LHD/Foreign Vehicles

lafors

I'll try not to make this a rant.
On the way to work this evening I was nearly minced by an LHD/foreign reg car, this is the nearest I've ever been to a crash.
It was on a short straight on the backroads between dunboyne and maynooth. The car was behind an big HGV, and tried to overtake, I saw him, slowed, and had to pull into the left (lucky the road is wide on this short stretch), he was only halfway past the hgv when he past me. The truck blasted him out of it when he got past. WTF was the idiot thinking!

I'd love to know the stats for LHD or foreign vehicles involved in accidents in the past few years. Its about time the govt. actually went about doing something about it. Can any licence be transferred to an Irish one? Do these drivers even transfer their licences? I assume they have to register their cars here after being here for a certain amount of time, do they? If they are don't does that mean their insurance is valid? Do they pay tax on their vehicle here? If they don't do most of these things then why would anyone expect them to obey the rules of the road?

As you can guess I'm pretty annoyed, but at least I'm still here and not another statistic.....sorry it was a rant.

Hagar

lafors wrote: »

Can any licence be transferred to an Irish one?

Many nationalities have licence exchange arrangements with the Irish Govt. In cases where none exists the foreign driver must apply for an Irish licence and sit the test just like anyone else. ie drive for many years on a provisional. Expect them then to drive like any other learner driver except with possible bad habits and a tendency to drive on the right.

lafors wrote: »

Do these drivers even transfer their licences?

There is no legal obligation to exchange a valid EU licence for an Irish one. An Irish licence won't make them drive any better.

lafors wrote: »

I assume they have to register their cars here after being here for a certain amount of time, do they?

AFAIK they have either 3 or 6 months to re-register the car. It will then be a LHD with Irish plates, not any safer really. It will still have a serious blind spot when it comes to overtaking.

lafors wrote: »

If they are don't does that mean their insurance is valid?

It depends on the terms of their insurance policy. Most policies allow you to drive for 30 days per year abroad. With the freedom of movement withing the EU I can't see how that can ever be 100% monitored. I'd say the more relevant question is do they have any insurance at all?

lafors wrote: »

Do they pay tax on their vehicle here?

You only pay tax on an Irish registered vehicle so unless it has been re-registered and insured in Ireland the answer is no. Paying tax won't make them better drivers.

lafors wrote: »

If they don't do most of these things then why would anyone expect them to obey the rules of the road?

They are largely immune from prosecution because they cannot be traced the way an Irish driver in an Irish car can be, so why should they bother?

Terrontress

Let me tell you about some people. They don't like Eastern Europeans but they fancy the women. They don't like the way the Easterners take all those jobs they have no intention of doing themselves. They go on about certain sections of society who can't drive, even though the standard amongst the Irish is woeful. There is a word for this sort of behaviour which begins with R.

There is nothing to suggest that this person you encountered was not over on a driving holiday from Warsaw for a week yet you would have him stripped of his license and car.

He probably thought to himself "ridiculous Irish roads, littered with trucks and no passing places and then when I find one; someone on the other side of the road accelerates towards me."

Hagar

Terrontress wrote: »

He probably thought to himself " Zabawny Irlandzki (Irlandczyk) drogi, zaśmiecany z samochodami ciężarowymi i żadnego mijania (przecinanie) umieszcza i potem kiedy znajduję jed; Ktoś z drugiej strony drogi przyśpiesza w kierunku do mnie."

There I fixed that for you, he probably doesn't think in English. :D

Anan1

Terrontress wrote: »

Let me tell you about some people. They don't like Eastern Europeans but they fancy the women. They don't like the way the Easterners take all those jobs they have no intention of doing themselves. They go on about certain sections of society who can't drive, even though the standard amongst the Irish is woeful. There is a word for this sort of behaviour which begins with R.

There is nothing to suggest that this person you encountered was not over on a driving holiday from Warsaw for a week yet you would have him stripped of his license and car.

He probably thought to himself "ridiculous Irish roads, littered with trucks and no passing places and then when I find one; someone on the other side of the road accelerates towards me."

+1

Victor_M

"Let me tell you about some people. They don't like Eastern Europeans but they fancy the women. They don't like the way the Easterners take all those jobs they have no intention of doing themselves. They go on about certain sections of society who can't drive, even though the standard amongst the Irish is woeful. There is a word for this sort of behaviour which begins with R.

There is nothing to suggest that this person you encountered was not over on a driving holiday from Warsaw for a week yet you would have him stripped of his license and car.

He probably thought to himself "ridiculous Irish roads, littered with trucks and no passing places and then when I find one; someone on the other side of the road accelerates towards me." "

Anan1 wrote: »

+1

Wow - The R word made it into the first reply this time. Amazing, can't say anything about any non-nationals with the R word deflecting from the point.

Whilst he may indeed have been over on a driving holiday from Warsaw for a week driving around the back roads of Maynooth, he may also have been working here for years, driving possibly uninsured and most definitely driving untaxed.

The Op was nearly run off the road by an act of dangerous driving, made more dangerous by the fact the the car was LHD in a RHD country (meaning that more caution and less overtaking should be excersised) and the PC, high horse and guys with Eastern European girlfirends brigade jump down his throat - typical boards response.

I have witnessed a huge amount of bad driving & particularly serious drink driving from our Foreign friends over the last number of years, I have also witnessed a massive amount of bad driving from Irish people/registered cars, but it seems to be againts the boards charter to mention any sort of minority.

Op glad you weren't injured, pity you didn't get the reg, not that it would have made any difference as they are untraceable over here.

Terrontress

I am sure the Op would like to think he can take his car over on the ferry to France without people questioning his license, insurance, tax etc.

It's called the EU.

I'd say this episode points to the stupidity of Irish drivers. Someone is overtaking a HGV. The HGV sees someone coming the other way and instead of braking he maintains his pace and sounds his horn. The driver coming the other way sees someone overtaking a HGV. Instead of braking he maintains his pace, and gets into the closest to an accident he has ever been, smug in the knowledge the law is on his side.

If there had been a herd of cattle on your side of the road would you have braked in good time or else driven up to them, swerve into the hard shoulder and then come on here moaning about cows?

mackerski

I drive a LHD car. I have an accident-free driving record going back to 1989. I'm a pasty-faced Paddy with the licence (pink) to match.

To the OP:

The LHD vehicle wasn't responsible for your scare.
Neither was the country of origin of car or driver.
Neither were the driver's fellow-countrymen.

Your beef is with the driver. Try to target your displeasure more usefully.

Seth Brundle

Terrontress wrote: »

I'd say this episode points to the stupidity of Irish drivers. Someone is overtaking a HGV. The HGV sees someone coming the other way and instead of braking he maintains his pace and sounds his horn. The driver coming the other way sees someone overtaking a HGV. Instead of braking he maintains his pace, and gets into the closest to an accident he has ever been, smug in the knowledge the law is on his side.

In fairness, it should be the person overtaking who should be the first to stop/slow; not everyone else!

--amadeus--

I've had a couple of LHD cars in the past and they are no more dangerous than RHD cars. If you want to overtake you have to plan a little more carefully and street furniture (signs, etc) can occasionally obscure you at junctions but that's about all.

LHD / RHD, modded / standard, powerful / tiny engine - none of this makes a car more or less dangerous, it's the driver that is the risk and a bad driver making bad decisions is a danger no matter what they are driving.

To be fair there are now a great deal of foreign nationals living over here and they do (according to some stats I saw recently) seem to be disproportional represented in traffic accidents. This is now being addressed with foreign language road safety workshops and an information campaign. It'll take time but it's an adaptation process. As an immigrant nation ourselves that shouldn't be hard to accept.

Terrontress

It is the responsibility of the driver performing the manoeuvre to ensure it is safe before doing so but what comfort is that if you end up in a 6ft box?

Yes, I agree that people should not be overtaking dangerously but people should also use a bit of sense and not speed towards a hazard because they are in the right according to the rules of the road.

And dangerous driving is not the sole preserve of any one nationality. At least most of these "foreign drivers" have passed a test of some form to judge their driving. Unlike our fellow countrymen.

Hallowed

@ Terrontress.
Why do you keep saying that the OP sped towards the hazard because he in the right according to the rules of the road.
In his post he states that he slowed down and pulled to the left in order to avoid the car.
If you're gonna comment at least read the post correctly!

Marcus.Aurelius

Hallowed wrote: »

@ Terrontress.
Why do you keep saying that the OP sped towards the hazard because he in the right according to the rules of the road.
In his post he states that he slowed down and pulled to the left in order to avoid the car.
If you're gonna comment at least read the post correctly!

+1

The rate of accidents with our present non-national driver population is quite disproportional to our native rate. Death rate from RTAs is particularly higher.

There is a mild consensus that the eastern europeans seem to have a much smaller regard for the value of life than the locals, but don't worry, we are quickly catching up.

Entertainingly, I notice the gardaí where I live are starting to swoop on foreign-registered cars and seizing them all over the place, once they've been here a few months. I want to see them pay tax and get insurance like the rest of us, it might not improve their atrocious driving, but it will possibly teach them how precious a privilege it is to drive.

Not a right, a privilege, which brings responsibility to other drivers.

end of rant!:D

craichoe

IMO, the Gardai need to crack down on Foreign registered drivers.

Enforcement is the problem, the foreign drivers go to Ireland and know they can get away with anything as they dont have a registered address there from the reg and at the worse they'll have to pay a fine.

This is a problem all over the EU, not just Ireland, it more about not giving a shi*te rather than driver education. The brits and irish are just as bad for speeding and dangerous manoevers on conto-euro roads.

Mena

There have been various references here and in other posts to the statistics pointing out a high proportion of foreign drivers in accidents. Anyone care to share the actual data?

Marcus.Aurelius

Mena wrote: »

There have been various references here and in other posts to the statistics pointing out a high proportion of foreign drivers in accidents. Anyone care to share the actual data?

Joint Committee on Transport Report 11 May 2006

Deputy Power asked about fatalities among foreign nationals. So far this year there have been 31 deaths, of which 11 were drivers and 20 passengers. Foreign drivers have been involved in nine other fatal collisions where they escaped death themselves.

Chairman: Perhaps this is the wrong way of putting it but the Commissioner is saying that 40 out of 140 fatal accidents this year involved foreign nationals.

Commissioner Conroy: Yes. The total number of fatal collisions is 126 so it is a high percentage.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20060511.xml&Ex=All&Page=4


Seems very high to me!!!

Mena

Ok, and of those, how many were caused by the foreigners and how many caused by the locals?

To be fair, after seeing the joke of a driving test my wife went through here in Ireland, I'm suprised the deaths on our roads are not three times as high...

Anan1

maoleary wrote: »

+1

The rate of accidents with our present non-national driver population is quite disproportional to our native rate. Death rate from RTAs is particularly higher.

I'm sure this is true in most countries, given that young males tend to make up a disproportionate number of emigrants, compared to the population at large.

maoleary wrote: »

There is a mild consensus that the eastern europeans seem to have a much smaller regard for the value of life than the locals.

A consensus doesn't make it true, see above.

--amadeus--

I'm at a client site so I can't google the stats but the above echo's my understanding. Foreign nationals account for c. 10% of all drivers so you would expect them to make up c. 10% of all accidents but I read somewhere that they are actually involved in (from memory) something like 40% of all non-fatal collisions. Part of my job involves some work with the emergency services and they have some toe curling stories of foreign national drivers.

Couple of things to remember though - young male drivers are still statistically the most dangerous on our roads - regardless of nationality. And someone can be a foreign national in a LHD car (or a young male in a tarted up Glanza, or even a Yummie Mummy in a BMW Jeep!) and still be a good, safe and responible driver.

Anan1

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm at a client site so I can't google the stats but the above echo's my understanding. Foreign nationals account for c. 10% of all drivers so you would expect them to make up c. 10% of all accidents

This is quite simply not true. If all immigrants were mature female drivers, would you expect the same number of accidents as if they were all young male brickies?

alexmcred

In comparison to some of the eastern bloc states Irelands roads are actually good. Talking to some Polish people they are quite impressed by Irish roads. I would think that this can lead to an over confidence on the roads.

groupb

Terrontress wrote: »

Let me tell you about some people. They don't like Eastern Europeans but they fancy the women. They don't like the way the Easterners take all those jobs they have no intention of doing themselves. They go on about certain sections of society who can't drive, even though the standard amongst the Irish is woeful. There is a word for this sort of behaviour which begins with R.

There is nothing to suggest that this person you encountered was not over on a driving holiday from Warsaw for a week yet you would have him stripped of his license and car.

He probably thought to himself "ridiculous Irish roads, littered with trucks and no passing places and then when I find one; someone on the other side of the road accelerates towards me."

When in Rome ......................

--amadeus--

Anan1 wrote: »

This is quite simply not true. If all immigrants were mature female drivers, would you expect the same number of accidents as if they were all young male brickies?

All else being equal then, errr, yes

It's fairly simple statistical science. Accidents can be considered to happen to 2 distinct sets of people. Those that cause an accident and those that have accidents happen to them (in other words those that have an accident through "bad luck" and are not at fault).

Taking teh secnd set an accident can happen to you randomly, you can be driving down a country lane at a sedate pace and have a blow out, or have a cow walk out in front of you, or someone rear end you, or whatever. Since these events are by definition random they affect all people equally. Therefore if 50% of Irish cars are red then you would expect something in the region of 50% of cars involved in collisions to be red. If 5% of teh people inthe country are called Mabel then you expect c. 5% of people in an accident to be called Mabel. By extension if 10% of teh drivers are foreign then c. 10% of collisions should involve foreign drivers.

What alters this is where a section falls into category 1, those that cause accidents. So if we know that 10% of cars are BMWs but 20% of all accidents involve BMWs then this is a statistical anomoly and we can fairly safely say that BMWs are a higher risk than other cars of crashing. Or put another way that BMW drivers are more dangerous. (Just using BMW as a made up example, btw!). This board is full of real life examples of this - young males make up a disproportionate percentage of road accident victims so they are seen as more dangerous and insurance companies make them pay higher premiums.

So yes, if foreign nationals make up roughly 10% of teh population I expect them to make up roughly 10% of teh accident statistics, wiether they are young men, older women or middle aged transexuals! If they make up a signifigantly lower proportion they are statistically safer if they make up a higher proportion (as they do) then we can say that they are statistically less safe.

DonJose

Terrontress wrote: »

Let me tell you about some people. They don't like Eastern Europeans but they fancy the women. They don't like the way the Easterners take all those jobs they have no intention of doing themselves. They go on about certain sections of society who can't drive, even though the standard amongst the Irish is woeful. There is a word for this sort of behaviour which begins with R.

WTF has the above got to do with the fact that the OP was nearly killed by an IDIOT driver.

Terrontress wrote: »

There is nothing to suggest that this person you encountered was not over on a driving holiday from Warsaw for a week yet you would have him stripped of his license and car.

So being a tourist makes it OK to driver like as A$$HOLE.

Terrontress wrote: »

He probably thought to himself "ridiculous Irish roads, littered with trucks and no passing places and then when I find one; someone on the other side of the road accelerates towards me."

LOL WTF I hope something was lost in translation because that makes no sense at all. Anyway if you read the OP then you'd see it was a "backroads between dunboyne and maynooth" not a motorway.

craichoe

There is a mild consensus that the eastern europeans seem to have a much smaller regard for the value of life than the locals.

Nah, thats just completely wrong.

They just don't give a crap because their not at home, its the same with the Dutch on Irish roads or the Germans on Dutch Roads, or the French on Belgian roads.

Lads, this problem exists ALL over europe. People not from the country drive like a$$holes because they can, simple as. Their trying to tackle it between the schengen countries here anyway.

Oh yeah, btw, people have been throwing around the phrase "Foreign National" which Irish people seem to think means African or Polish, actually means, anyone not from that country. There were more than 10% well before the Polish turned up.

Anan1

Amadeus - I think you're missing my point. Young men are statistically more likely to crash than average. An overrepresentation of young men among immigrants will, therefore, lead to higher-than-average accidents among immigrants.

Marcus.Aurelius

Anan1 wrote: »

I'm sure this is true in most countries, given that young males tend to make up a disproportionate number of emigrants, compared to the population at large.

A consensus doesn't make it true, see above.

Agreed on the constitution of immigrant influx being young mostly. At the same time, even young male irish drivers do not account for 40/140 (28.4%) of accidents!

And if they do, it's still a big difference between the native population and the immigrant population, per capita and irrespective of age profile.

"A consensus doesn't make it true"

Why write that at all? What's the point of saying that? I said consensus, not that it was a fact.

Anan1

maoleary wrote: »

Agreed on the constitution of immigrant influx being young mostly. At the same time, even young male irish drivers do not account for 40/140 (28.4%) of accidents!

9+11 makes 20, not 40, ie in 14.2% of fatal accidents the driver was a non-national.

maoleary wrote: »

Why write that at all? What's the point of saying that? I said consensus, not that it was a fact.

I said it because it's true. Is that ok with you?;)

Victor_M

Anan1 wrote: »

9+11 makes 20, not 40, ie in 14.2% of fatal accidents the driver was a non-national.

I said it because it's true. Is that ok with you?;)

But just under 25% of all people killed ion Irish roads this year have been Non national. Why is that such a disproportionate figure? Are they just unluckier?

Anan1

Victor_M wrote: »

But just under 25% of all people killed ion Irish roads this year have been Non national. Why is that such a disproportionate figure? Are they just unluckier?

The half who weren't driving at the time presumably are.

It BeeMee

A letter in today's Irish Times addresses this issue, the author of which has experience driving from Warsaw to Bialystock.

It seems to be the recognised practice that drivers are expected to use the hard shoulder as a sort of unofficial inside lane, into which they move to allow oncoming vehicles to overtake; indeed, the overtaking driver assumes that an approaching vehicle will pull into his hard shoulder to allow his manoeuvre, and is seems that the approaching driver knows to do that.

It is possible that Polish drivers may expect the same reaction from drivers here....

If that is their driving culture, then you can see how accidents can happen over here. In fact, it describes the situation the OP found himself in. The difference is, the other driver will deny he forced the OP off the road; rather, he will argue that's where he expected the OP to drive anyway.

Unfortunately this "clash of cultures" can have fatal consequences.

Solution? I don't know. Education of drivers (both foreign and Irish) may help, but years of driving habits won't be overwritten easily by some tv ads and newspaper articles..... old dog, new tricks and all that...