every Muslim on the planet :rolleyes:.Sesshoumaru wrote: »As you can see the "moderate" sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi says suicide operations has support among scholars. Which I guess means a fair few Muslims support them as well.0 -
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Sesshoumaru wrote: »You try to sound very authoritative on these matters, but little or no support? The Palestinians were dancing in the street and handing out Candy when the twin towers fell.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1691.htm
As you can see the "moderate" sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi says suicide operations has support among scholars. Which I guess means a fair few Muslims support them as well.
Yeah that proves it .. You win!:rolleyes:Sesshoumaru wrote:See this is why we have things like constitutions to protect us from the tyranny of the majority.
Can the majority not change the constution in a referendum?0 -
Sesshoumaru wrote: »You try to sound very authoritative on these matters, but little or no support? The Palestinians were dancing in the street and handing out Candy when the twin towers fell.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1691.htm
Source watch on Memri:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=MEMRI
As for the Palestinian comment. Well what does it have to do with anything? I agree, what they people in the CNN video footage (i think it was CNN) are doing is terrible. Of course, how many people were actually in the video? Does it represent the average Palestinian?
Yes, some Palestinians aren't fond of the US, in fact they out and out hate them. May have something to do with America giving an Apartheid state Israel, billions to murder them, imprison them, colonize what little they have left of there nation. Of course such things tend to be left out to show the Palestinians as uniquely evil.0 -
I'm equally dismissive of your arguments. You just jump in and say you've read X Y Z and we can trust in your word that we're wrong :rolleyes:Yeah that proves it .. You win!:rolleyes:
Fact is you are wrong, Islamic terrorists had plenty of support pre 911. How long has Saudi Arabia been allowed to spread its ideology of hate? A long time before 911! Whether it increased/decreased afterwards due to the actions of America is a different debate.Playboy wrote:Can the majority not change the constution in a referendum?
Changing the constitution is more time consuming and difficult. As it should be. A majority of people may wish for something that is not in the long term interest of the state or the interest of all of its citizens. I'm sure plenty of Republicans in the US might like Christian law implemented if there were such a thing? But thankfully the US has a strong constitution that can resist temporary swings to the extreme in either direction.0 -
Apparently there was little or no support for Islamic terrorists pre 911. But some Palestinians suffered no social consequences from dancing in the street celebrating the deaths of thousands of civilians. Some of whom were Muslims as well.Were you in Palestine at the time? I'm not sure what the relevance of that comment is?djpbarry wrote:Yes, if he said it then it MUST be true; he OBVIOUSLY speaks for every Muslim on the planet :rolleyes:.
He is considered "mainstream moderate". I never said he speaks for all Muslims. But he does claim to be in a position of authority with Islam. Maybe I'm the only one who considers it frightening to see these kind of views aired by someone within a position of authority in Islam and who is considered "moderate"?0 -
Sesshoumaru wrote: »Apparently there was little or no support for Islamic terrorists pre 911. But some Palestinians suffered no social consequences from dancing in the street celebrating the deaths of thousands of civilians. Some of whom were Muslims as well.
People who support a apartheid state Israel, face no social consequences here. An apartheid state that murders civilians and imprisons thousands in the worlds largest prison called the Gaza strip. Some people even call this state a democracy, a progressive one even. Does that make these people responsible and does that make anyone who shares a religion or ethnicity responsible too?
What do you even mean about social consequences in anyways? How do you know they didn't face any such consequences?
If they didn't maybe Palestinians were more concerned with feeding there children, then getting into something with one of there neighbors who is an asshole. Maybe, they couldn't get by an IDF check point to do anything, seeing as access to East Jerusalem is severely limited to Palestinians. You know when you ability to move around is so limited, Palestinians may decide trying to get to there job or university is more important than annoying some idiots.
I find it odd that the democratically elected government of the US of A is supporting a state illegally occupying and actively colonizing Palestine, and yet some how the American people should be considered not responsible for supporting apartheid and racism against Palestinians seeing as they elected them (i don't think they support apartheid or racism btw, just that the majority remain ignorant of the situation) and yet somehow some Palestinians (asshole dancing in the street) who no one elected to represent Palestinians or even the 1 billion odd Muslims in the world some how represent them and make them guilty along side these people. Also, because you seem to think nothing was done to these people, then the Palestinians/Muslims must agree with them, it not like they have more important things to worry about.0 -
Pakistanis dream of a peaceful life as hardliners routed in Peshawar
Music and dancing are back as a poll landslide for secular parties brings a vibrant change to the North-West Frontier
# Jason Burke in Peshawar
# The Observer,
# Sunday February 24 2008
Sinking back in his armchair, Maulana Shuja ul-Mulk strokes his thick beard with one hand and the fluffy tail of a small toy dalmatian with the other. 'We were surprised by the results,' he admits from a supporter's home in the small rural western Pakistani town of Mardan, 'but we believe in democracy.'
Whether the claim is true or not, the hard political reality is that Mulk and his hardline religious party are now out of power. In the 2002 election, he and scores of other ultra-conservative clerics swept into government in Pakistan's turbulent North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) on a tide of anti-Americanism and resurgent religious enthusiasm, vowing to impose Islamic law. But in last week's national and provincial polls, voters backed secular and liberal candidates and evicted the ruling alliance of religious parties.
The landslide triggered what some are now calling the 'Peshawar Spring'. The term may be a little exaggerated, but, for a troubled town pivotal to the 'war on terror', the normally dour and dusty provincial capital of NWFP certainly wears an unusually cheerful face this weekend. 'You can see it in the way people are walking and talking, even smiling,' said Iqbal Khattak, the editor of a local newspaper. Outside his office, unseasonable warm weather has tricked fruit trees into blossoming early. 'We are having two early springs here: one is the climate, the other the politics.'
In the bazaars and on the streets, change is already visible - and audible. Though the Islamic law bill that the hardliners passed in the provincial parliament was blocked at national level, the clerics were able to ban music in public places or on public transport. Now the sounds of local Pashtun folk music and Punjabi Bhangra are back - first in the street celebrations every evening last week, and then as the province's thousands of bus drivers once again slipped a cassette or CD into the stereos of their overloaded and over-decorated vehicles. 'Now I have music, I love my job again,' said Ashraf Mohmandi, one of the local drivers. 'I can breathe once more.'
Click here for the rest of the article
Interesting article. Even in the tribal areas of Pakistan, Muslim radicals don't even seem to have the control that some would have us believe.
While I do believe Jihadist terrorists are dangerous. i very much believe that the Neo-conservatives and others are exaggerating a real threat and in some cases (i have posted some examples of these in earlier posts) out and out lying to gain support for there foreign adventures and to stir up fear and hatred to get themselves reelected.0 -
Another interesting article written by a Palestinian (from what is admittedly biased Electronic intifada):A third way
Haidar Eid, The Electronic Intifada, 21 February 2008
"You are either with us, or with the terrorists," said US President George W. Bush a couple of days after the horrendous 2001 attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Prior to this statement, Bush had made it clear that his is a "crusade" against "terror" and "the powers of darkness." This simplistic binary approach employed by the American president and his right-wing administration -- supported wholeheartedly by the powerful CNNized media -- attempts to close the door in the face of a third way: a more rational, secular and democratic one that fights terrorism whether nihilistic or state-sponsored.
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The oppressed all over the world, Palestinians in particular, grieved the loss of innocent lives in New York, Pennsylvania and the capital that day. But Palestinians have been the victims of the same kind of disregard for human life since 1948, inflected on them by American-made weapons. And now it's the Afghani and Iraqi peoples' turn to get stuck between the American "with us" or "against us."
The "third way" that secular intellectuals defend, condemns terrorism and supports the fight against it. However, the criterion it follows is a universal one. That is, if the US is prepared to censure Israel for its illegal occupation of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and for its massacres of civilian Palestinians and extra-judicial assassinations of political leaders, expropriation of Palestinian lands, demolishing of houses, building of illegal Jewish settlements, "third way" supporters should not have a moral problem supporting the "western" fight against terrorism.
Click here for full article
Go figure a Palestinian against terrorism, but has a problem with hypocrisy of certain Western nations.
Certainly an interesting take on things, you can be against stupid foreign adventures to make Haliburton a few billion more and against apartheid and still be against terrorism.0 -
Sesshoumaru wrote: »I'm equally dismissive of your arguments. You just jump in and say you've read X Y Z and we can trust in your word that we're wrong :rolleyes:
Fact is you are wrong, Islamic terrorists had plenty of support pre 911. How long has Saudi Arabia been allowed to spread its ideology of hate? A long time before 911! Whether it increased/decreased afterwards due to the actions of America is a different debate.
Hmmmm .. well reading X Y Z is better than reading nothing at all! Look if you want to form an informed opinion that is backed up by the reality of the situation then so some reading. Start with Leo Strauss and Neo Conservatism and it might begin to open your eyes!! Then start reading about Islamic fundementalism, the Muslim Brotherhood, the history of the Palestinian conflict, Sharia Law etc etc and then you might come to the realization that all the stuff you see on Sky news is absolute horse****.
There was little or no support for the Jihadist's before 911 .. Their aim to create Islamic republics had failed miserably after they failed to win any kind of support after murdering lots of muslims in countries such as Algeria and Egypt. The US reaction to 911 only served to radicalise large amounts of Muslims all around the world. This is exactly what the Jihadist's wanted and hoped would happen. Still ... the amount of Muslims that actually supports Terrorism is tiny when you take into account the amount of Muslims living in the world today. If you think differently then you have to back up that assertion with facts .. something you are not going to be able to do i'm afraid.0 -
Just to turn everything on it's head it seems 99% of Brits now want a more extreme version of Sharia Law than even Muslims do!
http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1306648,00.html (Check photo 10 - the Sun)0 -
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irishconvert wrote: »Just to turn everything on it's head it seems 99% of Brits now want a more extreme version of Sharia Law than even Muslims do!
http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1306648,00.html (Check photo 10 - the Sun)
as quoted from that bastion of truth and quality reporting- the sun.0
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