Bupa 10k, Sunday April 6th

ditpoker

This is on one week before the london marathon (which will be my first marathon). Should the bupa 10k be something i include, i.e. my last long run before the marathon!?

hunnymonster

sounds good to me as part of a planned taper. Just don't get carried away with the race atmosphere and go off too fast.

robbicosta

London will be my sixth marathon. Planning on giving the Bupa 10k a good go before hand. I'm putting in a good bit of training for London so hoping to beat my 3:56 PB. Best of luck ditpoker.

Racing Flat

ditpoker wrote: »

This is on one week before the london marathon (which will be my first marathon). Should the bupa 10k be something i include, i.e. my last long run before the marathon!?

IMO No, No, No, No, No!
i.e. I definitely would not race 7 days before a marathon. Everyone's different I suppose, but a half marathon 5 weeks before, then 2 weeks of normal training before a 3 week taper works for me. The race will use up energy and be in your system, and it's too late for it to have any fitness gain, so IMO it can have no advantage for your marathon time and only have no effect or impair performance. By all means jog the race, but I definitely wouldn't race it. Rest, save your energy and give the marathon a good lash. I find the taper deadly, dying to go out to run hard, the mind starts to play tricks on me and I feel like I'm losing fitness, but you've got to put trust in the training you've done. You might think it's only a 10k but it can stay in your legs and you don't want to be feeling tired and sluggish in your last week. I would probably just do a very easy 10mile the weekedn before then Mon 6 miles, Tues 5miles, Wed rest, Thurs 3 miles, Fri Rest Sat 1mile Sunday marathon.
Good luck.

Stupid_Private

You were right with "everyone's different". I wouldn't dream of tapering for 3 weeks, maybe if I'd been putting in 120 miles a week* 2 or 3 weeks would be fine. Personally I'd do one week to a week and a half tapering. Before Dublin last year I did a 13 mile training run on the Wednesday before and it did me no harm at all. Without knowing the mileage and training structure someone is doing it's not really possible to tell them how to taper.

Ideally I'd race the weekend before but sometimes it's tough to find the right race that'd suit you. 5k to 10k on the road should be fine.

*I am nowhere close to being able to run 120 miles a week!!

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Ideally I'd race the weekend before but sometimes it's tough to find the right race that'd suit you. 5k to 10k on the road should be fine.
quote]


IMO....No, No, No, No, No!;)

Right we agree everyone's different, but what is to gain by running a race? And what is to lose?

I really think all it can do is give you confidence, it's too late to have an effect on fitness, but the confidence gained comes at a price - depletion of energy, physical and mental. I've heard it said that for every mile you race it takes a day to recover so a 10k race will be in your leg for 6 days (I know, I know, everyone's different, but rule of thumb). People talk about training down/tapering - this you don't do for a minor race, but a marathon is generally a major target for someone, so why not rest up, build up energy stores, be mentally fresh for the competition of the race, so that you do better in the race? I'm climbing the walls the few days before the marathon, so much energy, dying to go, so when the gun goes, all that energy comes out. If I was your coach I wouldn't let you race;).

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Before Dublin last year I did a 13 mile training run on the Wednesday before and it did me no harm at all. /quote]

:eek:

Maybe it did...maybe you'd have done a better time without the 13? Once again, IMO all a run like this can do is deplete energy stores, without having an effect on your fitness in time for the marathon. Am I wrong?

ditpoker

interesting views... can i kinda switch this to a tapering question now...
i would have no intention of RACING the bupa 10k, but just using it as a venue for my 10k run the week before hand...

currently i do, mon/tue/thur about 30-40mins. and then on saturday a long run. last week was 10k, this week is 10m... im coming from zero running but alot of cycling and football prior to january...think i did my first "jog" on Dec 30th. my intention would be to keep the mon/tue/thurs, long run weekend schedule, but im realistic and know that in two weeks i'll be back playing football (i cant make my matches for next two weeks) so will have to put my long runs mid week...

as for tapering back my training... what would people recommend... im flying to london on the friday, i was thinking bupa 10k on the sunday, and maybe a 3m or 4m on the wednesday in the last week.

Stupid_Private

Racing Flat wrote: »

maybe you'd have done a better time without the 13? Once again, IMO all a run like this can do is deplete energy stores, without having an effect on your fitness in time for the marathon. Am I wrong?

I wouldn't advise anyone to do that if they haven't been doing a fair whack of mileage prior. The idea as far as I remember was to deplete the energy stores somewhat after winding down for the past few days so the body would store more. I can't say if this is the exact reason why it was done, kind of makes sense to me, my coach told me to do it and I did it. Looking back at that marathon I don't think I could have gone faster.

tunney

Tapering does not mean resting, it doesn't mean you don't training.

Most people *think* they understand the concept of tapering but get it horribly wrong. Research it properly. Follow a plan.

Recovery time from a 10km is, at best, 6 days. At best, for an experienced runner.

Clum

ditpoker wrote: »

i would have no intention of RACING the bupa 10k, but just using it as a venue for my 10k run the week before hand...

So long as you keep that mentallity throughout the run then go for it.

From what you've posted you seem newish to the whole running scene. The Bupa run attracts somewhere around 7 or 8 thousand entrants. London has something like 33000 participants. If you haven't run in a mass participant event before then jogging around phoenix park at a leisurely pace in the middle of a large crowd will prepare you nicely for the mind boggling size of the london marathon crowd. There's a lot to be learned about these large events such as using toilet facilities and bag drops before the races, and making it to the starting line, when there are thousands of folk trying to do the same thing all at the same time.

Just take it easy.

hunnymonster

Racing flat, could you just clarify for me what you mean by "energy stores"? Muscle/Liver glycogen? With care, this can be replaced after 48 hours. The bigger problem with running before an "A" race is oxidative muscular damage. For example, in one study of trained athletes, showed their peak hamstring torques were still reduced 48 hours after a maximal effort 10km. OF course specific drills can be included in training to reduce this kind of thing, but I don't think that is the level the OP was looking for.

Tunney, Some people do get the concept of a taper wrong, but I think it's stretching it to say most people do. For people (nerdy people like me) who want to know more, a good starting point is
"Effects of tapering on performance: A meta-analysis, source: MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IN SPORTS AND EXERCISE Volume: 39 Issue: 8 Pages:Published: 2007 1358-1365 "


OP, you've got to weigh up the pro's an con's, some mentioned so far are

pros
race experience
chance to test your race day equipment, feeding etc
you would probably be doing a run of similar distance as part of a planned taper

cons
risk of injury
temptation to hammer it and not stick to your planned pace.

Racing Flat

ditpoker wrote: »

i would have no intention of RACING the bupa 10k, but just using it as a venue for my 10k run the week before hand...

as for tapering back my training... what would people recommend... im flying to london on the friday, i was thinking bupa 10k on the sunday, and maybe a 3m or 4m on the wednesday in the last week.

That's better! Run it don't race it. Expensive way to do it, but as said belwo wil give you experience re running in crowds, pre-race prep etc., but IMO you'd have been better off doing this sooner e.g. Ballycotton 10 (2,500 people but crowded due to the narrow starting area). so that you'd have time to experiment with your new found knowledge - e.g. if you have porridge on the morning of the 10k and it doesn't sit well, you don't have much opportunity to experiemnt with other pre-race meals...

Lots of views on tapering. Brendan O'Shea (Irish Runner) usually recommends a gradual wind down of 6,5,4,3,2 miles in the final week. Norrie Williamson encourages speed work - 6x400, 5x400, 4x400, 3x400 in the days leading up - reducing quantity but maintaining a modicum of quality.
Generally though you want to reduce the quantity and probably quality. Some people put a percentage on this, so it will depend on your current training - no point in doing the Brendan O'Shea one which is 20miles or so if you only run 15miles a week. I would aim for about 50-60% of your max quantity in the final week and I would do it all at easy jogging pace, maybe on teh Wednesday before do a few mins at marathon race pace just to remind myself what it feels like. Everyone's different though - you'll learn from experience. the link given by ?hummymonster below probably a good resource.

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

The idea as far as I remember was to deplete the energy stores somewhat after winding down for the past few days so the body would store more. I can't say if this is the exact reason why it was done, kind of makes sense to me, my coach told me to do it and I did it. Looking back at that marathon I don't think I could have gone faster.

Speaking to a few of the older runners at my club, they used to do this - called it 'blooding the legs'. They's do a hard 22miler the Wednesday before weekend marathon!:eek: Thought they were using up all the blood so they'd get 'new' (I suppose reoxygenated) blood for the race. Now they all say it was crazy and just tired them out, but when everyone else was doing it they were afraid not to! They would not recommend it now.

Next came the carb loading craze, whereby people would deplete energy stores as much as possible by running hard, not eating carbohydrates and then they would eat loads of carbs. This was so that the body would 'cling onto' the carbs having been depleted previously, but I think this has been discounted now as not having any additional benefit, in any case it doesn't seem to be practised as much. Having a regular consistent supply of complex carbs in the diet seems to be more advised. I wouldn't recommend this diet or hard/long runnign in the few days before the marathon.

Racing Flat

hunnymonster wrote: »

Racing flat, could you just clarify for me what you mean by "energy stores"? Muscle/Liver glycogen? With care, this can be replaced after 48 hours. The bigger problem with running before an "A" race is oxidative muscular damage.

Hunnymonster, you are correct in picking me up on my usage of the term. Maybe 'running yourself down' would have been a better term to incorporate heaviness in legs (?oxidative muscle damage) I'm sure you're correct in that you can restore muscle/liver glycogen in 48hours, but why deplete it in the first place - why not keep it nice and regular if you are not going to get a fitness benefit, save your mental and physical energy by not racing? I see fellows all the time training hard on the Tuesday before a race and then not doing all that great in the race, so I think that the effect of 'resting up' ie not training too hard on performance is underestimated. But I'm fairly new to this, basing my knowledge on personal experience, chatting to lots of other runners and reading a number of running books, but by no means an expert. Glad to be corrected...

hunnymonster

Thanks, racing flat, you would be amazed how quickly you start to see a degeneration in fitness. 48 hours without exercise and it's already measureable. Tapering is a fine balance between not losing fitness while at the same time being rested/adapted enough for the race. I don't know the perfect answer and it's so long since I ran a marathon that I don't know where that balance is for myself, let alone anyone else.

All sorts of things were the convention in marathon running until recently. When my partner started (long before me), people thought you were mad to drink during a race. Now a 6% CHO drink is accepted as the norm and the current debate is to the benefit of adding PRO to the CHO. It will take us scientists another while to really sort that particular one out.

Stupid_Private

Racing Flat wrote: »

Speaking to a few of the older runners at my club, they used to do this - called it 'blooding the legs'. They's do a hard 22miler the Wednesday before weekend marathon!:eek:

That's some crazy running alright. The 13 I did was a far cry from a hard pace!

--amadeus--

I never get the taper right - it's like my head says taper = no running rather than taper = less running...

From what I have read the advice is to maintain intensity but reduce frequency / length. So (for example) if you normally have a 10 mile run @ PMP then do a 5 miler instead. This way you retain confidence and fitness without tiring yourself out.

But whatever plan you are following will have a taper built in - follow it and you'll be fine.

thirtyfoot

I'd recommend the Treacy '84 taper where you run a gruelling 10k on the track and then a few days later run a 2:09 olympic silver medal debut marathon, mental stuff and not to be advised:D. I wonder did he have a plan.