WIT University

invincibleirish · 12-05-2008 3:29pm

Bards wrote: »

20 Years ago WRTC was being upgraded to WIT by Labour, in order to remove it from the RTC category with the future intention of designating it to UCW - But the plan got scuppered by the Cork Lobby/Whinge in the new govt at the time by Michael Martin

sure it was... blame Cork, documentary evidence please? Anyhoo politics shouldnt come into it, ideally University designation would not be a Government decision. As can be seen from this whole debate, the idea of a University is cheapened when institutions are designated as such for spurious political reasons rather then genuine academic ones. I mention DIT as it is a University in all but name and is arguably more prestigious or better placed then some of the countries smaller Universities.

besides as usual this has nothing to do with the argument i am making, where is the compelling reason for WIT to be upgraded, what is so special about it that sets it aprt from other, better known more prestigious ITs?

Sully · 12-05-2008 3:44pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Yes and guess what?. DITs application was rejected, so hopefully will WITs, why? we have enough Universities.

Again i make the point if the Government were going to upgrade an IT, then DIT would be the obvious choice.

Its not just about WIT. DIT, CIT and probably a few other ITs can all legitimately ask why can they not have Uni status if WIT gets it. Waterford argues as if its a special case. It isnt.

You see, im getting a different picture now. I think the problem with the Uni Campaign is you dont like Waterford. At first, I thought it was genuine reasons. Now, I think its just another anti-Waterford stance.

We need to re-think Univeristies, not add them. If we are left with no choice, DIT and WIT are two excellent choices for upgrade. Not CIT. End of.

invincibleirish · 12-05-2008 3:47pm

Sully wrote: »

You see, im getting a different picture now. I think the problem with the Uni Campaign is you dont like Waterford. At first, I thought it was genuine reasons. Now, I think its just another anti-Waterford stance.

:rolleyes:, look i give up, maybe Waterford needs a University if this is the standard of debate i have to put up with, if you werent a mod id call you a troll.

Bduffman · 12-05-2008 3:48pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

I dont think CIT or any other University deserves University status(with the potential exception of DIT) even if 'my' education minister gives CIT uni status (which i dont think he will), you may or not have missed the point ive made in every other post on this thread where i specifically said Ireland has enough Universities to meet demand, Current Universities dont have enough fund.....no wait im wasting my time arguing this arent i?

You are missing my point I'm afraid. What is 'enough universities' exactly? It is not the number of universities in a country but the number of university places in a country. And I believe they should be more evenly spread throughout the regions - not just in 4 centres.

invincibleirish wrote: »

One more thing, GET OVER WHERE I AM FROM, I AM NOT INTERESTED IN ARGUING ABOUT CORK AND 'WHAT IT GETS'. ITS IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE, I DONT LIKE OR SUPPORT PAROCHIAL POLITICS AND ME FEINER ATTITUTES WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT A LOT OF OF THIS UNIVERSITY ARGUMENT IS ABOUT.

Its easy to say that when you already have a university isn't it? The most disgusting example of 'parochial politics' came a few years ago when Waterford RTC was upgraded to an IT. After which Cork RTC complained and only a matter of months later all RTCs were made ITs. No one won but it seemed to satisfy the cork 'me feiner' no end.
This is about getting investment in a region that needs it badly. With the erosion of manufacturing jobs we are not getting the higher tech jobs needed to replace them. And that is mainly because of the perceived lack of university graduates in this region. The last company of value to move to this region was Genzyme & that was several years ago. That during a period of high job losses.

invincibleirish · 12-05-2008 3:55pm

Bduffman wrote: »

You are missing my point I'm afraid. What is 'enough universities' exactly? It is not the number of universities in a country but the number of university places in a country. And I believe they should be more evenly spread throughout the regions - not just in 4 centres.

Its easy to say that when you already have a university isn't it? The most disgusting example of 'parochial politics' came a few years ago when Waterford RTC was upgraded to an IT. After which Cork RTC complained and only a matter of months later all RTCs were made ITs. No one won but it seemed to satisfy the cork 'me feiner' no end.
This is about getting investment in a region that needs it badly. With the erosion of manufacturing jobs we are not getting the higher tech jobs needed to replace them. And that is mainly because of the perceived lack of university graduates in this region. The last company of value to move to this region was Genzyme & that was several years ago. That during a period of high job losses.

1. This country has enough 3rd level places for the foreseeable future.

2. I believe there is a fair distribution of 3rd level places currently as it stands.

3.I dont defend CIT, as stated previously i believe institutions designations should not be a political football.

4. there are better ways to get investment then demanding a University and seeing it as the cure for all problems.

Now im off to UCC to do an exam,wish me luck!

Bduffman · 12-05-2008 4:15pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

1. This country has enough 3rd level places for the foreseeable future.

2. I believe there is a fair distribution of 3rd level places currently as it stands.

3.I dont defend CIT, as stated previously i believe institutions designations should not be a political football.

4. there are better ways to get investment then demanding a University and seeing it as the cure for all problems.

Now im off to UCC to do an exam,wish me luck!

1. Maybe it does have enough places - but for the third time - I would like to see those places more fairly distributed. A new University doesn't have to mean more places. Of course, that would mean fewer places for your beloved UCC & we'd see the parochial politics come into play then won't we?

2. 4 places in Ireland is well distributed? 2 on the west coast alone?

3. I agree - but the Waterford campaign is not a political football. We genuinely need one. But how else are we going to get one if not through politics?

4. A University is not a cure for all problems but it will go a long way. There is no better way of getting investment than education.

And good luck in your exams - even if you did mention that to rub it in a bit.

Sully · 12-05-2008 4:34pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

:rolleyes:, look i give up, maybe Waterford needs a University if this is the standard of debate i have to put up with, if you werent a mod id call you a troll.

So how am I trolling? By pointing out what I feel are flaws in your post?

Bards · 12-05-2008 5:08pm

If you had read the Port report it clearely states that WIT would not look out of place as a University in either the UK or Canada. it goes on to say that WIT has met all the criteria to be upgraded to a University, but for political reasons other things need to be taken into account, such as the Me Fein attitude of the other IT's

If politics were not brought to bear then WIT should be UCW before now

invincibleirish · 12-05-2008 8:30pm

Sully wrote: »

So how am I trolling? By pointing out what I feel are flaws in your post?

No, by insinuating that i have some sort of Vendetta against the county/city/region that is Waterford thus attempting to smear my viewpoint in a negative manner. but i suspect you only follow that course of action as you dont like my opinions. Which, as i've said already, is fair enough. Just please dont patronise me again.

invincibleirish · 12-05-2008 8:35pm

Bards wrote: »

If you had read the Port report it clearely states that WIT would not look out of place as a University in either the UK or Canada. it goes on to say that WIT has met all the criteria to be upgraded to a University, but for political reasons other things need to be taken into account, such as the Me Fein attitude of the other IT's

If politics were not brought to bear then WIT should be UCW before now

You are citing the UKs example eg the former Polytechnics which are now Universities (at least in name) as a positive example. In the UK there is a gap between the elite universities and the newer ones which do the institutions involved no favour.

Citing the UKs university policy is akin to citing their privatisation of the Railways as a good thing. It isnt!

Psychedelic · 12-05-2008 8:37pm

Dublin already has 4 universities so DIT has no urgent need to be upgraded. Cork already has a university so doesn't need Cork IT to be upgraded

Waterford has been campaigning for a university since the 50's or 60's, so this is not just some "whim" - this is a serious issue and it's actually insulting to all the people and organisations who have worked so hard to get WIT to operate at a university level, and those who have lobbied for its upgrade for so many years.

This is not just a campaign for a Waterford Univesrsity - it's for a University of the South East, to cater for the whole region, so it's not just Waterford "whinging" that it doesn't have a uni

The South East is lagging behind the rest of the country economically and this trend will continue. This is not good for Ireland as a nation. Establishing a uni here would help improve economic growth in the region, which would in turn benefit the country as a whole. It is not good for Ireland to have a region of 500,000 falling way behind the rest. So yes, Ireland does need another university, in Waterford.

Its not just about WIT. DIT, CIT and probably a few other ITs can all legitimately ask why can they not have Uni status if WIT gets it. Waterford argues as if its a special case. It isnt.

It is a special case. Waterford is the only city without a uni. The South East is the only region without a uni. DIT and CIT may be up to university standard (I'm not saying they are or not cause I don't know) but Dublin and Cork certainly don't need them to be upgraded.

mike65 · 12-05-2008 8:45pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

sure it was... blame Cork, documentary evidence please? Anyhoo politics shouldnt come into it, ideally University designation would not be a Government decision.

clicky This is where it started and pretty much where it ended too, the stated government policy collapsed like a house of cards.

And of course the madness continues

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/plans-to-upgrade-colleges-sparks-turf-war-1318436.html

invincibleirish · 12-05-2008 8:54pm

Bduffman wrote: »

1. Maybe it does have enough places - but for the third time - I would like to see those places more fairly distributed. A new University doesn't have to mean more places. Of course, that would mean fewer places for your beloved UCC & we'd see the parochial politics come into play then won't we?

2. 4 places in Ireland is well distributed? 2 on the west coast alone?

3. I agree - but the Waterford campaign is not a political football. We genuinely need one. But how else are we going to get one if not through politics?

4. A University is not a cure for all problems but it will go a long way. There is no better way of getting investment than education.

And good luck in your exams - even if you did mention that to rub it in a bit.

1.Hey if you can come up with a plan for re-allocating other universities resources to accomodate a WIT upgrade. be my guest. I would not call it parochial if each institution had to say take a hypothetical cut of 10% and got bad about it. Why should well established Departments and courses be disbanded to accomodate a whim?

2. Ever heard of the notion of Critical mass? not everywhere can have a University.

3. You think you genuinely need one. i think different, and, seeing the logic used on these threads, i can see why the upgrade of WIT is hopefully not going to happen, the excuses used aint good im afraid.

4.Im glad you typed 4, Look i think you have vested too much in the hope of Waterford getting a University, i doubt that it will be the economic engine that you hope for at least in the short term.

I think this thread highlights a bigger issue. the outdated concept of Dublin & the 5 cities 'competing' for funding is damaging to the nation. The National Spatial Strategy was highlighted earlier in this thread as an example of why Waterford should get a Uni but i have to point out that the NSS is sham document not fit for purpose, primarily as it spreads the focus too thin.

My solution would be focusing on 2/3 areas to concentrate investment (like the Buchanan report 1968). However i doubt Waterford would be one of those areas.

Bards · 12-05-2008 9:39pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

2. Ever heard of the notion of Critical mass? not everywhere can have a University..

as has been said before the S.E has the critical mass to support a university 460,000 people to be precise. higher than the mid west and west"

300,000 within commuting distance of Waterford City

5ForKeeps · 12-05-2008 10:31pm

Bards wrote: »

as has been said before the S.E has the critical mass to support a university 460,000 people to be precise. higher than the mid west and west"

300,000 within commuting distance of Waterford City

That is why the region needs it too be a University, will attract bigger companies to Waterford as well to create jobs. Waterford has a lot of potential to grow into more than just a regional city.

Amazotheamazing · 13-05-2008 12:12am

Bards wrote: »

If you had read the Port report it clearely states that WIT would not look out of place as a University in either the UK or Canada. it goes on to say that WIT has met all the criteria to be upgraded to a University, but for political reasons other things need to be taken into account, such as the Me Fein attitude of the other IT's

If politics were not brought to bear then WIT should be UCW before now

Does Ireland need another university?

It's a simple question, and yet, despite 20-something pages, no-one has shown Ireland does, but a fair few of us have shown Ireland doesn't.

KingLoser · 13-05-2008 6:36am

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Does Ireland need another university?

It's a simple question, and yet, despite 20-something pages, no-one has shown Ireland does, but a fair few of us have shown Ireland doesn't.

I think that's why there's such a status quo in this issue.

Ireland may not need another university on the whole, but that doesn't change the fact that the South-East region does. Just because the answer isn't as easy as "yes" or "no" doesn't make it any less legit.

5ForKeeps · 13-05-2008 8:44am

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Does Ireland need another university?

All of regions of Ireland, cities have Universities, Waterford is the only one not too and the South East needs it end of...

Bduffman · 13-05-2008 9:28am

invincibleirish wrote: »

1.Hey if you can come up with a plan for re-allocating other universities resources to accomodate a WIT upgrade. be my guest. I would not call it parochial if each institution had to say take a hypothetical cut of 10% and got bad about it. Why should well established Departments and courses be disbanded to accomodate a whim?

2. Ever heard of the notion of Critical mass? not everywhere can have a University.

3. You think you genuinely need one. i think different, and, seeing the logic used on these threads, i can see why the upgrade of WIT is hopefully not going to happen, the excuses used aint good im afraid.

4.Im glad you typed 4, Look i think you have vested too much in the hope of Waterford getting a University, i doubt that it will be the economic engine that you hope for at least in the short term.

I think this thread highlights a bigger issue. the outdated concept of Dublin & the 5 cities 'competing' for funding is damaging to the nation. The National Spatial Strategy was highlighted earlier in this thread as an example of why Waterford should get a Uni but i have to point out that the NSS is sham document not fit for purpose, primarily as it spreads the focus too thin.

My solution would be focusing on 2/3 areas to concentrate investment (like the Buchanan report 1968). However i doubt Waterford would be one of those areas.

1. I think someone else already pulled you on calling this issue a 'whim'

2. We aren't asking for a University everywhere - only Waterford

3. So sustainable job creation isn't a good reason?

4. I disagree

I believe only the cities that already have Universities are the ones that look at this issue as 'competing'. Obviously there is a big worry about the 'downgrading' of existing Universities. But thats a good complaint compared to not having a University at all. Just try looking at it from our point of view.

Have you ever seen the Sunday Times list of top secondary schools in the country? Waterford schools barely make it into the top 400 - 500. Looks bad. Until you look at their criteria. It is based on how many graduates go on to University - (ITs not included). And surprise surprise, less Waterford students go to university than those from Dublin, Cork, Limerick & Galway - hence the low scores for Waterford schools.
So if you 'concentrate investment in 2/3 areas' as you suggest (which has been the policy for decades now), you end up with a grossly over populated capital city struggling to cater for over a quarter of the population of the country. This is a policy that obviously does not work.

5ForKeeps · 13-05-2008 9:33am

Bduffman wrote: »

1. I think someone else already pulled you on calling this issue a 'whim'

2. We aren't asking for a University everywhere - only Waterford

3. So sustainable job creation isn't a good reason?

4. I disagree

I believe only the cities that already have Universities are the ones that look at this issue as 'competing'. Obviously there is a big worry about the 'downgrading' of existing Universities. But thats a good complaint compared to not having a University at all. Just try looking at it from our point of view.

Have you ever seen the Sunday Times list of top secondary schools in the country? Waterford schools barely make it into the top 400 - 500. Looks bad. Until you look at their criteria. It is based on how many graduates go on to University - (ITs not included). And surprise surprise, less Waterford students go to university than those from Dublin, Cork, Limerick & Galway - hence the low scores for Waterford schools.
So if you 'concentrate investment in 2/3 areas' as you suggest (which has been the policy for decades now), you end up with a grossly over populated capital city struggling to cater for over a quarter of the population of the country. This is a policy that obviously does not work.

Great post, some of the mentioned above is relevant as to way the country is in such a state. Dublin for a capital city is like a squaller. Waterford needs this to help generate good things for not only Waterford City & County but the whole South East region....

Amazotheamazing · 13-05-2008 12:45pm

5ForKeeps wrote: »

All of regions of Ireland, cities have Universities, Waterford is the only one not too and the South East needs it end of...

Sigh, does Ireland need another university?

KingLoser · 13-05-2008 12:47pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Sigh, does Ireland need another university?

Already answered you on that above.

invincibleirish · 13-05-2008 1:17pm

Bduffman wrote: »

1. I think someone else already pulled you on calling this issue a 'whim'

2. We aren't asking for a University everywhere - only Waterford

3. So sustainable job creation isn't a good reason?

4. I disagree

I believe only the cities that already have Universities are the ones that look at this issue as 'competing'. Obviously there is a big worry about the 'downgrading' of existing Universities. But thats a good complaint compared to not having a University at all. Just try looking at it from our point of view..

Yes i am looking at it from your point of view, you mention 'sustainable job creation' and 'downgrading' of existing universities in the same breath, so you are proposing closing other University departments to fund an WIT upgrade. Thats not sustainable thats taking other areas established jobs.

(im aware of the long term benefits of Universities, but it takes years for those links ot be built up. In the short term the only job creation will be building & staffing a New University. You are asking the Irish Taxpayer to fund A University AND diminish the capacity and potential of our current Universities).

Bduffman wrote: »

Have you ever seen the Sunday Times list of top secondary schools in the country? Waterford schools barely make it into the top 400 - 500. Looks bad. Until you look at their criteria. It is based on how many graduates go on to University - (ITs not included). And surprise surprise, less Waterford students go to university than those from Dublin, Cork, Limerick & Galway - hence the low scores for Waterford schools.

So what? Thats just flawed criteria selection for a gimmicky article in a Murdoch owned newspaper list, dont read too much into it, not every school is a Clongowes or Gonzaga. who cares if less Waterford students go to University? there are several well established ITs in the SE which do a good job. I doubt there is anyone in Waterford who cannot go to University just because there is not a Uni in immediate proximity. Its not a right to have a University on your doorstep. *edit* of course as there is a smaller population, then of course less people are going to go. That and the very goo IT Waterford already has. 10k student population no?

Bduffman wrote: »

So if you 'concentrate investment in 2/3 areas' as you suggest (which has been the policy for decades now), you end up with a grossly over populated capital city struggling to cater for over a quarter of the population of the country. This is a policy that obviously does not work.

No this statement is wholly inaccurate. There has been no planned investment in strategic areas. My suggestion is to focus spending on 2/3 areas outside of Dublin to concentrate investment in order to create a counterweight to Dublin. Waterford would not be one of those areas.

Psychedelic · 13-05-2008 1:18pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Does Ireland need another university?

It's a simple question, and yet, despite 20-something pages, no-one has shown Ireland does, but a fair few of us have shown Ireland doesn't.

you didn't see my post then last night so:

The South East is lagging behind the rest of the country economically and this trend will continue. This is not good for Ireland as a nation. Establishing a uni here would help improve economic growth in the region, which would in turn benefit the country as a whole. It is not good for Ireland to have a region of 500,000 falling way behind the rest. So yes, Ireland does need another university, in Waterford.

fricatus · 13-05-2008 1:19pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Sigh, does Ireland need another university?

Given the plethora of CSO reports that say our population is heading for five million by 2030 or whenever (there seems to be one saying the same thing released every six months), then I would say yes!

And arguments like "the existing universities can expand to create those places" are invalid in a regional-development context due to the imbalances that exist. The fact that there are four universities in the Dublin area and three outside is proof enough of this. Keeping the present number and distribution of universities will only increase the absolute dominance that Dublin enjoys in this regard.

And I know that this is only one report (which has been criticised), but it's worth looking at, purely for its discussion value:
http://www.dit.ie/DIT/built/futuresacademy/twice-the-size/

These guys reckon that the main population concentration in Ireland will be along a corridor from Belfast to Waterford (page 7). If that particular future scenario is to come true, then the idea of not having a university in the south-east becomes indefensible (at least more indefensible than it is under current circumstances!)

In my own humble opinion, WIT should be upgraded now, and a long-term commitment made at the same time to siting a university also in the north-west, once a suitable centre is identified (the implication being that Sligo IT might fit the bill - Sligo makes sense because it's a good way from Galway, and Letterkenny is too close to Derry).

invincibleirish · 13-05-2008 1:25pm

Bards wrote: »

300,000 within commuting distance of Waterford City

Nonsense statistic. How long is the Commute? are the resources in place to facilitate such a commute. how many of those 300k are potential University students?

Look it might look well saying that the SE has 400k. it looks impressive but the reality is that Waterford has 50k. thats essentially a big town. If i could throw the cat amongst the pigeons then why cant Kilkenny city have a University? all your logic equally applies to them too. Or Carlow.

Psychedelic · 13-05-2008 1:31pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

(im aware of the long term benefits of Universities, but it takes years for those links ot be built up. In the short term the only job creation will be building & staffing a New University. You are asking the Irish Taxpayer to fund A University AND diminish the capacity and potential of our current Universities).

so what if it takes years to build up the benefits, if we don't have a university we will never have those benefits. and in case you forgot waterford and the south east pay taxes too.

who cares if less Waterford students go to University?

waterford people care. if cork didn't have a university, would you like if the rest of the country said "who gives a **** if less cork students go to university"? you are almost saying to us "who gives a **** about waterford."

Its not a right to have a University on your doorstep.

we are not saying everyone deserves a university on their doorstep. we are just asking for what all the other cities have.

Amazotheamazing · 13-05-2008 1:32pm

Bit of an oblique argument though isn't it. Ireland as it is doesn't have enough students for it's universities, creating another one won't help that much. Like has been pointed out, Irish universities are already under-funded, creating another one won't help that either.

Honestly, ask yourself what's best for the Irish University sector and see if the same thing is best for Waterford. I don't think it is, and that's the problem WIT hasn't been able to answer.

invincibleirish · 13-05-2008 1:38pm

fricatus wrote: »

Given the plethora of CSO reports that say our population is heading for five million by 2030 or whenever (there seems to be one saying the same thing released every six months), then I would say yes!.

Our future population is dependant on many factors. Attempting to justify Building A Uni now on this basis is fallacy.

fricatus wrote: »

And arguments like "the existing universities can expand to create those places" are invalid in a regional-development context due to the imbalances that exist. The fact that there are four universities in the Dublin area and three outside is proof enough of this. Keeping the present number and distribution of universities will only increase the absolute dominance that Dublin enjoys in this regard.

You are correct there has to be a correct regional balance. However it has to be carefully thought and planned out, again thats an issue thats an aside to the WIT debate.

fricatus wrote: »

And I know that this is only one report (which has been criticised), but it's worth looking at, purely for its discussion value:
http://www.dit.ie/DIT/built/futuresacademy/twice-the-size/

DIT has the most legitimate claim of any IT to be a Uni.

fricatus wrote: »

These guys reckon that the main population concentration in Ireland will be along a corridor from Belfast to Waterford (page 7). If that particular future scenario is to come true, then the idea of not having a university in the south-east becomes indefensible (at least more indefensible than it is under current circumstances!)

Hmm, i think if you analyse closer you'll realise the main population centre is essentially Belfast-Dundalk-Dublin-Wicklow.,Waterfords population growth (like the other Regions will remain rather static, most predicted population growth like you cite will occur in th GDA).

fricatus wrote: »

In my own humble opinion, WIT should be upgraded now, and a long-term commitment made at the same time to siting a university also in the north-west, once a suitable centre is identified (the implication being that Sligo IT might fit the bill - Sligo makes sense because it's a good way from Galway, and Letterkenny is too close to Derry).

Oh dear! i think you fail to grasp the notion of critical mass. Sligo is stranded out on its own! At least Letterkenny is close to Derry so that'll make it easier to go between the two. Who is going to go to Sligo University:p.

Psychedelic · 13-05-2008 1:39pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Bit of an oblique argument though isn't it. Ireland as it is doesn't have enough students for it's universities, creating another one won't help that much. Like has been pointed out, Irish universities are already under-funded, creating another one won't help that either.

Honestly, ask yourself what's best for the Irish University sector and see if the same thing is best for Waterford. I don't think it is, and that's the problem WIT hasn't been able to answer.

well to extend your logic here I could say that we should downgrade 2 or 3 existing universities as that would be best for the Irish University sector as the remaning 4 universities would have much more funding available. how about we downgrade UL, UCC and NUIG so the rest can prosper?

and as was mentioned by fricatus our population is growing and thus the number of students will grow too, so there will be a need for more places.

WIT University

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