Child discipline . Smacking - Yea or Nay

Dudess

sueme wrote: »

I think you'll find he did Dudess.

Nah, don't think I'm his type

On topic: you said he recommended you foster your child out to someone who'd follow his line of disciplining - i.e. beating them. Come on now, you know that's nonsense. There isn't a post on this thread where he says he agrees with beating children. And while you don't differentiate between a tiny slap and a beating, he does. And I do. And I think it's frankly wrong of you not to acknowledge the difference when there are kids as we speak getting beaten to a pulp by their parents, resulting in bruises and fractured and broken bones. If those kids could be snatched from such "homes" and brought to warm, loving homes where the odd tiny slap is the only punishment they'd receive as the absolute last resort if they were being really, really badly behaved, would you have a problem?

TequilaMockingBird

Dudess wrote: »

Nah, don't think I'm his type

On topic: you said he recommended you foster your child out to someone who'd follow his line of disciplining - i.e. beating them. Come on now, you know that's nonsense. There isn't a post on this thread where he says he agrees with beating children. And while you don't differentiate between a tiny slap and a beating, he does. And I do. And I think it's frankly wrong of you not to acknowledge the difference when there are kids as we speak getting beaten to a pulp by their parents, resulting in bruises and fractured and broken bones. If those kids could be snatched from such "homes" and brought to warm, loving homes where the odd tiny slap is the only punishment they'd receive as the absolute last resort if they were being really, really badly behaved, would you have a problem?

Try and read the previous posts there Dudess.

Dudess

I did. Careful now with the sniping...

Pighead

sueme you're still here banging on about this slapping nonsense! Have you no kids to mind?

Can somebody give Mammy sueme a call and tell her to go around to her daughters house and give her a good slap on the arse. Shes annoying the internet people.

Catari Jaguar

Thaedydal wrote: »

The things is while people may no longer physically discipline thier children a lot of them dont' know how to discipline them at all.

They are lacking in parenting skills due to the fact thier parents did smack them as punishment and you have a lot of brats being brought up as the result.

More modren type of parenting are about setting up a system and laying down ground rules with kids and listening to them and catching a situation before it blows up and someone just don't know how to do this or don't have the time.

There should be mandatory parenting classes for everyone that has a child and they should be done while the child is 3.

I 100% agree with you, and with Faceman

Niamho!

Saint_Mel wrote: »

I agree with Stephen. No harm in reddening the arse of a bold child but not a beating them.
That was the way I was brought up and it did me no harm. Some kids get away with murder because the never get disiciplined and they dont know any different

Agreed. far too many little Scumbags in the making and you can be damn sure they dont get a smack every now and again.
My mam never went far with the slapping but i used to fear the slaps. it was enough to put me off being too bold.

Catari Jaguar

snyper wrote: »

So will shouting.

Or even a calm, firm "No!" or "Stop".

You can let them know whats what without being violent or scary. And for everyone saying modern methods of discipline are for hippies or are "softly softly" letting kids away with murder, are wrong. Maybe try them before you criticise eh?

Dudess

The point is, I'm sure reasonable, loving parents DO try them... and on the occasions where these methods simply don't work and they're blue in the face with frustration, they go to Plan B - the last resort. They hardly WANT to do it, and I'm sure they feel sh*t afterwards.

To dismiss someone as a bad parent on the basis of something like the above is frankly very ignorant. And really, when some of the people making such statements aren't even parents themselves, it's taking being judgemental a bit too far.

Pherekydes

sueme wrote: »

I find your modding skills nonsense, and borderline trolling and I wish you would keep your contributions somewhat constructive Dudess.

This is no longer borderline trolling anymore, Dudess.

AckwelFoley

I said it before, i would not at all say that a parent that smacks their child on the bum are bad parents certainly not.

But if Method "A" does not work i feel that its not being done properly and perhaps smacking them will be futile

Im hoping this thread wont go down the personal insults route. Its my thread and my e-penis is growing with every post

TequilaMockingBird

Anyone know what an "Infraction" is? Is it some type of child rearing punishment?

Whatever, I'm done.

Nevyn

You always end up with people in the middle ground making everyone else to be extremists
it's the exact same patterns I have seen time and again when this is raised in the parenting forum.

A light slap on the back of the hand or leg it not beating a child.
The beating of children is not to be tolerated.
Taking anger or frusttation out on a child esp in an agressive manner is not to be tolerated.
The temperment of the child had to be taken into consideration as well.

Yes ideally all parents should be to rear, disapine and teach thier children respect and boundaries with out resorting to smacking, but there are times when they are between 3 and 4 I think it can be needed.

Personally I find mental cruelity and emotional blackmail to be far better deterants.

Pherekydes

sueme wrote: »

Anyone know what an "Infraction" is? Is it some type of child rearing punishment?

Whatever, I'm done.

It's a warning. You know what comes next...

AckwelFoley

Slow coach wrote: »

It's a warning. You know what comes next...

.. a second one?

...i know.. its a marker to where the bann hammer is going to strike next

Nevyn

They are penalty points for the site, get enough of them and you get automatically site banned until they expire.

Pherekydes

snyper wrote: »

.. a second one?

...i know.. its a marker to where the bann hammer is going to strike next

Not at all. Just a good hard (but loving) slap.

TequilaMockingBird

Slow coach wrote: »

Not at all. Just a good hard (but loving) slap.

The naughty step for you my boy.

thelordofcheese

Thaedydal wrote: »

They are penalty points for the site, get enough of them and you get automatically site banned until they expire.

Off topic, i know, but can you see how many infractions you have somewhere on boards?

On topic.
people who are anti smacking seem to equate it with "abuse" or "assault" or some such nonsense.
It's not a smack is a smack, it's not abuse or assault.
Saying stuff like "where do you draw the line" and "how much is a smack" aren't valid points, it's just trying to claim that because you can't define a concrete rule for when smacking should be applied, which is impossible anyway because each situation and child is different, therefore it's barbaric.

faceman

thelordofcheese wrote: »

people who are anti smacking seem to equate it with "abuse" or "assault" or some such nonsense.
It's not a smack is a smack, it's not abuse or assault.
Saying stuff like "where do you draw the line" and "how much is a smack" aren't valid points, it's just trying to claim that because you can't define a concrete rule for when smacking should be applied, which is impossible anyway because each situation and child is different, therefore it's barbaric.

Smacking a child is a form of violence irregardless of what force is used. Its physical punishment. We dont punish criminals with physical punishment, yet its ok to do so to children.

I dont really think it matters how you define what level of force is or isnt acceptable. Its unacceptable to strike an adult with any level of force and you can be charged for assault or attempted assault so why is it acceptable to strike a child?

I dont find it acceptable to strike a child just because someone says "it did no harm to me". That doesnt make it right.

Slidey

People are being irrational really
A freind of mine has a child and when he comes back from his father after the weekend he can be a little unruly, the mother gives ample warnings and they normally work but if not a slap on the arse is administered, it is not hard and the child is still in nappies so it def doesn't even hurt, but it is very effective. The wee lad normally starts crying with the shock of it and runs away to sulk for a min or 2 but somes back with an 'im sowwy' pretty quickly

Terry

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Off topic, i know, but can you see how many infractions you have somewhere on boards?

I'm not sure if you can see your own infractions if you are not a mod. I know that you can't see infractions that others have recieved.

Mods can see all infractions given.

You have none.

On topic; folks can you please keep the bickering to a minimum.
Nobody here is kicking the crap out of any kids. Calm down a bit.
You are all entitled to an opinion on this. Please respect the opinions of others.
Thanks.

Actually, respect is probably the wrong word here.

Please tolerate the opinions of others.
That's the one.

Dudess

Terry wrote: »

Mods can see all infractions given.

You have none.

Fuppin' teacher's pet...

Wertz

faceman wrote: »

Smacking a child is a form of violence irregardless of what force is used. Its physical punishment. We dont punish criminals with physical punishment, yet its ok to do so to children.

We don't now, but we used to and some supposedly less "civilised" societies still do. In their day they were perhaps more of a deterrent than incarceration and restriction of freedom, then we got all messed up with things like human rights and for the West at least, went down the route of banning physical punishment. It would be interesting to see comparitve crime figures under th two systems...imagine the drop in anti-social behaviour and petty crime if punishments like public floggings were still doled out instead of community service and probation.

The same thing is happening now with the attempted outlawing of physical punishment for children...some one mentioned above that we end up with a whole generation primarily consisting of a bunch of teens and young adults with absolutely no fear or respect of the laws of the land...a generalistaion perhaps, but we're certainly seeing this scenario starting to take hold in the last few decades (IMO)...and personally I think that is directly due to the outlawing of corporal punishment in the 80's (which I don't particularly agree with, but it seemed to work, but was ultimately flawed and open to abuse) and the legacy of a bunch of children who grew up without learning boundaries, then had their own kids and didn't instill boundaries upon them.

We'll all reap what the liberal minority would have us sow.

Terry

Well said, Wertz.

I remember being in junior infants and corporal punishment was still legal.
I was called to the principals office one day. Can't remember what I did, but obviously I was playing up.
I was there with two of my neighbours who were in senior infants.
They were first to get the cane across the back of their hands.
One of them kept pulling his hand out of the way whenever he was about to be hit, which was quite funny (Mincer for those from Leixlip).

Anyway, I got the cane and I behaved myself right up until 4th class.

My first class teacher used to punch me in the arm and regularly knocked me out of my chair.
That was too far.
My two extremely well built cousins paid him a visit and that was the end of me being hit.
He still punched a couple of the other kids. A lot of the time for no reason at all.

Rb

OT but any user can see their own infractions by looking at their profile

Example

DeVore

Sorry but adults who reepeatedly break societies laws ARE physically punished. They are physically restrained in a room for up to the rest of their lives. They are physically removed from wherever they are and if they resist then appropriate force can be used to FORCE their compliance.

While I disagree with slapping kids (it isnt a hanging offence imho, but it should be viewed as a "failure" by the parents), I do think that kids now have so many rights etc that they cannot even be forcibly removed from class rooms or restrained from doing something. This leads to the situation whereby when they turn 18 the look of shock on their faces when a guard puts their hand on them must be a sight to see!

Additionally, the logic used by both sides is appaling here. Firstly we have the "one slap leads to baseball bats" which is silly. We are capable of deciding a point at which a slap becomes abuse. We do that for many other considerations in law.

Secondly there is the "I was slapped and it did me no harm" and the equally inane "I was (or knew someone) who was beaten with a car" arguements.
In the first case, a single point of data does nothing to (dis)prove an argument. Nor does drawing parallels between two different things ("reasonable chastisement" and "outright abuse") allow you to draw parallels between the outcomes thereof.

Sueme, I would broadly agree with you but I would find it almost impossible to support you due to the shrew-like, shrill manner by which you make your points, the way you seem to deliberately drive everything to an extreme to support your position and frankly you're attitude when corrected. Ironic or what.

DeV.

Dudess

DeVore wrote: »

...slapping kids (it isnt a hanging offence imho, but it should be viewed as a "failure" by the parents

I wouldn't agree with that in every case, but yes, I see how an otherwise reasonable parent resorting to slapping has failed as a parent in that particular instance. But yep, it does not make them a failure as a parent, and it would be a crazy generalisation to say it does. It means my mum is a failure as a parent, which is laughable really.
To be honest, it was my mum who did the little bit of slapping and my dad didn't, and yet I would consider my mum to have been more suited to parenting. Don't get me wrong, but my dad could be a very cold, distant, moody man and he didn't always find it easy to bond with us when we were kids, nor could we him.

ghouldaddy07

parents should be able to slap a child on the arse or hand or whatever but how can you legislate somthing like that for the parents that go to far and beat their kids.

now to karate chop some infants

TequilaMockingBird

DeVore wrote: »

Sueme, I would broadly agree with you .

Thank you.

DeVore wrote: »

but I would find it almost impossible to support you due to the shrew-like, shrill manner by which you make your points, .

Em.. where? If I come across as shrew-like and shrill I'm sorry.

DeVore wrote: »

the way you seem to deliberately drive everything to an extreme to support your position.

I am not the only one bringing scenarios to the extreme, this is a point of the discussion, what will happen if I do/do not strike my child..?[/QUOTE]

DeVore wrote: »

and frankly you're attitude when corrected. Ironic or what. DeV.

To be honest I find being corrected by Dudess very childish (:)), plenty of other people have the same feelings as me on the subject, and nothing was said. I do believe it was more personal than due to my behaviour

thelordofcheese

Dudess wrote: »

Fuppin' teacher's pet...

I can't help it if i'm a good person.
I'd ask you to infract me, but i feel it's a bit forward for a first date and you wouldn't respect me afterwards.

third date, maybe.

Terry

rb_ie wrote: »

OT but any user can see their own infractions by looking at their profile

Example

Cheers.
Now stop screwing around.

DeVore wrote: »

While I disagree with slapping kids (it isnt a hanging offence imho, but it should be viewed as a "failure" by the parents), I do think that kids now have so many rights etc that they cannot even be forcibly removed from class rooms or restrained from doing something. This leads to the situation whereby when they turn 18 the look of shock on their faces when a guard puts their hand on them must be a sight to see!

I was walking to the supermarket earlier and there was two teenagers behind me.
Just as we got to the door, a squad car pulled up.
One of the teenager loudly said "there's the garda who pulled me up the other night. howya gard".
He said it in a quite cheeky way and obviously had no respect for the law.

I'm sounding like an old man now, but in my day we feared the cops and never got cheeky with them.
As much of a bollix as I was, I never gave them cheek.
Aside from the fact that I saw many people taken down to the station after giving them abuse, I was brought up to respect authority.
giving kids the leeway to give their teachers abuse is akin to this and just makes them respect authority figures even less.

spare the rod and spoil the child.

Dudess

Nah, leave the politics out of - I'll infract ya any time...

Sueme, I did not reprimand you on the basis of your views. I did so because of the way you were trolling/making snide remarks about my moderating.

TequilaMockingBird

Dudess wrote: »

Nah, leave the politics out of - I'll infract ya any time...

Sueme, I did not reprimand you on the basis of your views. I did so because of the way you were making snide remarks about my moderating.

Again, Dudess, read the posts.

thelordofcheese

Dudess wrote: »

Nah, leave the politics out of - I'll infract ya any time...

Oh my.....

TheBeach

slideways wrote: »

People are being irrational really
A freind of mine has a child and when he comes back from his father after the weekend he can be a little unruly, the mother gives ample warnings and they normally work but if not a slap on the arse is administered, it is not hard and the child is still in nappies so it def doesn't even hurt, but it is very effective. The wee lad normally starts crying with the shock of it and runs away to sulk for a min or 2 but somes back with an 'im sowwy' pretty quickly

Wouldn't it indicate that there is something else up with the child, if his behaviour changes after a visit to his fathers? And the child gets slapped even though he is young enough to still be in nappies? I just don't understand that at all. If it's the father's fault I presume he gets a whack too?

Dudess

sueme wrote: »

Again, Dudess, read the posts.

I've read them! But it doesn't matter, because the contents of your post have nothing to do with it, you were getting trolly and you were making remarks about my moderating, therefore I took action. I already said you're entitled to your views on parenting.

Manic Moran

rb_ie wrote: »

With a large trout?

Christ I feel so dirty making such a nerdy comment

You can tell who used to be routine Internet users in the days before Java-run browser-based chat rooms.

the odd time with the much-dreaded wooden spoon

What is it with the wooden spoon, anyway? I got it to spend some quality time with one as well, and it can't be a local cultural thing, my mother's Greek.

I think the whole 'get beaten, and become a violent person yourself' thing is silly. Barring the fact that I volunteered to fly around the world and shoot people, I consider myself to be quite a non-violent person, despite the occasional bout of corporal punishment in my past.

The concept of 'Carrot and stick' is an old one, for a reason. Solely positive or solely negative reinforcement is far less successful than the two used together. I would submit that just how a kid turns out is dependant upon rather more important issues than if they got the odd tap.

Pain is a survival trait which has been biologically wired into us. An earlier poster alluded to it. Darwinian logic would indicate that if it were useless as a training aid, it would have evolved out of us by now. We feel pain when we get burned as an indicator that your body's protection system is saying "This is a bad situation, and you had better take your hand out of the boiling water now, please, before you do some real damage. Oh, and by the way, don't do it again." People with CIPA (an inability to feel pain) are some of the most at-risk people in the world. As far as I'm concerned, the use of pain to teach a lesson can work, and no psychologist is going to convince me that nature is wrong. This even works with adults. Who amongst us has never suffered a hangover of doom and said "Hell, I'm never going to drink that combination of drinks again"? 'Comealongs' are routinely used by police as an effective way of controlling rowdy adults.

The kid must understand the causal relationship between his actions, and any positive (ice cream, pocket money, whatever) or negative (slapping, banishment etc), which requires proximity of time. The reinforcement must be appropriate to the act. (You're not going to get a car for improving your mathematics grades from C to . You don't have to resort to violence, much as you don't have to resort to tangible benefits such as increases in pocket moneys. However, they are all certainly tools which can be used in the appropriate circumstances.

NTM

Terry

Right.
Time for some more anecdotes.

My parents never laid a finger on me.
I was the bratty little spoiled child that everyone hates.

Now I can't remember this, but apparently my mother used to be all over the place when it came to reprimanding me. This was due to her being quite ill and her refusal to take her medication.
According to my cousins, she would sometimes reward my bad behaviour to try to appease me. I was the type of child who, in todays world, would probably have been diagnosed with ADD, even though I was just a little brat.

When I was about 9 or 10 I had a pissing contest with some friends.
We stood around a hole in the ground and tried to be the one to piss the longest.
This was in the middle of the estate.

Someone saw it and told my father.
He was really pissed off and took me in to the house, told me to drop my bags (any smart comments will result in a ban) and went to hit me with his belt.
I was crying like a litte bitch before he even had the chance to hit me.
He hit me with it once (gently. Most likely because of hte tears) and I never pissed in public again.

Terry

Manic Moran wrote: »

I think the whole 'get beaten, and become a violent person yourself' thing is silly. Barring the fact that I volunteered to fly around the world and shoot people, I consider myself to be quite a non-violent person, despite the occasional bout of corporal punishment in my past.

For once I agree with oyu.

Some of the most violent people I know were beaten as children, but there were also more serious issues involved. Sexual abuse being the main one.

Other violent people I know came from families where none of the kids were touched.

My old neighbour used to beat her kids and then give them the time-out thing (this was late 70's early 80's).
Now she used to really lay into the kids. Myself and a friend actually saw it one day. We could see into the kitchen from his garden and she was giving that kid a severe slapping on the arse.

He's the same age as me, is a successful chef and is happily settled with his girlfriend. He turned out quite well.

I really believe that how a child turns out boils down to more than whether they are given a slap.

I spent very little time with my father when I was growing up, but when I moved back in with him I found him to be the wisest person I have ever met.
Living with him turned my life around and I became a far more tolerant and calm person through his teachings. Then again, I was old enough to understand him at that point.

DeVore

I actually posted my thoughts here: (first post on that page)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055162659&page=7

Dudess, I use language very specifically in general.
I said: "it isnt a hanging offence imho, but it should be viewed as a "failure" by the parents" not "OF the parents".
I hope you were reinforcing that point , yes?? Sorry, its a slight but telling difference as you pointed out.

The post I made in the thread above more accurately details my feelings on the general topic....


DeV.

Terry

DeVore wrote: »

I actually posted my thoughts here: (first post on that page)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055162659&page=7

Dudess, I use language very specifically in general.
I said: "it isnt a hanging offence imho, but it should be viewed as a "failure" by the parents" not "OF the parents".
I hope you were reinforcing that point , yes?? Sorry, its a slight but telling difference as you pointed out.

The post I made in the thread above more accurately details my feelings on the general topic....


DeV.

What is the number of the post?
We seem to be on different page settings.

Quality

I have two children and I dont smack them... I feel like it some times, but I dont think that any good will come from it..




I believe that the following statements are very true....





If a child grows up in an environment of criticism, the child will learn to criticize.
If a child grows up in an environment of hate, the child will learn to fight.
If a child grows up in an environment of shame, the child will learn to feel guilty
If a child grows up in a praising environment, the child will learn to appreciate.
If a child grows up in an encouraging environment, the child will learn to be confident.
If a child grows up in an environment of understanding, the child will learn to be patient.
If a child grows up in a just environment, the child will learn to be fair.
If a child grows up in a secure environment, the child will learn to trust.
If a child grows up in an approving environment, the child will develop self-esteem.
If a child grows up in an environment of acceptance and friendship, the child will learn to find love in people.

Pighead

Terry wrote: »

What is the number of the post?
We seem to be on different page settings.

Hi Terry, DeVore here using my other account. The post is #121. Go to question 1: 1. The removal of corporal punishment in schools and the home.

Stand up job your doing by the way. Keep it up.

Dudess

DeVore wrote: »

I hope you were reinforcing that point , yes??

I was indeed
I took it that you meant if a parent slaps their child, that in itself is a failure, but that it does not make them failures as parents overall.

Terry

Pighead wrote: »

Hi Terry, DeVore here using my other account. The post is #121. Go to question 1: 1. The removal of corporal punishment in schools and the home.

Stand up job your doing by the way. Keep it up.

Hi, DeVore.
Terry here doing his job and banning alt accounts.

Terry

Quality wrote: »

I have two children and I dont smack them... I feel like it some times, but I dont think that any good will come from it..




I believe that the following statements are very true....





If a child grows up in an environment of criticism, the child will learn to criticize.
If a child grows up in an environment of hate, the child will learn to fight.
If a child grows up in an environment of shame, the child will learn to feel guilty
If a child grows up in a praising environment, the child will learn to appreciate.
If a child grows up in an encouraging environment, the child will learn to be confident.
If a child grows up in an environment of understanding, the child will learn to be patient.
If a child grows up in a just environment, the child will learn to be fair.
If a child grows up in a secure environment, the child will learn to trust.
If a child grows up in an approving environment, the child will develop self-esteem.
If a child grows up in an environment of acceptance and friendship, the child will learn to find love in people.

Quality, a list like that is not viable.
It doesn't take outside influences into account.

This one here for instance: If a child grows up in an encouraging environment, the child will learn to be confident.

Earlier today I picked my godchild up from school.
She is a vibrant and extremely confident child of six years of age.
The kid could talk the hind legs off a donkey.

however, her older brother (9) is really shy.

They have both been brought up in the same home environment, but the brother is bullied at school because all the kids think he's gay.
In fairness, he probably is. When he was five he told his mother that he knew that he wasn't like other boys.
He repeated that when he was seven and again last month.
He has never had male friends.

Both of his parents are extremely accepting and would have no problem at all if he does actually turn out to be gay.
There is not noe person in his entire extended family who would have a problem, but the outside influences are where the problems lie.

His mother has dealt with one of the bullies already, but it will only get worse as he gets older.

None of the boys in his class ever invite him to parties, but the girls always do.

No matter how good a parent you are, you cannot stop bullying in school completely.
It's just something that has to be dealt with at home and you just have to try to comfort the child by telling them that you will stand by them regardless.

However, this means nothing to a nine year old who still has to go to school the next day and face these bullies again.

DeVore

Read Freakonomics about how much parents matter to their kids. I hate to tell you, but its not all that much, particularly when compared to their mates influence...

DeV.

quackquackBOOM

Peared wrote: »

What kind of message do kids get when people much bigger and stronger than them inflict pain on them to get them to do their will? And we wonder why there are so many little f*uckers out there.

If you (feel you) have to slap you are a sh*t parent.

thats the dumbest thing i heard ever
why would you not hit a child if they are in the wrong it seems to have worked up until now
there is that many rules now what you can and cant do with your children thats its ridicules.

reasoning with children is spoiling them.
would your bank reason with you if you were 3 months behind on your mortgage,i dont think so.

a parent cant say "you" to a child e.g. "would you grab the door for your mother" it hast to be "james would you please grab the door for your mother" then "thank you james" when hes finished

there are so many little f*uckers out there because they know exactly what they can get away with and with what person
when you were in school who got picked on the kid who was a black belt or the kid who would cower in the corner?

this is whats wrong with the country there is nobody to teach these a lesson
this is the reason why restaurants are filled with the screams of kids on a sunday and why every q in the country has a kid smacking their mother and throwing leaflets on the ground.

Quality

Terry,

I think the most important influences on children these days are their primary carers eg. parents, teachers, and carers (creche, baby sitter, aunts, uncles, etc.)

I remember all my teachers names from junior infants to college...

If you gave me a picture of everyone I went to school with from then to now,,, I dont think I would be able to name them all...

Of course there are going to be outside influences.,, but in essence what statements have been made are true



therefore, I believe my list is viable.

Manic Moran

If you gave me a picture of everyone I went to school with from then to now,,, I dont think I would be able to name them all...

No, but I'll bet you'll remember the person who beat you up every day for your tuck shop money or the one who stole your girlfriend/boyfriend. Impact is not defined by position, but by actions.

On a related note.

If a child grows up in an environment of hate, the child will learn to fight.

I grew up in anything but a hateful environment, but have learned to fight. Some skills are just necessary. Experiences other than my home environment have led to this conclusion. I'm fairly sure you can find people brought up in a hateful environment who have taken a path of nothing but peace and love as well.

NTM