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Disbelief or Hatred ?

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    #32
    Graham Wailing Reforestation
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Graham Wailing Reforestation


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You can't say there's no shred of evidence. Try reading any of the writings of the mystic saints and you'll see what I mean. They've had very real and profound experiences of God.


    So have people of other religions...


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    #33
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You can't say there's no shred of evidence. Try reading any of the writings of the mystic saints and you'll see what I mean. They've had very real and profound experiences of God.

    Nice stories. No logical proof of anything.


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    #34
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    bluewolf wrote: »
    So have people of other religions...
    True but in the same way that all religions can't be true, all private revelations can't be true either. I think there is an important difference between the revelations to Catholic saints and non-catholics - The Catholic saints don't meditate on the word of God with the aim of having a religious experience. I don't think the same can be said of Buddhish, Hinduism, Sufism etc. In the case of true contemplation, it is not produced by an effort on the part of the person who is Meditating. Rather it is an "infusion" of God's grace into the soul producing a profound understanding of the nature of God. I have read about many forms of meditation and when you read about the ecstasies of the saints, there's no comparison with other experiences. It's like going from a mini to a merc, there's no going back.
    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Nice stories. No logical proof of anything.
    True, someone elses mystical experiences are no proof to other people. But the lives of the saints certainly boost my faith in a big way.

    St. Faustina's Diary is without doubt one of the most profound books I've ever read. It really is a stunning insight into God's mercy for the most hardened sinner. See: http://our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/


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    #35
    Graham Wailing Reforestation
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Graham Wailing Reforestation


    kelly1 wrote: »
    True but in the same way that all religions can't be true, all private revelations can't be true either. I think there is an important difference between the revelations to Catholic saints and non-catholics - The Catholic saints don't meditate on the word of God with the aim of having a religious experience. I don't think the same can be said of Buddhish, Hinduism, Sufism etc. In the case of true contemplation, it is not produced by an effort on the part of the person who is Meditating. Rather it is an "infusion" of God's grace into the soul producing a profound understanding of the nature of God. I have read about many forms of meditation and when you read about the ecstasies of the saints, there's no comparison with other experiences. It's like going from a mini to a merc, there's no going back.

    Ah, there's plenty of buddhist stories about people not meditating who reached enlightenment :)
    (not to mention it's default non-theistic )
    It depends on what the aim is I supopse and how well one has... conditioned their mind.


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    #36
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Would it be fair to say that you refuse to *seek* God purely on the basis that you don't believe in Him i.e. that you see no evidence for His existence? So therefore you refuse to take a leap of faith and try praying? Is that a reasonable statement?

    When I was younger I prayed to "God", when I was still open to the idea that such a creature might exist. Strangely nothing happened. Perhaps he knew that I would reject him later and decided not to bother with me .... or perhaps he doesn't exist ....


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    #37
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    When I was younger I prayed to "God", when I was still open to the idea that such a creature might exist. Strangely nothing happened. Perhaps he knew that I would reject him later and decided not to bother with me .... or perhaps he doesn't exist ....
    Maybe you prayed for the wrong thing? Maybe you prayed for something selfish or only when you needed something? Did you praise God and give Him thanks? Did you love God? Maybe, maybe not.

    In any case do you think God owes you anything? If God never answered any of my prayers, I would still continue to pray. It would make things more difficult for me but I trust that God always does what's best for me. But I have had many prayers answered and in striking ways.


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    #38
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    The problem is, Wicknight, you were praying to the wrong god. Prayer is like email: if you get even one character wrong, your message ends up going to some randomer. Cupid was probably sitting there checking his prayers and sees the subject 'In need of salvation'. "Wtf? I can't do that sh*t, all I can do is make people fall in love! *click* Into the spam folder." It's requests@god.com, not good.com.

    There's your problem Wicky Wiki.


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    #39
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Would it be fair to say that you refuse to *seek* God purely on the basis that you don't believe in Him i.e. that you see no evidence for His existence?
    I refuse to seek him in the same way I refuse to seek out Elvis in my shed.

    I've 12 yrs of catholic school and all it entails behind me. I've prayed, made my first confession, communion, confirmation etc. I've even been to Medjugorje. If God wanted to communicate he had his chance. He didn't. I think I know why.


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    #40
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Dades wrote: »
    I refuse to seek him in the same way I refuse to seek out Elvis in my shed.

    I've 12 yrs of catholic school and all it entails behind me. I've prayed, made my first confession, communion, confirmation etc. I've even been to Medjugorje. If God wanted to communicate he had his chance. He didn't. I think I know why.
    Because you're an apostate?


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    #41
    stereoroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭stereoroid


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You can't say there's no shred of evidence. Try reading any of the writings of the mystic saints and you'll see what I mean. They've had very real and profound experiences of God. But don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself. I'd be happy to offer suggestions.
    Here's a suggestion: learn the difference between evidence and testimony. Anything that people have said or written, now or in the past, is testimony. Words alone, with nothing to back them up independently, are not evidence of anything but the words alone.

    How much do you know about the history of the Catholic Church? Your religion was cobbled together by committees (the Councils of Nicaea), who decided what bits of ancient myth to keep, which to discard, and how to keep their "flocks" (i.e,. sheep) in line, with tales of saints and miracles. It worked, obviously. :rolleyes:

    Seriously, how do you expect such talk to go down here? You're making the same mistake as Muslims do: if only we would read some piece(s) of writing, we would be converted... O RLY? You all need to understand that words are just words: people write things, other people read them... and people will say or write anything that they care to. That includes all your "holy" scriptures, from all your religions, without exception: they are written to manipulate you, and shame on you for falling for it. Well, at least you're not a Scientologist, are you?


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    #42
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Dades wrote: »
    I refuse to seek him in the same way I refuse to seek out Elvis in my shed.
    I get tired of people putting God in the same category as the tooth fairy, Santa and the FSM. Nobody accepts the existence of those but surely the existence of God is far more likely? It is to my mind anyway. I mean why would a universe - with such a diversity of life - come into existence via a random big bang. Aren't the chances of that happening just a likely as the existence of the FSM etc.
    Dades wrote: »
    I've 12 yrs of catholic school and all it entails behind me. I've prayed, made my first confession, communion, confirmation etc. I've even been to Medjugorje. If God wanted to communicate he had his chance. He didn't. I think I know why.
    What were you expecting? A booming voice from Heaven? I'm talking about a real relationship with Jesus, not just rattling off perfunctory prayers.

    BTW, I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in Medjugorje. They're con-men/women if you ask me. Either that or victims of false/demonic visions.


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    #43
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    stereoroid wrote: »
    Here's a suggestion: learn the difference between evidence and testimony. Anything that people have said or written, now or in the past, is testimony. Words alone, with nothing to back them up independently, are not evidence of anything but the words alone.
    OK, thanks for that.
    stereoroid wrote: »
    How much do you know about the history of the Catholic Church? Your religion was cobbled together by committees (the Councils of Nicaea), who decided what bits of ancient myth to keep, which to discard, and how to keep their "flocks" (i.e,. sheep) in line, with tales of saints and miracles. It worked, obviously. :rolleyes:
    What evidence do you have that the council believed myths? What I believe is that the Truth was revealed by Jesus to His apostles. The truths revlealed to the apostles were brought to the council along with the various heresies doing the rounds at the time and the council decided by their God-given authority what was true and what was false. But I don't expect you to believe this.
    stereoroid wrote: »
    Seriously, how do you expect such talk to go down here? You're making the same mistake as Muslims do: if only we would read some piece(s) of writing, we would be converted... O RLY? You all need to understand that words are just words: people write things, other people read them... and people will say or write anything that they care to. That includes all your "holy" scriptures, from all your religions, without exception: they are written to manipulate you, and shame on you for falling for it.
    How do you actually know that God didn't reveal Himself first to the Jew and then through Jesus Christ? What kind of God would keep us in the dark?
    stereoroid wrote: »
    Well, at least you're not a Scientologist, are you?
    No bloody way! I don't believe any old crap!


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    #44
    stakey
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭stakey


    kelly1 wrote: »
    In any case do you think God owes you anything? If God never answered any of my prayers, I would still continue to pray. It would make things more difficult for me but I trust that God always does what's best for me. But I have had many prayers answered and in striking ways.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I get tired of people putting God in the same category as the tooth fairy, Santa and the FSM. Nobody accepts the existence of those but surely the existence of God is far more likely? It is to my mind anyway. I mean why would a universe - with such a diversity of life - come into existence via a random big bang. Aren't the chances of that happening just a likely as the existence of the FSM etc.

    Okay okay, so you believe in an all powerful god, who created the universe and all it's marvels. A pretty awesome being this being then. A being who managed to create an ever changing universe of complex laws and regulations filled with trillions and trillions of stars and galaxies. Pretty impressive feat.

    You also believe that this being, capable of creating such a thing as our universe (and perhaps it's conjoined universes (don't see that bit in the bible)) would bother listening to the woes and struggles of 6 billion hairless primates on the third rock from a pretty average star?

    Do you see why some people would compare this to belief in Santa or the Tooth Fairy?

    There is no physical evidence in the physical world that we live in for your god. The opinion written in texts hundreds of years old do not count as evidance. The feeling of 'his presence' is not evidence of his existance. Give me physical tangible proof of your god and i'll consider the scientific evidence.

    And if you're going to question the origins of the big bang then by all means do a bit of analysis on your own beliefs, where did your god come from?


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    #45
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    DaveMcG wrote: »
    Because you're an apostate?
    I may be now but I wasn't at the time!
    kelly1 wrote: »
    What were you expecting? A booming voice from Heaven? I'm talking about a real relationship with Jesus, not just rattling off perfunctory prayers.
    I'm confused here. I used to believe in God, did everything a good catholic did. What exactly do you have to do to obtain a real relationship? Instead, rather than getting any kind of feedback the world continued to turn in exactly the matter as it would if there were no God. Gradually I drew my own conclusions based on how I see the world and what I've learned, and yet it's still my fault? Does God only 'speak' with adults?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    BTW, I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in Medjugorje. They're con-men/women if you ask me. Either that or victims of false/demonic visions.
    I would agree with the former.


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    #46
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Dades wrote: »
    I'm confused here. I used to believe in God, did everything a good catholic did. What exactly do you have to do to obtain a real relationship? Instead, rather than getting any kind of feedback the world continued to turn in exactly the matter as it would if there were no God. Gradually I drew my own conclusions based on how I see the world and what I've learned, and yet it's still my fault? Does God only 'speak' with adults?
    I think it's fair to say that most "practicing" Catholics, not to mention lapsed Catholics, have a fairly loose relationship with God/Jesus. I don't mean to be judgmental but you only have to look at Mass attendances and the absence of people at the confession box.

    As far as I'm concerned, God should be at the centre of everyone's life. God created us and He wants to fill us with every grace is we'd only open up to him. The path to a true relationship with Christ is shown in the bible and even more clearly in the writings of the saints. It's a path that means denying one's own will and abandoning old ways and old sins and changing to conform with God's will. It's about putting God's will before ours. But how many people are prepared to change and give up worldly pleasures and comforts in order to "live in the Spirit"? Very few.


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    #47
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    kelly1 wrote: »
    It's about putting God's will before ours.
    Its a rather vain and self-centred god that would require people to go down on bended knee for salvation and attention. Certainly not one worthy of our respect imho.


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    #48
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Noel, you've manage to say exactly nothing in those two paragraphs.

    I told you about how I used to be a good catholic and you spout off about "denying one's own will and abandoning old ways and old sins and changing to conform with God's will" like the guy with the placards on Abbey Street.

    You're shirking the point which was if God remains conspicuously silent even when he is believed in - why are people to blame when they conclude he's not there at all?


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    #49
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Bloody hell! It's like we're speaking different languages. Anyway I must get back to work now.


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    #50
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    kelly1 wrote: »
    No bloody way! I don't believe any old crap!

    LOL
    Brilliant.
    kelly, you're priceless :D


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    #51
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I got Noel to curse!


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    #52
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Dades wrote: »
    I got Noel to curse!
    While I try to avoid it does rear it's ugly head now and again :)


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    #53
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    LOL
    Brilliant.
    kelly, you're priceless :D

    I agree. Since I first encountered him on this forum he hasn't budged one bit in what he believes. He is like a clock he just goes round and round and round and round.........you get the picture.


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    #54
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Dades wrote: »
    I got Noel to curse!
    *high five* lol


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    #55
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I agree. Since I first encountered him on this forum he hasn't budged one bit in what he believes.
    A bit like you really.


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    #56
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    How do you actually know that God didn't reveal Himself first to the Jew and then through Jesus Christ? What kind of God would keep us in the dark?

    One that didn't exist?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #57
    estebancambias
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭estebancambias


    DaveMcG wrote: »
    The problem is, Wicknight, you were praying to the wrong god. Prayer is like email: if you get even one character wrong, your message ends up going to some randomer. Cupid was probably sitting there checking his prayers and sees the subject 'In need of salvation'. "Wtf? I can't do that sh*t, all I can do is make people fall in love! *click* Into the spam folder." It's requests@god.com, not good.com.

    There's your problem Wicky Wiki.

    I don't care, but that was hilarious.


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    #58
    bogwalrus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭bogwalrus


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You can't say there's no shred of evidence. Try reading any of the writings of the mystic saints and you'll see what I mean. They've had very real and profound experiences of God. But don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself. I'd be happy to offer suggestions.


    those mystic saints sound cool. do they have any special abilities?


    :D


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