WIT University

Traumadoc

I remember when Limerick was a NIHE, I think that WIT will become a university but it will take time.

Roanmore

From the News and Star: Asked if he could give a committment to the people of the South East that a University would be delivered he said "I will give a committment that we will come to a conclusion"

Another earth shattering statement from Bertie Ahern which means absolutely nothing. Given his recent record with profound statements I shouldn't be too surprised. Next he will be asked about next years budget and say "I can confirm we will have a budget in December".

Sully

I gathered from that statment that it will be decided soon but wont be a Uni.

Roanmore

With Bertie Ahern, that statement could mean anything and he never said when that conclusion would be, next month, next year, before the next election?

ec18

merlante wrote: »

You know what, you're right. The WIT shouldn't be upgraded because of 'parking'. Because there's no possible way that parking can be expanded alongside everything else. No, you're right, given that there are a fixed number of parking spaces handed out to the WIT by God at the beginning of time, there is no hope for expansion (not even on the new 150 acre west campus).

And what about the trees on the College st. campus? Those trees are hardly up to university standard now that I think of it. I can see now I've been peddling a farce all along!

You misunderstood the point of my post. Parking was just the easiest example to use. That at present with current facilities the institute may not be able to cope with a huge influx of students. At present in the WIT there are rarely any computers around to use unless you are timetables to use them. And at night many of the computer rooms are used for night courses, so its possible that you may not be able to use the facilities after hours either (Before anyone says anything about that for some courses the software needed is available in one or two rooms)
You mentioned the new 150 acre campus and that is great, but when is it going to be ready? I agree that the SE needs a University, but in its present state WIT would not be able to handle the expected influx of students. By all means in the future when the west campus is completed and all these problems are resolved it should be made a university. But the campaigners do not see these problems, they want it now....and now WIT is not ready.

JohnC.

Won't being given an increased status and increased funding help them solve these problems? I'd think it wouldn't happen overnight either, but they would be told "You will have university status in 3 years" or whatever, so it isn't so much the condition it is in now, but what it will be like when the time comes.

fricatus

ec18 wrote: »

You misunderstood the point of my post. Parking was just the easiest example to use. That at present with current facilities the institute may not be able to cope with a huge influx of students. At present in the WIT there are rarely any computers around to use unless you are timetables to use them. And at night many of the computer rooms are used for night courses, so its possible that you may not be able to use the facilities after hours either (Before anyone says anything about that for some courses the software needed is available in one or two rooms)
You mentioned the new 150 acre campus and that is great, but when is it going to be ready? I agree that the SE needs a University, but in its present state WIT would not be able to handle the expected influx of students. By all means in the future when the west campus is completed and all these problems are resolved it should be made a university. But the campaigners do not see these problems, they want it now....and now WIT is not ready.

ec18, I'm assuming you've never worked in any sort of organisation that's undergoing rapid change if you're thinking like that.

My experience in the work environment (I'm in IT) is that decisions are not made based on whether absolutely all the little elements necessary are in place. Generally a decision on which team will run a project or what location a service will be set up in, is determined by factors like cost, which services can afford to be dropped to make way for the new, how easy it will be to hire loads of new staff, that kind of thing. Very rarely does any analysis of the details come into it. That's left to the implementors, and it's usually done last and in a hurry. We recently moved 50 people into a building that had no parking, hot water, canteen, waste disposal, etc.

And let me tell you: if we had waited for all those things to be put in place, we'd still be waiting, and the knock-on effects on our customers (who are the ones who pay our salaries) would have become intolerable and would have hit our corporate image hard.

If we wait for perfect parking, canteen, IT services, trees etc., we'll never have a university. Those are small logistical matters in the context of the overall project, and while they should be tackled urgently, their absence should not be left get in the way of an upgrade of WIT.

ec18

fricatus wrote: »

ec18, I'm assuming you've never worked in any sort of organisation that's undergoing rapid change if you're thinking like that.

My experience in the work environment (I'm in IT) is that decisions are not made based on whether absolutely all the little elements necessary are in place. Generally a decision on which team will run a project or what location a service will be set up in, is determined by factors like cost, which services can afford to be dropped to make way for the new, how easy it will be to hire loads of new staff, that kind of thing. Very rarely does any analysis of the details come into it. That's left to the implementors, and it's usually done last and in a hurry. We recently moved 50 people into a building that had no parking, hot water, canteen, waste disposal, etc.

And let me tell you: if we had waited for all those things to be put in place, we'd still be waiting, and the knock-on effects on our customers (who are the ones who pay our salaries) would have become intolerable and would have hit our corporate image hard.

If we wait for perfect parking, canteen, IT services, trees etc., we'll never have a university. Those are small logistical matters in the context of the overall project, and while they should be tackled urgently, their absence should not be left get in the way of an upgrade of WIT.

I'm sure the surronding residents of WIT feel the same as you as well....we are not talking about a private company that is scared of losing profits and disappointing customers. It's a government institution that is providing a serviceand as such is probably operating at a loss but either way the lecturers get paid. A simple question can everybody arguing that WIT needs to be upgraded now honestly say that the COURSES offered and taught if it gets upgraded will be vastly superior to the ones offered now?

fricatus

ec18 wrote: »

I'm sure the surronding residents of WIT feel the same as you as well....we are not talking about a private company that is scared of losing profits and disappointing customers. It's a government institution that is providing a serviceand as such is probably operating at a loss but either way the lecturers get paid. A simple question can everybody arguing that WIT needs to be upgraded now honestly say that the COURSES offered and taught if it gets upgraded will be vastly superior to the ones offered now?

You're missing my point completely here, so let me make it again: if you waited for everything to be perfect, you'd do nothing.

Let me switch example: would you keep putting off your wedding, having children or buying a new car because you couldn't afford it all out of your savings? Of course not. You'd borrow and deal with the fallout afterwards.

The principle applies just as much to upgrading educational institutions as it does to private enterprise or one's personal life.

jmcc

Waterford needs a university.
When Waterford gets a university, the other universities will suffer from lower intakes.
This will hit Galway and Limerick because of their overlapping cachement area.
It may also affect Cork to a greater extent.

No wonder the scum in Dublin don't want to give Waterford a university.

Regards...jmcc

stick-dan

As said by fricatus.
You're missing my point completely here, so let me make it again: if you waited for everything to be perfect, you'd do nothing.

Let me switch example: would you keep putting off your wedding, having children or buying a new car because you couldn't afford it all out of your savings? Of course not. You'd borrow and deal with the fallout afterwards.

The principle applies just as much to upgrading educational institutions as it does to private enterprise or one's personal life.

Are you Actually in the college at the moment because i am as is ec18. We both encountered two different major mess-ups this year so far in conjunction with the college and that's only this year. It is stupid for you to be insisting that ec18 means that we can't be upgrading the college due to the canteen or paint. We are not that fickle. The college is not ready at the moment.As was said earlier in the thread the cork road campus would not be capable to cope with a large influx of would be university students if WIT was granted university status right now.

I think that we all can agree in the future when carrignore is fully developed and offering full facilities out their it then will be the appropriate time to be pushing for university status. There is no point in pushing for university status now. We are not ready for it and would not be able to cope with it. Give it maybe 5 years, Centre the heartbeat of WIT in Carrignore maybe and then push for University Status. Then the SE will have a university it will be truly proud of. Give it time and don't rush it.WIT is not ready now!

merlante

First off Sully, I won't make things personal, but this is worth getting upset about. It is vitally important for the institute's future, the city and region that the WIT gets upgraded. This decision may even play a big part in the lives of those who are posting here, whether they realise it or not. We have an opportunity, that is still on the table, that may not come back again any time soon.

There have been a lot of posts to the effect that the WIT is limited in such and such a way, and therefore it is unready to be upgraded. Fricatus hit the nail on the head: you make a strategic decision, and then you follow up. You don't begin by aimlessly ticking a thousand little boxes until you wake up one day and find that the names have changed on all the signs. That is not the way it works in business or in the public sector.

Waterford and the south east require a university as soon as possible in order to compete with the other regions and for all of the other reasons that have been given. The case would be a compelling one whether there was a WIT to upgrade or a hole in the ground. Now it just so happens that we have an IT, which, despite having the scope and funding on an IT, is functioning somewhere between an IT and a university. We have met the government more than half way already.

The way you make it perform as a university is by upgrading it. There are a huge number of things that will improve overnight. The status of university will buy increased student numbers, more competition for staff positions, easier access to research funding, more international prestige, etc., etc. There are other things that the status change will not accomplish; these will have to be ironed out in time. But the focus and drive toward a university will likely mean that these issues will also be sorted out efficiently.

What people have to understand is that even if everything was signed off tomorrow, it would take years for the WIT to be upgraded. Years. Easily enough time to fix up any of the fecky little 'problem of the month' issues like the lack of parking, or old computer facilities, or whatever. We need everyone to be pulling in the same direction to make this happen. What we don't need are people coming up with all these extra road blocks, which can easily be sorted down the line whether the decision to upgrade is made or not.

Fricatus is dead right in that the upgrade would drive these improvements, but the improvements, made in isolation over time, will not necessarily drive the upgrade.

ec18

Again I ask the question would upgrading WIT significantly improve the quality of the teaching? why?....(I mean in practice not due to more research money)

Sully

Sources in the college agreed only recently they feel its not ready for an upgrade yet. Half of Tramore and Waterford seem to be teaching in WIT, or have some sort of job in there. As one person went as far to say "The college is run by thickos". Parents and students are fed up of having the stress on a busy college schedule due to continuous college problems. Its a great college, offers good courses and a great campus to students. Its after growing big time and continues to grow. Is it ready? I personally don't think so. Will things improve? More money probably means they can offer more services and add more buildings and courses. Will it fix the internal mess ups that are not just a "problem of the month" and "happen to every college, IT or University"? Will several years be the required time to fix out all these problems and prepare itself for the running with the big boys?

Maybe we feel different since we bare the brunt of the stress of everyday college life in WIT - not cause we have tough courses, but cause the college is a shambles and is continuously running into problems. Its something like seven million in debt. The rest of the problems you will all consider minor, as outsiders, but the students don't agree.

Its a tough one that has people divided...

merlante

ec18 wrote: »

Again I ask the question would upgrading WIT significantly improve the quality of the teaching? why?....(I mean in practice not due to more research money)

More money plus more prestige equals more competition for the best lecturers available, and the funds to buy in and head hunt world class academics. Add to that the research expertise that they bring with them, the additional funding and scope for research, and you have lecturers who can introduce students into cutting edge fields, and who are in a position to offer more postgraduate and research opportunities.

Basically, the same reasons that Harvard has better lecturers (presumably) than DCU, or some Irish universities (presumably) over the WIT.

You don't genetically breed better lecturers or administrators in a lab, you attract them with prestige and cash.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Is it ready? I personally don't think so. Will things improve? More money probably means they can offer more services and add more buildings and courses. Will it fix the internal mess ups that are not just a "problem of the month" and "happen to every college, IT or University"? Will several years be the required time to fix out all these problems and prepare itself for the running with the big boys?

I attended a certain university, which was at the time relatively new, and the campus was a building site for the entire time I was there, and people had many complaints about bad administration, bad organisation, certain aspects being a sham, etc., etc., but I'm sure that the students that are there now are attending a college that is 10 times the place it was when I started. (When I started it wasn't too far ahead of the WIT now and maybe behind in a few respects.)

Which do you think is better? To sort the problems while planning an upgrade to university, or to delay an upgrade -- which may not be on the table in the future -- until all the problems are solved.

Which approach do you think is likely to work best politically?

Sully wrote: »

Its a tough one that has people divided...

The divide should be between the people of the south east and the people outside of the south east (with the opposite vested interest). Regardless of how many bad experiences you have had in the WIT, I'm sorry, but the whole region needs the upgrade now for the greater good. There is a lot more at stake than exposing the student body to a period of uncomfortably rapid change. There is a window of opportunity that has to be seized.

And once again, the upgrade will take *years*, it will not happen overnight anyway. The process needs to start now.

AdMMM

Sully wrote:

Sources in the college agreed only recently they feel its not ready for an upgrade yet.

If you're trying to make a point, you're doing a bad job of it - your "source" could very well be an overheard conversation between two people in the canteen.

stick-dan wrote:

The college is not ready at the moment.As was said earlier in the thread the cork road campus would not be capable to cope with a large influx of would be university students if WIT was granted university status right now.

I don't mean to offend but that is shockingly bad point. The CAO system is there for a reason - it ensures that a quota of allocated places for each course is met. University status would certainly create more demand for places, which would see courses rise in points but only because the courses would initially be the same size until further campus expansion allowed them to increase places available in courses. In no way would there be an influx of more students, just an influx of higher scoring students.

ec18 wrote:

Again I ask the question would upgrading WIT significantly improve the quality of the teaching? why?

Many of the current teaching staff are employed on a part time (i.e short term contract) basis which is far from ideal if there's expected to be a consistent level of tuition offered to students. University status would open up more funding and allow the college to attract top class lecturers worthy of tenure rather than post-grads who see lecturing as a means to an end.

stick-dan wrote:

Give it maybe 5 years, Centre the heartbeat of WIT in Carrignore maybe and then push for University Status.

Time is of the essense. Reports on the economic development of the region regularly refer to the brain drain in the South East i.e only a fraction of the students who travel to universities end up working back in the South East which has detrimental consequences for the region. Time is not a luxury we can afford to waste if we want Waterford City to be thought of as being on the same (if not higher) level than Galway and Limerick.

Sully wrote:

The problems everyone complains about are common in ITs

Sully wrote:

Maybe we feel different since we bare the brunt of the stress of everyday college life in WIT - not cause we have tough courses, but cause the college is a shambles and is continuously running into problems.

You will find people in every third level institution complaining about their college being a shambles. WIT may be the only college I will ever attend but in considering my options I can honestly say that I researched every college in Ireland which had courses that appealed to me. I went to almost all of the open days and made certain to talk to the relevant people about college life, course content and the quality of the college. I also have friends attending every university in Ireland (with the exception of NUIG) who regularly complain about having 5 minutes to trek across one side of a campus to another, a task that takes at least 15 minutes. You speak as if WIT isn't ready, but if I was to adopt your thinking and combine it with complaints that I've heard, then I would be the first to say that UCC and UL (to name just two) aren't worthy

ec18

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

Many of the current teaching staff are employed on a part time (i.e short term contract) basis which is far from ideal if there's expected to be a consistent level of tuition offered to students. University status would open up more funding and allow the college to attract top class lecturers worthy of tenure rather than post-grads who see lecturing as a means to an end.

Thanks thats the type of answer I wanted not some rant about development in the SE or more research money....simple reason as to why university status wold benefit the students.

@merlante annoying the student body is not the best way to start off being a university
interesting editorial here especially the last part

stick-dan

Ah sure here Tell you what lets end this argument and make carlow the University in the south east. But wait you'll all say that it's not good enough to be a university with regard to if carlow was to make an application to be a university. Sorry if this seems off topic but it will lead back to it in a few. Carlow had its main campus and its Wexford side campus which is better than Waterford's second one i.e college Street. Carlow and wit offer a wide range of courses that are very similar and of the same caliber albeit WIT may have a few extra on offer. carlow even has its own aeroplane for aeronotical student for crying out loud. It may not have the student population of WIT nor near as many computers but a close friend of mine attended WIT last year and switched to continue his course in carlow for family reasons and he says that there is little or no difference between the education received in the two. So let's push for Carlow if that be the case. So go ahead and rule that out straight away and then think of what a student attending the two college's has said, "They are not that different". So as would happen if carlow did make a bid it would be immediately rejected so why shouldn't WIT. let's ask the question that should have been asked in this thread,

WHY SHOULD WIT BE A UNIVERSITY?

Nolanger

Carlow offers a degree in Computer Games Development - one of the few high profile industries that's under-developed in this country.
And it has a more central location in the South East for the surrounding counties.

Traumadoc

jmcc wrote: »

No wonder the scum in Dublin don't want to give Waterford a university.

Regards...jmcc

With attitude like that Im sure Waterford wont have any trouble attracting people from the Dublin area (1.5 million people).

Sully

People are making very strong and interesting points. I think those who are saying we shouldn't get uni are saying its to soon. I personally feel Waterford deserves a University Status and it would be great for Waterford and the South East without a doubt. Waterford offers more compared to Carlow, IT wise and Location wise. The question we are asking ourselves is, while we deserve it are we ready? Are we prepared? I know people say it will take many years before we are actually upgraded, but does this time allow for WIT to get prepared?

ec18

Nolanger wrote: »

Carlow offers a degree in Computer Games Development - one of the few high profile industries that's under-developed in this country.
And it has a more central location in the South East for the surrounding counties.

WIT currently have a Games Design and development degree in development

stick-dan

Nolanger wrote: »

Carlow offers a degree in Computer Games Development - one of the few high profile industries that's under-developed in this country.
And it has a more central location in the South East for the surrounding counties.

Here here change this thread name to Carlow Uni lol...


Carlow is more central and with the new motorway would be rather easily accessible.

Amazotheamazing

This thread shows why the regions are so poorly run.

No one has bothered to ask if Ireland, a small country of limited resources, needs another University, but rather, there's outrage that Waterford might slip behind Galway and Limerick. The argument has nothing to do with academic standards and everything to do with parochialism.

If the Government were to decide tomorrow to give Carlow or Kilkenny a university, suddenly, the argument wouldn't be that the South-East needs a university, but rather that Waterford alone needs a university.

We'd (as in Irish taxpayers) would be better off insisting that the existing universities are brought up to a higher standard, rather than demanding that the Southeast gets a university.

That's not to knock Waterford, or WIT, but frankly, the question isn't whether Waterford needs a university, after all, it's hard to argue it would be a bad addition to any town/city, but rather does Ireland need another university?

All the arguments made in favour of the university could be applied to Athlone or Letterkenny. The fact is, all the regional cities, Cork, Galway and Limerick, as well as Waterford suffer a brain drain towards Dublin.

merlante

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

This thread shows why the regions are so poorly run.

No one has bothered to ask if Ireland, a small country of limited resources, needs another University, but rather, there's outrage that Waterford might slip behind Galway and Limerick. The argument has nothing to do with academic standards and everything to do with parochialism.

The reason nobody has bothered to ask is because the debate has been centred around whether the city/region needs a university. The reason for this, is that you are on a Waterford city board! If this debate were happening on an all-Ireland Education board, it would be an entirely different debate.

Whenever I hear someone from Dublin come out with words such as the 'regions' or 'parochialism' I know I am in for the usual argument about such and such a place not thinking of the greater good, but only their own interests. What you fail to understand is that at every level people are concerned with 'parochial' interests. One parish competes with its neighbour, Waterford competes with Galway, Dublin competes with other capitals, Ireland competes with other countries. Within each context people become very parochial, and to an extent, rightly so.

I don't hear any arguments suggesting that extremely specialist care units in Dublin should be centralised to London so that they might be provided more efficiently. When the IFSC was set up, I doubt anyone asked, "does the British isles *need* another financial services centre?" That would be ridiculous because as a country we have our own legitimate, 'parochial' ambition, and one of the things we demand in particular is equality of service provision with other countries, or regions of countries.

What Waterford and the south east seeks is parity of education provision to the other regions. This is a legitimate ambition of the region. If there is a university in every other populous region and regional capital in Ireland, and Waterford and the south east is the single, obvious exception to what we could loosely call a national strategy, then there would want to be a damn good reason not to establish a university in the south east.

I have heard a lot of arguments that establishing another university in the south east would be (somehow) one too many universities. As if anyone has done any analysis of how many is 'enough', or what the magic number is. The people who are saying this, funnily enough, are vested interests from the university establishment in the other cities who are well aware of what the increased competition would mean for their institution. I have also heard vague talk about needing to centralise our research spend further (world class universities argument), and therefore one more university would somehow be a disaster. The clear solution here would be to establish a university in the south east, and begin to merge universities over time to achieve economies of scale and critical mass without affecting the geographical distribution of university education and research investment.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If the Government were to decide tomorrow to give Carlow or Kilkenny a university, suddenly, the argument wouldn't be that the South-East needs a university, but rather that Waterford alone needs a university.

This is total garbage. Universities for populations of a half million people is consistent with what we've been doing in Ireland, and also in the smaller scandinavian countries, which have similar populations, low population densities and somewhat similar urban structures.

There are 460,000 people in the south east, and that figure is growing at almost 10% every 5 years. The West and Midwest, which have universities, are smaller regions.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

We'd (as in Irish taxpayers) would be better off insisting that the existing universities are brought up to a higher standard, rather than demanding that the Southeast gets a university.

We're Irish tax payers as well. Why does this fact so often escape people making these sort of arguments? 12% of the country live in the south east. Waterford is a gateway in the 'national' spatial strategy. If the region receives parity of educational investment it will be consolidated as a driver of economic growth and will help relieve the pressure on Dublin.

If there needs to be rationalisation in the university sector, and despite how often this is said there has been no real analysis backing this up, rationalisation is university administration (as in merging universities and reducing administration) would be far more beneficial than geographical rationalisation, i.e. chop off the south east and let it die.

You may not be aware that the lack of a university in the south east has numerous negative consequences for the country as a whole, e.g. more people in Waterford city on social welfare than in Galway city, despite Galway being 40% larger; a significantly lower percentage of degree holders in the south east, which is 12% of the national population, and so on. To a certain extent, the government will need to hand feed the south east as a going concern if it cannot stand on its own two feet and actually contribute to the national economy. A university is essential if the south east is to prosper.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

That's not to knock Waterford, or WIT, but frankly, the question isn't whether Waterford needs a university, after all, it's hard to argue it would be a bad addition to any town/city, but rather does Ireland need another university?

The south east is 'Ireland' too.

Essentially what we could get into here is a centralisation versus decentralisation debate, where I argue for decentralisation because it offers consistent and fair coverage of university education across the country, and you argue centralisation on the basis that more money spread between fewer institutions helps build critical mass and helps Irish universities compete nationally. It's largely, though not entirely, an argument of social equity versus economics. (Although there are economic benefits to the country of establishing a university in the south east, such as the reduced costs to the state (grants) and to the family of displacing students from the south east to other regions for 4 years.)

This argument has not been won, it hasn't even really been argued. The report by independent, UK expert Dr. Port on the application is due out soon. Let's see what he says.

Also, as I said earlier, we need administrative rationalisation not geographic rationalisation.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

All the arguments made in favour of the university could be applied to Athlone or Letterkenny. The fact is, all the regional cities, Cork, Galway and Limerick, as well as Waterford suffer a brain drain towards Dublin.

Athlone and Letterkenny are small towns situated in sparsely populated regions, whose recent growth is probably already putting severe pressure on infrastructure and whose significance in the national spatial strategy are not so immediate.

Realistically, there will only ever be one more genuine candidate for a new university in Ireland. The other ITs would all try to follow suit, of course, but there is only one IT with the demographic justification for an upgrade.

Besides, if you wanted to be brutal, the correct decision would be to upgrade and invest in the WIT at the expense of NUI Maynooth, which is a smaller institution and of less strategic importance in a national context.

Amazotheamazing

merlante wrote: »

The reason nobody has bothered to ask is because the debate has been centred around whether the city/region needs a university. The reason for this, is that you are on a Waterford city board! If this debate were happening on an all-Ireland Education board, it would be an entirely different debate.

Whenever I hear someone from Dublin come out with words such as the 'regions' or 'parochialism' I know I am in for the usual argument about such and such a place not thinking of the greater good, but only their own interests. What you fail to understand is that at every level people are concerned with 'parochial' interests. One parish competes with its neighbour, Waterford competes with Galway, Dublin competes with other capitals, Ireland competes with other countries. Within each context people become very parochial, and to an extent, rightly so.

I don't hear any arguments suggesting that extremely specialist care units in Dublin should be centralised to London so that they might be provided more efficiently. When the IFSC was set up, I doubt anyone asked, "does the British isles *need* another financial services centre?" That would be ridiculous because as a country we have our own legitimate, 'parochial' ambition, and one of the things we demand in particular is equality of service provision with other countries, or regions of countries.

What Waterford and the south east seeks is parity of education provision to the other regions. This is a legitimate ambition of the region. If there is a university in every other populous region and regional capital in Ireland, and Waterford and the south east is the single, obvious exception to what we could loosely call a national strategy, then there would want to be a damn good reason not to establish a university in the south east.

I have heard a lot of arguments that establishing another university in the south east would be (somehow) one too many universities. As if anyone has done any analysis of how many is 'enough', or what the magic number is. The people who are saying this, funnily enough, are vested interests from the university establishment in the other cities who are well aware of what the increased competition would mean for their institution. I have also heard vague talk about needing to centralise our research spend further (world class universities argument), and therefore one more university would somehow be a disaster. The clear solution here would be to establish a university in the south east, and begin to merge universities over time to achieve economies of scale and critical mass without affecting the geographical distribution of university education and research investment.



This is total garbage. Universities for populations of a half million people is consistent with what we've been doing in Ireland, and also in the smaller scandinavian countries, which have similar populations, low population densities and somewhat similar urban structures.

There are 460,000 people in the south east, and that figure is growing at almost 10% every 5 years. The West and Midwest, which have universities, are smaller regions.



We're Irish tax payers as well. Why does this fact so often escape people making these sort of arguments? 12% of the country live in the south east. Waterford is a gateway in the 'national' spatial strategy. If the region receives parity of educational investment it will be consolidated as a driver of economic growth and will help relieve the pressure on Dublin.

If there needs to be rationalisation in the university sector, and despite how often this is said there has been no real analysis backing this up, rationalisation is university administration (as in merging universities and reducing administration) would be far more beneficial than geographical rationalisation, i.e. chop off the south east and let it die.

You may not be aware that the lack of a university in the south east has numerous negative consequences for the country as a whole, e.g. more people in Waterford city on social welfare than in Galway city, despite Galway being 40% larger; a significantly lower percentage of degree holders in the south east, which is 12% of the national population, and so on. To a certain extent, the government will need to hand feed the south east as a going concern if it cannot stand on its own two feet and actually contribute to the national economy. A university is essential if the south east is to prosper.



The south east is 'Ireland' too.

Essentially what we could get into here is a centralisation versus decentralisation debate, where I argue for decentralisation because it offers consistent and fair coverage of university education across the country, and you argue centralisation on the basis that more money spread between fewer institutions helps build critical mass and helps Irish universities compete nationally. It's largely, though not entirely, an argument of social equity versus economics. (Although there are economic benefits to the country of establishing a university in the south east, such as the reduced costs to the state (grants) and to the family of displacing students from the south east to other regions for 4 years.)

This argument has not been won, it hasn't even really been argued. The report by independent, UK expert Dr. Port on the application is due out soon. Let's see what he says.

Also, as I said earlier, we need administrative rationalisation not geographic rationalisation.



Athlone and Letterkenny are small towns situated in sparsely populated regions, whose recent growth is probably already putting severe pressure on infrastructure and whose significance in the national spatial strategy are not so immediate.

Realistically, there will only ever be one more genuine candidate for a new university in Ireland. The other ITs would all try to follow suit, of course, but there is only one IT with the demographic justification for an upgrade.

Besides, if you wanted to be brutal, the correct decision would be to upgrade and invest in the WIT at the expense of NUI Maynooth, which is a smaller institution and of less strategic importance in a national context.

A nice, detailed, informative reply that totally misses the point, does Ireland actually need another university? To me, all you've pointed out is that, shock horror, it would be handy for Waterford to have one. Great, but does Ireland (the large green thing that Waterford is part of) actually need one?

merlante

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

A nice, detailed, informative reply that totally misses the point, does Ireland actually need another university? To me, all you've pointed out is that, shock horror, it would be handy for Waterford to have one. Great, but does Ireland (the large green thing that Waterford is part of) actually need one?

I didn't miss the point at all, I just answered the question in terms you aren't bothered considering.

In the context of the south east needing a university, I might equally ask you 'what is so disastrous about 8 universities rather than 7?' (When with 7 universities a large swathe of the country has limited access to university education and suffers with respect to other regions on any socio-economic scale you care to mention.)

It's very convenient for us to miss each other's point when we disagree.

ec18

you are avoiding the question of whether Ireland needs another university...Would a universtiy in waterford really open the proverbial floodgates to those who are missing out....part of the appeal of universities and third level education is leaving home, out of the 10,000+ plus full time students how many of them are from waterford?

Amazotheamazing

merlante wrote: »

I didn't miss the point at all, I just answered the question in terms you aren't bothered considering.

In the context of the south east needing a university, I might equally ask you 'what is so disastrous about 8 universities rather than 7?' (When with 7 universities a large swathe of the country has limited access to university education and suffers with respect to other regions on any socio-economic scale you care to mention.)

It's very convenient for us to miss each other's point when we disagree.

Ok, I'll spell it out, the reason Ireland doesn't need another university is because we have too many as it. Another university would further compromise the standard of the universities in Ireland (as someone pointed out, only Trinity is a "rated" university). It's nothing to do with the universities being anti-Waterford and everything to do with the university sector trying to stop the continual "dumbing down" of Irish third level institutions.

I don't see how you're struggling to understand this concept.