Miracles...

Ekancone

kelly1 wrote: »

Denial of which reality? Are you claiming to have proof that God doesn't exist?

Absolute proof? No, anyone who claims to have that is a liar. I am going on evidence. God either wrote or directed the writing of the Bible. Pretty much everything the bible (or any other holy book) suggests about the natural world has been shown to be wrong (five elements, anyone?). That to me would say that it was written by man, men who had no understanding of the natural world and NOT an all-knowing God.

Absolute proof that God doesn't exist? No. But it would suggest that every God man has invented doesn't exist, i am quite confident of that.

seamus

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but was God's original plan not exactly that? Did he not create an Earthly Utopia for us where there was no suffering? Why create Eden if deep down he didn't want us to be there?

Perhaps there's something to this "sadist" God theory.

The evidence:
a) People suffer
b) People continue to suffer even when they pray to him
c) He seemingly chooses people at random to miraculously "cure" without any regard whatsoever for circumstance
d) He created a place where no-one suffers and no-one ages, but he doesn't let anyone live there.

Maybe Satan was right all along and God *is* evil.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

No one else is supposed to have the ability to create something like cancer in the first place. Who else would have?

It could have been God or evolution. I don't know.

Wicknight wrote: »

Why would we need to turn to God if we lived in an Earthly utopia?

Because God has far greater plans for us than life on planet earth. He wants to share His life with us and He can do that if we live like He doesn't exist.

Wicknight wrote: »

Surely God ideally wants us not to have to turn to him, in the same way a parent hopes their children don't ever come to them in trouble needing their help?

No, we are designed in such a way that we need God. We need God's grace in order to be good and holy and produce "good fruit". John 15 explains it well:

1 I [Jesus] am the true vine; and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. 10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. 12 This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but was God's original plan not exactly that? Did he not create an Earthly Utopia for us where there was no suffering? Why create Eden if deep down he didn't want us to be there?

So God gave us a good start which is only fair. Adam messed up by sinning and forfeited his ticket to Heaven. It was not part of God's plan that Adam would sin but God already had a remedy for the situation planned before the beginning of creation.

stereoroid wrote: »

Oh, don't get me started... you're ill, so your way of looking for a cure is to get on a charter plane full of sick people, to fly to the 2nd-tackiest tourist trap on the planet after Las Vegas. Then you go and get yourself worked up in to religious mania, and the serotonin and adrenaline make you feel a bit better... hallelujah (sp?), you're cured! So, you get back on the plane with the infectious... :rolleyes:

Have you ever been to Lourdes? If you were, did you not go into the grounds of the basilica and down to the grotto? You won't find any cheap plastic tat inside the gates.

daithifleming wrote: »

Absolute proof? No, anyone who claims to have that is a liar. I am going on evidence. God either wrote or directed the writing of the Bible. Pretty much everything the bible (or any other holy book) suggests about the natural world has been shown to be wrong (five elements, anyone?). That to me would say that it was written by man, men who had no understanding of the natural world and NOT an all-knowing God.

You must know by now that the bible is not a science or history book. It's about spiritual truths.

daithifleming wrote: »

Absolute proof that God doesn't exist? No. But it would suggest that every God man has invented doesn't exist, i am quite confident of that.

I agree that man has invented many gods but I'm quite confident that there is one and only one true God.

seamus wrote: »

Perhaps there's something to this "sadist" God theory.

The evidence:
a) People suffer
b) People continue to suffer even when they pray to him
c) He seemingly chooses people at random to miraculously "cure" without any regard whatsoever for circumstance
d) He created a place where no-one suffers and no-one ages, but he doesn't let anyone live there.

Maybe Satan was right all along and God *is* evil.

Or maybe you just don't understand God and you have the wrong end of the stick?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

It could have been God or evolution. I don't know.

Well if it was evolution (not 100% sure what you mean by that), it was still God

kelly1 wrote: »

Because God has far greater plans for us than life on planet earth.

Yes but that is explained as being because life on earth sucks. If life didn't suck there wouldn't be any need for "far greater plans"

kelly1 wrote: »

He wants to share His life with us and He can do that if we live like He doesn't exist.

Again, yes, but we wouldn't need to "share His life" if we already lived in a utopia.

kelly1 wrote: »

No, we are designed in such a way that we need God.

Why? Why would God do that? Bit selfish wasn't it, to design us so that we need him and that without him we suffer? That doesn't sound like a loving god to me

kelly1 wrote: »

So God gave us a good start which is only fair.

Well you just said God created us so that we needed him. He did that knowing what Adam would do? That sucks.

It's like sending your children out into the cold without a coat knowing they will be cold, so that they will get half way down the road before they, freezing, call you and say "Please come and pick me up!" just so you, as a parent, can feel needed.

Wouldn't it have been better to create us so we didn't need him, and therefore what Adam did wouldn't be that big a deal? Why does God need to feel need by us, and why would he create us so that we needed him?

Ekancone

kelly1 wrote: »

You must know by now that the bible is not a science or history book. It's about spiritual truths.

There are many Christians who would disagree with you. The fact that you all have your own subjective interpretation of what the bible is/says makes me find your belief system all the more ridiculous.

kelly1 wrote: »

I agree that man has invented many gods but I'm quite confident that there is one and only one true God.

Well you and I are atheists of most of the Gods humanity has ever believed in. I just go one God further.

In fact, here is a handy list of these Gods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZVRpqm0Cl0

CerebralCortex

Wicknight wrote: »

....Wouldn't it have been better to create us so we didn't need him, and therefore what Adam did wouldn't be that big a deal? Why does God need to feel need by us, and why would he create us so that we needed him?

Are you honestly expecting Kelly1 to be able to answer that with a convincing logical answer? I'm certainly not.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Why? Why would God do that? Bit selfish wasn't it, to design us so that we need him and that without him we suffer? That doesn't sound like a loving god to me.

I don't think you have any idea what God has in store for those who love Him. As the bible says it's beyond comprehension. God gave us the gift of life with the plan in mind that we would spend an eternity in blissful union with Him. He doesn't want us going off on our own getting lost and hurt, so to speak.

Wicknight wrote: »

Well you just said God created us so that we needed him. He did that knowing what Adam would do? That sucks.

I'm not getting into a free-will debate AGAIN.

Wicknight wrote: »

It's like sending your children out into the cold without a coat knowing they will be cold, so that they will get half way down the road before they, freezing, call you and say "Please come and pick me up!" just so you, as a parent, can feel needed.

Of course you see it that way, you have a very warped view of God. The way I see it, God sends us out with a coat and tells us not to take it off. Like silly children we think we know better and take it off and get a cold. And God says I told you so! Now put your coat back on.

kelly1

daithifleming wrote: »

There are many Christians who would disagree with you. The fact that you all have your own subjective interpretation of what the bible is/says makes me find your belief system all the more ridiculous.

Which is why God gave us a Church to teach and guide us. God never intended the bible to be our only guide. It's too open to false interpretation.

fatmammycat

"I don't think you have any idea what God has in store for those who love Him. As the bible says it's beyond comprehension."
How convenient.
Honestly what a load of old tosh. Man made dieties, man written book, rules altered every couple of years, no evidence and mumbo jumbo posing as fact. I don't know how people here have the patience to be so good humoured with your nonsense Noel.

Ekancone

kelly1 wrote: »

Which is why God gave us a Church to teach and guide us. God never intended the bible to be our only guide. It's too open to false interpretation.

Again, MANY Christians would disagree. Yet they would also call their belief absolute truth.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't think you have any idea what God has in store for those who love Him. As the bible says it's beyond comprehension. God gave us the gift of life with the plan in mind that we would spend an eternity in blissful union with Him. He doesn't want us going off on our own getting lost and hurt, so to speak.

I'm not getting into a free-will debate AGAIN.

Of course you see it that way, you have a very warped view of God. The way I see it, God sends us out with a coat and tells us not to take it off. Like silly children we think we know better and take it off and get a cold. And God says I told you so! Now put your coat back on.

I was right.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't think you have any idea what God has in store for those who love Him.

What it is is rather irrelevant. The issue is why did he create us to need him?

What ever it is we only need it in the first place because God created us to need it. Why would he do that?

kelly1 wrote: »

He doesn't want us going off on our own getting lost and hurt, so to speak.

So why did he make it so that going off on our own means we can end up getting lost and hurt?

See you are using rather assumptive logic. God doesn't want us getting hurt, so you say he doesn't want us wandering off on our own. But it was actually his decision in the first place that wondering off on our own could lead to us getting hurt. So why didn't he just make it that wondering off on our own wouldn't lead to us getting hurt.

Again it is like the mother not giving the child a warm coat and then saying "Don't go out in the cold in your T-shirt, you will catch your death" You might go, isn't it nice that the mother cares about her child that she tries to stop him catching cold. But look a little deeper and you might also wonder why the mother isn't giving the child the coat that would keep them warm in the first place.

You are saying God is great because he doesn't want us wondering off and getting hurt, without asking the deeper question of why would wondering off lead to us getting hurt in the first place.

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not getting into a free-will debate AGAIN.

Well luckily for you it has nothing to do with free will

It is to do with God's decisions. Knowing Adam's choice why did God create us so that we would really suffer from Adam's choice.

Its like a mother knowing her son is going out in the cold so she hides his coat, home that he will get sick and have to come back in again.

kelly1 wrote: »

Of course you see it that way, you have a very warped view of God.

Yes, well I am an atheist.

kelly1 wrote: »

The way I see it, God sends us out with a coat and tells us not to take it off.

But he doesn't though, that is the point. The coat BTW in this analogy is the ability to be happy and free without God.

We need God. He doesn't send us out with a coat, he sends us out without a coat so we have to come back to him, because being out in the cold sucks if you don't have a coat.

As you say being without God sucks.

The question is why were we created so that being without God sucks? Why were we not given the coat so that it is cold and we have to return to God where it is warm?

Why would God, if he loves us, create it so that being without him is so bad?

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Wicknight wrote:

....Wouldn't it have been better to create us so we didn't need him, and therefore what Adam did wouldn't be that big a deal? Why does God need to feel need by us, and why would he create us so that we needed him?

Are you honestly expecting Kelly1 to be able to answer that with a convincing logical answer? I'm certainly not.

Try contributing to the debate instead of taking potshots.

I think I've already answered Wicknights question. We were created to live with God, not apart from God. I'm quite happy to be dependent on God because I believe it makes for a closer relationship. God of course doesn't depend on us. He gives freely and neither takes nor needs anything. God doesn't want us to live without Him, we're not mini-gods.

But for the sake of argument, imagine that we were created to be independent of God. You would have a finite, closed system. Now I'm no philospher but intuitively I would say that any closed system that includes imperfection would be unable to solve it's own problems. This is what is happening in the world today. If we were perfect in the sense that we were incapable of evil, we would still have the problem of finite intelligence, finite wisdom etc. To have have infinite intelligence and wisdom would mean that we were equal with God.

Man has a God-given yearning for the infinite because and is keenly aware of his own finiteness. He will never be happy with any kind of limit which this world imposes. Man always want to go faster, climb higher, create better music and art, experience greater pleasure. We always want more and God is that more that we seek and God will always satify every need we have because He is infinite. God designed us to love Him above His creation. Creation is there for us to enjoy but creation was made for us, not us for creation. We were made for God, i.e. to go up, not down.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Try contributing to the debate instead of taking potshots.

Well no offense Kelly but you are equally dismissive when most of the time your answer is simply that we don't understand God, yet you some how do.

kelly1 wrote: »

I think I've already answered Wicknights question. We were created to live with God, not apart from God.

You haven't actually, since my question is why were we created to live with God not apart from God. The answer that this is because God doesn't want us getting hurt is a non-answer, because we only get hurt by being apart from God because God set things up like that in the first place.

kelly1 wrote: »

God doesn't want us to live without Him, we're not mini-gods.

Interesting point, why aren't we mini-gods? Why were we not created to be mini-gods? That would take care of the "ending up hurt" issue.

kelly1 wrote: »

But for the sake of argument, imagine that we were created to be independent of God. You would have a finite, closed system. Now I'm no philospher but intuitively I would say that any closed system that includes imperfection would be unable to solve it's own problems.

Only if you include "problems" in the first place. Why would you do that?

kelly1 wrote: »

To have have infinite intelligence and wisdom would mean that we were equal with God.

And that would be bad because ... ?

kelly1 wrote: »

Man always want to go faster, climb higher, create better music and art, experience greater pleasure.

And we were created that way because .... ?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

kelly1 wrote: »

You would have a finite, closed system. Now I'm no philospher but intuitively I would say that any closed system that includes imperfection would be unable to solve it's own problems.

Well bacteria, which as organisms go, are somewhat less complex than us humans have done quite well in solving their own imperfections, becoming more and more resilient, to whatever is thrown at them. Evolution.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Try contributing to the debate instead of taking potshots.

I think I've already answered Wicknights question. We were created to live with God, not apart from God. I'm quite happy to be dependent on God because I believe it makes for a closer relationship. God of course doesn't depend on us. He gives freely and neither takes nor needs anything. God doesn't want us to live without Him, we're not mini-gods.

But for the sake of argument, imagine that we were created to be independent of God. You would have a finite, closed system. Now I'm no philospher but intuitively I would say that any closed system that includes imperfection would be unable to solve it's own problems. This is what is happening in the world today. If we were perfect in the sense that we were incapable of evil, we would still have the problem of finite intelligence, finite wisdom etc. To have have infinite intelligence and wisdom would mean that we were equal with God.

Man has a God-given yearning for the infinite because and is keenly aware of his own finiteness. He will never be happy with any kind of limit which this world imposes. Man always want to go faster, climb higher, create better music and art, experience greater pleasure. We always want more and God is that more that we seek and God will always satify every need we have because He is infinite. God designed us to love Him above His creation. Creation is there for us to enjoy but creation was made for us, not us for creation. We were made for God, i.e. to go up, not down.

Instead of spouting steam about what you believe to be true try to answer the questions asked with answers outside of you framework of belief. Then I'd be interested to hear what you have to say, when you are a little bit more critical. I'd be really interested to hear what your answers are to Wick's most recent questions minus what the doctrine of your beloved Catholic Church has told you.

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

Man has a God-given yearning for the infinite because and is keenly aware of his own finiteness. He will never be happy with any kind of limit which this world imposes. Man always want to go faster, climb higher, create better music and art, experience greater pleasure. We always want more and God is that more that we seek and God will always satify every need we have because He is infinite.

Sorry, it was Lucifer (I assume that is who the serpent represents) who gave us the yearning for the infinite and our desire to constantly advance humanity. God wanted us wandering around naked eating lettuce all day and climbing trees like mindless buffoons. God got p1ssed off with us for wanting to develop our potential so he threw a tantrum and punished us.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Well no offense Kelly but you are equally dismissive when most of the time your answer is simply that we don't understand God, yet you some how do.

I'm only telling you what I believe but you don't believe anything I say. Your mind is closed IMO.

Wicknight wrote: »

You haven't actually, since my question is why were we created to live with God not apart from God.

Keep in mind please that I'm not discussing something tangible here so you have an advantage over me. To attempt to answer your question, I believe that God want us to live with him rather than apart from him for our own ultimate happiness. It's a bit like a perfect marriage. God doesn't want to keep us at arms length and look down upon us and treat us like laboratory rats. He created us to live in union with Him. What greater gift could there be?

Wicknight wrote: »

Interesting point, why aren't we mini-gods? Why were we not created to be mini-gods? That would take care of the "ending up hurt" issue.

Not sure but I think a mini-god would be have to be finite or else he/she would be equal to God. Being finite we'd still look for more and therefore wouldn't ever be fully content.

Wicknight wrote: »

Only if you include "problems"[imperfection] in the first place. Why would you do that?

Perfection would imply godliness wouldn't it? God wants us to be perfect through His grace and not independently of Him. Think of the Holy Trinity. The three persons aren't independent of each other, they're not entirely separate persons/beings. The Son proceeds from the Father and Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. So there is a profound union between all three. God wants a similar kind of union between us and Him. We will be "deified" because we will be totally filled with God's grace. That's not to say we will become divine. It's fairly obvious to me that the closer the relationship we have with God the happier we will be. How could separateness make us any happier? God is the source of all happiness.

Sorry if this answer isn't good enough for you. It's about the best I can do.

Wicknight wrote: »

And that would be bad because ... ?

I'm not sure but I just can't see a situation with multiple gods working. Would it be wise of God to create an equally powerful being. Would that even be possible? I don't know.

Wicknight wrote: »

And we were created that way because .... ?

So we would seek God. If we were capable of being satisfied with finite things, we would never look for God. Is anybody in this world perfectly satisfied with material things or with other people for that matter? Is there any roller coaster in the world that leaves someone totally satisfied never wanting to look for the next biggest ride? Is there any boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband who never lets us down? How many drug addicts are contented? God is the only being capable of totally satisfying our every desire. That's just the way we're made and I'm happy to be that way.

Of course none of this is scientifically provable etc, it's what I believe.

If you were to assume for a moment that God does exist, does any of this make sense to you?

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Instead of spouting steam about what you believe to be true try to answer the questions asked with answers outside of you framework of belief. Then I'd be interested to hear what you have to say, when you are a little bit more critical. I'd be really interested to hear what your answers are to Wick's most recent questions minus what the doctrine of your beloved Catholic Church has told you.

Seriously, how can I possibly answer questions about God in scientific terms, outside a framework of belief. I would first have to provide evidence that God exists and work from there. If I could do that, we wouldn't be having these debates would we?

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Sorry, it was Lucifer (I assume that is who the serpent represents) who gave us the yearning for the infinite and our desire to constantly advance humanity. God wanted us wandering around naked eating lettuce all day and climbing trees like mindless buffoons. God got p1ssed off with us for wanting to develop our potential so he threw a tantrum and punished us.

It was God who gave us the desire for the the highest good. Satan lured Adam with a false promise which ended in man's first fall from grace. Satan is only interested in the destruction of our souls. What good did the devil ever do for us?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

[IRONY]

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm only telling you what I believe but you don't believe anything I say. Your mind is closed IMO.

[/IRONY]

kelly1 wrote: »

He created us to live in union with Him. What greater gift could there be?

I'd settle for a ferarri

kelly1 wrote: »

Perfection would imply godliness wouldn't it? God wants us to be perfect through His grace and not independently of Him. Think of the Holy Trinity. The three persons aren't independent of each other, they're not entirely separate persons/beings. The Son proceeds from the Father and Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. So there is a profound union between all three. God wants a similar kind of union between us and Him. We will be "deified" because we will be totally filled with God's grace. That's not to say we will become divine. It's fairly obvious to me that the closer the relationship we have with God the happier we will be. How could separateness make us any happier? God is the source of all happiness.

I can't argue with that. I'm a man of worldly pleasures, but different strokes for different folks.

kelly1 wrote: »

So we would seek God. If we were capable of being satisfied with finite things, we would never look for God. Is anybody in this world perfectly satisfied with material things or with other people for that matter? Is there any roller coaster in the world that leaves someone totally satisfied never wanting to look for the next biggest ride? Is there any boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband who never lets us down? How many drug addicts are contented? God is the only being capable of totally satisfying our every desire. That's just the way we're made and I'm happy to be that way.

Not at any stage during the time in my life when I was religious were all of my desires contented.

Funny you should mention drug addicts however. You give a smack-head an endless clean supply of medical-grade heroin, and he'll be completely content to live a long life shooting up several times a day. He'll be happy. You could say he'll never experience love, or emotion, but he wont give a damn. He's happy, and he will fight to defend his supply.

It brings to mind that Karl Marx quote, that "Religion is the opium of the people".

Maybe opium is the way to true happiness and contentment and satisfaction of desires? In fact, on opium one would have no desires, apart from more opium. Do you see any parallels here?

kelly1 wrote: »

If you were to assume for a moment that God does exist, does any of this make sense to you?

To an extent it makes sense why people believe in god, they're looking for happiness. IMO, they're looking in the wrong place, but who am I to guide them.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

It was God who gave us the desire for the the highest good.

Er, the Bible would suggest otherwise, since pretty much the first thing Adam did was disobey God.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm only telling you what I believe but you don't believe anything I say. Your mind is closed IMO.

Believing you has nothing to do with it. Why would I believe you, you are not able to speak with authority that any of this is actually true, since you aren't God. You can simply say you believe it is true, which is rather meaningless statement. It is demonstrating that it is logical and makes sense that is the important bit, and the bit you are having trouble with.

kelly1 wrote: »

To attempt to answer your question, I believe that God want us to live with him rather than apart from him for our own ultimate happiness.

Yes, I get that. The question is why did God make us in the first place so that our own individual happiness depended on being with him? Or to put it another way, why create us so that we suffer if we aren't with him?

kelly1 wrote: »

What greater gift could there be?

Well creating us so we don't need to do that, for a start.

kelly1 wrote: »

Not sure but I think a mini-god would be have to be finite or else he/she would be equal to God.

Why would being equal to God be bad?

kelly1 wrote: »

Being finite we'd still look for more and therefore wouldn't ever be fully content.

Well for a start you can be happy or free from suffering without being fully content. Not being content is often a good thing, it drives people.

Secondly, why would being finite mean we would look for more? We only look for more because of the way we are built. If we weren't built that way we wouldn't.

kelly1 wrote: »

Perfection would imply godliness wouldn't it? God wants us to be perfect through His grace and not independently of Him.

Why?

kelly1 wrote: »

It's fairly obvious to me that the closer the relationship we have with God the happier we will be. How could separateness make us any happier?

Well pretty easily, God just has to make it that way. Unless you are saying he can't.

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not sure but I just can't see a situation with multiple gods working. Would it be wise of God to create an equally powerful being.

Why not?

kelly1 wrote: »

So we would seek God. If we were capable of being satisfied with finite things, we would never look for God. Is anybody in this world perfectly satisfied with material things or with other people for that matter?

I would imagine lots of people, but again that isn't the point. God could have built us so that everyone was satisfied with Earthly things. So why didn't he?

kelly1 wrote: »

God is the only being capable of totally satisfying our every desire. That's just the way we're made and I'm happy to be that way.

But why are we made like that?

kelly1 wrote: »

If you were to assume for a moment that God does exist, does any of this make sense to you?

No, because assuming God exists it is either a dumb or a selfish way to make us.

But again all this, to me, is simply trying to find excuses for why an all loving God would leave us in this state that we are in, when the most obvious answer is that he simple doesn't exist.

If it is a choice between a simple answer (he isn't real) and a convoluted answer (he is real but has this complicated topsy turvey reason for why the world looks like he isn't real) I will take the simple answer over the complicated answer.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Seriously, how can I possibly answer questions about God in scientific terms, outside a framework of belief. I would first have to provide evidence that God exists and work from there. If I could do that, we wouldn't be having these debates would we?

He is not asking you for scientific terms, he is simply asking for proper answers ("I don't know" is a proper answer by the way), rather than answers along the lines of because it says so in the Bible, or because I choose to believe that, both of which are meaningless in trying to discuss topics like this seriously, because neither you nor the Bible have automatic authority.

Schuhart

kelly1 wrote: »

What good did the devil ever do for us?

I suppose he proved that free will could actually be exercised, and we could ignore the divine intention.

Sorry, was that supposed to be rhetorical?

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

It was God who gave us the desire for the the highest good. Satan lured Adam with a false promise which ended in man's first fall from grace. Satan is only interested in the destruction of our souls. What good did the devil ever do for us?

I don't think Satan gave a false promise, he told the truth and it was God who was decieving Adam and Eve. In the creation myth it was Lucifer who showed humans that they can take care of themselves, he gave mankind our humanity; our innovitive spirit, our self awareness, ambition to progress. Under God we were no better than pets, Lucifer gave us the spark of humanity.

By the way we probably all have Lucifer to thank for our very existence, if it wasn't for his intervention in Eden then it would still be just Adam and Eve hanging about naked in Eden.

PDN

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

By the way we probably all have Lucifer to thank for our very existence, if it wasn't for his intervention in Eden then it would still be just Adam and Eve hanging about naked in Eden.

Where on earth are you getting that idea? What connection is there between Lucifer's intervention and the birth of subsequent generations of mankind?

Pompey Magnus

PDN wrote: »

Where on earth are you getting that idea? What connection is there between Lucifer's intervention and the birth of subsequent generations of mankind?

The obvious reason is the scientific one in which outcomes are dependent on infinitely exact initial conditions, eg the Butterfly effect, which in a most definite sense would mean that without Lucifer's intervention none of us would be here today. Also it wasn't until after Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden that they started having children.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

PDN wrote: »

Where on earth are you getting that idea? What connection is there between Lucifer's intervention and the birth of subsequent generations of mankind?

If, as the poster mentioned, Lucifer had not intervened, we would never have discovered our free will, and would be god's pets. Mankind as we know it would not have existed.

PDN

Sean_K wrote: »

If, as the poster mentioned, Lucifer had not intervened, we would never have discovered our free will, and would be god's pets. Mankind as we know it would not have existed.

That is nonsense. Lucifer was not the only conceivable agent that could present Adam & Eve with a choice between good and evil.

But you haven't answered my question. Why, without Lucifer's intervention, would Adam & Eve be on their own without all their descendants? I don't see any reason why Depeche Mode should think that.