Air Traffic Controllers "strike"

qnhhpa

You are not butting in - you're very welcome.

As for an update...

The IAA and the IMPACT union return to the Labour Court on Monday. There will not be any resolution, however it is possible that the Labour Court will force the union to suspend the strike action on Thursday February 28th.

Don't know for definite what will happen. However, regardless of the outcome, controllers will not work extra duties on days off to cover staff shortfalls. I appologise for any disruption this may cause, but it is the safest option.

MrVostro

qnhhpa wrote: »

The issue at stake here is not money but safety.

Glad to hear it.

qnhhpa wrote: »

A recent intake of trainees, originally 24, now 36 as a result of our actions, start training in mid March. The first of those will not be basically qualified until the end of 2009 at the earliest. By then an estimated 30 current controllers will have retired...

So problem solved? Or is it really about money after all.

How about they recruit 40 - 50 new controllers and there is no increase in salary and you dont have to do overtime?

Would it still not be about money?

qnhhpa

"How about they recruit 40 - 50 new controllers and there is no increase in salary and you dont have to do overtime?"

That would be it! I don't want money, I want my time off.

Girrrrseach

qnhhpa wrote: »

The IAA and the IMPACT union return to the Labour Court on Monday. There will not be any resolution, however it is possible that the Labour Court will force the union to suspend the strike action on Thursday February 28th.

Hmm, thanks for that. How likely do you think it would be that it would be suspended?

I completely understand the need for strike and I give my support, but the travelling public will need a yes or no answer by tomorrow so they can arranage alternative flights, surely??

fatherdougalmag

We're supposed to be flying on Thursday. Emmigrating actually. Whilst I understand the ATC's plight I can't help feeling that I'm going to suffer more than the IAA.

Is the travelling public the "child in the middle" of all of this?

FlutterinBantam

my sources indicate that there will not be a 24 hour strike on Thur.

Not gospel, but good info..

fatherdougalmag

Thanks FiB. Can't wait to get out of this place. Over the past few years I've come to the conclusion that the entire country is being on the Ryanair business model - provide the bare essentials at a minimum cost. I've got an autistic kid so we've had enough of a govt doing the bare minimum to satisfy their legal obligations and nothing above that. They just don't care.

Tenger

MrVostro wrote: »

So problem solved? Or is it really about money after all.

It is not about money. The ATCs are making a stand against doing OT which gives them double pay (A previous poster stated this)

Those new recruits (36) are not availible until the end of 2009. So we have abother 2 years of ATCs havinf onerous work conditions. They told the IAA to recruit before this and were not listened to.

No mention of money. No demands for compensation. No once off pay-off for agreement. Mick O'Leary always states money whne industrial action happens,unlike him not everyone is concerned solely with money. Some people want principle and quality (of life)


To fathetrdougalmag: good luck in your new life. Hope you get the care your son needs. I agree with your Ryanair mentality comment. My brother moved to N.Ireland so my severely mentally dissabled nephew could get adequate support and care.

FlutterinBantam

fatherdougalmag wrote: »

Thanks FiB. Can't wait to get out of this place. Over the past few years I've come to the conclusion that the entire country is being on the Ryanair business model - provide the bare essentials at a minimum cost. I've got an autistic kid so we've had enough of a govt doing the bare minimum to satisfy their legal obligations and nothing above that. They just don't care.

Hope it all works out,but when you see the media attention given to Aer Lingus and the ATC people when there is no loss of jobs at issue,and contrast this with the total lack of coverage to Arnotts situation where the workforce face over 500 job losses, you can't help getting the feeling that there is inequity in the system.
Slightly off topic,I would suggest that there will be a big change in attitude now with EI management,who will probably try to push thru change much more rapidly and with less softly softly approach.

I would expect that as a State service the ATC situation won't come to a 24 hr shutdown and some kind of interim settlement based on future staffing and resource management will stave off the crisis for the moment.

Tenger

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

but when you see the media attention given to Aer Lingus and the ATC people when there is no loss of jobs at issue,and contrast this with the total lack of coverage to Arnotts situation where the workforce face over 500 job losses, you can't help getting the feeling that there is inequity in the system.

I agree here. EI gets huge media attentiona and to my mind this doesn't help the situation. Why is that? Is it due to the perceived attitudes towards the aviation sector? Do the media think aviation is 'sexy'?
I would prefer if the negotiations would proceed without the travelling public being aware of it.
Other companies around the country have job losses and problems,they get 1-2 mentions on the news and thats mostly it.

rickymooney@mac

qnhhpa wrote: »

"How about they recruit 40 - 50 new controllers and there is no increase in salary and you dont have to do overtime?"

That would be it! I don't want money, I want my time off.

Date: February 24 2008

Headline: IAA CALLS ON IMPACT TO SETTLE DISPUTE FOR NO MONEY


24 FEBRUARY 2008: The IAA today calls on the IMPACT Trade Union to be clear and honest about the real issues at the Labour Court tomorrow and stop "fogging" their payment demands with made up staff shortages. In over 40 hours of talks at the Labour Relations Commission(LRC) to date, the issue of staff shortages has been discussed only 10% of the time while the Air Traffic Controllers' demands for more overtime pay and enhanced call in payments have been discussed 90% of the time. In the current negotiations on an alternate on-call/extra attendance arrangement at the LRC, Air Traffic Controllers are demanding an €11,000 payment for being on-call for 12 days per annum with an obligation to work only six. This works out at €1,833 per attendance. They are also demanding €125 per hour for any attendance over and above that level, including a minimum six hours payment for any attendance. This would amount to over €1,000 for an average duty and €750 for a one-two hour extension of a duty. An Air Traffic Controller at Heathrow Airport, London receives Stg£550 for a full shift of additional attendance.

There is no shortage of Air Traffic Controllers in the Irish Aviation Authority. Sufficient staff are available to match the level of traffic at any given time and are deployed in accordance with international safety standards. Staff plans are agreed on an annual basis. The Authority totally rejects IMPACT's assertion that it has accepted in talks at the LRC, that any shortage of controllers exist. This is NOT the case and never has been as the Authority has consistently pointed out in press releases.

The Irish Air Traffic Control System is not dependent on overtime. The average overtime attendance by Air Traffic Controllers in 2007 was less than one hour per week. The highest level of overtime in 2007 by an Air Traffic Controller was 302 hours a year or 6.5 hours per week on average.

The Authority recruits and trains Air Traffic Controllers (it takes 18-24 months at a cost of €270,000 to train one controller – paid exclusively by the IAA). As part of its manpower planning to meet forecasted traffic demands and expectant retirements, and not in response to IMPACT allegations of staff shortages, 36 students will commence training with the IAA in 10 days time. These will be fully operational in mid-2009. The advertisements to recruit these staff were placed in September 2007, months ahead of IMPACT action. A further class of students will commence early next year. There are 295 Air Traffic Controllers employed at present in Dublin, Shannon and Cork Airports.

This is an entirely made up dispute in that no "staffing issues" arose in the busy Summer and Christmas periods when traffic was at its peak and also maximum staff were on leave. The current disruptive action is orchestrated to ensure that the IAA is short of staff at key periods and for safety reasons the IAA has had to restrict traffic, reduce services or close airports.

Controllers were awarded an additional 5% pay increase in December 2007 in addition to the 10% paid under Towards 2016, despite claiming over 30%. From 1 January 2008 Air Traffic Controllers on the maximum of their scale, are paid €107,884 and the IAA makes a pension contribution of 31% giving a total remuneration package of €141,328 excluding overtime. Air Traffic Controllers enjoy a Defined Benefit Pension Scheme to which they contribute nothing. They may retire at 60 and receive half of their salary as pension (subject to service), in addition to a lump sum of one and a half times their salary.


The IAA calls on IMPACT to settle this dispute for no additional payments and inform the public that it will accept and publish the Labour Court recommendation in full.

This is what the other side of the dispute (IAA) has to say. Sounds like this is less about safety and staff shortages than about money.

Zzippy

rickymooney@mac wrote: »

....
This is what the other side of the dispute (IAA) has to say. Sounds like this is less about safety and staff shortages than about money.

Ah, come on now, you don't believe everything you read in a press release do you? This is just one side putting out their spin on things. There are two sides to every story. Having read posts from ATCOs here I'm sure its got a lot to do with staffing shortages as well as money.
Still hope sense prevails at the Labour Court and the strike is called off, I stand to miss the holiday of a lifetime if it goes ahead :mad:

Rickym

Zzippy wrote: »

Ah, come on now, you don't believe everything you read in a press release do you? This is just one side putting out their spin on things. There are two sides to every story. Having read posts from ATCOs here I'm sure its got a lot to do with staffing shortages as well as money.
Still hope sense prevails at the Labour Court and the strike is called off, I stand to miss the holiday of a lifetime if it goes ahead :mad:

Exactly. There is 2 sides to every story and so far the posts have only shown the views of 1 side in this dispute.

fatherdougalmag

Finger on the pulse there Flutterin

kraggy

MrVostro wrote: »

Glad to hear it.



So problem solved? Or is it really about money after all.

Ah, no. Problem not solved. Those students would only replace the retirees. There is a shortage now with the pending retirements still working.

So 36 will not be enough and they have been recruited too late.

cp251

cp251 wrote: »

It's brinkmanship and the usual Irish trade union negotiating stance. Aer Lingus do it all the time. Only occasionally do management call their bluff and let the strike go ahead. I've seen it all before after 14 years working in Irish aviation industry. I can't tell you how many times I was on strike notice. But I never actually went on strike. Other times I was on notice for layoffs. It never happens.

There will be a last minute delay, labour court intervention or Bertie. Gawd it's so predictable! It's a high stakes game.

All it does is wreck the heads of passengers who believe they are serious. No wonder so many new companies and multinationals avoid unions like the plague. Who has time and patience for these games?

ATC have a good case, but the system in the public service in this country always ensures we are subject to this kind of childish brinkmanship. Why can't people just sit down and negotiate seriously?

Told ya! It's always the same. Unions or management pull the pin on the hand grenade and shout 'I'm gonna do it'. But they rarely do.

For ATCO. I'm not against your case or your methods. You have no choice but to play this silly game. To be honest, management take the lions share of the blame.

But one day someone will drop the hand grenade and BOOM:eek:

kraggy

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Obviously a lot of hotheads around that particular profession,a quality I would have thought would not be an asset.

When did I say this dispute was about money????

Based on my posts ,please inform the Boards subscribers why you think I haven't a clue??

Regretfully this thread is degenerating into a slagging match,not by my wishes ,but by people who,in my opinion,think because they work in the profession,or are in closely associated work,rubbish the opinion of anyone else they perceive not to be in that coterie...

Please explain,in less emotive language why you feel my views are contrary yo yours.

For every bodies benefit I will paraphrase my opinions.

1.. Current situation is not sustainable and impinges unfairly on the workforce.

2.. Both parties need to AGREE a system which will end the current situation to the satisfaction of all!!

Thats no different to what my line has been all through this thread.

Flutterin. If you reread my post, you will see it wasn't directed at you.

FlutterinBantam

Sorry, must have been a bit bottled... apologies:o

qnhhpa

Nothing has changed. Labour court made recommendations on overtime scheme. This is part of a package that includes more staff recruitment, maximum working hours on rosters and guarantees on access to leave for controllers. However the IAA is not willing to honour these points - the ones that the controllers are demanding.

This is not about money it is about staff.

Controllers are not willing to do overtime on their days off until this is settled by the IAA.

Expect more spin and lies from the IAA and their RIAAnair friends in the media if more delays occur in the future.

ian_m

So where does that leave us now? Are there going to be further delays? Are the controllers reviewing the recommendations or have they been dismissed?

qnhhpa

If there is a staff shortage there may well be delays.

The IAA are reviewing the recommendations - they still have not presented them to the controllers.

Dismiss us if you want, but in case you've been had by the IAA spin - there is a shortage of controllers - dismissing us will hardly solve the problem.

ian_m

qnhhpa wrote: »

If there is a staff shortage there may well be delays.

The IAA are reviewing the recommendations - they still have not presented them to the controllers.

Dismiss us if you want, but in case you've been had by the IAA spin - there is a shortage of controllers - dismissing us will hardly solve the problem.

I was referring to the recommendation's, not the controllers.

qnhhpa

Ok - sorry to be smart.

The Labour Court only made recommendations about an official overtime scheme. They said they were not qualified to determine staffing although they did recognise there was a need for more.

So nothing has been dismissed as a complete package has not been put forward by the IAA. As ever they do nothing and hope it will all go away. Running to the Labour Court is their usual tatic and this time the Labour Court didn't tell them all the answers.