Miracles...

kelly1

eoin5 wrote: »

Of course healing cosmic rays is complete rubbish but it IS more likely than a dead monk going around healing cancer. I'm just trying to show how silly it seems. So you say being blessed by a relic had some influence on the matter? Thats like me saying it was the person brushing their teeth in the morning or them picking their nose that cured them.

It's not the material object that cures anyone. From what I can gather, prayer combined with the use of a relic seems to be far more effective than prayer alone. I don't know why this is but at the end of the day I believe it is God who performs the miracle either after direct petition or through the intercession of a saint.

Ekancone

kelly1 wrote: »

It's not the material object that cures anyone. From what I can gather, prayer combined with the use of a relic seems to be far more effective than prayer alone. I don't know why this is but at the end of the day I believe it is God who performs the miracle either after direct petition or through the intercession of a saint.

So when someone is cured and it cant be explained, it was God. When a doctor cures the patient, it was God who gave us the doctor, so God did it. When the patient dies, its because God wanted him to die.

Yawn, it is such an unfulfilling explanation. So lazy, arrogant and ignorant.

Why are we here?

God.

How does life work?

God.

How does the universe work?

The way God made it.

What happens when i die?

God.

Is there any other way of looking at it?

No, because God will send you to hell where you will burn for eternity. But remember, he loves you. :rolleyes:

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

What are the chances of cosmic rays changing millions of bad cells into good ones and not changing good cells into bad ones at the same time that someone was being blessed with a relic? Zilch, wouldn't you say?

What is the chances of the existence of a super powerful being that can manipulate space and time while existing outside of the universe but who likes to cure, apparently at random, the cell mutations of certain primates on a small back water planet in an ordinary, if a little cold, area of an small insignificant spiral galaxy?

eoin5's point is that is you want to start making up explanations as to what is happening, any supernatural explanation is as reasonable as any other one.

My vote is for Midi-chlorian (ie The Force)

CerebralCortex

Wicknight wrote: »

My vote is for Midi-chlorian (ie The Force)

Its got my vote too.

eoin5

kelly1 wrote: »

It's not the material object that cures anyone. From what I can gather, prayer combined with the use of a relic seems to be far more effective than prayer alone. I don't know why this is but at the end of the day I believe it is God who performs the miracle either after direct petition or through the intercession of a saint.

So what your saying is you think the relic has something to do with it as it amplifies the power of prayer? You dont think that maybe some people made up and pushed the whole relic thing as a way of selling them, something akin to selling indulgences?

Ekancone

Atheist Sees Image of Big Bang in Piece of Toast

For Immediate Release: Miracle Toast?

(ACPA-london) Excitement is growing in the Northern England town of Huddlesfield following the news that a local man saw an image of the big-bang in a piece of toast. atheist donald chapman, 36, told local newspaper, "the huddlesfield express" that he was sitting down to eat breakfast when an unusual toast pattern caught his eye.

"i was just about to spread the butter when I noticed a fairly typical small hole in the bread surrounded by a burnt black ring. however the direction and splatter patterns of the crumbs as well as the changing shades emanating outwards from this black hole were very clearly similar to the chaotic-dynamic non-linear patterns that one would expect following the big bang". "it's the beginning of the world" he added excitedly. images of the actual big bang toast are copywrighted by don chapman so we can only show this image which is a us govt public domain picture

Ever since news of the discovery made national headlines, local hoteliers have been overwhelmed by an influx of atheists from all over the country who have flocked to Huddlesfield to catch a glimpse of the scientific relic. "i have always been an Atheist and to see my life choices validated on a piece of toast is truly astounding" said one guest at the Huddlesfield arms hotel.

To the surprise of many, the UK national atheist association has asked its members not to pay attention to the story despite its potential to inspire less faith. "Given what the religious believe already, this is an easy sell" said one disgruntled activist who said he was going to huddlesfield anyway noting that "seeing is not believing".
http://www.satireandcomment.com/0208toast.html

Dades

daithi - that would normally be shifted to the "religious humour" thread... but it's strangely fitting here.

May it lighten the mood!

kelly1

eoin5 wrote: »

So what your saying is you think the relic has something to do with it as it amplifies the power of prayer? You dont think that maybe some people made up and pushed the whole relic thing as a way of selling them, something akin to selling indulgences?

The selling of relics is wrong IMO but as I discovered recently healing through relics is actually biblical.

JohnnyBravo

I particularly like this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle

The reason i like it is that they were only ever only been able to reproduce it on 2 days

I remember seeing it on RTE years ago, So it should be on You Tube somewhere

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Define "instant cure".

Instant as in instant. I wasn't referring to Andy's strory. As I said a priest told me on Monday that he was cured instantly at a charismatic prayer meeting. You know the way the Charismatics are a bit over the top in their zeal and the seem to focus mostly on the holy spirit. Anyway, the pastor or whatever he was asked everyone to put their hands in the air and because the people there were guests and were new to this type of thing, everyone was reluctant to put their hands up (I would be). So the pastor asked them again and this priest was the first to put his hands up but he said he was cured of a condition in his neck/spine instantly. He had been going to the hsopital regularly but the docs weren't making much progress.

robindch wrote: »

1. Why did you interpret "within a few months" as meaning "instant"?

I don't, I wasn't referring to Andy's story but to the cases I've read about where there was an instant cure. More often it's over-night.

robindch wrote: »

Bearing in mind that you attach life-and-death importance to the precise meaning of a language you do not understand, it seems peculiar to me that you make what seem basic comprehension errors in a language you do understand.

Your assumption was wrong.

robindch wrote: »

2. Why did you not comment to the much more reliable and properly-documented prayer study which collated the results of not one person, but almost two thousand, but which found nothing?

It's not an easy one to respond to. I don't know the circumstances. All I'd say is that God doesn't like to be put to the test.

daithifleming wrote: »

Denial of reality is a HUGE part of faith, don't you know?

Denial of which reality? Are you claiming to have proof that God doesn't exist?

eoin5

kelly1 wrote: »

The selling of relics is wrong IMO but as I discovered recently healing through relics is actually biblical.

Relics and charms are about money, I guess a more modern comparision in healing terms would be homeopathy.

I dont get how it being biblical makes any difference. Every man has a price, even in biblical times. I guess they decided to leave that part out.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't, I wasn't referring to Andy's story but to the cases I've read about where there was an instant cure. More often it's over-night.

Apologies, I thought you were referring to Andy's story. Still, though, I'd like to see some firm evidence. There are pretty simple ways in which instant cures can seem to happen, some of which I've seen first-hand.

kelly1 wrote: »

It's not an easy one to respond to. I don't know the circumstances. All I'd say is that God doesn't like to be put to the test.

Perhaps that's so. But we're not putting "god" per se to the test, we're putting what people say about god to the test -- you yourself have said that praying will help, but when we check it out, it seems that what you say does not match reality.

Do you see the difference here?

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

Anyway, the pastor or whatever he was asked everyone to put their hands in the air and because the people there were guests and were new to this type of thing, everyone was reluctant to put their hands up (I would be). So the pastor asked them again and this priest was the first to put his hands up but he said he was cured of a condition in his neck/spine instantly. He had been going to the hsopital regularly but the docs weren't making much progress.

So what is he going to do now? I mean after this miracle cure will he be making himself available for further scientific testing, we could have a solid proof of God on our hands here. All we need is for the doctors to go back over the results of their examinations before the miracle, analyse his current neck/spine condition, if there is no obvious solution at first then consult with other specialist in this field to discover if there was no possible earthly way of this occuring, then we may just have proof of some god.

Then when the scientists hold their hands up and throw hundreds of years of elegant theories about the physical, chemical and biological workings of the Universe and mankind out the window, all the Christians will have to do is the hard work of proving it was their god who did it and not Deus Sol Invictus or Wotan (or perhaps the pastor who led the prayer meeting is in fact our true God, I mean it seems to me like he was instrumental in the cure, who is this miracle worker?). So I do assume this priest is eager to play his, perhaps vital, part in revealing to the world once and for all that some divine being exists and dabbles in physiotherapy in its spare time?

For me, not only is the idea of miracles ridiculous, it would also require an extremely warped God who would be willing to partake in them. If he wants to save someone's life and is willing to intervene then don't let them develop cancer in the first place. You would have to be sick and twisted in the mind to wait until after a person goes through months of Chemotherapy which causes them to be violently ill and weak, then wait until after they go through the trauma of being told by their doctor that they are sorry but there is nothing more that medicine can do and they will die within a matter of months, waiting until after they have to sit their spouse and children down and tell them that "Mummy isn't going to be around for much longer but she is going to a lovely place in the clouds", then one day God says, "Ta-Da, had you fooled, you don't have cancer anymore. Now get down on your knees and thank me and praise me for my goodness." To me that requires a sick, twisted diety who has no respect for his creation, we are all just toys for him to amuse himself with, as and when he wishes (so perhaps Yahweh is the most likely candidate after all).

I'm sorry if I appear a bit curt but the idea of miracles winds me up. I have seen first hand people praying for God to intervene in sicknesses and the disappointment and pain they experience when he doesn't. Any God who offers hope to desperate people (who he claims to love), waves it front of their faces, and then denies it to them is not a God of love as Christians claim. It is evil, and I don't say that lightly.

eoin5

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I'm sorry if I appear a bit curt but the idea of miracles winds me up. I have seen first hand people praying for God to intervene in sicknesses and the disappointment and pain they experience when he doesn't. Any God who offers hope to desperate people (who he claims to love), waves it front of their faces, and then denies it to them is not a God of love as Christians claim. It is evil, and I don't say that lightly.

And after that you get the priest who explains it all by saying "... and the lord works in mysterious ways!". Talk about a kick in the teeth to someone who is left behind.

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

So what is he going to do now? I mean after this miracle cure will he be making himself available for further scientific testing.

This happened a couple of years ago and at the time he felt too embarassed to talk about it! Some priest!

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

we could have a solid proof of God on our hands here. All we need is for the doctors to go back over the results of their examinations before the miracle, analyse his current neck/spine condition, if there is no obvious solution at first then consult with other specialist in this field to discover if there was no possible earthly way of this occuring, then we may just have proof of some god.

No proof at all to most here. Some will say the initial tests were false positives while others will say that it just can't be explained yet or it's a freak occurence of tiny probability.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

For me, not only is the idea of miracles ridiculous, it would also require an extremely warped God who would be willing to partake in them. If he wants to save someone's life and is willing to intervene then don't let them develop cancer in the first place. You would have to be sick and twisted in the mind to wait until after a person goes through months of Chemotherapy which causes them to be violently ill and weak, then wait until after they go through the trauma of being told by their doctor that they are sorry but there is nothing more that medicine can do and they will die within a matter of months, waiting until after they have to sit their spouse and children down and tell them that "Mummy isn't going to be around for much longer but she is going to a lovely place in the clouds", then one day God says, "Ta-Da, had you fooled, you don't have cancer anymore. Now get down on your knees and thank me and praise me for my goodness." To me that requires a sick, twisted diety who has no respect for his creation, we are all just toys for him to amuse himself with, as and when he wishes (so perhaps Yahweh is the most likely candidate after all).

Honestly this warped view of God really annoys me. Can anyone be certain that God created cancer or that it's His fault??

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I'm sorry if I appear a bit curt but the idea of miracles winds me up. I have seen first hand people praying for God to intervene in sicknesses and the disappointment and pain they experience when he doesn't. Any God who offers hope to desperate people (who he claims to love), waves it front of their faces, and then denies it to them is not a God of love as Christians claim. It is evil, and I don't say that lightly.

Nobody can see the big picture, we're not God! God know's what best for all of us and that includes suffering for our own ultimate good. I'm not getting drawn any further into this particular debate.

kelly1

kelly1 wrote:

Honestly this warped view of God really annoys me. Can anyone be certain that God created cancer or that it's His fault??

The same one who created the universe and easily had the power to prevent cancer arising?
Sounds like a yes...

kelly1

bluewolf wrote: »

The same one who created the universe and easily had the power to prevent cancer arising?
Sounds like a yes...

This will sound strange I'm sure, but if getting rid of cancer brought us closer to God, He would have done just that.

I read something very striking the other day in a book by St. Catherine of Siena. She said that if there were no suffering in this world, we would probably forget about God completely. Why would anyone turn to God if we lived in an earthly utopia? Worth thinking about!

Suffering tends to bring God to mind and bring about spiritual growth if the suffering is approached in the way God intended.

eoin5

kelly1 wrote: »

This will sound strange I'm sure, but if getting rid of cancer brought us closer to God, He would have done just that.

I read something very striking the other day in a book by St. Catherine of Siena. She said that if there were no suffering in this world, we would probably forget about God completely. Why would anyone turn to God if we lived in an earthly utopia? Worth thinking about!

Suffering tends to bring God to mind and bring about spiritual growth if the suffering is approached in the way God intended.

God sounds sadistic as ever

kelly1 wrote: »

Nobody can see the big picture, we're not God! God know's what best for all of us and that includes suffering for our own ultimate good.

Would you not admit that its just blind faith? Theres nothing wrong with admitting that like...

humanji

That's a bit of a cop out, though, isn't it? I mean, does making us hate god for causing such pain and suffering bring us closer to god? Of course it doesn't. It creates resentment. If a benevolent god saw that there was strife, appeared and sorted it all out, then he'd get a hell of a lot more followers that he does by letting everyone suffer.

I just can't unnderstant how someone who has suffered constantly would think, "Thank God for all this. It makes me love him more".

kelly1

kelly1 wrote: »

This will sound strange I'm sure, but if getting rid of cancer brought us closer to God, He would have done just that.

I read something very striking the other day in a book by St. Catherine of Siena. She said that if there were no suffering in this world, we would probably forget about God completely. Why would anyone turn to God if we lived in an earthly utopia? Worth thinking about!

Suffering tends to bring God to mind and bring about spiritual growth if the suffering is approached in the way God intended.

I must make sure to punch my family a few times to bring us closer together...

Suffering only brings a god to mind because you need something. If god just wants the ego boost of feeling needed I'm sure there are better ways to arrange it. Really, now you're just making your god sound sadistic.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

This will sound strange I'm sure, but if getting rid of cancer brought us closer to God, He would have done just that.

I read something very striking the other day in a book by St. Catherine of Siena. She said that if there were no suffering in this world, we would probably forget about God completely. Why would anyone turn to God if we lived in an earthly utopia? Worth thinking about!

Suffering tends to bring God to mind and bring about spiritual growth if the suffering is approached in the way God intended.

Oh! We've come full circle again.

eoin5

I prefer my Gods take on things. She even gives us some good advice while shes at it.

From the Principia Discordia:

A SERMON ON ETHICS AND LOVE
One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES?

"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"

WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON'T SOUND WELL.

"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?

"But nobody Wants it! Everybody hates it."

OH. WELL, THEN STOP.

At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Instant as in instant. I wasn't referring to Andy's strory.
...
he said he was cured of a condition in his neck/spine instantly. He had been going to the hsopital regularly but the docs weren't making much progress.

Ok, but we have shifted from instant cure of cancer or a tumour, to instant cure of a sore neck. Needless to say that is a little less spectacular.

To impress you need to present something that people would truly have a very hard time explaining. There could be a hundred non-supernatural reasons why this priests back felt better after going to this man.

It has been suggested (though certainly not with rigorous support mind) that a lot of these cases are probably psychosomatic to begin with which could explain instant cures to pain and discomfort.

Some studies have suggested that deeply religious people (more likely privately religious than publicly religious) are more likely to suffer from psychosomatic diseases, which would suggest a link between psychosomatic symptoms and religion induced stress.

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

.
Honestly this warped view of God really annoys me. Can anyone be certain that God created cancer or that it's His fault??

You certainly can say God created cancer. Lets look at his track record:

- During his week of creation he made the angels, he must have been in a rush because he didn't do a good enough job and some of them rebelled against him, therefore God is the true root of all evil in the Universe.
- He created the Garden of Eden but he messed up by firstly creating a tree of knowledge that he didn't want anyone to eat from and secondly leaving the tree within easy reach of Adam and Eve (I personally would have put it on some obscure moon in the far side of the Andromeda Galaxy inside a cage of impenetrable metal - but thats just me).
- He then created the animals, including the serpent. He proceeds to mess up BIG TIME by giving the serpent the power of speech and fluency in the same language as Adam and Eve spoke.
- He made humans flawed and had to drown most of them when he realised they weren't doing what he wanted.
- He gave humans one book to save them, however he didn't do his research properly so most of the world haven't read it and so don't believe in him.

If he was in the construction industry (which he kind of is) he would be tarred as a cowboy builder. Messing up when creating the human genome so that cancers can develop does not look out place in this list of shoddy projects.

Schuhart

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

If he was in the construction industry (which he kind of is) he would be tarred as a cowboy builder. Messing up when creating the human genome so that cancers can develop does not look out place in this list of shoddy projects.

Of course, at least one Catholic was willing to speculate that God just fundementally doesn't give a toss.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

Honestly this warped view of God really annoys me. Can anyone be certain that God created cancer or that it's His fault??

No one else is supposed to have the ability to create something like cancer in the first place. Who else would have?

kelly1 wrote: »

This will sound strange I'm sure, but if getting rid of cancer brought us closer to God, He would have done just that.

Yes, its funny how God always seems to choose, for what ever reason, to act in a way that is exactly the same as if he didn't exist.

kelly1 wrote: »

I read something very striking the other day in a book by St. Catherine of Siena. She said that if there were no suffering in this world, we would probably forget about God completely. Why would anyone turn to God if we lived in an earthly utopia?

Why would we need to turn to God if we lived in an Earthly utopia?

Surely God ideally wants us not to have to turn to him, in the same way a parent hopes their children don't ever come to them in trouble needing their help?

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote:

Surely God ideally wants us not to have to turn to him

But then god wouldnt get to feel important!

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

I read something very striking the other day in a book by St. Catherine of Siena. She said that if there were no suffering in this world, we would probably forget about God completely. Why would anyone turn to God if we lived in an earthly utopia? Worth thinking about!

Correct me if I am wrong, but was God's original plan not exactly that? Did he not create an Earthly Utopia for us where there was no suffering? Why create Eden if deep down he didn't want us to be there?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Lads forget Padre Pio, Lourdes is where the magic's at.

Swimming around in people's piss and sweat is one sure way to kick start the immune system.

stereoroid

Sean_K wrote: »

Swimming around in people's piss and sweat is one sure way to kick start the immune system.

Oh, don't get me started... you're ill, so your way of looking for a cure is to get on a charter plane full of sick people, to fly to the 2nd-tackiest tourist trap on the planet after Las Vegas. Then you go and get yourself worked up in to religious mania, and the serotonin and adrenaline make you feel a bit better... hallelujah (sp?), you're cured! So, you get back on the plane with the infectious... :rolleyes: