WIT University

invincibleirish · 13-05-2008 9:45pm

Dac51 wrote: »

The DC bypass as you call it was built mainly from City Council funds with a few bob thrown in by the NRA. It is 60kph road carrying traffic from the IDA Industrial Estate to the SE of the city. More a link road then a bypass.

The N25 bypass will be tolled despite the reasonable logic that relief/bypass roads should not be tolled. Unlike the Jack Lynch tunnel which has no toll. Oh, and by the way Waterford has waited for this bypass since the late 60's. Did you know there is only one bridge crossing the river suir in Waterford? The next bridge is 10 miles away. How many bridges cross the Lee or the Shannon in Cork/Limerick?

The M9 project is badly needed as the current N9 is without a doubt the worst national primary route in the country. Don't reply and say it isn't unless you are familiar with driving this route.

The N11 is the Dublin to Wexford road. What has it got to do with Waterford?

Pathetic arguments once again.

Did we get a raw deal? You bet we did.

I suggest you read through the other thread for answers to the points you made(believe me what you just typed is easy to counter with simple knowledge) , this thread is about WIT.

merlante · 13-05-2008 11:10pm

invincibleirish's arguments are all based on the fact that he considers the campaign for a university a 'parochial' one, in the meanest, most cynical sense possible. Anyone who believes that the case for a university of the south east is founded on sounder foundations than that, please, just leave him to it. As soon as the tit for tat element of the thread dies off, he'll get bored and go away.

The case for the creation of another university in Ireland, and consequently the case for any given number of universities for Ireland being the correct number, can debated in terms such as the following:
1. What is the international experience?
2. What is the distribution of major infrastructure in other sectors, such as health?
3. What distribution is most consistent with what is already there?

We will not see an honest discussion of the issue in terms such as these from invincibleirish, or from anyone else who brandishes terms such as 'parochial', 'local issue', 'local campaign', etc., etc., like they decide the issue apriori. They only succeed in annoying people, not convincing them.

Every issue is local on some level anyway. We have a parochial Dail pushing our interests in Europe, and providing services in Dublin that could arguably be provided cheaper in London. What right have we to a financial services centre so close to the square mile?

I would suggest that people stick to rational argument, because this thread has degenerated into insults. Failing that, maybe Waterford people should just drop it -- nothing is decided based on internet discussion threads. Thank god.

Aquos76 · 13-05-2008 11:18pm

Sully wrote: »

Easy does it. No getting personal please.

How is he getting personnel, he is only saying it as it is

You haven't slagged Waterford - you belittled it. You are a disgrace to your County.

Amazotheamazing · 14-05-2008 12:21am

Freddie59 wrote: »

You're wasting your breath my friend. We're dealing with someone here who is blinkered and whose IQ is very low, to say the least. He has been pounded by the well-weighted counter-arguments on this thread, and the rubbish he's retorting with is, quite frankly, sickening. For example he accused people of 'not doing their costings properly' when considering sending a child to University. When I pointed out that I had done detailed costings, as my daughetr is about to sit her Leaving Certificate exam, he chose to ignore it.

What we have seen here is some of the most bigoted, narrow-minded, anti-Waterford rhetoric I have seen in an awful long time. Proof of tis is the comment, quote, feck the country as long as Waterford gets, unquote.

Amazingly, what Waterford is doing is a mirror image of the Cork strategy for years, and now we have a Corkonian objecting to it. Cute hoors indeed.

Sickening? Really? Massive indifference to an earthquake in China is sickening, this is merely debate.

Did you ask UL why only one university in Ireland has the course your daughter wishes to do btw? I expect you'll find it's because not every university would have enough students to running a course in each university. In a greater sense, this is the whole problem with Waterford's bid for a uni. There simply isn't enough resources, student and financial to justify another uni. There isn't enough students to fill one.

Btw, lay off the personal insults. If you can't make an argument without insulting your opponent, it's a sure sign you've lost the argument. I'm disappointed the mod's haven't pulled you for using personal insults in several of your replies.

Sully · 14-05-2008 12:55am

Ill clarify what I mean by "personal abuse". I can see why both sides of the argument are getting ratty and bitchy, but at the end of the day I dont want to see people throwing snide remarks at each other about age, IQ, being a disgrace to their country etc. It leads to further abuse that was witnessed once before where people have been strongly abused using foul language which is not on.

If you want to debate on this board, by all means do. However, the charter still stands. Back up your argument, dont start trolling to get a rise out of the opposition, dont get personal in anwyay with the poster - instead:

Attack the post and not the poster.

Today alone iv had to issue 2 infractions and 1 warning. Relax! Take a break if your starting to get annoyed, or just dont post here at all.

Thanks lads.

invincibleirish · 14-05-2008 1:47am

On that note i'll retire from this thread. My opinions, which i believe to be based on fact and reason, provoke responses completely out of order for this thread to be taken seriously, i apoligise if i offended anyone in anyway i merely sought to debate and defend my points with vigour. Its been an eye opening experience.

KingLoser · 14-05-2008 7:23am

I find it funny how posters against the formation of a University for the SE are so content with accepting the shortcomings of our government in the funding of third level education. If a department is (and I quote you naysayers) "underfunded", then it's not a good idea to stop, pause, and halt all progress in said department. That's what's happening in the Health Service, and we all know how much of a blazing success that is. By your "logic" applied in this argument, we should take a similar role in Education?

The only facts in this case, is that Waterford City (yes, City, fact. Deal with it.) is in an educational and economical black hole. A black hole that will eventually start to effect the entire country if not remedied. You make arguments about place numbers, and waiting a generation to upgrade... but this is all based on (a very silly) assumption that WIT gets upgraded and tomorrow there's 500 new places in the college!! WIT is already a very large third level institute, and I doubt very much that the upgrading will have any adverse effects on student numbers unless the demand is there. It is not about enlarging student numbers, it is about improving a service that we as a city of the Irish republic are entitled to.

Talking about the bypass and rail links proves how desperately you are trying to make this argument colonial instead of focusing on what is really the issue, the failure of the Government on the education sector in the SE. Something I think personally the naysayers have no direct knowledge about from not living here. (imho, of course)

Freddie59 · 14-05-2008 8:46am

Sully wrote: »

Easy does it. No getting personal please.

Sully - you were called a troll and dared to to ban him by the said contributor.

Freddie59 · 14-05-2008 8:48am

invincibleirish wrote: »

:rolleyes: x2, if you have nothing constructive to add may i suggest you refrain from commenting?

Hmmm. No comment on the costings again. Amazing the way you constantly sidestep that one.:rolleyes:

Bduffman · 14-05-2008 9:49am

KingLoser wrote: »

I find it funny how posters against the formation of a University for the SE are so content with accepting the shortcomings of our government in the funding of third level education. If a department is (and I quote you naysayers) "underfunded", then it's not a good idea to stop, pause, and halt all progress in said department. That's what's happening in the Health Service, and we all know how much of a blazing success that is. By your "logic" applied in this argument, we should take a similar role in Education?

The only facts in this case, is that Waterford City (yes, City, fact. Deal with it.) is in an educational and economical black hole. A black hole that will eventually start to effect the entire country if not remedied. You make arguments about place numbers, and waiting a generation to upgrade... but this is all based on (a very silly) assumption that WIT gets upgraded and tomorrow there's 500 new places in the college!! WIT is already a very large third level institute, and I doubt very much that the upgrading will have any adverse effects on student numbers unless the demand is there. It is not about enlarging student numbers, it is about improving a service that we as a city of the Irish republic are entitled to.

Talking about the bypass and rail links proves how desperately you are trying to make this argument colonial instead of focusing on what is really the issue, the failure of the Government on the education sector in the SE. Something I think personally the naysayers have no direct knowledge about from not living here. (imho, of course)

I think that sums up the case.

Sully · 14-05-2008 10:40am

Freddie59 wrote: »

Sully - you were called a troll and dared to to ban him by the said contributor.

I ignored the comment but the said contributor has been warned after another personal remark to another person.

Any issues with my approach - take it to PM/Dub13/Feedback/Help Desk. Not on this thread please. Lets get it back on topic.

So ya. Waterford should have a University.

invincibleirish · 18-05-2008 7:49pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

Hmmm. No comment on the costings again. Amazing the way you constantly sidestep that one.:rolleyes:

i'll unretire for this, Ive spent 3 years in University, living away from home, paying for college, i have a far better idea of how much it costs to send someone to University then you do, im not side stepping anything oldman.

In Yesterdays Cork Evening Echo there was a piece on how CIT is preparing to bid for University status, using the same logic that WIT is using (and as such is as convincing a reason to upgrade that institution as WIT), on this thread repeatedly the excuse being used for WITs upgrade is simply Waterford hasnt a Uni and other places do. Its not that simple, other ITs will look at Waterford and demand similar treatment, that is how it will presented in a national context. And probably why the bid will fail, otherwise a pandoras box will be opened up.

BTW ive asked several times has WIT considered private funding for an upgrade? Have the Feeney foundation and others been asked?, most of UL was built from private donations, does WIT have anything similar in place or are they just relying on central Government for funding?.

Freddie59 · 18-05-2008 8:16pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

im not side stepping anything oldman.

Attack the post - not the poster.:) All that education didn't do much good, did it?:D

merlante · 19-05-2008 9:40am

invincibleirish wrote: »

In Yesterdays Cork Evening Echo there was a piece on how CIT is preparing to bid for University status, using the same logic that WIT is using (and as such is as convincing a reason to upgrade that institution as WIT), on this thread repeatedly the excuse being used for WITs upgrade is simply Waterford hasnt a Uni and other places do. Its not that simple, other ITs will look at Waterford and demand similar treatment, that is how it will presented in a national context. And probably why the bid will fail, otherwise a pandoras box will be opened up.

Cork IT have no argument for an upgrade. Major infrastructure is provided on the basis of regional needs and national strategy (or should be) and there is no justification for a second university in the southern region.

There is a justification for a university in the south east because the population is there, therefore the need is there, and WIT is performing at a standard sufficiently high to warrant an upgrade all things being equal.

No other IT has the same case as the WIT. The only thing CIT can accomplish is to stifle WIT's ambitions, exactly as they did in 1998. The tactics that have been adopted down through the years by CIT with regard to both UL's and WIT's bid for upgrade are shameful and cynical in the extreme. The proof of it is that they only go looking for something when it looks like another institution might be upgraded. They are otherwise silent and disinterested in the upgrade of their own institution.

invincibleirish, before we go any further, why are you dragging all this up again? Do you have a quiet week ahead of you in work or something?

invincibleirish · 19-05-2008 10:08am

merlante wrote: »

Cork IT have no argument for an upgrade. Major infrastructure is provided on the basis of regional needs and national strategy (or should be) and there is no justification for a second university in the southern region.

There is a justification for a university in the south east because the population is there, therefore the need is there, and WIT is performing at a standard sufficiently high to warrant an upgrade all things being equal.

No other IT has the same case as the WIT. The only thing CIT can accomplish is to stifle WIT's ambitions, exactly as they did in 1998. The tactics that have been adopted down through the years by CIT with regard to both UL's and WIT's bid for upgrade are shameful and cynical in the extreme. The proof of it is that they only go looking for something when it looks like another institution might be upgraded. They are otherwise silent and disinterested in the upgrade of their own institution.

invincibleirish, before we go any further, why are you dragging all this up again? Do you have a quiet week ahead of you in work or something?

Im dragging it up because as much as WIT supporters are trying to seperate their IT from other ITs on the grounds of geography, it isnt that simple, larger better resourced ITs like DIT & CIT are closely following WITs case with their own intention of achieving University status. It may be consensus down Waterford way that no other IT deserves upgrading to University status but i dont think they got the memo in Bishopstown or Aungier St., this is the tricky part for the DoE ot handle. Should a IT be upgraded purely for geographical reasons? apparently CIT is the only IT in the country that has the status to award degrees up to Phd level.

But ive had a few days to read up on the proposal, and, inspired form the another thread, came upon the idea that apparently is a Fine Gael proposal to establish a National Institute of Technology, with the present ITs as its constituent colleges. This is a solution that best fixes the problem. An NIT will rival the main Universities by its size, resources & financial strength, an NIT degree will have a weight to it that will surpass most of the Unis as it stands.

bwardrop · 19-05-2008 10:11am

invincibleirish wrote: »

apparently CIT is the only IT in the country that has the status to award degrees up to Phd level.

WIT can also award PhD's

invincibleirish · 19-05-2008 11:55am

bwardrop wrote: »

WIT can also award PhD's

Tell that to the Evening Echo (shoddy journalism)

bwardrop · 19-05-2008 11:57am

Oh yeah - DIT can too!!

merlante · 19-05-2008 1:00pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Im dragging it up because as much as WIT supporters are trying to seperate their IT from other ITs on the grounds of geography, it isnt that simple, larger better resourced ITs like DIT & CIT are closely following WITs case with their own intention of achieving University status. It may be consensus down Waterford way that no other IT deserves upgrading to University status but i dont think they got the memo in Bishopstown or Aungier St., this is the tricky part for the DoE ot handle. Should a IT be upgraded purely for geographical reasons? apparently CIT is the only IT in the country that has the status to award degrees up to Phd level.

Universities are educational and economic infrastructure. They should be provided where appropriate as part of satisfying a regional or national need. This is the only real criterion that matters. This is a question of demographics, by the way, not geography: that's why we quite rightly have a number of universities in Dublin city.

From a pragmatic point of view, other issues also come to the fore:
- In terms of an upgrade, how close is the existing institution to university standard?
- What is the established distribution of universities?
- What is the cost equation?

These are peripheral concerns, though important when it comes to garning the political will for change.

The argument that an IT should be upgraded just because it is of a particular standard is a groundless one. If the government builds an airstrip it should not be expected that the government will eventually build a fully fledged airport out of it, just because it performs to a particular standard. Airports, like anything else, should be provided where they are needed.

There is no argument whatsoever for upgrading any other institute (to full university status) except the WIT. There are more than enough universities in Dublin/East, and enough in the Southern region.

CIT are out for what they can get, without any real belief that a university is warranted or deserved. Both CIT and DIT would love to do business under the university name, which is fair enough to a point, but they should not be entitled to offer the breadth of courses and be entitled to the level of funding of a university level institution, which is what is needed, and what does not currently exist, in an institution in the south east region.

invincibleirish wrote: »

But ive had a few days to read up on the proposal, and, inspired form the another thread, came upon the idea that apparently is a Fine Gael proposal to establish a National Institute of Technology, with the present ITs as its constituent colleges. This is a solution that best fixes the problem. An NIT will rival the main Universities by its size, resources & financial strength, an NIT degree will have a weight to it that will surpass most of the Unis as it stands.

Such a setup would maintain the educational and economic disparity between the south east and the other regions. In particular, in any such NIT, mission drift would be tightly controlled thus maintaining the status quo for the WIT. Furthermore, the WIT has gone far enough on its own such that constituting it as part of some umbrella university would do not good for it whatsoever. The WIT already has a strong profile with national and European funding agencies for example.

In any case, FG are proposing an upgrade for the DIT and WIT, and only for the remaining ITs to be constituted under an umbrella technical university.

invincibleirish · 20-05-2008 3:40pm

merlante wrote: »

Universities are educational and economic infrastructure. They should be provided where appropriate as part of satisfying a regional or national need. This is the only real criterion that matters. This is a question of demographics, by the way, not geography: that's why we quite rightly have a number of universities in Dublin city..

I know what a University is.The national need takes priority over regional needs. Currently there is a surplus of University places, So in essence, supply outstrips demand. Ireland does not need another University for the foreseeable future.

merlante wrote: »

From a pragmatic point of view, other issues also come to the fore:
- In terms of an upgrade, how close is the existing institution to university standard?
- What is the established distribution of universities?
- What is the cost equation?

These are peripheral concerns, though important when it comes to garning the political will for change..

These are not peripheral concerns like you suggest, in fact they would be the main concerns and are the criteria by which the case for an upgrade of WIT fares poorly.

1.The institution (WIT) is on a par with several other ITs, thus those institutions can legitimately share the same aspirations of university status if WIT were to get an upgrade.

2.This country has Universities in its primary areas.

3. you do realise the country is facing a downturn in its public finances and, as a result, there is unlikely to be extra money available for any departments, in fact come the next budget all indicators point to all departments will be facing a cut in their budget in real terms.

merlante wrote: »

The argument that an IT should be upgraded just because it is of a particular standard is a groundless one. If the government builds an airstrip it should not be expected that the government will eventually build a fully fledged airport out of it, just because it performs to a particular standard. Airports, like anything else, should be provided where they are needed..

Really is it now? a groundless one you say? this is where any arguments about merits of upgrading WIT descend into farce, you imply that WIT should be upgraded, just because of its location and not its academic merits, thus contradicting point 1 above.

Its ironic how you reference airports as an example. the kind of logic being used to justify WITs upgrade is also the same regional mindset which means this country has lots of minor airports, expensively subsidised and completely unable to function as a going concern.

merlante wrote: »

There is no argument whatsoever for upgrading any other institute (to full university status) except the WIT.

Thats because you are using your parochial outlook to shape your opinion. You think no other IT should be allowed achieve University status on the basis that they happen to be located near Universities. DIT, CIT and im sure a few others all at least equal or surpass WIT in terms of its courses, infrastructure and student numbers, they have a legitimate claim to be upgraded if WIT is upgraded.

merlante wrote: »

There are more than enough universities in Dublin/East, and enough in the Southern region..

The southern region? does that not include Waterford? Freudian slip methinks;).

merlante wrote: »

CIT are out for what they can get, without any real belief that a university is warranted or deserved.

Really? are you sure about that? care to provide some anecdotal evidence to support that assertion?

merlante wrote: »

Both CIT and DIT would love to do business under the university name, which is fair enough to a point,but they should not be entitled to offer the breadth of courses and be entitled to the level of funding of a university level institution, which is what is needed, and what does not currently exist, in an institution in the south east region.

So what im reading here is that CIT & DIT should not be allowed to expand because Waterford doesnt want them to? despite the fact they are similar in all aspects to WIT.

Heres my other original proposal. How about amalgamating the 3 ITs in the SE to form a University?

A little piece for perspective on the issue:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/education/2008/0506/1209989925272.html

Waterford IT needs to look beyond redesignation
TOM COLLINS

TEACHING MATTERS: Regardless, the case for a university in the southeastis also open to question - there is a strong case to be made that the institutes can already claim equal status to universities.

ITs, for instance, led the way in establishing Campus Incubation Centres - facilities for IT staff and students undertaking commercialising research and innovation. These centres were designed to provide linkages and networks to the business community in the hinterland of the ITs and ensure direct contact between those involved in economic development activity at regional level with the research and teaching resources of the institutes. Over the past decade, they have become a standard feature of almost every higher education campus in Ireland.

Equally, the institutes have played a critical role in meeting the skills needs of employers and start-up industries in their regions since their establishment in the 1970s. Industrial location decisions are heavily influenced by the availability of such expertise. What is not obvious, however, is that these decision-makers show a preference for a university over an IT. They are far more likely to be influenced by the quality of teaching and research, and by the skills and adaptability of the graduates than by the institution's particular designation.

Finally, with regard to widening access to higher education, the institutes generally out-perform the universities and by a significant margin. Each institute typically attracts more than 50% of school-leavers from adjacent counties, and of this number, those from less advantaged backgrounds will have a representation of at least 2:1 over their university counterparts.

Waterford's aspirations for university status also leave it open to the suggestion - recently articulated by Danny O'Hare on these pages - that it is somehow devaluing its current status. This would become more acute should it fail in its ambitions to achieve redesignation.

None of this, however, should be construed as an argument against the legitimate ambitions of the Institutes of Technology to develop to their maximum potential as centres of excellence in higher education, both in teaching and research. In its proposals to de-limit the research activities of the institutes, the OECD Review of Higher Education in Ireland (2004) failed to appreciate the inseparability of these two processes in higher education.

Equally pious adjurations in favour of the university/institute divide ring somewhat hollow when viewed from an IT perspective. This divide has largely disappeared over the years as the institutes widened the range of their programmes and increasingly moved to degree-level provision, while the universities expanded into course areas traditionally the preserve of the institutes. Apprenticeship training, still an important aspect of the institutes' programmes, is now essentially the only remnant of the divide.

So the institutes are now competing largely on the same playing field as the universities, but are significantly under-resourced by comparison. This is despite the fact that the need for resources is likely to be greater in the institutes considering the high proportion of non-traditional students, many of whom have overcome formidable barriers in accessing higher education in the first instance.

Furthermore, the universities have been much more successful in competing for the increasing amount of discretionary research funding being allocated to higher education in Ireland. In the first three cycles of PRTLI funding, for instance, the institutes secured just €24 million of a total of €604 million. Much of the applied research work of the institutes has been ineligible for such funding.

It could be argued that issues such as these are more fundamental to the future of the institutes than how they are designated. A first condition of parity of esteem is parity of resourcing.

Against this complex background, therefore, it would be unwise for the Government to treat any individual application for university designation by an institute separately from a sector-wide strategy - there may be merit in the proposal for the redesignation of all of the Institutes of Technology as a National University of Science and Technology. Ireland has had a long and successful experience with a federal university - the National University of Ireland. So an additional university, consisting of 12 or so campuses distributed around the country with a particular focus on science, technology and business, would be certainly feasible. In this way, the understandable and legitimate aspirations of Waterford IT for redesignation could be addressed while not disadvantaging any other institute or creating any further problems down the line.

Tom Collins is Professor of Education at NUI Maynooth

merlante · 20-05-2008 5:27pm

I'm not going to bother responding directly to invincibleirish's risible response. You're trolling as far as I am concerned. You are convinced, or feigning being convinced, that I am exhibiting a regional or parochial mindset, when yours is the closed mind.

FYI:
- The south east region is not part of the southern region.

- The south east is one of the largest/populous regions (i.e. a 'primary area') and is not served by a university, as it ought to be, and as other even smaller regions are.

- The downturn is not an excuse to avoid an upgrade. The upgrade would require only tens of millions: pocket change in the grand scheme of things.

- The WIT should be upgraded, even if it were just a hole in the ground. Provision should be based on population/demographics, not history or geography or anything else. There is no argument for university provision anywhere else in the country. This is national thinking -- the opposite of *your* parochial thinking.

- The WIT and other ITs offer degrees in many subjects already, it only remains for Arts and other courses to be offered in the SE where there is huge demand for obvious reasons. These courses are cheaper to provide than the technical courses that are currently mandated by the IT remit. The WIT is about the same size as NUIM.

- The term "university places" is therefore a meaningless one.

- Most of your 'arguments' are founded on the misconception that there is nothing going on in the WIT at the moment, whereas, degrees, masters, phds are being awarded, there is a growing student body, and in terms of research, there is a huge amount of work going on. By certain metrics, such as levels of annual levels of funding awarded, the WIT equals NUIM.

- The WIT is in many ways a university already, we need to lose the shackles.

invincibleirish · 20-05-2008 6:00pm

merlante wrote: »

I'm not going to bother responding directly to invincibleirish's risible response. You're trolling as far as I am concerned. You are convinced, or feigning being convinced, that I am exhibiting a regional or parochial mindset, when yours is the closed mind.

FYI:
- The south east region is not part of the southern region.

- The south east is one of the largest/populous regions (i.e. a 'primary area') and is not served by a university, as it ought to be, and as other even smaller regions are..

We obviously have a different meaning of what we term appropriate demographics, to my mind the largest Urban conurbations in the Country have Universities. this meets national demand, presently in my mind anyone in this country can achieve a University education if they so wish.

Your line of argument is such that any other similar size area can legitimately claim to have a University, so where does it end? Does Sligo get a Uni? Does Mullingar? Athlone? Tralee?, with all the criteria used by the WIT Upgrade suporters then all these towns can justifiably claim a University on the same factors. Where does it end? and that doesnt include the larger ITs like DIT & CIT who are as equal if not greater in status then WIT and can argue the same point.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, over the past years Government Policy has focused on developing the current Universities & ITs as is, most of the Unis are struggling financially as they have to compete and keep up with standards International, they have to compete with each other for projects and future students as numbers of people doing the LC dwindle.

Against all that WIT wants to come in and get equal funding, and on top of that a clutch of more ITs who get uni status as a political compromise(remember votes are won and lost on issues like this). that means this country will have an overly bloated and grossly underfunded University sector, unless of course the Celtic tiger is going return in dramatic fashion, is it?

merlante wrote: »

- The downturn is not an excuse to avoid an upgrade. The upgrade would require only tens of millions: pocket change in the grand scheme of things.

- The WIT should be upgraded, even if it were just a hole in the ground. Provision should be based on population/demographics, not history or geography or anything else. There is no argument for university provision anywhere else in the country. This is national thinking -- the opposite of *your* parochial thinking..

Only tens of Millions? WIT doesnt have any idea of what it wants or what it can afford, does it have a plan in place? the economic downturn means a probable minor cuts in Real terms, those 10s of millions will be coming out of the Education budget, tell me what gets cut for WITs upgrade? New primary schools? New secondary schools? (both for the ever expanding Dublin suburbs & commuter towns), tell me where those tens of millions come from.

merlante wrote: »

- The WIT and other ITs offer degrees in many subjects already, it only remains for Arts and other courses to be offered in the SE where there is huge demand for obvious reasons. These courses are cheaper to provide than the technical courses that are currently mandated by the IT remit. The WIT is about the same size as NUIM.

- The term "university places" is therefore a meaningless one.

Most of your 'arguments' are founded on the misconception that there is nothing going on in the WIT at the moment, whereas, degrees, masters, phds are being awarded, there is a growing student body, and in terms of research, there is a huge amount of work going on. By certain metrics, such as levels of annual levels of funding awarded, the WIT equals NUIM.

- The WIT is in many ways a university already, we need to lose the shackles.

All equally applicable to DIT, CIT and a few other ITs no doubt.

Sully · 20-05-2008 6:25pm

Next person to accuse someone of trolling is getting an instant week ban. Why? Because its getting annoying that people have to call each other names in whats supposed to be a civil debate and they cant seem to figure out how to use the Report button to bring to my (and other mods) attention any posts they are not happy with (in terms of breaking the charter etc.)

Any concerns / issues with this? PM me. No discussion of the matter will be held here, keep to the topic please.

Thank You.

fricatus · 21-05-2008 12:03am

invincibleirish wrote: »

We obviously have a different meaning of what we term appropriate demographics, to my mind the largest Urban conurbations in the Country have Universities.

This is the nub of the issue that Waterford faces nationally. The city is marginally smaller than Galway, yet the populations within 20 km of each city are - as far as I can work out from the census - each in the region of 120-130k. I've asked two or three times in this thread if someone can come up with figures to disprove me, and nobody has so far. If someone could even come up with a map showing the names of all the DEDs in the country, I could ascertain this better.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the Waterford area clearly ranks as one of the "conurbations" you refer to (though that word is a little bit of an exaggeration), and it's the only one without a university.

invincibleirish wrote: »

Your line of argument is such that any other similar size area can legitimately claim to have a University, so where does it end? Does Sligo get a Uni? Does Mullingar? Athlone? Tralee?, with all the criteria used by the WIT Upgrade suporters then all these towns can justifiably claim a University on the same factors.

For God's sake, this is ridiculous. Waterford is the fifth-largest city in the country and the largest in the south-east, a region is larger than the western or midwestern regions, both of which have universities. It's also the largest city without a university.

Of all the towns you mention, not one has even half the population of Waterford, and of these, Sligo is the only one that fulfils any sort of regional role (airport, regional hospital, etc.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland/Largest_100

4 Galway & Suburbs 72,729
5 Waterford & Suburbs 49,213
12 Tralee & Environs 22,744
16 Sligo & Environs 19,402
18 Mullingar & Environs 18,416
21 Athlone & Environs 17,544

Your comparison is therefore flawed. If you think any or all of these towns have anything like the same pretension to a university that Waterford has, then you should also include the following towns in the south-east on your list:

13 Kilkenny & Environs 22,179
14 Carlow & Environs 20,724
19 Wexford & Environs 18,163

But no... we in the south-east are only looking for one university.

invincibleirish wrote: »

A line has to be drawn somewhere

Yes, at those cities which are big enough to warrant a city council. You seem to think that the line should not be drawn to include Waterford. I am of the opinion that it should. Consider this: Galway is only marginally bigger than Waterford and serves a smaller region. Yet it has both a university and a major IT.

Worse, back in the late '60s/early '70s it had both of these institutions even though Waterford was bigger at the time! Some might say that a university located in Waterford at the foundation of the state would have helped us to retain our place as the country's fourth city.

Leave aside all your earlier arguments and address the issue of Waterford in the context of Galway. Why shouldn't Waterford have a university when Galway has one? Why should Galway receive preferential treatment? Why indeed shouldn't Waterford have both a university and an IT?

invincibleirish · 21-05-2008 4:03am

invincibleirish wrote: »

this meets national demand, presently in my mind anyone in this country can achieve a University education if they so wish.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, over the past years Government Policy has focused on developing the current Universities & ITs as is, most of the Unis are struggling financially as they have to compete and keep up with standards International, they have to compete with each other for projects and future students as numbers of people doing the LC dwindle.

Against all that WIT wants to come in and get equal funding, and on top of that a clutch of more ITs who get uni status as a political compromise(remember votes are won and lost on issues like this). that means this country will have an overly bloated and grossly underfunded University sector,

Only tens of Millions? WIT doesnt have any idea of what it wants or what it can afford, does it have a plan in place? the economic downturn means a probable minor cuts in Real terms, those 10s of millions will be coming out of the Education budget, tell me what gets cut for WITs upgrade? New primary schools? New secondary schools? (both for the ever expanding Dublin suburbs & commuter towns), tell me where those tens of millions come from.

All equally applicable to DIT, CIT and a few other ITs no doubt.

answer the highlighted points

KingLoser · 21-05-2008 5:01am

this meets national demand, presently in my mind anyone in this country can achieve a University education if they so wish.

Yes, they can. But what you are failing to understand over and over and over... again is that some (and it's quite a significant 'some') people are unable to attend third level education because it requires them to leave home. Be it family issues, or whatever, you know there's plenty of reasons out there why people can't just up and leave.

You really have no idea of the mentality, because this problem exists in only one region of the country, the South-East. I think I read earlier in the thread that you left to go to college even though there's UCC in Cork, great! But don't try and base public opinion and needs by going on your life experience alone.

Just because you are not in need of a public service, does not mean others arn't. Waterford City deserves a University just as much as any of the other cities in this country. You can crap on all day about size and population, but that SimCity mentality doesn't actually cut it in the real world.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, over the past years Government Policy has focused on developing the current Universities & ITs as is, most of the Unis are struggling financially as they have to compete and keep up with standards International, they have to compete with each other for projects and future students as numbers of people doing the LC dwindle.

Why are you so happy to accept the shortcomings of failed Government policy? Is it normal for you to sit back and accept it? Makes me wonder a little less why FF continue to get voted in with such general apathy toward the lack of quality in our education sector.

You wish to halt everything and let education fall into the same hole as health? (Since you're so fond of reminding us that you have to repeat your points, I'd like to say I mentioned this one a few pages back with still no response.

)

Against all that WIT wants to come in and get equal funding, and on top of that a clutch of more ITs who get uni status as a political compromise(remember votes are won and lost on issues like this). that means this country will have an overly bloated and grossly underfunded University sector

WIT have been campaigning for University status long before all the others. It made it's case and had an independent report done up as to the feasibility of it actually happening. What happened then was the other IT's saw that WIT, a comparable institute to their own, making a (this bit is important) very valid bid for uni status, and decided that under the current lack of upgrading criteria, they could create equally valid bids.

Should all IT's be upgraded? Of course not. The Government should pick one, based on regional need and their own guidelines set out in the National Spatial Strategy. Yes?

Only tens of Millions? WIT doesnt have any idea of what it wants or what it can afford, does it have a plan in place? the economic downturn means a probable minor cuts in Real terms, those 10s of millions will be coming out of the Education budget, tell me what gets cut for WITs upgrade? New primary schools? New secondary schools? (both for the ever expanding Dublin suburbs & commuter towns), tell me where those tens of millions come from.

How do you know how much it is going to cost and where the money will come from? You don't. The same as anyone on this board, so stop asking questions that the ministers themselves couldn't answer at this point.

Your economic downturn argument is completely flawed. If the economy is in recess, then it would make more sense for the Government to invest in creating a highly skilled workforce in all of it's cities, and making sure that every urban centre of this country competed with others in the EU.

All equally applicable to DIT, CIT and a few other ITs no doubt.

Dealt with above.

invincibleirish · 21-05-2008 5:20pm

KingLoser wrote: »

Yes, they can. But what you are failing to understand over and over and over... again is that some (and it's quite a significant 'some') people are unable to attend third level education because it requires them to leave home. Be it family issues, or whatever, you know there's plenty of reasons out there why people can't just up and leave.

You really have no idea of the mentality, because this problem exists in only one region of the country, the South-East. I think I read earlier in the thread that you left to go to college even though there's UCC in Cork, great! But don't try and base public opinion and needs by going on your life experience alone..

There are 3 third level institutions in the SE. Establishing a University on alleged hardship cases smacks of desperation in your argument. Im going on my own personal experience, you are making assumptions on hypothetical situations of alleged hardship. Concrete evidence please. Stop making out Waterford is an educational blackhole, it isnt, the CSO figures cited showing The SE has less graduates can be attributed to lots of reasons.

KingLoser wrote: »

Just because you are not in need of a public service, does not mean others arn't. Waterford City deserves a University just as much as any of the other cities in this country. You can crap on all day about size and population, but that SimCity mentality doesn't actually cut it in the real world..

Again desperation, just because other cities have something does not give an automatic entitlement to others to the same entitlement. I 'crap on' with statistics, logic and best practice.

KingLoser wrote: »

Why are you so happy to accept the shortcomings of failed Government policy? Is it normal for you to sit back and accept it? Makes me wonder a little less why FF continue to get voted in with such general apathy toward the lack of quality in our education sector.

You wish to halt everything and let education fall into the same hole as health? (Since you're so fond of reminding us that you have to repeat your points, I'd like to say I mentioned this one a few pages back with still no response. ).

Yes we have a Government which is useless. With regards higher education policy it has made a mess. Its made a mess by underfunding the Higher Education sector, thats why Irelands Universities are struggling financially. Adding WIT and others into that funding blackhole increases the problem not solves it.

KingLoser wrote: »

WIT have been campaigning for University status long before all the others. It made it's case and had an independent report done up as to the feasibility of it actually happening. What happened then was the other IT's saw that WIT, a comparable institute to their own, making a (this bit is important) very valid bid for uni status, and decided that under the current lack of upgrading criteria, they could create equally valid bids.

Should all IT's be upgraded? Of course not. The Government should pick one, based on regional need and their own guidelines set out in the National Spatial Strategy. Yes?.

1.So what if WIT has been campaigning for a long time? why dont you get the message? a WIT upgrade isnt in the national interest, why do you think it has not been persued. It paid for an 'independent' report? wow! you can get a report on anything if you pay for it.

2. DIT is the only IT with a pressing case to be a University.it has had specific plans in place since the 1990s and has developed irregardless.Specifically its plans to build a new campus. Only in Ireland would thinking suggest that WIT would become a University and not DIT, just because of it location:rolleyes:.

3. If there is to be only one IT upgraded then DIT should be that University. However in the national interest there should be no IT upgraded, thats what DIT has been told repeatedly (and accpeted until WIT started kicking up a fuss).

4. The NSS is useless. Too many gateways for it to be taken seriously. The document is a sop to parochial interests.(ditto decentralisation).

KingLoser wrote: »

How do you know how much it is going to cost and where the money will come from? You don't. The same as anyone on this board, so stop asking questions that the ministers themselves couldn't answer at this point.

Your economic downturn argument is completely flawed. If the economy is in recess, then it would make more sense for the Government to invest in creating a highly skilled workforce in all of it's cities, and making sure that every urban centre of this country competed with others in the EU.

I didnt speculate it would cost 10s of millions ,someone else did, any University upgrade would entail building of specialist purpose built facilities. Money this country doesnt have presently. Of course if all that money wasnt wasted on those E-Voting machines then more money might have been available?;)

And how exactly is my economic downturn argument 'flawed'? any money for an upgrade will come out of public finances, either out of the current Education budget or through special provision. Im 100% certain there are far more pressing issues that need funding nationally rather then a WIT upgrade. Like health. or making sure our present Universities are viable and competitive.

invincibleirish · 21-05-2008 5:49pm

fricatus wrote: »

This is the nub of the issue that Waterford faces nationally. The city is marginally smaller than Galway, yet the populations within 20 km of each city are - as far as I can work out from the census - each in the region of 120-130k. I've asked two or three times in this thread if someone can come up with figures to disprove me, and nobody has so far. If someone could even come up with a map showing the names of all the DEDs in the country, I could ascertain this better.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the Waterford area clearly ranks as one of the "conurbations" you refer to (though that word is a little bit of an exaggeration), and it's the only one without a university.

Again as i mentioned time and time again, Its not a case of reach 500k and get 1 University, reach a Million and get 2 Universities etc., This country has enough Universities, Ireland isnt the US, just because there is not a University on your doorstep doesnt immediately entitle you to one.

Ireland has enough Universities to meet demand. If this was 10 years ago when there was a need to expand University infrastructure to accomodate numbers then WIT may have been able to get its piece of the pie then. Now in 2008 we have enough University places, you are asking to increase in supply the number of University places when there is an oversupply of University & IT places in the country.

fricatus wrote: »

For God's sake, this is ridiculous. Waterford is the fifth-largest city in the country and the largest in the south-east, a region is larger than the western or midwestern regions, both of which have universities. It's also the largest city without a university.

Of all the towns you mention, not one has even half the population of Waterford, and of these, Sligo is the only one that fulfils any sort of regional role (airport, regional hospital, etc.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland/Largest_100

4 Galway & Suburbs 72,729
5 Waterford & Suburbs 49,213
12 Tralee & Environs 22,744
16 Sligo & Environs 19,402
18 Mullingar & Environs 18,416
21 Athlone & Environs 17,544

Your comparison is therefore flawed. If you think any or all of these towns have anything like the same pretension to a university that Waterford has, then you should also include the following towns in the south-east on your list:

13 Kilkenny & Environs 22,179
14 Carlow & Environs 20,724
19 Wexford & Environs 18,163

But no... we in the south-east are only looking for one university.

Yes, at those cities which are big enough to warrant a city council. You seem to think that the line should not be drawn to include Waterford. I am of the opinion that it should. Consider this: Galway is only marginally bigger than Waterford and serves a smaller region. Yet it has both a university and a major IT.

Waterford maybe 'the fifth-largest city in the country and the largest in the south-east' but thats a meaningless statement, you dont build a University in an area just because it has a City Council, look at Maynooth FFS! Galway & Cork both had Universities years before their respective City Councils were established.

. The SE is just a loose designation taken to the extreme by some, Tipp, Kilkenny & Wexford are as close in travel time & distance to other centres as well.

BTW the towns i referenced fit the same profile as Waterford, small, prominent in their region and possess an IT. Thats the criteria i used.

fricatus wrote: »

Worse, back in the late '60s/early '70s it had both of these institutions even though Waterford was bigger at the time! Some might say that a university located in Waterford at the foundation of the state would have helped us to retain our place as the country's fourth city.

Leave aside all your earlier arguments and address the issue of Waterford in the context of Galway. Why shouldn't Waterford have a university when Galway has one? Why should Galway receive preferential treatment? Why indeed shouldn't Waterford have both a university and an IT?

Galway doesnt receive preferential treatment:rolleyes:., it was established in the middle of the 19th Century FFS!

the second last paragraph i qouted i think highlights what is the crux of the issue. Pure unadulterated parochialism,it made me smile:p.

fricatus · 21-05-2008 9:46pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Again as i mentioned time and time again, Its not a case of reach 500k and get 1 University, reach a Million and get 2 Universities etc.

Eh... why not?

invincibleirish wrote: »

Ireland has enough Universities to meet demand.

This has been a core point that you've made time and time again, but it's flawed. Ireland's population growth rate is one of the highest in Europe. Any current fall-off in demand for university places is a temporary blip.

invincibleirish wrote: »

Waterford maybe 'the fifth-largest city in the country and the largest in the south-east' but thats a meaningless statement, you dont build a University in an area just because it has a City Council, look at Maynooth FFS! Galway & Cork both had Universities years before their respective City Councils were established.

Maynooth is a red herring. Galway and Cork had universities before the Irish state was even established. But now that we're masters of our own destiny, why not equip all the Republic's cities with a university? Establishing UL was a good move in that direction - now it's Waterford's turn as the country's largest city without one.

invincibleirish wrote: »

. The SE is just a loose designation taken to the extreme by some, Tipp, Kilkenny & Wexford are as close in travel time & distance to other centres as well.

A "loose designation"? The south-east is well established as a regional organisational unit in Ireland (viz. health boards, IDA, Bord Fáilte, etc.), and has been for over 40 years! I'm surprised you don't know these things, given how sure you sound of yourself!

And for God's sake, look at Wexford on a map, would you?

invincibleirish wrote: »

BTW the towns i referenced fit the same profile as Waterford, small, prominent in their region and possess an IT. Thats the criteria i used.

Your criteria appear to be made up on the spot to bolster your argument. How about these criteria: over 100,000 population within a 20k radius, an international airport, a regional hospital, a city council... now we're talking about Limerick, Cork, Galway and Waterford. Don't like these criteria becuase they don't fit your views? Well they're just as valid as yours...

invincibleirish wrote: »

Galway doesnt receive preferential treatment:rolleyes:., it was established in the middle of the 19th Century FFS!

Well, that's debatable... but in any case it's not what I said. I asked the following question, which you haven't answered:

"Why shouldn't Waterford have a university when Galway has one? Why should Galway receive preferential treatment? Why indeed shouldn't Waterford have both a university and an IT?"

invincibleirish wrote: »

the second last paragraph i qouted i think highlights what is the crux of the issue. Pure unadulterated parochialism,it made me smile:p.

You can smirk all you like. Similar cities and regions around the country should be equipped with similar facilities in the areas of health, education, transport, etc., otherwise some regions suffer a disadvantage. That's equality, not parochialism.

invincibleirish · 22-05-2008 12:45am

fricatus wrote: »

Eh... why not?

Because Universities arent set up like that.

fricatus wrote: »

This has been a core point that you've made time and time again, but it's flawed. Ireland's population growth rate is one of the highest in Europe. Any current fall-off in demand for university places is a temporary blip. .

Its only flawed because you dont agree with it, but its what holds true. If and when Irelands population dramatically expands and pressure begins to increase for extra University & IT places then maybe the issue can be revisited. Right now the Education budget priority right now must be building new Primary & Secondary Schools for areas without, This is a more critical issue then an IT (or ITs) upgrade.

fricatus wrote: »

Maynooth is a red herring. Galway and Cork had universities before the Irish state was even established. But now that we're masters of our own destiny, why not equip all the Republic's cities with a university? Establishing UL was a good move in that direction - now it's Waterford's turn as the country's largest city without one..

Why is it Waterfords turn? where is it set in stone that Waterford must get a Uni? We're masters of our destiny alright, we as irish people elect a Government to make decisions, our Government does not judge it a good idea to establish WIT, they asked the Universities, im sure they commisioned their own reports, and their judgement is we are ok with what we have.

fricatus wrote: »

A "loose designation"? The south-east is well established as a regional organisational unit in Ireland (viz. health boards, IDA, Bord Fáilte, etc.), and has been for over 40 years! I'm surprised you don't know these things, given how sure you sound of yourself!

And for God's sake, look at Wexford on a map, would you?.

Look at north Wexford. Look at Gorey & Enniscorthy and the rest of the N11 corridor, now can you guess why those towns and the road have developed over the past decade or so?

Its great that the IDA, Bord Failte and whoever else designate the SE as a region, but its still not valid grounds to establish a Uni!

fricatus wrote: »

Your criteria appear to be made up on the spot to bolster your argument. How about these criteria: over 100,000 population within a 20k radius, an international airport, a regional hospital, a city council... now we're talking about Limerick, Cork, Galway and Waterford. Don't like these criteria becuase they don't fit your views? Well they're just as valid as yours....

Thats crap criteria! wow, you have a hospital, wow you have a City council, wow you have an *international* airport, how is this relevant? do you think that each City should have a set list of infrastructure irregardless of size or need?
Are you crazy? i get the feeling you subscribe to the 'build it and they will come' philosophy why else would you consider having a tiny Airport as a badge of status.Your mindset is no different to parochial attitudes evident everywhere from Kerry to the West of Ireland, lets get Dublin to pay for stuff, we dont get our fair share etc..., the SE is not a primary region.

fricatus wrote: »

Well, that's debatable... but in any case it's not what I said. I asked the following question, which you haven't answered:

"Why shouldn't Waterford have a university when Galway has one? Why should Galway receive preferential treatment? Why indeed shouldn't Waterford have both a university and an IT?".

1.Ireland has enough Universities
2.Galway doesnt receive preferential treatment, you just think it does.
3.Because they would stand near empty.Ireland has enough Universities.

fricatus wrote: »

You can smirk all you like. Similar cities and regions around the country should be equipped with similar facilities in the areas of health, education, transport, etc., otherwise some regions suffer a disadvantage. That's equality, not parochialism.

Yes, relative to their size and subject to need. Waterford is a small city, Ireland has enough Universities, thus, the country does not need another University duh:p.

WIT University

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