Irish Open Discussion - originally: "Irish Poker Championship Starts on TV Tonight"

dannydiamond

Dammit i was planning on drinking 299.75s' worth of coffee and gettin a new mousemat

hotspur

I'm ambivalent about the rigging TV tables thing. It's obviously negative for the players involved in the featured tables (which are few), positive for the viewers on TV (I will turn off a table of local randomers), and positive for the sponsor with greater media coverage and interest in the TV broadcast.

If I were PaddyPower I would rig the tables, it makes good marketing sense. This is a plc and the Irish Open is a marketing tool for them, their fundamental goal is not to please the players, if they can and it is congruent with their marketing goal then great, if not then the marketing goal has primacy.

We have to accept that on some matters the players and sponsor / organiser have different goals. Then it becomes a matter of power. Players playing in the IO have no power. In the WSOP the pro players have formed a committee to negotiate the rules to redress the lack of player power.

Only in particularly egregious ethical violations would PP feel compelled to succumb to the players protestations because it might be bad publicity and affect future participation, but this issue ain't big or bad enough. Nikki pwns you. That's the nature of power. So good Paddy took it as his name.

OT but for some reason this reminds me of a fantastic article by the neo-con Robert Kagan a few years ago about power, if you wanna understand the American neo-con view of global political power and consequent policy:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/kagan-20020520.htm

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

carrigeen

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sensible post Hotspur. Meh, I shall be voting with my feet.

Lloyd

you seriously wont be playing the IO because there might be a few names at the tv table? Seriously with your recent results I would suggest maybe not being so principled and get in and play Id have no doubt you could sell a % here if you didnt want to cough up the entry fee

5starpool

Hawk Eye wrote: »

It not a coincidence that Nicky Power was next in, yer man Donal (scum IMO) just had a look quick glance round a few tables and picked out Nicky cause he's known around the circuit.

I have only seen this now. Banned for a few days. Please try to be more constructive in future when you post.

thechamp87

5starpool wrote: »

I have only seen this now. Banned for a few days. Please try to be more constructive in future when you post.

in fairness he retracted his statement almost immediately...

5starpool

Well I'll withdraw the ban soon then, tomorrow or some such time.

/mod hat off

As for the rest of this thread, there is the same stuff being posted as regards tv tables that we all know. Sponsors, organisers etc, don't care what we think, and mostly we don't like it.

Personally I think TV poker is rubbish anyhow on several levels, especially the 15 hands in an hour coverage that we see in these 'highlights' shows, so apart from tempting the occasional players into playing slightly more, it is not going to affect the poker scene around ireland in any tangible beneficial way imo.

The fact that you might have a clean, white or any colour even, polo shirt on and not be allowed to be on the feature table at the IO because of it stinks I think. If I am playing this year (unlkely it looks) I won't mind that this might rule me out, as it is a disadvantage playing there with less players and slower hands etc. However, when the FT comes and players are told what to wear that is ridiculous. If Andy Black was told to put on a PPP generic shirt instead of his old faded Eminem tshirt I would be amazed, but because someone else is an unknown it is a different rule, the same a the whole cap thing last year although Dan Harrington was of course exempt.

dannydiamond

I'd love to see someone try and take Doyles hat.
Odds on him to be on the tv table,100000-1 on?

Ste05

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

Everyone here. This of course does not include the 100K+ viewers and the broadcasters of the event.

This is such a terrible statement for so many reasons as outlined above. It appears the IO and IPC have Zero integrity.

Not even ESPN or the WSOP (which I thought was about as commercialised and TV based as was possible) go this far for TV, so as to damage the integrity of the entire tournament.

I hope you understood Lloyd's explanation for why the hand picking players is bad and not only unfair but completely ruins the randomness of the tournament, and puts certain players at a disadvantage and it means these events are not working on a completely level playing field for all players.

PPP make millions on the back off this tournament and on the backs and money of the players who play in it.

If you want to start comparing yourself with Golf or other similar sports (even though those analogies are completely wrong) maybe you should start paying the players the same way those Golfers are paid.

At the PGA, do you think Tiger Woods and all the players puts up the Prize Pool from their own pockets and then let all the Television companies and sponsors make millions off their back??

hotspur wrote: »

Only in particularly egregious ethical violations would PP feel compelled to succumb to the players protestations because it might be bad publicity and affect future participation, but this issue ain't big or bad enough. Nikki pwns you. That's the nature of power. So good Paddy took it as his name.

This sums it up nicely, but the attitude shown here is absolutely disgraceful IMO. Do you realise you are effectively spitting in the face of the people who make you all the money you make from this tournament. (And pay a bloody reg. fee so you don't even have to stump up the price of a cup of Coffee or the meals the players eat.

If you add €1m to the prize pool or put up the Prize Pool and invite the named players you want and run cheap qualifiers and freeroll tournaments for the plebs, then you can do whatever the fcuk you want with the players and structure.

But as Hotspur says unless you could get negative publicity from the situation nothing will happen because to your 100k+ viewers they won't understand what you are doing. But the players who make you all this money do, and if they weren't mostly degenerate gamblers they wouldn't put up with it.

BTW all your terms and conditions can be easily met without hand picking players. I see one of them you say is only 3 shirts from the one sponsor can be at the table. So if Full Tilt have 5 players, ask a representative of them which 3 players they want to advertise for them and then give the other 2, a plain black shirt or if they have it, they can wear their own clothes. This would take about 30 seconds and wouldn't delay anything.

TL;DR - another rant from me.... :rolleyes:

Ste05

dannydiamond wrote: »

Odds on him NOT to be on the tv table at all times,100000-1 on?

A slightly more probable FYP.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

If you are playing at the €3,000,000 Guaranteed Irish Open this year, While you are enjoying your free unlimited supply of teas coffees, merchandise, entertainment, meals etc you could conclude that this is another form of added money for the players or you could not.

In this case I feel we would have to agree to differ. Lets not fall out about it.

In fairness if i'm playing the Irish Open I would have payed 300 in reg, plus possibly some exorbitant rake in the cash games. And you can hardly claim credit for the 3m prize pool.

edit: is the tea and coffee really going to be "free", I thought last year we had to pay 3x the normal price of everything?

Ollieboy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Pat,

I don't play professionally; I don't derive the majority of my income from tournament poker; I'm not getting a sponsorship deal anytime soon; and there are plenty of better structured / better run / better value events going on in this country this year. As such, I don't have to play this event.

And if it's just a big branding event for a company that I have no business with - and they even admit that they aren't going to run it 100% above board - then **** it, I'm not playing.

value = dead money in event. As such this event as about 1/3 dead moeny in it, so its great value. If your view was correct, there would be no professional players at this event, but nearly every professional player in Europe will be there.

I agree in relation to structure and will say nothing about the running of the event, as I agree with most people's views on that subject, but poker is also a business, so I think people need to take that into realisation. If we dont advertise the game on telly, we dont get the much need to fish.

If any player is used on the TV table, they should get the reg fee back as fee at least.

So Lloyd, what I'm trying to say, is you should play.

phantom_lord

Ollieboy wrote: »

So Lloyd, what I'm trying to say, is you should play.

+1

DeVore

dinjo99 wrote: »

I agree of course that it should be random. However calling anyone scum should not be tolerated on a public forum.

Am I correct Mods?

Very much correct. If Hawkeye hadnt publically apologised by the time i read this, I would have banned him.

As it is I'm issuing a warning, and everyone should take note as Hawkeye just used everyone's one and only...

Donal and I have had our arguments, he may rub people the wrong way but I do respect his TD-ing ability and no one should be called such names in public.

Apologies but I was being operated on today so I was unconscious for most of the day and the theatre didnt have wifi either, tsk tsk....

DeV.

Ollieboy

DeVore wrote: »

Very much correct. If Hawkeye hadnt publically apologised by the time i read this, I would have banned him.

As it is I'm issuing a warning, and everyone should take note as Hawkeye just used everyone's one and only...

Donal and I have had our arguments, he may rub people the wrong way but I do respect his TD-ing ability and no one should be called such names in public.

Apologies but I was being operated on today so I was unconscious for most of the day and the theatre didnt have wifi either, tsk tsk....

DeV.

You let a operation stop you from been on the net, I dont believe it. You must be ill....lol

DeVore

only for a while Ollie...



I think everyone knows my opinion on the involvment of TV in poker tournaments reasonably well.

Rigging the TV table is so wrong it hurts. Its just wrong wrong wrong. Even ESPN don't do it in the WSOP, they pick the best table from those that the random seating throws up. And God knows they are the worlds greatest ****s.

I'd refuse to go to the TV table in the IO (if chosen to ) for two reasons.:

1. Its rigged and I don't see why I should have to sit on a table of well known (and consequently generally excellent) poker players.

2. The speed of hands is about 1/2 of that of a normal table. (at the PP 6 Nations, Dave Colclough nearly went bananas when he was short stacked and the TV table got 17 hands in one hour.)

Its stunning that a company like PPP would openly admit that they rig this to benefit themselves and their TV promotional program.

If you are asked to move, simply politely refuse.


Finally the rule about not allowing poloshirts is nuts. The vast majority of poker shirts are poloshirts. PPP are going to give out alternatives..... will they be PPP branded?

DeV.

Fatboydim

Get well soon Tom.

On the whole I agree with most posters here. I'm no longer associated with PPP but I still think that we have to be realistic about what the IO means to PPP.

PPP is a business as such it needs to advertise. The IO is part of this, and fair play to them but they have really upped the profile of the Irish Open. Even though PPP cannot recruit players from the Americas a simple fact of the poker economy is that most of the top notch players are from that continent. As a result any time players like Dan Harrington or Doyle Brunson bother to leave American soil to play a tournament it is worthy of note. So how do you get these players over? Well guarantee a prizepool and TV coverage. But a 100 thousand viewers on RTE is neither here nor there. What counts is international sales. You won't sell the IO to many countries if the tables aren't interesting. The IPC even less. So the practice of creative randomization is understandable if morally unacceptable. But there is a trade off.

As for how it affects most of the players here... Surely it gives you an edge. Because unless you are drawn on a CRT [Creatively Randomized Table] you are seeing good players on the CRT at a disadvantage. I'm happy to not be on the TV table and happy that Andy Black might knock out Dan Harrington - or whatever.

Also as many of the posters on here do not play on PPP you're not exactly the people they are trying to keep happy.

And if you are going to play the IO at least you know what the score is.

Regarding the WSOP the main reason they can operate with a little more leeway is because of the size of their viewing audience. IE: Americans are going to be happy watching fellow Americans playing.

So to sum up I think the trade off is this... allow the TV people some leeway so that PPP can grow the IO into the premier tournament outside of the WSOP. Or play it 100% fair and see the IO become a parochial affair that o one outside of Dublin and Cork cares about?

I suspect there is a middle way.

Ste05

Here's a good question that would be very interesting to know the answer to, but for obvious reasons we'll never know for definite. But do you think Doyle Brunson is coming over to play and pay into the IO because he thinks it's a fun tournament?

**puts on conspiracy theory hat **

No he wouldn't. Why would he bother? I would think he is either getting paid into the tournament or has worked out some sort of image rights deal and the likes. Why would a man of his age come over to play in this tournament just to help PPP build their profile in the US and increase the profile of the IO??

**removes conspiracy theory hat**

BIG-SLICK-POKER

PPP-Pit Boss wrote: »

12. Players must be appropriately dressed at all times within the main arena and will not be permitted to play if dressed in a manner deemed distracting to other players. The tournament director & Paddy Power Poker reserve the right to refuse participation of any players that does not abide by this rule.

There is one I didnt list before, we were approached by a thrd party asking us permission to enter a certain player dressed in nothing other than body paint.. No doubt some would love it but It COULD be a little off-putting.

And as for skanky etc, say you had a T-shirt with something particularly derogatory on it. We have two choices, give you one of our sleek black numbers which we keep in reserve for the feature table, or not put you on the feature table.

1. Is Elvis allowed in then ?

2. Bet u wont make Andy Black change him mank Eminen TShrt ?

3. I disagree with any Aid being made to any table in a Buy in of this amount , Dont think PP should state it wheter they do it or not , In my opinion i would have said its just random and left it at that.

White Knight

Ste05 wrote: »

Why would a man of his age come over to play in this tournament just to help PPP build their profile in the US

PP have never accepted american players/customers to their site

BIG-SLICK-POKER

DeVore wrote: »

Apologies but I was being operated on today so I was unconscious for most of the day and the theatre didnt have wifi either, tsk tsk....

DeV.

The New Dev after op:D

nicnicnic

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

1. Is Elvis allowed in then ?

2. Bet u wont make Andy Black change him mank Eminen TShrt ? I can Guarantee u that much LOL

3. I disagree with any Aid being made to any table in a Buy in of this amount , Dont think PP should state it wheter they do it or not , In my opinion i would have said its just random and left it at that.

no joy with the floor job then i see

DeVore

lol..... bold

DeV.

strewelpeter

DeVore wrote: »

... If you are asked to move, simply politely refuse

according to the rules:

By partaking in this event you consent that you will willingly partake in this feature table if requested.
This is where the skanky t shirt will come into play :rolleyes:

Ste05 wrote: »

...But do you think Doyle Brunson is coming over to play and pay into the IO because he thinks it's a fun tournament?

as if!

BIG-SLICK-POKER

nicnicnic wrote: »

no joy with the floor job then i see

Lol . I could also reply Nicky but i wont ... As per usual Sarcasm .. Why would they change the Team they have ?? It works fine

phantom_lord

i took it for granted that he was paid in at the very least?

nicnicnic

phantom_lord wrote: »

i took it for granted that he was paid in at the very least?

and the rest I'd imagine, 1st class flights and acc at the very least

Ste05

White Knight wrote: »

PP have never accepted american players/customers to their site

Understood and good point, then maybe it's the TV company marketing the tournament for US viewers. (hence the no ".com" shirts allowed) All I'm saying is Doyle Brunson isn't coming over and paying €4,500 or whatever it is for the good of his health and to make money for someone else, he's not dumb and knows the value of his playing in the tournament.

DeVore

I would love to see PPP expel a player simply because (s)he refused to go onto the televised table. Thats simply never going to happen.

It would be the fastest way to turn a million euro spend on a publicity event into a PR disaster alienating a lot of the market along the way.

What do you think they will do:

1. Quietly find another person to take the place (since its not like they are sticklers for rules if this is the way they are going to select the TV table!)

or

2. Cause a huge scene by forcing someone onto the TV table, possibly partially disrobing them on the way.

or

3. Expel the player for non-compliance with their rigging of the TV table.


Do me a favour...

DeV.

DeVore

As for Doyle, who cares who pays his 4,500 so long as someone puts it in the pot. Thats a bit of a red herring. PPP can invite and pay for anyone they wish as far as I'm concerned, its their money.

DeV.

Blip

Guarantee €2.5 million and spend the other half mil on cameras for every table.....progression through the tourny remains random and
TV gets recorded action from all named Pros, Celebs, Big stack luckboxes and Hot totty, alls required is some clever editing.

Note to LLoyd, you must be still under the weather! this tourney is mega+EV

mdwexford

Yeah spend 500k of the players entry fees on poxy cameras, that'll really go down well, lol.

Also the replies of PPP Pit Boss are astouding imo.

Blip

mdwexford wrote: »

Yeah spend 500k of the players entry fees on poxy cameras, that'll really go down well, lol.

Also the replies of PPP Pit Boss are astouding imo.

I know what you mean, but there wont be any overlay at this event.

max_power

Interesting thread developing here. PP are really going to have to sort out the tv table selection policy at the risk of alienating some of the more prominent and influential figures in Irish Poker. How hard is it to just select the most interesting table around an mic them up or whatever? Make it the same handed, nine or ten, as the rest of the tourney. Again how hard can that be? Make the set a bit bigger? Difficult? On the clothing front, poker players like to be comfortable, especially if your going to be sitting there for a long session. I can't imagine ever wearing a shirt in such a situation and don't see how or why I should be forced to. Boycott the tv table i say, everyone turn up in their dirtiest smelliest football jersey, covered in .com sponsorship.

mewso

This whole poker on tv malarky is a chicken and egg thing really. I don't think it has been re-thought in a long time. So when PPP sell the show on they are selling it on to people who believe in the same crappy formula.

Oh and I am available to appear if PPP would like to put up my buy-in. I'll sort out accomodation myself. I come in various flavours. I can be the quiet meek amateur who is in awe of the big names or the loud mouth dickwad with an Humberto Brenes shaped card protector and so on. I have a classic Irish name and I drink the black stuff. I mean come on.

hotspur

Ste05 wrote: »

But do you think Doyle Brunson is coming over to play and pay into the IO because he thinks it's a fun tournament?

Either-
1)He heard about the rake at the cash games and said he would have to see it to believe it!

2)"Free tea???? Book me a flight son!"

3)He's coming to promote his own online room in Europe, didn't he come over for the WSOPE recently for that too? Also I think the IO has a fond place in Doyle's heart for the fun he had years ago at it when Terry Rogers brought him and other top Americans over for it.

And just when I was thinking that Lloyd might be worth a little flutter in the event.
Compromise: deck self out head to toe in Paddy Power clothing, make featured table, then rant constantly during every interesting hand in colourful language about lousy immigrants and how hanging is too good for them.

Jesus Wept

I have déjà vu, most of this was covered in a thread in the run up to the event last year.

Seeing as the TV table is rigged not entirely randomly selected [/diplomatic], why the feck wasn't The Chief on the TV table last year?
Now that would of been top telly.

1. Get Phil Helmuth over.
2. Make sure The Chief plays the event.
3. Put them both on the TV table.
4.

Fatboydim

Rigger that is genius lol.

Max - Making a TV table ten handed is difficult not because of the cameras but because of the feed. It's significantly more expensive. Quite frankly outside of a TV studio location it's too expensive. ESPN can do it because they are ESPN.

There may also be issues regarding the type of cameras used. I would not be surprised if the fish eye cameras used by American shows such as WPT and WSOP are under some kind of patent. Which is why we get the glass sheet approach. Karl H might be able to answer that for us.

Personally I hope I'm there to worry about it.

FungiWalsh

Fatboydim wrote: »

I would not be surprised if the fish eye cameras used by American shows such as WPT and WSOP are under some kind of patent. Which is why we get the glass sheet approach. Karl H might be able to answer that for us.

Unlikely, as the EPT use those cameras for their broadcasts.

max_power

Fatboydim wrote: »

Rigger that is genius lol.

Max - Making a TV table ten handed is difficult not because of the cameras but because of the feed. It's significantly more expensive. Quite frankly outside of a TV studio location it's too expensive. ESPN can do it because they are ESPN.

I realise it may be more expensive but i reckon PP have a few euro lying around somewhere that would ensure the exposure they want - and are getting practically for free - and keep the players happy.

Van Dice

hotspur wrote: »

Either-
1)He heard about the rake at the cash games and said he would have to see it to believe it!

2)"Free tea???? Book me a flight son!"

3)He's coming to promote his own online room in Europe, didn't he come over for the WSOPE recently for that too? Also I think the IO has a fond place in Doyle's heart for the fun he had years ago at it when Terry Rogers brought him and other top Americans over for it.

And just when I was thinking that Lloyd might be worth a little flutter in the event.
Compromise: deck self out head to toe in Paddy Power clothing, make featured table, then rant constantly during every interesting hand in colourful language about lousy immigrants and how hanging is too good for them.

loool

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

dannydiamond

lol at the thought of Doyle Brunson paying into a tournament,the last time he did this was probably his 2nd bracelet attempt,and rightfully so,he's probably a large part of the reason many of us are playing today....

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Bump for bad publicity purposes obv.

lol. bump because the Irish Open is a great event and Paddy Power should be thanked for its support and publicity of Irish Open and all little insignificant facts should be overlooked to see the "bigger picture" imo.

cooker3

hotspur wrote: »

2)"Free tea???? Book me a flight son!"

Just got a genuine lol from me

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I beg to differ on what facts are "insignificant". Maybe your opinion on the whole thing would have been somewhat different if you were on the tv table last year. imo.

I'd be amazed if Joe is being genuine with the above (or indeed any) post. Don't feed the troll, and Joe, stop trolling!!!!

nicnicnic

ah the boy who cried wolfe,

I think its just the starting table that is hand picked after this the table change intermittently with lets say interesting looking table chosen from the floor