Which brand of radio fence/shock collar to buy?

Monkstownman

I see four brands of fence out there:
PetSafe
Canifence
PAC Electronic Fence
Force Field

I have a loopy Gordan Setter who will chase cats at any opportunity and I need the best way of keeping her in our garden.

Does anyone have experience with any of these brands?

I asked this question in another thread but it really wasn't specific to that thread so I'm posting it in a thread of it's own.

Vinnie K

Why would any one want to put somethingon there dog that is going to shock them.

Boggles

Several reasons, try guess one yourself.

lulubell

Well it only shocks them once or twice, after that they know what the beeping means and they stay away.Make sure you follow the video instructions and spend ur few days training the dog, most important! I have the Pet safe one for my mad boxer and it workes brilliantly:D And it's not at all cruel, cause he never gets shocked(have it 3 yrs now) and this plus my wooden fencing keeps him from getting squashed on the main road.:rolleyes:

BeauZak

My opinion is as follows:

Electric Shock Training?

Thinking of buying an Invisible fence or Training Collar for your dog? Think again.

The following organisations condemn the use of these collars and products:
Dogs Trust
RSPCA
Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors
Association of Pet Dog Trainers
The Kennel Club UK
The British Veterinary Association
Establishments that have already banned electric shock collars, include the Association of Chief Police Officers, the armed forces, and the two largest German Shepherd Dog clubs in the UK..

<company name removed> also condemns the use of electric collars and products in any form.

Electric collars and products include the following:
Shock collars also referred to as training collars, e-collars, bark collars, anti-bark collars, remote electronic collars, pet safety collars, good dog bark collars
Containment systems also referred to as invisible fences, freedom fences, underground fences, electric fences, training fences, hidden fences
Electric Shock Mats of which there are two types: one is known as a ‘wireless crate’ and emits electric shocks to the dog when it steps off the mat and the other is called a ‘scat mat’ and emits an electric shock to the dog when it steps on the mat.
Electric shock leads emit electric shocks to a dog if it exerts more pressure on the lead than is considered ‘normal’ for its size.
Manufacturers market these products as being safe, effective, fast, reliable. The products use an electric shock as a punisher for behaviours such as barking or passing an invisible boundary and the remote control collars can be used to shock the dog for any behaviour. Manufacturers describe the shock as a 'correction', ' mild correction', 'sensation', 'unpleasant feeling', 'static' but they will never say that your dog receives an electric shock. The electric shock is delivered to the dogs neck via prongs that protrude and press on the dogs neck. Some manufacturers advise shaving the hair from the dogs neck and using a conductive gel to get a better 'connection'.

Studies such as the 'Training dogs with help of the shock collar, Department of Clinical Science of Companion Animals, University of Utrecht, Netherlands shows that the behavioural effects of the use of the shock collar resulted in dogs displaying avoidance, high pitched yelps, excessive lip licking, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, tongue flicking all of which suggest fear and stress. The conclusions of the study are, that being trained is stressful, that receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the dogs evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or their commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context. This suggests that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at stake, at least in the presence of their owner. (Matthijs B.H. Schilder and Joanne A.M. van der Borg, was published in the Applied Animal Behaviour Science Journal)

The Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors say "A dog experiencing an unpleasant shock to the neck 'out of the blue' will associate the sensation with whatever the dog happens to be focusing on at the time. Used incorrectly, this could be an area, object, another dog, the owner or even a child"

The UK Kennel Club say "Electric shock collars are used on dogs by some people to give an electric shock when the dog is deemed to be behaving incorrectly. This leads to pain and confusion for the dog, affecting it physically and mentally"

In our opinion shock collars fail to address the underlying behavioural problem and are more likely to cause other serious behavioural problems such as aggression, fear, stress, urination without control, lack of ability to cope, depression, anxiety, pain and other physical problems. The use of Shock collars cause confusion to the dog as to where the shock came from and the dog is more likely to associate the shock with the presence of the owner or anything in the dogs immediate vicinity at the time the shock occurs.

jameshayes

BeauZak wrote: »

My opinion is as follows:

Electric Shock Training?

Thinking of buying an Invisible fence or Training Collar for your dog? Think again.

The following organisations condemn the use of these collars and products:
Dogs Trust
RSPCA
Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors
Association of Pet Dog Trainers
The Kennel Club UK
The British Veterinary Association
Establishments that have already banned electric shock collars, include the Association of Chief Police Officers, the armed forces, and the two largest German Shepherd Dog clubs in the UK..

<company name removed> also condemns the use of electric collars and products in any form.

Electric collars and products include the following:
Shock collars also referred to as training collars, e-collars, bark collars, anti-bark collars, remote electronic collars, pet safety collars, good dog bark collars
Containment systems also referred to as invisible fences, freedom fences, underground fences, electric fences, training fences, hidden fences
Electric Shock Mats of which there are two types: one is known as a ‘wireless crate’ and emits electric shocks to the dog when it steps off the mat and the other is called a ‘scat mat’ and emits an electric shock to the dog when it steps on the mat.
Electric shock leads emit electric shocks to a dog if it exerts more pressure on the lead than is considered ‘normal’ for its size.
Manufacturers market these products as being safe, effective, fast, reliable. The products use an electric shock as a punisher for behaviours such as barking or passing an invisible boundary and the remote control collars can be used to shock the dog for any behaviour. Manufacturers describe the shock as a 'correction', ' mild correction', 'sensation', 'unpleasant feeling', 'static' but they will never say that your dog receives an electric shock. The electric shock is delivered to the dogs neck via prongs that protrude and press on the dogs neck. Some manufacturers advise shaving the hair from the dogs neck and using a conductive gel to get a better 'connection'.

Studies such as the 'Training dogs with help of the shock collar, Department of Clinical Science of Companion Animals, University of Utrecht, Netherlands shows that the behavioural effects of the use of the shock collar resulted in dogs displaying avoidance, high pitched yelps, excessive lip licking, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, tongue flicking all of which suggest fear and stress. The conclusions of the study are, that being trained is stressful, that receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the dogs evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or their commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context. This suggests that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at stake, at least in the presence of their owner. (Matthijs B.H. Schilder and Joanne A.M. van der Borg, was published in the Applied Animal Behaviour Science Journal)

The Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors say "A dog experiencing an unpleasant shock to the neck 'out of the blue' will associate the sensation with whatever the dog happens to be focusing on at the time. Used incorrectly, this could be an area, object, another dog, the owner or even a child"

The UK Kennel Club say "Electric shock collars are used on dogs by some people to give an electric shock when the dog is deemed to be behaving incorrectly. This leads to pain and confusion for the dog, affecting it physically and mentally"

In our opinion shock collars fail to address the underlying behavioural problem and are more likely to cause other serious behavioural problems such as aggression, fear, stress, urination without control, lack of ability to cope, depression, anxiety, pain and other physical problems. The use of Shock collars cause confusion to the dog as to where the shock came from and the dog is more likely to associate the shock with the presence of the owner or anything in the dogs immediate vicinity at the time the shock occurs.

imagine if you were shocked everytime you done something - how would that make you feel? Pi$$ed off? Imagine how a dog feels?

Rodney Trotter

I find some of the advice being given to be incredible, TBH. (one contributor volunteered an opinion, then only offered a quote)

When installed dogs DO NOT get a shock every time they do something. They get a shock when they are learning their boundary, that's all.

The installation procedure for the fence includes flags, or markers, which you place towards the boundary. This will lead the dog to think it's the flag that's causing the shock (as opposed to an area they had no problem with prior to the installation) and they will learn to avoid the flag.

They are a clever innovative and convenient way to establish a boundary.

We have two dogs with them and there are absolutely no negative repercussions whatsoever. They now know where they can and cannot go. (And that includes the b1tch of a neighbour who used to call them every day to feed them her scraps.)

BTW I have a PetSafe system.

stevoman

I have seen plenty of dogs that have an eletric collar and fence and they seem fine and happy

for every big long study done by some crowd, ther will always be another to contadict it.

Get one if its what you want to do. you will see first hand the results as its your dog and well if it doesnt work out for some reason, at least nobody will have kicked you up the arse except yourself!

summer_ina_bowl

the majority of dogs that we admit into our clinic for very severe, life threatening (often fatal) bite/fight wounds live in areas enclosed by electric fencing. basically, a (possibly big, aggressive) stray etc wanders onto the property unhindered as it doesn't have a shock collar, it decides that hmmmm, it would like your nice garden to be his territory, much to his displeasure, he spots your gordon setter. he decides that your dog must be warded off the property, so he charges him. now in normal behaviour, the weaker dog would run away, even after a short scuffle, but if your dog is the weaker dog it can't run away. the stray dog doesn't understand that your pooch has been electrically conditioned, and so he sees the failure to run away as a challenge. result, your dog gets savaged.
A fence keeps your dog in and others out, an electic boundary doesn't offer your dog any protection from roamers--- neglect anyone?

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

the majority of dogs that we admit into our clinic for very severe, life threatening (often fatal) bite/fight wounds live in areas enclosed by electric fencing. basically, a (possibly big, aggressive) stray etc wanders onto the property unhindered as it doesn't have a shock collar, it decides that hmmmm, it would like your nice garden to be his territory, much to his displeasure, he spots your gordon setter. he decides that your dog must be warded off the property, so he charges him. now in normal behaviour, the weaker dog would run away, even after a short scuffle, but if your dog is the weaker dog it can't run away. the stray dog doesn't understand that your pooch has been electrically conditioned, and so he sees the failure to run away as a challenge. result, your dog gets savaged.
A fence keeps your dog in and others out, an electic boundary doesn't offer your dog any protection from roamers--- neglect anyone?

Would the amount of dogs admitted to your clinic that have been hit by vehicles out number the scenario you outlined above?

Rodney Trotter

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

the majority of dogs that we admit into our clinic for very severe, life threatening (often fatal) bite/fight wounds live in areas enclosed by electric fencing. basically, a (possibly big, aggressive) stray etc wanders onto the property unhindered as it doesn't have a shock collar, it decides that hmmmm, it would like your nice garden to be his territory, much to his displeasure, he spots your gordon setter. he decides that your dog must be warded off the property, so he charges him. now in normal behaviour, the weaker dog would run away, even after a short scuffle, but if your dog is the weaker dog it can't run away. the stray dog doesn't understand that your pooch has been electrically conditioned, and so he sees the failure to run away as a challenge. result, your dog gets savaged.
.........................

Sounds more like a fairy tale, really. That story is just not true.

What are the chances of a stray dog coming into one's garden and savaging one's dog? If one was calculating, the odds would be very remote. And to suggest such a dog would not jump a fence would be a bit disingenuous.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

....................neglect anyone?

Not in the slightest.

You know? I don't fence my children in. If, God forbid, one of them goes out and gets hit by another kid, or a car, does that mean neglect?

summer_ina_bowl

Boggles, RTA's definately outnumber fight wounds. Thats not my point, my point is that if your dog needs to be enclosed, do it properly.

Rodney, Trotter, "sounds like a fairytale"? "untrue"?, tell me that again when you're the blood soaked person doin CPR on a dying dog who has been bleeding for hours while it's owner was at work, tell me that when for the third time you're the one re-opening wounds so that the infection can be drained out, tell me that when after a week of all your best efforts that dog dies, and you're the one who has the displeasure of breakin the news to the owner and kid. The last one was called Jack, by the way, a little Jack Russel cross who was attacked by the neighbours labrador.

I'm not saying it's neglect to let the dog out, I'm saying it's neglect to trap it in an area where it is not protected and cannot escape from threats.
If your children are old enough, if they have sufficient common sense, if they have learned the rules of the road, if they posess the power to communicate verbally to resolve disputes, then no, i do not think it is neglectful to allow them out alone. If you trap that child in a place that they cannot escape from, but that murderers/peadophiles/physical abusers can enter, then yeah, imo, that is neglect in all its f*ckin glory.

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

Boggles, RTA's definately outnumber fight wounds.

By how much would you estimate, 1000-1, (fight wounds from the scenario you mentioned)

summer_ina_bowl

Boggles wrote: »

By how much would you estimate, 1000-1, (fight wounds from the scenario you mentioned)

Since january first, we've treated 16 RTAs and 3 dogs who were mauled within electric fencing systems.

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

Since january first, we've treated 16 RTAs and 3 dogs who were mauled within electric fencing systems.

3 from the scenario you mentioned since January???

Would a wall or fence not present the same problems? Big Dog gets into small dogs garden, big dog can jump the wall/fence, small dog can't escape?

summer_ina_bowl

Boggles wrote: »

Would a wall or fence not present the same problems? Big Dog gets into small dogs garden, big dog can jump the wall/fence, small dog can't escape?

A) If the wall/fence is high enough, even a big dog couldn't get in.

A dog is much more likely to wander unhindered into a strange garden than scale a high wall/fence to get there.

You don't think three dogs being mauled in the same scenario in a little over a month is enough of a reason to be against these systems? 5 dogs have been admitted with severe bite wounds since january, 3 were enclosed by electric fences, 1 was attacked at a shelter and one was attacked by two other dogs in a completely open garden.

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

A) If the wall/fence is high enough, even a big dog couldn't get in.

A dog is much more likely to wander unhindered into a strange garden than scale a high wall/fence to get there.

You don't think three dogs being mauled in the same scenario in a little over a month is enough of a reason to be against these systems? 5 dogs have been admitted with severe bite wounds since january, 3 were enclosed by electric fences, 1 was attacked at a shelter and one was attacked by two other dogs in a completely open garden.

So you had 19 seperate dogs, 16 rta and 3 mauled. What if all 19 were enclosed in electric fences. What about all the dogs that are killed by rta's and don't make it to the vets. Would the electric fence system not save more hardship than it causes?

I live in the real world, where surrounding your property with 7 foot high walls is not an option.

summer_ina_bowl

Boggles wrote: »

surrounding your property with 7 foot high walls is not an option.

It doesn't have to be seven foot high, ANY physical barrier capable of keeping a dog in, will deter any size dog from entering, it may not stop them all, but it will put off most wanderers.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Would the electric fence system not save more hardship than it causes?

You never answered the question?

summer_ina_bowl

sure it might prevent some RTAs, BUT a conventional, PHYSICAL barrier would be better. Why half do a job, if you're gonna force the dog to stay in, at least try to keep it safe while there as well.

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

sure it might prevent some RTAs, BUT a conventional, PHYSICAL barrier would be better. Why half do a job, if you're gonna force the dog to stay in, at least try to keep it safe while there as well.

Because a barrier most of the time is not practical, so you agree that electric fences will save dogs lives?

summer_ina_bowl

yes, electric fences will save dogs lives where RTAs are involved but so would tying them to a post with a one metre leash, but thats not kind either.
duh, of course electric can 'save' lives, it's the quality of these lives that is to be debated.

electric fences stop the dog from getting out, they do not protect the dog.
the actual shock conditioning can lead to numerous health/mental problems - i do not believe that the pros outway the cons.

boggles, if it is not practical for you to protect the animals in your care, then perhaps you should rethink being a pet owner.

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

yes, electric fences will save dogs lives where RTAs are involved but so would tying them to a post with a one metre leash, but thats not kind either.
duh, of course electric can 'save' lives, it's the quality of these lives that is to be debated.

electric fences stop the dog from getting out, they do not protect the dog.
the actual shock conditioning can lead to numerous health/mental problems - i do not believe that the pros outway the cons.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

boggles, if it is not practical for you to protect the animals in your care, then perhaps you should rethink being a pet owner.

By your own "figures" you stated that an electric fence would save 5 times more dogs, "mental health" of a K9 aside, so would the pros still not outway the cons??

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

boggles, if it is not practical for you to protect the animals in your care, then perhaps you should rethink being a pet owner.

Your thinking is naive and narrow minded. Apply yourself to the real world please.

What makes you think I am a pet owner?

summer_ina_bowl

Boggles wrote: »

Your thinking is naive and narrow minded. Apply yourself to the real world please.......

No, my thinking is the kind of thinking that prioratises the animal, not the owners convenience. My thinking is born from working with the animals, those who are hurt physically or mentally due to the thinking of those who take on an animal purely for their sake and without due care for the creature.
And, i can assure you, that i could not possibly apply myself to the 'real' world any more than i do, there just aren't enough hours in the day.
I think its fair to say, i devote quite a bit of my time to the 'real' world, trying to undo the damage caused by irresponsible ownership.

OH? You aren't a pet owner!:D F*ck me, boggles thats the best piece of f*ckin news i've heard in ages!!! Whoop whoop!

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

No, my thinking is the kind of thinking that prioratises the animal, not the owners convenience. My thinking is born from working with the animals, those who are hurt physically or mentally due to the thinking of those who take on an animal purely for their sake and without due care for the creature.
And, i can assure you, that i could not possibly apply myself to the 'real' world any more than i do, there just aren't enough hours in the day.
I think its fair to say, i devote quite a bit of my time to the 'real' world, trying to undo the damage caused by irresponsible ownership.

OH? You aren't a pet owner!:D F*ck me, boggles thats the best piece of f*ckin news i've heard in ages!!! Whoop whoop!

I see by reading your replies that you think you are some type of Dr. Doolittle as you use every opportunity to point out that you are the saviour of animals through your sterling thankless work, (which in my experience you get better paid for than my local GP). People like you do so much more harm to animals and the sad thing is you think you are doing good. Blindly dismissing a perfectly acceptable alternative to protect ones pet, ultimately giving the best chance of the pet to stay alive and have the freedom to roam its territory.

Your ignorant opinion reminds me of the Churches views on sex before marriage, theoretically a brilliant idea, in practice stupid.

I just hope your dumb founded views do not put anyone off investing in this viable option to keeping your pet safe, as the majority of people would use the alternative of doing nothing.

As for attacking my ability to take care of a pet without knowing anything about me just cements my already low view of you.

summer_ina_bowl

Boggles wrote: »

your sterling thankless work, (which in my experience you get better paid for than my local GP). People like you do so much more harm to animals and the sad thing is you think you are doing good. .......a perfectly acceptable alternative .....
Your ignorant opinion ........I
your dumb founded views ...........
As for attacking my ability to take care of a pet without knowing anything about me just cements my already low view of you.

My work is not thankless.

I am not a vet, i am a vet nurse, and still a student at that. Well paid?? I work for less than minimum wage at the vets (even when i'm qualified, the money is no better than the average joe wage), i am obviously not paid for the work i do at the shelter where i volunteer and i use much of my unpaid free time fundraising for the shelter through college.

I am not here looking for praise or recognition for the work i do, but i would expect you to respect my opinions which are based on years of study and experience.

I have spent much time studying (outside the cirriculum) animal behaviour, training, and the merits of different training/restraint systems as it is these are the areas which interest me. This study was especially centered around the electric collar fence, as when i first started working with animals i was divided on its use.
My opinions are not ignorant. My views are not dumb founded.

If you look earlier in the thread you will see that most animal welfare organisations are against the use of electric collars.

As for me attacking your ability to care for a pet without knowing you? You've made alot of assumptions too - pot, kettle, black.

Oh, and for fear it might hinder your sleep at night, i'm not at all bothered about your 'low view' of me, I don't need the approval of an ignoramus to justify what i do.

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

but i would expect you to respect my opinions which are based on years of study and experience.

What wise opinions would that be? You havn't given one practical alternative to the electric fence system. I'm Listening?

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

I am not here looking for praise or recognition for the work i do

Oh Yeah.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

Rodney, Trotter, "sounds like a fairytale"? "untrue"?, tell me that again when you're the blood soaked person doin CPR on a dying dog who has been bleeding for hours while it's owner was at work, tell me that when for the third time you're the one re-opening wounds so that the infection can be drained out, tell me that when after a week of all your best efforts that dog dies, and you're the one who has the displeasure of breakin the news to the owner and kid. The last one was called Jack, by the way, a little Jack Russel cross who was attacked by the neighbours labrador.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

And, i can assure you, that i could not possibly apply myself to the 'real' world any more than i do, there just aren't enough hours in the day.

You sound like a regular true movie of the week to me.

summer_ina_bowl

i said my opinions validity was based on study and experience, i'm not so precocious as to call them wise.

a physical barrier - a wall, a fence, a pen, a run, a kennel
train the dog, teach it its boundaries - reward or clicker based training can give really good consistent results when done well

you do realise that the 'no escape' scenario isn't the only reason i am against the use of these fences? the actual conditioning is cruel, the results are inconsistent, the conditioning can lead to many mental health complications and irrational fears. i've come across many dogs enclosed by these systems who have a fear of being touched around the neck, i've heard of dogs being so traumatised by the flags that they'll attack any fluttering material they come into contact with - washing on a line, curtains, clothing... If you're gonna make an attempt to enclose your dog, and your sole purpose is to restrain the dog when you're not there and not protect it, then why not just use a long leash - at least the dog then understands what is restraining it, if introduced to leashes at a young age, this method would not distress it as electirc shocks must do, and it would be far less likely to have so many unpleasant consequences.

Taking on a dog should not be taken lightly. You have a huge responsibility to that animal, if it is not practical for you to provide thorough care, then perhaps you should set about rehoming it.

You know what, you are vexing boggles. If you think that i am not telling the truth because the story isn't plausible, then somewhere along the line, you have been grossly misinformed. What do you think i would have to gain from coming to this forum and lying about what i do and the cases i've handled? i posted in this thread to contribute my opinion on the electric collar system, i used the 'no escape' point as the other anti-system posters had already covered the majority of other cons. Your just hounding me now, and if, as you say people like me are doing so much harm to animals, then perhaps people like you should pull the finger out and do something so that people like me didn't have to.
As i said i'm not looking for praise and recognition for the work i do, but i wasn't looking for degradation/hostility/patronisation for it either.

Boggles

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

a physical barrier - a wall, a fence, a pen, a run, a kennel

Expensive to construct, a wall or fence can run to thousands depending on the size of the area to enclose. It may not be possible because of planning permission or it may not be physically possible to build a boundary, etc. A pen and a kennel would not be large enough to house a dog for a long period of time and would be seen as cruelty. I have constructed several dog runs, these are also expensive and even at large sizes of 12x12 are not ideal to house a dog for 24 hours. There is no perfect boundaries, animals quite frequently escape or enter premises due to the ability to jump the boundary or a gate or door being left open.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

train the dog, teach it its boundaries - reward or clicker based training can give really good consistent results when done well

It only takes one inconsistency for the dog to get into trouble.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

you do realise that the 'no escape' scenario isn't the only reason i am against the use of these fences? the actual conditioning is cruel, the results are inconsistent, the conditioning can lead to many mental health complications and irrational fears. i've come across many dogs enclosed by these systems who have a fear of being touched around the neck, i've heard of dogs being so traumatised by the flags that they'll attack any fluttering material they come into contact with - washing on a line, curtains, clothing...

It's statements like this that do more harm than good for pet owners and animals, the conditioning is quicker than any other method, the animal only gets shocked during initial training and with flag and audio warnings the results from my experience are fantastic, resulting in very happy animals who are free to roam their territory but are also fully aware of their boundaries. Saying the electric fence system is "inconsistent" while also saying that having no boundary is "consistent" is misleading and very dishonest.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

If you're gonna make an attempt to enclose your dog, and your sole purpose is to restrain the dog when you're not there and not protect it, then why not just use a long leash - at least the dog then understands what is restraining it, if introduced to leashes at a young age, this method would not distress it as electirc shocks must do, and it would be far less likely to have so many unpleasant consequences.

This is where you are starting to do real damage, chaining the dog up?? Were you enclosed for a time in an electric fence system and have developed mental problems?, how you can advocate chaining a dog up and say it is the better alternative to what I'm suggesting is beyond belief.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

Taking on a dog should not be taken lightly. You have a huge responsibility to that animal, if it is not practical for you to provide thorough care, then perhaps you should set about rehoming it.

Brilliant mantra and advice, you have used it a few times now. I compared it to the Churches views on sex before marriage. Animals are a privilege not a right, blah, blah, blah. Unfortunately people think animals are a right and you lecturing them on what they have to do instead of trying to get them to use proactive proven methods to protect the animal again results in the alternative of nothing being done.

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

You know what, you are vexing boggles.

You got personal with name calling and belittling me with bad language without having the faintest idea of who I am. Or my experience with animals. You are obviously rude, opinionated, narrow minded and tragically of all in your St. Frances head your thinking you are doing good. As I have said, I hope people reading your ignorance do not dismiss this excellent alternative, I'm sure they won't as you do come off quite clearly as a loon.

Please don't bother replying, I could sit here all day tearing your stupidity apart, but I do not believe in cruelty to animals.

summer_ina_bowl

Boggles wrote: »

Unfortunately people think animals are a right...

And thats the problem.
Condolences boggles.

My apologies to the OP (and mods) for taking the thread away from the topic and into a row. I was trying to add to an already well populated list of reasons as to why to avoid radio fencing as opposed to choosing a brand. For the record, its a valid point, the 'no escape' scenario isn't a made up story, i wish it was.
Once again though, sorry, should have taken the argument to pm befor it got to the stage where i became a doolittle/st francis/animal hybrid.:rolleyes:

Trx

Lads , Can we start discussing this again....

No off topic posters this time tho .....