WIT University

merlante

invincibleirish wrote: »

Why is it Waterfords turn? where is it set in stone that Waterford must get a Uni? We're masters of our destiny alright, we as irish people elect a Government to make decisions, our Government does not judge it a good idea to establish WIT, they asked the Universities, im sure they commisioned their own reports, and their judgement is we are ok with what we have.

That's funny, isin't that what the government is *about* to do? Isin't that what Hanafin said she would do a few days before she got moved?

There has been no examination of the case yet. Try to keep abreast of the facts.

invincibleirish wrote: »

Thats crap criteria! wow, you have a hospital, wow you have a City council, wow you have an *international* airport, how is this relevant? do you think that each City should have a set list of infrastructure irregardless of size or need?
Are you crazy? i get the feeling you subscribe to the 'build it and they will come' philosophy why else would you consider having a tiny Airport as a badge of status.Your mindset is no different to parochial attitudes evident everywhere from Kerry to the West of Ireland, lets get Dublin to pay for stuff, we dont get our fair share etc..., the SE is not a primary region.

The SE is a primary region: it is larger than the mid-west and west, which are other primary regions. You might want to make a visit to the CSO website, where many of your biases could be safely ironed out.

invincibleirish wrote: »

1.Ireland has enough Universities

It doesn't matter how many times you make the statement, it's not going to get any more true. You do not judge how many universities is enough for Ireland. That is a matter for regional and national strategy.

I for one, believe that a university in the south east is 100% consistent with the way we've planned university provision in this country so far: a university in every large region. The population has doubled in the recent past. Most of our universities already take in more undergrads than Harvard, so over-subscription is a red herring.

8 universities would also mirror the government strategy of establishing 8 cancer centres in the country, one of which is of course Waterford, serving the south east. What is sound planning in health, will be just as sound in education. 8 universities would not be unusual in an international context, where various models are used successfully: look at Norway, Finland and New Zealand.

invincibleirish wrote: »

3.Because they would stand near empty.Ireland has enough Universities.

Still not getting any more true.

If that's your own opinion 'out invincibleirish way' then make your argument. Just repeating the same rubbish ad-nauseum, which giving any sort of analysis or reasoning, proves nothing, for all your bluff and bluster.

invincibleirish wrote: »

Yes, relative to their size and subject to need. Waterford is a small city, Ireland has enough Universities, thus, the country does not need another University duh:p.

The size of Waterford is almost irrelevant. The south east is a region of 460,000. Those 460,000 people are entitled to what the 300-500,000 in the other large regions are entitled to, and already receive, by virtue of the tax they pay and their equal place under the constitution.

There would want to be a spectacular reason to deny one region, whilst the south, mid-west, west, east and Dublin are all amply facilitated. You have not provided any such reason, because lets face it, there isn't one. Your argument stems from the unproven assertion that 'we have too many universities', which we don't (since we're giving opinions as fact).

Introducing the WIT into the university sector will have nothing like the earth shattering consequences you seem to believe it would have. The WIT is at about 70% of where it would be, given university powers and funding. The increase in funding would have only a small marginal impact on existing universities. Even if the WIT were to be built from scratch -- and was not already the recipient of a recurrent budget -- the marginal loss to other universities, in terms of slice of the pie, would be 12.5% (all things being equal). The marginal loss to other universities, given that the WIT already exists and is already being funded as a large IT, would probably be half that, if even.

If the needs of the SE can be served for a marginal loss of 5%/6% to other universities, then that's a pretty reasonable deal. Particularly since the WIT, and any future university, generates huge economic activity that would not otherwise be generated. The south east region is currently the poorest region with the possible exception of the much less populated BMW. It should be a national as well as a regional priority to reverse this, particularly since the SE has many natural advantages which would seem to indicate that it would respond well to investment.

You've cynically insinuated that all of the people who are arguing with you do so from a sheerly parochial mindset. The thread on the government refusing to fund Waterford Crystal might serve to open your eyes on that score. People are perfectly willing to accept that WC is not a good investment for Ireland, and that funding realistically should be held back because, in any case, the jobs are going to be lost sooner or later. But the university issue is very different. A university for the south east is absolutely key to the future growth and success of the region, and it is my belief, and the belief of many better qualified than I, that in the final analysis it will prove to be a boon for the country as well. UL and DCU have gone on to distinguish themselves in areas where the traditional universities have been lax, the WIT or whatever it becomes, will do just as well.

bwardrop

Nicely put merlante.

invincibleirish

merlante wrote: »

That's funny, isin't that what the government is *about* to do? Isin't that what Hanafin said she would do a few days before she got moved?

There has been no examination of the case yet. Try to keep abreast of the facts..

:rolleyes:, Hanafin didnt have the balls to tell Waterford what the situation is. Shipping the idea off to the neverland of reports and the like is indicative of where an WIT upgrade is in the scheme of things.

merlante wrote: »

The SE is a primary region: it is larger than the mid-west and west, which are other primary regions. You might want to make a visit to the CSO website, where many of your biases could be safely ironed out..

Nonsense, Dublin and its hinterland is the only primary region in the country, repeat after me Core & Peripheral, Core & Peripheral, the CSO website is an inforamtive tool, why not check out its social transfer statistics for Waterford and tell me how Waterford fares?

merlante wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many times you make the statement, it's not going to get any more true. You do not judge how many universities is enough for Ireland. That is a matter for regional and national strategy..

I make the statement because its true, we do have enough University places, 10 years ago we didnt, now we do. Dont tell me what i can and cannot 'judge', im merely repeating established views. National strategy is to focus on developing the present Universities.

merlante wrote: »

I for one, believe that a university in the south east is 100% consistent with the way we've planned university provision in this country so far: a university in every large region. The population has doubled in the recent past. Most of our universities already take in more undergrads than Harvard, so over-subscription is a red herring..

This is complete BS. Where does it say every region has to have a University?. You prove my point, our universities are capable of dealing with large numbers of undergrads, i never said our Universities are oversubscribed, just that there is a sufficient number of places to meet national demand.

merlante wrote: »

8 universities would also mirror the government strategy of establishing 8 cancer centres in the country, one of which is of course Waterford, serving the south east. What is sound planning in health, will be just as sound in education. 8 universities would not be unusual in an international context, where various models are used successfully: look at Norway, Finland and New Zealand..

Pfft! you cite sound planning and health in the same sentence, dont make me laugh:pac:. Wiki tells me Finland has 21 Universities, Norway has 7

merlante wrote: »

Still not getting any more true.

If that's your own opinion 'out invincibleirish way' then make your argument. Just repeating the same rubbish ad-nauseum, which giving any sort of analysis or reasoning, proves nothing, for all your bluff and bluster..

Of course your entitled to your own opinion, but that statement is of course nonsense, if you dont like my Viewpoint call me on what i say. you have failed miserably so far;). You dont think Ireland has enough University places. You are wrong, we do. in the Mid 1990s Ireland didnt, but after a big capital spend we now do, you admitted this yourself in a previous paragraph when you acknowledged how many Undergrads our Unis are taking in.

merlante wrote: »

The size of Waterford is almost irrelevant. The south east is a region of 460,000. Those 460,000 people are entitled to what the 300-500,000 in the other large regions are entitled to, and already receive, by virtue of the tax they pay and their equal place under the constitution..

Oh so its a constitutional right to have a University on your doorstep now is it? Your Hyperbole amuses me:p, those 460k you cite can go to University if they wish, i asked elsewhere for anecdotal evidence that people are missing out on a University Education, still waiting.....

merlante wrote: »

There would want to be a spectacular reason to deny one region, whilst the south, mid-west, west, east and Dublin are all amply facilitated. You have not provided any such reason, because lets face it, there isn't one. Your argument stems from the unproven assertion that 'we have too many universities', which we don't (since we're giving opinions as fact)..

Well off the top of my head:

1. This Country has enough Universities (yes i know you refuse to believe this but i cant pull your head out of the clouds), i never said we have too many Unis.

2. The SE isnt being denied anything, you're just bitter central Government has'nt rolled over and given into your (unreasonable) demands.

3. you are not convincing me because you are citing again other regions and expecting parity treatment without looking at the bigger, national picture.

merlante wrote: »

Introducing the WIT into the university sector will have nothing like the earth shattering consequences you seem to believe it would have. The WIT is at about 70% of where it would be, given university powers and funding. The increase in funding would have only a small marginal impact on existing universities. Even if the WIT were to be built from scratch -- and was not already the recipient of a recurrent budget -- the marginal loss to other universities, in terms of slice of the pie, would be 12.5% (all things being equal). The marginal loss to other universities, given that the WIT already exists and is already being funded as a large IT, would probably be half that, if even..

Get it into your head, our Universities are already underfunded! There cannot be any shortfall in funding, they need more money to compete and prosper not less! Thats before we even factor other educational spending like i cited, as i keep asking, tell me what gets cut so WIT gets it upgrade?

merlante wrote: »

If the needs of the SE can be served for a marginal loss of 5%/6% to other universities, then that's a pretty reasonable deal. Particularly since the WIT, and any future university, generates huge economic activity that would not otherwise be generated. The south east region is currently the poorest region with the possible exception of the much less populated BMW. It should be a national as well as a regional priority to reverse this, particularly since the SE has many natural advantages which would seem to indicate that it would respond well to investment..

This paragraph is truly hilarious and another window into the regional mindset. You want the Unis to lose a % of their income and expect the WIT upgrade to be a national issue?, that somehow we should all club together and recognise that WIT 'generates huge economic activity' and that 'since the SE has many natural advantages which would seem to indicate that it would respond well to investment', oh thats ok then, lets ignore our bigger and better educational institutions and cities and focus on Waterford! woo!

of course this thread informed me all about Waterfords 'natural advantages', like let me guess,its marginally closer to Europe & the UK? thats one anyway, er what else? dont bother answering i dont really care im just highlighting how ridiculous you are sounding.

merlante wrote: »

You've cynically insinuated that all of the people who are arguing with you do so from a sheerly parochial mindset. The thread on the government refusing to fund Waterford Crystal might serve to open your eyes on that score. People are perfectly willing to accept that WC is not a good investment for Ireland, and that funding realistically should be held back because, in any case, the jobs are going to be lost sooner or later. But the university issue is very different. A university for the south east is absolutely key to the future growth and success of the region, and it is my belief, and the belief of many better qualified than I, that in the final analysis it will prove to be a boon for the country as well. UL and DCU have gone on to distinguish themselves in areas where the traditional universities have been lax, the WIT or whatever it becomes, will do just as well.

This paragraph says 3 things:

1. Waterford Crystal. This is irrelevant to the thread.

2. I cant change what you believe.

3. UL & DCU prospered due to being established at a time when there was a dearth of University places available.

bwardrop

invincibleirish wrote: »

1. Waterford Crystal. This is irrelevant to the thread.

How is using a valid example to illustrate a point irrelevant?

invincibleirish

bwardrop wrote: »

How is using a valid example to illustrate a point irrelevant?

Well he cited the WC thread as proof positive of a lack of a parochial mindset amongst the good burghers of Waterford. However this was after he said:

If the needs of the SE can be served for a marginal loss of 5%/6% to other universities

Which is parochial in the extreme!. take money from other areas and give to Waterford, weaken our current Unis so Waterford can get one etc., thats the attitude i constantly talk about. That viewpoint is Narrow minded & ignorant and done ourt country terrible damage (putting local interests above national interests, big cheer to our comrades in Shannon on that one:cool:).

merlante

invincibleirish wrote: »

Well he cited the WC thread as proof positive of a lack of a parochial mindset amongst the good burghers of Waterford. However this was after he said:

Which is parochial in the extreme!. take money from other areas and give to Waterford, weaken our current Unis so Waterford can get one etc., thats the attitude i constantly talk about. That viewpoint is Narrow minded & ignorant and done ourt country terrible damage (putting local interests above national interests, big cheer to our comrades in Shannon on that one:cool:).

I'm still waiting for the rationale for your assertion that we have too many universities in Ireland. Other countries of the same size have more, others have less. What is your killer argument that 7 is the magic number for Ireland? Do you even have a mildly convincing argument?

And again, your use of the word 'parochial' and colourful language like 'burghers of Waterford' doesn't get you anywhere in a rational argument based on facts. You're only making yourself look ridiculous.

I never suggested taking money from other universities. I suggested that universities' slice of the pie might be 5%/6% less in the future if the WIT were upgraded than otherwise. Would it really hurt you that much to see a reprioritisation of 5%/6% away from individual colleges towards a Waterford upgrade? It certainly wouldn't hurt the country in the grievious manner you've hinted at -- and in my view would benefit the country hugely by regenerating a depressed region containing 11% of the population of the state.

Upgrading the WIT will in itself increase the size of the pie in any case. The WIT, as it is, makes a sizeable contribution to the regional and national economy.

The only narrow minded view is your own. You have repeated the same tired, dogmatic assertions throughout all your posts: 'we have enough universities already', 'you are parochial', 'upgrading the WIT is unjustified and bad for the country', etc., etc., and you will in all likelihood continue to do so. But you have to convince people of what you say. Make your arguments if you have any.

invincibleirish

merlante wrote: »

I'm still waiting for the rationale for your assertion that we have too many universities in Ireland. Other countries of the same size have more, others have less. What is your killer argument that 7 is the magic number for Ireland? Do you even have a mildly convincing argument?.

you are embarrassing yourself:D, i never said Ireland had too many Universities, Whats my killer argument? simple logic. There is no demand in this country for extra University places, how can you not comprehend this? ? why is this not computing in your head? Currently supply & Demand suggests we have a surplus of places, CAO applications are down, numbers doing the LC are down, foreign students studying here is up, how on earth are you arriving at the conclusion that this country needs additional 3rd level places? are you in a time machine and posting from 1996?

merlante wrote: »

And again, your use of the word 'parochial' and colourful language like 'burghers of Waterford' doesn't get you anywhere in a rational argument based on facts. You're only making yourself look ridiculous..

Get over yourself? resorting to this says all you need to know, this is not Dail Eireann or a formal setting, the language i use is irrelevant.

And you are misunderstanding the concept of a balanced argument, you need Facts and common sense in equal measure, repeatedly repeating the argument that because the SE has so many people it should have a Uni is stupid, you are not taking into account other factors which i have repeatedly mentioned, you are not going to convince anyone with that logic.

Getting personal with me is pointless, the Questions i ask and the very obvious flaws i point out which are what any reasonable person will also ask, nevermind the Civil Servants in the DoE when they are costing this potential project and assessing the reasons why exactly WIT should be upgraded.

merlante wrote: »

I never suggested taking money from other universities. I suggested that universities' slice of the pie might be 5%/6% less in the future if the WIT were upgraded than otherwise. Would it really hurt you that much to see a reprioritisation of 5%/6% away from individual colleges towards a Waterford upgrade? It certainly wouldn't hurt the country in the grievious manner you've hinted at -- and in my view would benefit the country hugely by regenerating a depressed region containing 11% of the population of the state..

Didnt you now?

If the needs of the SE can be served for a marginal loss of 5%/6% to other universities

instead of typing the point yet again let me repeat myself again:rolleyes:

Get it into your head, our Universities are already underfunded! There cannot be any shortfall in funding, they need more money to compete and prosper not less! Thats before we even factor other educational spending like i cited, as i keep asking, tell me what gets cut so WIT gets it upgrade?

You are advocating handicapping our current Unis by pushing for WITs upgrade, can you not see how that is considered a parochial mindset?

merlante wrote: »

Upgrading the WIT will in itself increase the size of the pie in any case. The WIT, as it is, makes a sizeable contribution to the regional and national economy..

No it will not increase the size of this 'pie', public finances are in decline, we dont have extra money, it will have to come from somewhere. The priority for extra education spending is on building new Primary & Secondary schools across the state, how do you not realise this? do you follow or even keep abreast of current affairs of any kind(outside of Waterford that is)? There is no such thing as free money.

merlante wrote: »

The only narrow minded view is your own. You have repeated the same tired, dogmatic assertions throughout all your posts: 'we have enough universities already', 'you are parochial', 'upgrading the WIT is unjustified and bad for the country', etc., etc., and you will in all likelihood continue to do so. But you have to convince people of what you say. Make your arguments if you have any.

Yeah whatever:rolleyes:, im the narrow minded one;):D:pac:


one more time with feeling:

If the needs of the SE can be served for a marginal loss of 5%/6% to other universities, then that's a pretty reasonable deal...It should be a national as well as a regional priority to reverse this, particularly since the SE has many natural advantages which would seem to indicate that it would respond well to investment..

If you think that isnt a parochial Waterford mindset attitude then you must be imbibing some serious drugs.

bwardrop

invincibleirish wrote: »

you are embarrassing yourself:D, i never said Ireland had too many Universities, Whats my killer argument? simple logic. There is no demand in this country for extra University places, how can you not comprehend this? ? why is this not computing in your head? Currently supply & Demand suggests we have a surplus of places, CAO applications are down, numbers doing the LC are down, foreign students studying here is up, how on earth are you arriving at the conclusion that this country needs additional 3rd level places? are you in a time machine and posting from 1996?

Wasn't so sure of your claims (despite you being so adamant!) and started look up some info...

From CAO stats (http://www2.cao.ie/dir_report/content.htm):

Total applicants in 2007 - 61,961
Total applicants in 2008 - 63,868
Diff: + 1,907 / + 3.08%

Applicants to level 6/7 courses 2007: 39,727
Applicants to level 6/7 courses 2008: 37,818
Diff: - 1,909 / - 4.81%

Applicants to level 8 courses 2007: 55,172
Applicants to level 8 courses 2008: 56,315
Diff: + 1,143 / + 2.07%

Differences between 2006 and 2007 are similar. I think that definitively negates your argument that CAO applications are down.

merlante

bwardrop wrote: »

Wasn't so sure of your claims here and started look up some info...

"...as of March 2008, applications to courses at both Level 8 (honours degrees) and Levels 7 and 6 (ordinary degrees and higher certificates), grouped in 17 categories... went up to 63,868 applicants, an increase of 1,907 on the March 2007 figure of 61,961 applicants, which represents a rise of 3.08pc"

Have to pop out now - will return to this later.

Nice one bwardrop, this was the only part of his post worth responding to.

Numbers doing honours degrees are up, numbers doing ordinary and certs are down. Perfect timing for a change in focus for an institute like WIT in a national context, co-inciding with the regional requirement for university education.

The population is increasing. In the past 10 years, since NUIM was designated a university, the population has increased by about 400,000 people. The birth rate is the highest in the EU, higher than it has been in the recent past. A huge amount of non-EU students study here now as compared with the 90's. There is an increasing emphasis on upskilling and life-long education that the university and IT sectors are expected to fulfill. And oh yes, weren't be betting our future on a knowledge economy?

He continues to use the idiotic term 'university places' as if it is meaningful. What is a university place? A place in a degree or phd programme? The WIT already offers 'university places' on more or less the whole gammut of technical and applied courses. It is already competing with the universities. It should be allowed to compete across the full range of courses.

Why should the WIT be restricted in developing its third level places while the universities are given a free hand? What benefit is there to the country in stifling one region in favour of other regions?

Marcus.Aurelius

With the economy begining to stale a bit, funding for third level will not substantially increase. UCD, TCD, UCC etc., are straining to keep within their existing budgets. While research grants are all well and good, they don't pay for new buildings or much change in the way of facilities.

I disagree with most proponents of WIT upgrade, but even if i did agree, the money is not there at the moment. And with talk of fees being reintroduced to counteract the downturn in funding (vs. inflation), I can't imagine CAO applications increasing in that case. And if they do (as has been the case recently) the universities have the capacity to take them in. So that's a moot point in the PRO camp

Whatever the monetary reasons for denying Waterford IT its upgrade, the academic reasons also speak loudly.

All the universities are leaders in science research. WIT has let its science facilities (B corridor) decay. Apart from a new floor and paint job, SFA has changed. What areas are the WIT thought of as leaders in?

No matter what you might say about quangos declaring Waterford, Kilkenny, Tipperary and Carlow in the southeast, Wexford and East Waterford (including the city itself) are the only ones in the southeast geographically speaking. Ask anyone outside the area, they only see Wexford as the sunny southeast.
Waterford is south (Munster south), Tipperary is central Munster, Kilkenny is West Leinster and Carlow is definitely midlands, as much as Kildare is not in the east, but midlands. The only place I've heard tell of this region is in WIT and on that heapash*te, Beat FM

Interestingly, what would a theoretical WU specialise in?

Rec Man? :pac:

bwardrop

invincibleirish wrote: »

Get it into your head, our Universities are already underfunded! There cannot be any shortfall in funding, they need more money to compete and prosper not less! Thats before we even factor other educational spending like i cited, as i keep asking, tell me what gets cut so WIT gets it upgrade?

The government is already funding WIT. This money will follow WIT if it gets upgraded. There will be an initial need for funding - this will primarily to hire new staff to drive research (the embargo on hiring staff is really hampering WIT's ability to carry out research and generate income).

From the JM Consulting report, initiated by the DOE:

Upgrading WIT to University status would cost "... in the order of €20 million annually, once a steady state is reached.... even (as is quite possible) if this is an underestimate, we would have to conclude that funding one additional University in Waterford would not represent a significant addition to the Government's higher education expenditure."

Marcus.Aurelius

bwardrop wrote: »

Upgrading WIT to University status would cost "... in the order of €20 million annually, once a steady state is reached.... even (as is quite possible) if this is an underestimate, we would have to conclude that funding one additional University in Waterford would not represent a significant addition to the Government's higher education expenditure."

Not disagreeing with you here, but if Fianna Fail were to agree to this, do you really think they could stop themselves from spending 8x the actual cost in paying off their buddies in the construction business? (see port tunnell, M50, M1 etc).

It's a huge investment, just because FF can't do anything right. And frankly, I don't trust them to do it right at all.

What was the proposed initial outlay (cost of upgrade)? (before steady state is achieved)

bwardrop

maoleary wrote: »

All the universities are leaders in science research. WIT has let its science facilities (B corridor) decay. Apart from a new floor and paint job, SFA has changed. What areas are the WIT thought of as leaders in?

Just to keep you up to date, a group from WIT have recently secured funding in the region of €4million based on their expertise in certain areas. A huge chunk of this money was secured by a research group based in science / health science. There will be significant investment in facilities in the next few months. This was all achieved on the merits of the research carried out in WIT.

Being a IT means you can't hire staff, let alone dedicated researchers. This has hampered WIT developing it's research portfolio to the extent that it could. The research that is carried out is completed by extremely hardworking individuals who do their research / supervision alongside a full (18hrs/week) lecturing timetable. Find me a University lecturer who does more than 18hrs lecturing a semester...

Also, check out TSSG - http://www.tssg.org/

They are a world renowned research group from WIT.

maoleary wrote: »

Interestingly, what would a theoretical WU specialise in?

Rec Man? :pac:

I happen to work in the Department of Sport, Health and Exercise Science in WIT - what I presume you are referring to when you mention Rec Man. The Dept has grown to meet the demands of our stakeholders and we now offer 3 level 8 degree courses - BA in Recreation and Leisure, BA in Health Promotion and the BA in Exercise and Health. We have a number of excellent researchers in our Dept - involved in the research groups mentioned above. We are now one of the more dynamic and productive depts in WIT. I myself specialise in exercise physiology and work with the Paralympic Council of Ireland as their Team Sports Physiologist. The work / research I carry out with these athletes is pretty unique - there is certainly no other groups in Ireland working on it

Marcus.Aurelius

bwardrop wrote: »

I happen to work in the Department of Sport, Health and Exercise Science in WIT - what I presume you are referring to when you mention Rec Man. The Dept has grown to meet the demands of our stakeholders and we now offer 3 level 8 degree courses - BA in Recreation and Leisure, BA in Health Promotion and the BA in Exercise and Health. We have a number of excellent researchers in our Dept - involved in the research groups mentioned above. We are now one of the more dynamic and productive depts in WIT. I myself specialise in exercise physiology and work with the Paralympic Council of Ireland as their Team Sports Physiologist. The work / research I carry out with these athletes is pretty unique - there is certainly no other groups in Ireland working on it

I yield to your points on the Sport/Health/Exercise dept, I didn't know you guys researched so much. But you surely recognise that universities are leaders in their fields, not just chucking out a few novel papers a year? Thats all that Chemical and Life Sciences manages in WIT, its not promoted or managed properly.

EDIT: incidentally, as a postgrad in UCD, I did 56 hours lecturing last semester, my supervisor hardly has any spare time, with lectures, meetings, boards, exam boards etc. Some lecturers do far less, but don't generalise! And the funding WIT got; they were in eighth place, they may be the best IT, but that doesn't mean anything.

bwardrop

maoleary wrote: »

EDIT: incidentally, as a postgrad in UCD, I did 56 hours lecturing last semester, my supervisor hardly has any spare time, with lectures, meetings, boards, exam boards etc. Some lecturers do far less, but don't generalise!

In WIT (and other IT's) most full time lecturers will be on 18 hours per week - over a 12 week semester this is 216 hours lecturing. Then add in lecture prep, meetings, boards, exam boards etc and you can see how tough it is to remain active in research...

invincibleirish

bwardrop wrote: »

Wasn't so sure of your claims (despite you being so adamant!) and started look up some info...

From CAO stats (http://www2.cao.ie/dir_report/content.htm):

Total applicants in 2007 - 61,961
Total applicants in 2008 - 63,868
Diff: + 1,907 / + 3.08%

Applicants to level 6/7 courses 2007: 39,727
Applicants to level 6/7 courses 2008: 37,818
Diff: - 1,909 / - 4.81%

Applicants to level 8 courses 2007: 55,172
Applicants to level 8 courses 2008: 56,315
Diff: + 1,143 / + 2.07%

Differences between 2006 and 2007 are similar. I think that definitively negates your argument that CAO applications are down.

ah selective qouting of statistics, an old favourite of mine,i'll happily admit i was wrong, i am very sorry i must be completely wrong in everything so according to some:rolleyes:.

your link doesnt work so i had to go to the CAO site myself. to add to those figures above 2005 had 59k, and between 2004 & 2000 it averaged in and around 60k, in otherwords, an average of 60k, now is it me or does our current 3rd level infrastructure not cater for this 60k per year?. Yes, yes it does (not very well).

What i would be interested in finding is actual numbers doing the Leaving Cert, if memory serves me correct these numbers peaked in the mid/late 90s and stagnated somewhat since, i'm more then willing to be put in my place on this one too if someone does the detective work;).

invincibleirish

bwardrop wrote: »

From the JM Consulting report, initiated by the DOE:

Upgrading WIT to University status would cost " once a steady state is reached.... even (as is quite possible) if this is an underestimate, ."

You can forgive my cynicism but Government reports have a habit of massively understating the cost of any project (see Metro, Port Tunnel , WRC, Cork Airport Terminal, E voting machines, P Pars, integrated ticketing etc. etc. etc.)So a one off large capital investment followed by at bare minimum 20m PA(no doubt higher) sounds suspect,just tell me where the money comes from thats all i ask.....

invincibleirish

merlante wrote: »

Nice one bwardrop, this was the only part of his post worth responding to.

Numbers doing honours degrees are up, numbers doing ordinary and certs are down. Perfect timing for a change in focus for an institute like WIT in a national context, co-inciding with the regional requirement for university education.

The population is increasing. In the past 10 years, since NUIM was designated a university, the population has increased by about 400,000 people. The birth rate is the highest in the EU, higher than it has been in the recent past. A huge amount of non-EU students study here now as compared with the 90's. There is an increasing emphasis on upskilling and life-long education that the university and IT sectors are expected to fulfill. And oh yes, weren't be betting our future on a knowledge economy?

He continues to use the idiotic term 'university places' as if it is meaningful. What is a university place? A place in a degree or phd programme? The WIT already offers 'university places' on more or less the whole gammut of technical and applied courses. It is already competing with the universities. It should be allowed to compete across the full range of courses.

Why should the WIT be restricted in developing its third level places while the universities are given a free hand? What benefit is there to the country in stifling one region in favour of other regions?

What are you sitting on thats got you so uptight?, im tired of long posts, you're spiel is impressive but has holes in it, you know that already, you know our present Universities are best placed to capitalise on the opportunities you mentioned, why? because they've being been doing it for years, you're advocating developing a University when we have 7 already who are more then capable of doing what is needed given the right funds. the so called 4th level can be achieved by not building new faculties but by concentrating money where specialities exist already.

Whats wrong with WIT as is? instead of changing focus like you suggest let it specialise in what it does and let the Universities do what they are good at, is a BA from WIT going to be worth anything in the short term? honestly is it?we're in a time of consolidation in the 3rd level sector after years of growth, our Unis are struggling for funding as is.

Your fetish for population statistics are great, but again you are not seeing the bigger picture, lets build the primary & secondary schools that are more needed then ANY Uni upgrade then focus on expanding the tertiary sector as needs be if and when the current Unis start struggling to keep up with demand and points go crazy.

Before you go all mad and type a crazy reply go read Maoleary post instead and reply to that, i helpfully gave it a thumbs up for you to see it;).

PS the underlined part i qouted. would you relax, no one is 'stifling' anyone, your emotive language is a classic example of the parochial mindset i suggest.

bwardrop

Invincibleirish - there is a tone to your replies that is slightly arrogant. It doesn't do you any favours. I'm all for a healthy debate re: this issue, but lets keep it civil.

I quoted the above statistics in reply to the claim you made re: drop off in CAO applications. I had a feeling you were wrong about this and therefore I selected the stats to illustrate my point. There are no other stats to select - these are the figures plain and simple. I did not manipulate the data in any way.

I also looked for the figures re: numbers sitting the leaving cert, but could not find them. I think you are correct in this regard BTW - as far as I know the numbers have dropped. However, as you point out, despite this drop there has been no concomitant drop in CAO applications - they have remained buoyant. I think this lessens your Leaving Cert argument also.

As the figures I quoted illustrate, and as noticed by a previous poster, there has been an increase in the number of applications to level 8 courses and a drop in level 6 & 7 courses. WIT has maintained its portfolio of level 6 & 7 courses and also met the demand for level 8 courses - both existing and new. WIT is not aiming to change its focus as you suggest - the level 6 & 7 courses are well catered for - the new Tourism and Leisure building has just been completed which caters almost exclusively to the hospitality courses.

Now - it is too late for me to continue, so I'm off. I'll get back to this tomorrow if I get a chance - or maybe not - I'm off on holidays on Sat morning .

invincibleirish - I agree, everyone is getting a bit loquasious in this thread. Lets keep it t the point & quote some facts - I've seen little of this so far. And remember - play nice!!

merlante

maoleary wrote: »

With the economy begining to stale a bit, funding for third level will not substantially increase. UCD, TCD, UCC etc., are straining to keep within their existing budgets. While research grants are all well and good, they don't pay for new buildings or much change in the way of facilities.

I disagree with most proponents of WIT upgrade, but even if i did agree, the money is not there at the moment. And with talk of fees being reintroduced to counteract the downturn in funding (vs. inflation), I can't imagine CAO applications increasing in that case. And if they do (as has been the case recently) the universities have the capacity to take them in. So that's a moot point in the PRO camp

I think this argument is quite a poor one, both because of WIT and Dr. Port's conclusion that an upgrade would not be excessive in terms of cost, but also because we can't plan long term paying heed only to short term finances. By the time the WIT gets a green light, we will be in a different economic cycle anyhow.

The WIT are also straining to keep within their tight budgets. I don't see why the colleges you mention represent better value for money than investment in the WIT. The WIT has shown itself to be extremely innovative in the face of the lowest per student level of recurrent funding of any college in the state. The TSSG, as was mentioned, is a leading research group, and has raised sufficient funding to finanance two buildings.

maoleary wrote: »

No matter what you might say about quangos declaring Waterford, Kilkenny, Tipperary and Carlow in the southeast, Wexford and East Waterford (including the city itself) are the only ones in the southeast geographically speaking. Ask anyone outside the area, they only see Wexford as the sunny southeast.
Waterford is south (Munster south), Tipperary is central Munster, Kilkenny is West Leinster and Carlow is definitely midlands, as much as Kildare is not in the east, but midlands. The only place I've heard tell of this region is in WIT and on that heapash*te, Beat FM

Interestingly, what would a theoretical WU specialise in?

Rec Man? :pac:

This perspective that Wexford is the south east is a Dublin one, and it's wrapped up in ideas about summer holiday houses and so on. People actually live in the south east and see a more consistent geographical and political landscape than Kilkenny for stags and Wexford for holiday homes. Waterford people, if they hadn't spent some time in Dublin, would find it hard to credit that Waterford is not considered part of the sunny south east for example.

I love your use of the word 'quango'. Do you think that people spend their entire lives trying to fool and beguile 'Dublin' out of cash by inventing regions that do not exist? Very insulting if you think about it. The south east, by the way, is Waterford, Wexford, South Tipperary, Carlow and Kilkenny. Of those, only Carlow would see themselves as more aligned with Dublin that the south east.

The core of the south east is the southern 2 thirds of Wexford, Waterford, Kilkenny, and south Tipp. This is a pretty well defined area of people, most of whom would either do business in Waterford city or would keep abreast of developments there. Their kids would go there to college there for example. I think something like 40% of the workforce of Waterford city come from outside the city.

Marcus.Aurelius

merlante wrote: »

The core of the south east is the southern 2 thirds of Wexford, Waterford, Kilkenny, and south Tipp. This is a pretty well defined area of people, most of whom would either do business in Waterford city or would keep abreast of developments there. Their kids would go there to college there for example. I think something like 40% of the workforce of Waterford city come from outside the city.

Funny guy.

I'm from Wexford myself. Went to WIT for 4 years. Wexford is the sunny south east. The rest of the region as you describe is south munster and south midlands.

Honestly get over it man. I'd hate to see WIT upgraded. Its the size of it and the size of the classes that make it so appealing in the first place. If WIT researchers want better research jobs, move to a university. The thought that university staff have so much free time that they can devote themselves to research is nonsense. My supervisor in UCD is so busy, I hardly see her apart from the odd meeting. The same is true of most research leaders below the level of Associate Professor. At least in the Sciences anyway.

Oh, and by your logic, the Dublin Region encapsulates the entire country, thus, we decide who has universities and who doesn't. Ridiculous

bwardrop

maoleary wrote: »

If WIT researchers want better research jobs, move to a university. The thought that university staff have so much free time taht they can devote themselves to research is nonsense. My supervisor in UCD is so busy, I hardly see her apart from the odd meeting. The same is true of most research leaders below the level of Associate Professor. At least in the Sciences anyway.

I'm presuming this was in relation to my comments. I never suggested that lecturers in Universities have "so much free time that they can devote themselves to research". I was simply pointing out how difficult it is in an IT to carry out research with such a high teaching load. Our Dept has links with lots of Universites (in Ireland and abroad) and we carry out collaborative research - we are all aware of how busy we all are. Anyone who is any good at what they do will be busy - it is part of the reason why they are good!!

And as for suggesting that WIT should just get a job in a University... that is just narrow-minded. There is more to life than just work (family, friends, cost of living, houses, lifestyle, hobbies, etc) - why should one up root and move, leaving all this behind?

mad man

maoleary wrote: »

Funny guy.

I'm from Wexford myself. Went to WIT for 4 years. Wexford is the sunny south east. The rest of the region as you describe is south munster and south midlands.

Honestly get over it man. I'd hate to see WIT upgraded. Its the size of it and the size of the classes that make it so appealing in the first place. If WIT researchers want better research jobs, move to a university. The thought that university staff have so much free time that they can devote themselves to research is nonsense. My supervisor in UCD is so busy, I hardly see her apart from the odd meeting. The same is true of most research leaders below the level of Associate Professor. At least in the Sciences anyway.

Oh, and by your logic, the Dublin Region encapsulates the entire country, thus, we decide who has universities and who doesn't. Ridiculous

The “Sunny South East” is colloquial term and nothing else and funnily enough it isn’t “just Wexford”. It is at least Kilkenny and Waterford as well if the Bord Fáilte road signs are anything to go by. The South East Region is an administrative area defined by the Government and whose members are from the SE local authorities including Wexford. There is a broad consensus within the regional authority for the WIT with the exception of Carlow and much to their disappointment. However this is more to do with protecting Carlow IT than anything else.

http://www.iro.ie/south_east_region.html

By Merlantes logic the Dublin region doesn’t encapsulate the entire country.It was ‘t Merlante who defined the region it was the government and there was no dissent from anyone in Government or opposition in defining them in this way because the encapsulate the dynamics and characteristics of the area.

Freddie59

maoleary wrote: »

I'd hate to see WIT upgraded.

And there - encapsulated - is what separates us from the mid-West. For a college student you seem to have very little grasp on economic reality and prosperity. A pity really. I hope this attitude is not representative of your county in general.

merlante

maoleary wrote: »

Funny guy.

I'm from Wexford myself. Went to WIT for 4 years. Wexford is the sunny south east. The rest of the region as you describe is south munster and south midlands.

So what's Kilkenny then, south east midlands? Get a grip, as madman says, the south east is an administrative region, which consists of a bunch of counties that are neighbours and have a fair amount of interaction between them.

The fact that you think that the sunny south east dims somewhere over Waterford harbour or that Kilkenny, the warmest county in Ireland during the summer, is not part of it is amusing. Still, as madman says, it's a colloquial term.

maoleary wrote: »

Honestly get over it man. I'd hate to see WIT upgraded.

That's some pretty good begrudgery you got going there.

maoleary wrote: »

Its the size of it and the size of the classes that make it so appealing in the first place. If WIT researchers want better research jobs, move to a university.

The fact that many students in the south east can't afford to move away from home might also make it pretty appealing! (Although if they want to do an arts course, tough luck!)

There is first rate research going on in the WIT. This is not going to change despite the restrictive IT remit, although certainly a lot more could be done.

maoleary wrote: »

The thought that university staff have so much free time that they can devote themselves to research is nonsense. My supervisor in UCD is so busy, I hardly see her apart from the odd meeting. The same is true of most research leaders below the level of Associate Professor. At least in the Sciences anyway.

University staff typically and traditionally have time allotted for research activities. ITs haven't, traditionally, although it appears to be a WIT policy to encourage research wherever possible, despite the fact that ITs are not actually mandated to employ anybody to support research, so they're going against the grain.

The TSSG (tssg.org) is 100% european and national project funded, and is one of the largest research groups in the country, despite having no recurrent funding. It has made the WIT highly respected throughout Europe, probably more so than many of our universities.

maoleary wrote: »

Oh, and by your logic, the Dublin Region encapsulates the entire country, thus, we decide who has universities and who doesn't. Ridiculous

The Dublin region encompassed Dublin last I heard. Google regional authorities in Ireland for more information.

invincibleirish

Freddie59 wrote: »

And there - encapsulated - is what separates us from the mid-West. For a college student you seem to have very little grasp on economic reality and prosperity. A pity really. I hope this attitude is not representative of your county in general.

BS! why dont you educate us all on 'economic reality and prosperity' and how WIT is a part of it, go on, i'd love to hear your take on it....

bwardrop

invincibleirish wrote: »

BS! why dont you educate us all on 'economic reality and prosperity' and how WIT is a part of it, go on, i'd love to hear your take on it....

invincibleirish - why don't you post something to back up your opinion. You knock the vast majority of what is said in this thread, but I haven't seen any effort to produce any real facts. Freddie59's comment is no more enlightening that yours...

And as I pointed out - there is no call for the sarcasm and arrogance in your posts.

mad man

It is remarkable the amount of time invincible irish spends on the Waterford forum attempting to undermine the arguement for a University for the SE and on other threads ranting about the M9 amongst other things.All supposedly on the grounds of parochialism.When we all know that nobody does parochialism like a Cork man.Anybody care to remenber when the IDA established Louisiana Pacific in Waterford?We had the Bishop and Lord Mayor of Cork with their mealy mouths and rosary beads lobbying the IDA and government to relocate it to Cork.When WRTC was upgraded to rectify the third level deficit who was foaming at the mouth only Cork RTC. Similarly who led the applications for uprade to University status to exploit the "me too" scenario in the Port Report.Cork did?Who most vehemently opposed UL?Cork did! They scoffed at UL's application not having a chance because of their political clout.There's parochialism for you! Who sopped to parochialism by granting all the other RTC's IT status (In name only mind) but showed preferential treatment to Cork IT.Mícheal Martin did.Nobody does parochialism,clientelism and resentment like a Corkman.

Bduffman

merlante wrote: »

I never suggested taking money from other universities. I suggested that universities' slice of the pie might be 5%/6% less in the future if the WIT were upgraded than otherwise. Would it really hurt you that much to see a reprioritisation of 5%/6% away from individual colleges towards a Waterford upgrade? It certainly wouldn't hurt the country in the grievious manner you've hinted at -- and in my view would benefit the country hugely by regenerating a depressed region containing 11% of the population of the state.

I still think this is the main cause of opposition to a University in Waterford - any slight decrease in prioritorisation of the existing universities brings out the worst in them. Parochialism as its worst IMO.

invincibleirish

merlante wrote: »

The fact that many students in the south east can't afford to move away from home might also make it pretty appealing! (Although if they want to do an arts course, tough luck!)

Where are all these phantom University students?, do you have anything to back up the claim that people cannot go to University because of costs?Again you are making Waterford appear like an educational blackhole, it isnt, if you are from University and wat to go to Univeristy i doubt anything but achieving the requisite number of points will stop Waterford folk from going.

merlante wrote: »

The TSSG (tssg.org) is 100% european and national project funded, and is one of the largest research groups in the country, despite having no recurrent funding. It has made the WIT highly respected throughout Europe, probably more so than many of our universities..

the Shanghai list doesnt lie. WIT is unknown in Europe, like most Irish Universities bar TCD, again stop with your hyperbole!

merlante wrote: »

The Dublin region encompassed Dublin last I heard. Google regional authorities in Ireland for more information.

Dublins urban area encompasses Dublin and its commuter belt, that commuter belt extends into Kilkenny, Carlow & North Wexford in the mythical SE,

Google Celtic Tiger to understand the growth of the Dublin area, whilst you are googling look up the history of Shannon Airport which has received the kind of preferential treatment you seek for Waterfordand how little that helped the country.