Air Traffic Controllers "strike"

Oilrig

Good on you guys, about time you made an issue out of this. The IAA need to wake up.

kraggy

Glad you put strike in inverted commas.

Nothing of the sort. Simply refusing to do overtime and come in on days off.

Oilrig

kraggy wrote: »

Glad you put strike in inverted commas.

Glad you noticed.

Darwin

My understanding from news reports last night were that they are to discuss what form the industrial action is to take, no?

irishatco

kraggy wrote: »

Glad you put strike in inverted commas.

Nothing of the sort. Simply refusing to do overtime and come in on days off.

Refusing to do voluntary overtime, that is not included in an ATCO's T&Cs and is not rostered for (with an organised standby scheme like many other ANSPs and airlines).

God forbid that controllers would like to ensure they are adequately rested before they commence duty...:rolleyes:

Darwin wrote:

My understanding from news reports last night were that they are to discuss what form the industrial action is to take, no?

The current situation is that controllers are simply not making themselves available for overtime. The IAA maintains it does not rely on overtime and that only 2% of contracted hours are covered by overtime...if that is the case where is there problem with ATCOs not volunteering for extra duties?

They claim there is no staff shortage, yet their next cadet intake will be a class of 36 (50% more than on any other SCP intake) and they are seeking direct entry rated-ATCOs (though doing it on the cheap, not advertising just making it known they'd like an aul CV sent in...:rolleyes:) and they have sent out begging letters to recent retirees to offer employment as instructors in Ballycasey so they are not forced to release more controllers from operational duties. Understaffed? Who's understaffed?

You are right though Darwin, a ballot has been held and 99% of members have voted for industrial action, the form of which has yet to be decided. More discussions are to take place between IMPACT and the IAA on Tuesday week, no strike notice will be served until after that at the earliest.

I must add that the feeling among staff is particularly strong at the moment, helped (or not, depending on what side of fence you stand on) by the IAA releasing a number of inflamatory statements accusing staff of orchestrating this action which IMO is a slur on the small number of staff who are currently absent on sick leave...how dare they be ill?

They also accuse the staff of being in breach of the partnership agreements, this from a company who conducts it's HR in the Labour Court and had to be ordered by the Labour Court to process pay rises due under the partnership model after they cried poverty (with increasing profits year on year and sizeable holdings in the bank)

I do hope people realise this is not an issue of money, it is an issue of staffing and proper arrangements to cover staff shortages. The IAA continues to believe that a small number of staff can keep their roster going through an ad hoc overtime system, that is exceptionally poor management.

More reading available here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=310303

Safe flying.

Oilrig

I read in the paper of record that strike notice was served today.

Serious decision.

Good luck guys.

irishatco

Unlikely things will get that far but thanks for the support.

Couldn't make the union briefings today as was busy with personal stuff but am told both the Dept of Transport and ICTU intervened over the weekend to prevent a split between our parent union and our staff reps, all are singing from the same hymn sheet now.

The IAA's latest press release seems much more restrained, maybe its cos they realise they are in serious zhit right now.

Notice of industrial action given today prior to an LRC hearing next week, the IAA have been told they need to deliver at those talks or work stoppages will happen. If they continue to play silly buggers staff will respond in kind.

It should be noted that none of this would have happened if the IAA hadn't acted so hamfisted in dealing with the original dispute, and lambasted their own staff in the national press. When will the clowns in Hawkins Street learn? Pretty much anyone involved in aviation has seen their true colours at this stage, 4th lowest user charges in Europe, the LCC of the ATC world.

FlutterinBantam

So everybody in Hawkins St is a "clown" is that it?

And the good guys work out at Dublin Airport.???

There has to be more than that in it surely???

irishatco

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

So everybody in Hawkins St is a "clown" is that it?

On the HR side of things, pretty much.

They have squandered the goodwill of staff over the last few years (a staff body that has consistently delivered in terms of modernisation and procedures), they believe partnership means they get to say NO NO NO until the Labour Court intervenes then they have to back down.

Do you think that an ad hoc system of overtime is an adequate way of addressing short term absences? A refusal to consider recruitment until we are at breaking point? A refusal to face the consequences of recruiting a number of women of child bearing age then not planning for any absences due to pregnancy?

They have survived by doing everything on the cheap up until now, by relying on the goodwill of staff. Now that they have exhausted that they will need to deliver.

This is NOT an issue of money. The vast majority of ATCOs do not wish to work any an overtime, we already work in excess of 1600hrs a year, and would rather have adequate rest between duties so that we are fit for duty when we do attend. Would you work an extra 20% on top of your 900hrs?

ch252

I agree with you on the fact that the decisions HR make are crap. Some of the people that didn't get in to the atc class this year, take a military controller from England who didn't get in because he just missed out on the educational side of it, if anyone can control they know its him like. But also, I know a few controllers in Shannon and Shannon center, and well from knowing them they are very nice people and if you ask me, wouldn't take industrial action if it was not absolutely necessary to do so. They have arguably the most stressfull job in the world so the IAA need to seriously wake up, they are too set in their ways IMO.

Darragh

FlutterinBantam

irishatco wrote: »

On the HR side of things, pretty much.

They have squandered the goodwill of staff over the last few years (a staff body that has consistently delivered in terms of modernisation and procedures), they believe partnership means they get to say NO NO NO until the Labour Court intervenes then they have to back down.

Do you think that an ad hoc system of overtime is an adequate way of addressing short term absences? A refusal to consider recruitment until we are at breaking point? A refusal to face the consequences of recruiting a number of women of child bearing age then not planning for any absences due to pregnancy?

They have survived by doing everything on the cheap up until now, by relying on the goodwill of staff. Now that they have exhausted that they will need to deliver.

This is NOT an issue of money. The vast majority of ATCOs do not wish to work any an overtime, we already work in excess of 1600hrs a year, and would rather have adequate rest between duties so that we are fit for duty when we do attend. Would you work an extra 20% on top of your 900hrs?

very good response there.... I can see where you are coming from now, and if what you say is true,and I believe that by and large it is,all I can say is best of luck with your campaign.

PhoenixRising

@irishatco

You have the support from all of us on the other side of the mic. It's a safety issue. The Air Traffic Services in this country should not be reliant on overtime, as evidenced by the total collapse of the system when that overtime is withdrawn.

The monkeys you have for management sound very like the monkeys we have here.

Good luck, you have my full support and that of my colleagues.

ch252

PhoenixRising wrote: »

@irishatco

You have the support from all of us on the other side of the mic. It's a safety issue. The Air Traffic Services in this country should not be reliant on overtime, as evidenced by the total collapse of the system when that overtime is withdrawn.

The monkeys you have for management sound very like the monkeys we have here.

Good luck, you have my full support and that of my colleagues.

Same here, but the IAA aren't going to be overly worried about tower controllers goin on strike....its the controllers at Shannon center that make them money, ie. when Dublins went on strike, Shannon center can do Dublin center. If Shannon High level, or even low level go on strike.....then they are rightly f*****. The towers only disrupted about 20 flights(thats a guesstimate) but if the Controllers at Shannon center went on strike, the towers may as well not be there either because nothing will be going out of ANY airports in the country, well thats the conclusion I have come to frm what I have been told. Irishatco, if he/she is an atc which I have no doubt you are, would be able to tell us more on the procedures in place for things like this.

Darragh

Davidth88

People

A note from the passenger here , please do everything you can to get this sorted asap.

I didn't get home from Paris until nearly 1am on Weds because of this........

I am really surprised that ATC people don't have regulated hours like pilots/cabin crew as said by previous posters this is not an easy job, and it's not a job you can make mistakes at for sure.

Smokey Bear

I think its more of a safety issue when you can have people working up to 9 days in a row!!
Each dot on screen can have up to 300 paxs so 2 dots pass to close oooopps 600 pax gone!!
The regulator of the IAA that is ment to watch over it and make sure it operates safely is paid for by the IAA.Bit of a joke i think.
Good luck ,hope you get what you want.

Smokey Bear

FlutterinBantam

Easy on the dramatics there Smokey.... throttle back there.

It's nowhere near that scenario .:rolleyes:

Smokey Bear

FlutterinBantam,

So people are not working up to 9 days in a row ???Know for fact they have,why are they doing it not enough staff.The IAA would rather have this than close a sector down due staff shortages.No law to stop them as they are excempt from working time act.

Are controllers concerned about the situation ?Yes

So 2 A330 don't hold more than 600 pax ?? yes they do

So the IAA regulator is not paid for by the IAA?? it for sure is

Although systems in place to prevent such incident it does not always work, its all the little things that add up to make an accident.

Smokey

FlutterinBantam

Smokey Bear wrote: »

FlutterinBantam,

So people are not working up to 9 days in a row ???Know for fact they have,why are they doing it not enough staff.The IAA would rather have this than close a sector down due staff shortages.No law to stop them as they are excempt from working time act.

Are controllers concerned about the situation ?Yes

So 2 A330 don't hold more than 600 pax ?? yes they do

So the IAA regulator is not paid for by the IAA?? it for sure is

Although systems in place to prevent such incident it does not always work, its all the little things that add up to make an accident.

Smokey

yeah yeah yeah,Sure these things can happen.

please don't be alarmist and suggest that this issue could lead to imminent mid air collisions over Ireland,and present a worse case scenario.

I am on your side,but for fcuk sake ,lets not lose the run of ourselves here.

peasant

I'm supposed to fly from Sligo to Dub and then to Gatwick on the 27th, to catch flight for a once in a lifetime holiday from there the following morning.

The 27th is the second day of supposed all out industrial action :rolleyes:

Should I make alternative arrangments now (book a flight from Belfast / book a ferry ticket and drive to bloody Gatwick)?

The air traffic controllers have my full support for their actions ...but you couldn't have picked another date, could you?

Tenger

kraggy wrote: »

Nothing of the sort. Simply refusing to do overtime and come in on days off.

Under Irish law isn't this form of protest still considered Industrial Action.

I know a couple of years ago when EI cabin crew (and indeed pilots recently)
began 'working to rule' it was called variously 'strike' or 'industrial action'


Oh and I think they are in the right. The IAA has recruited so few in recent years while the workload of overhead and inbound traffic has increased dramatically. Apparently experienced controllers are being denied taking early retirement due to a lack of staff.

irishatco

darragh-k wrote: »

Same here, but the IAA aren't going to be overly worried about tower controllers goin on strike....its the controllers at Shannon center that make them money, ie. when Dublins went on strike, Shannon center can do Dublin center.

Not quite the case.

There are contingency plans to provide some continued level of service if either Shannon or Dublin center are unusable (say in the event of a fire), but they rely on controllers from one station travelling to the other to provide the service from there.

There are no Shannon controllers who hold Dublin ratings, therefore there are no controllers who can provide Dublin services from Shannon in the event of a work stoppage in Dublin.

darragh-k wrote: »

If Shannon High level, or even low level go on strike.....then they are rightly f*****. The towers only disrupted about 20 flights(thats a guesstimate) but if the Controllers at Shannon center went on strike, the towers may as well not be there either because nothing will be going out of ANY airports in the country, well thats the conclusion I have come to frm what I have been told. Irishatco, if he/she is an atc which I have no doubt you are, would be able to tell us more on the procedures in place for things like this.

Darragh

Again, not quite accurate. The majority of Dublin traffic enters and exits the CTA without working Shannon High Level, either from London, Manchester or Scottish centers.

The other state airports, plus the regionals, would be screwed.

Its true that Shannon has the earning power, but I'd balanced that by saying Dublin closing has greater potential to grab the headlines. Here's hoping it doesn't come to that.

Thanks for the words of support fellas.

ch252

Probably true, what I originally posted is what I heard off other people, not necessarily controllers! I always thought that Shannon could do eidw center if it was an emergency, there obviously wouldn't be much point in a case of industrial action because you cant do tower or ground with just a radar! I was wondering actually after I posted that what would happen in the event of a fire so thanks for clearing that up. I'll be following this closely because the IAA seriously need to wake up before this happens again.

Darragh

chuckles30

Can someone tell me what form the action will take after the 26th? Will it continue to be a couple of hours here and there? Or will the airports be closed completely? While I back the controllers, I'm due to fly out of Shannon that weekend for a family event and trying to decide if I need to book a ferry instead....

irishatco

darragh-k wrote: »

I always thought that Shannon could do eidw center if it was an emergency, there obviously wouldn't be much point in a case of industrial action because you cant do tower or ground with just a radar! I was wondering actually after I posted that what would happen in the event of a fire so thanks for clearing that up. I'll be following this closely because the IAA seriously need to wake up before this happens again.

Darragh

If there was a sudden evacuation of Dublin ACC then its possible for radar displays in Shannon to be reconfigured quickly to provide emergency radar cover, but that would only be to get any aircraft in Dublin's airspace safely on the ground at other airports. We could also call on our neighbours to the east to sort out any conflicts in delegated airspace or about to exit the CTA eastbound.

Logistically, it takes a couple of hours to set up a radar suite in either centre to operate a full service, phone lines and comms need to be tested, radar maps and radar settings also. As I said in my last post, nobdy in Shannon holds a Dublin radar rating, and so could not provide a Dublin area or approach service. Overflights might be abe to continue while working Shannon (as happens on Xmas day when Dublin ACC shuts and the airspace reverts to Shannon)

All a moot point, if there are stoppages they will most likely be country-wide rather than station-specific. And to answer the last posters question, no decision has been made yet regarding stoppages as to when and where, but I would imagine they would start with small 2 or 4 hours stoppages initially then escalate to full 24 hour stoppages if necessary. There should be news regarding the first action to be taken if there is no agreement reached on Tuesday in the LRC.

peasant

Any word on any further developments?

Oilrig

Unofficial...

Info seems to suggest no agreement reached.

All speculation at this stage.

kraggy

No progress.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mheysngbqley/

peasant

A full day of strike on the 28th

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0220/airtraffic.html

RoundyMooney

Phew!

I miss it by one day!

knightmare

Unfortunatly I didn't. Without taking sides, just what does this mean for the ordinary Joe soap who has paid for flights (& hotels) months in advance?
Would the flight go the next day or am I just gonna have to take it on the chin?

Tenger

knightmare wrote: »

Unfortunatly I didn't. Without taking sides, just what does this mean for the ordinary Joe soap who has paid for flights (& hotels) months in advance?
Would the flight go the next day or am I just gonna have to take it on the chin?

Contact your airline. Thye may be laying on extra flights the next day or may allow you to change your flights for a fee.
Read you insurance policy,it may allow you to be re-imbursed for the cost of changing flights.
Most probably the airlines will assume the flights will operate as normal that, thinking that the dispute will be resolved before the 28th. I would assume any flights outside of Ireland will have no insurance backup. So you may have to get a flight on the 27th if you are getting a connection from outside the country on the 28th.