Under Trapattoni are we better than 2002?

estebancambias

(Got this idea from another forum)

The argument about how good the current crop of Ireland players is, is a question which causes a lot of divide on here.

So which manager inherited a better squad, Mick McCarthy's 2002 team, or Trapattoni's 2010 team?

This quote which I feel best sums it up is this:

''There's far more potential in this team than the 2002 one indivually but collectively there's still a lot of work to be done''(Jmurphyc, foot.ie)

The 2002 team had much more leaders(Holland, Cunningham, Kinsella, Keane, Staunton and even Quinn)

I feel we have the potential to be more expansive and creative than that team, but we don't have the strength and power of the 2002 team which is probably what Scotland are now(tough team to beat, physical etc.)

What we have to remember is that all teams go through what we have experienced over the past (will be) eight years.

Where the hell were Greece until 2004? Until they got Rehaggel they hadn't qualified for a tournament since 1994.

Don't tell me that Greece team had more talent than Irelands current team!!! Like Des can say Duff has found his level, or Given is not truly world class, but Greece didn't even have these players. Some of their players got chances after that euro 2004, like Basinas, Charisteas, Seitaridis; it was shown they really were not all that good.

They didn't win that tournament because of great talent or even because they had a very good group of players, they won it because they were well organised and had good guidance, something we have lacked over at least the last 2 years, perhaps even longer. They failed to qualify for 2006, but came back stronger in 2008, qualifying with 31 points, although their seeding helps.

I'm not saying the man will win us the world cup, or even get there, but we do have the raw materials to develop into a nice team, who are well capable of qualifying. Like we finished behind the Germans, and the Czech Republic, they were no mugs. We still finished third, its not like we are Wales here.



*DAMN FORGOT TO ADD A POLL* BTW, the point about Greece is hugely important. There was no youth championship wins for Greece either, so its not like they had a new batch of new guys coming through.

estebancambias

Well he was the captain of Ipswich.




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BaZmO*

estebancambias wrote: »

The 2002 team had much more leaders(Holland, Cunningham, Kinsella, Keane, Staunton and even Quinn)

Holland was a leader???:eek::eek::eek:

estebancambias

A comment which I feel is on the money:

''The problem is that most other countries, especially the third, fourth and fifth seeded teams are generally better too. I think the standard of athleticism in particular has increased markedly.

I think trap has the makings of a very good team though but there are a few gaps to be filled and a few imbalances to be rectified.

Regardless of the standard of player we had in 2001 and 2002, that team was a really well balanced team, with every position (bar Duff upfront) filled by a natural in that position, and every little part of the team complementing each other, every partnership, every triangle etc..''

Tusky

Under Trapattoni I would say we would be on a similar level to Spain & Holland.

eirebhoy

2002

---

Keane ---- Duff

---

Kilbane --- Holland --- Kinsella --- Finnan
Harte --- Staunton -- Breen

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G.Kelly

---

Given

---

2008

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Keane --- Doyle

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McGeady --- Reid --- Reid ---- Duff
Kilbane --- O'Shea -- Dunne -- S.Kelly

---

Given

---

I'll refrain from putting S.Ireland in and going 4-5-1 just to keep it simple.

In 2002 we had a much better defence. Player for player in every other position I'd take the 2008 player. It was a very good team and each player knew each other inside out but in terms of individual talent that midfield was very, very average.

estebancambias

You were quite active in that thread eirebhoy.....flying the flag. Again though the latest team looks so much better on paper to me as well.

thebaz

its been a long time since i've been so confident about the Irish National team -- damn, maybe not since 1990 -- the FAI have actually done something right

GuanYin

I sincerely doubt, looking at his past record, that Trap will play 4-4-2.

I imagine he *might* go for something like:

---

Doyle

---

---

Duff

---

Keane

---

A.Reid---

---

S.Reid

---

Carsley

---

Kilbane

---

O'Shea

---

Dunne

---

Kelly

---

Given

---

In any case, I'd disagree about balance in the 2002 WC. I remember Reid and Finnan and Harte being messed around with, position wise and how he justified keeping Harte in the starting 11 I'll never fathom.

I think simply put, as a defensive unit, the 2002 was far superior to Kerr and Staunton's teams. We're missing players of the quality we hand in central defence in 2002. That Breen/Staunton pairing was our second choice because of Cunningham's injury.

For the first time since Hand, we have poor cover in the full back area. On the plus side, we probably have more striker choices than we have since the Italia 90.

Our midfield, while not up to the standard of our '88-'90 vintage, is probably as strong in depth and compared with just about every squad since the early 90's, we have an embarassment of choice.

With Duff, Andy Reid, Steven Reid, Ireland (maybe), Carsley, McGeady and I guess the likes of Potter, Kilbane and even O'Shea as emergency cover, it will be interesting to see what Trap goes with.

eirebhoy

Forget your leaders of limited ability. List the best player for each premiership team and 4 or 5 out of the 20 would be Irish. We certainly couldn't say that back in 2002.

As for Traps team. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't pick McGeady vs Serbia. I also think Andy Reid's game has changed too much to play him in an advanced role. He's now a deep lying playmaker and I wouldn't play him in an attacking role. Pirlo was an attacking player up until about Reid's age too.

estebancambias

PSI I think your team could be very close to the team Trapattoni puts out, but to be honest I hope not, as I feel we would be missing out on some much needed spark. However your team might have more practacality, seeing as a team with McGeady, Andy Reid, Duff, Ireland and Keane might not have any balance.

The formation I think we all agree on, as eirebhoy pointed out, he goes with that 4-2-3-1 formation.

GuanYin

eirebhoy wrote: »

As for Traps team. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't pick McGeady vs Serbia. I also think Andy Reid's game has changed too much to play him in an advanced role. He's now a deep lying playmaker and I wouldn't play him in an attacking role. Pirlo was an attacking player up until about Reid's age too.

I know

The problem with Andy Reid is that we have no suitable midfield partner for him. Put him beside Carsley and you're asking for trouble in midfield. Steven Reid just isn't the type of player to make up for his style of play. Maybe put in Steven Reid, Carsley and Andy, but then you lose someone More attacking. Who? You're left with only three from Duff or Ireland or McGeady or Keane or Doyle.

The other option is to leave him out. What then, we've lost our most creative and intelligent player. Our best passer.

Vokes

estebancambias wrote: »

(Got this idea from another forum)

The argument about how good the current crop of Ireland players is, is a question which causes a lot of divide on here.

So which manager inherited a better squad, Mick McCarthy's 2002 team, or Trapattoni's 2010 team?[/quote]McCarthy inherited a better squad (in '96) i think. Also think his WC 02 team is better than the current one.

Don't tell me that Greece team had more talent than Irelands current team!!! Like Des can say Duff has found his level, or Given is not truly world class, but Greece didn't even have these players. Some of their players got chances after that euro 2004, like Basinas, Charisteas, Seitaridis; it was shown they really were not all that good.

They didn't win that tournament because of great talent or even because they had a very good group of players, they won it because they were well organised and had good guidance, something we have lacked over at least the last 2 years, perhaps even longer. They failed to qualify for 2006, but came back stronger in 2008, qualifying with 31 points, although their seeding helps.

C'mon now. Good organisation is a talent in itself, and that didn't come from just the coach. Greece were blessed with a number of leaders who could organise the team to achieve more than the sum of its parts.

I'm not saying the man will win us the world cup, or even get there, but we do have the raw materials to develop into a nice team, who are well capable of qualifying. Like we finished behind the Germans, and the Czech Republic, they were no mugs. We still finished third, its not like we are Wales here.

Agreed.


eirebhoy, as much i rate S. Reid, I reckon given his injuries, he's not going to feature much for Ireland. We need a younger, all-action CM to now step up, as this is the area that needs fixing first.

Helix

lets hang on and wait til he actually takes charge of a few games

eirebhoy

SofaKing wrote: »

eirebhoy, as much i rate S. Reid, I reckon given his injuries, he's not going to feature much for Ireland. We need a younger, all-action CM to now step up, as this is the area that needs fixing first.

I don't know if we could trust a young midfielder to play in a midfield without Carsley (because of our lack of combative players). And if Carsley plays I don't see any room for that young central midfielder. atm for me S.Reid and Carsley are the only safe enough options for me to partner A.Reid and I'd much rather the former.

Xavi6

I wouldn't be thinking that this team is better than the '02 one.

In 2002 we had Damien Duff at his absolute best, terrifying full backs and actually having pace. Now we don't have that. He was our most potent threat and we don't have someone in our squad now who is that frightening (I include McGeady in that)

At the back I think Richard Dunne is better than any of the '02 centre halves BUT he doesn't have a suitable partner now and ends up doing the work of two players when playing alongside the likes of McShane. And whatever people say about Ian Harte, at least he was a natural left back unlike Kilbane who is a liability playing there. We also don't have Finnan (at the moment).

The one thing we do have going for us is creativity in the middle of the park, however I don't feel we have the necessary defensive midfielder to balance it out. We need a Kinsella/Holland/younger Carsley to give hte likes of A. Reid and maybe Ireland the freedom but I don't know where it's going to come from.

Pigman II

Well to my mind that side of 1998-02 is the best Ireland TEAM we've ever had. It's the only time our country has displayed passion, skill & toughness but in doing so still delivered consistent displays and results. They were a joy to watch.

I doubt Trap can match those performances with this current crop of 'superstars'. There's too much ego under the bridge at this point. However if could even make us 90% as good as Micks lot in their prime then I'd be wildly satisfied. He'd have stopped a major rot.

eirebhoy

Xavi6 wrote: »

The one thing we do have going for us is creativity in the middle of the park, however I don't feel we have the necessary defensive midfielder to balance it out. We need a Kinsella/Holland/younger Carsley to give hte likes of A. Reid and maybe Ireland the freedom but I don't know where it's going to come from.

I really believe a Reid-Reid partnership is perfect, especially in Traps defensive system. Both players are now positionally sound. Much more so than Gerrard and Lampard and I really believe that. That's the most important thing from a defensive point of view, positioning. Carsley averages about 2 tackles a game so actual tackling ability really isn't that important. I think the 2 Reid's are intelligent and disciplined enough to sit back and let the players ahead of them do the main attacking work. That's the roles they now have with their clubs too.

I wouldn't be so sure of Trap going with a Carsley type defensive midfielder. He rarely started with Gattuso.

PHB

Both the reads are barely central midfielders, both possibly being better on the wing. I think Carsley has to never play for United again, no doubt about that, but I think we have to consider a different option. Personally, I'm not hugely opposed to a 3 man midfield, including maybe O'Shea, Reid, and Ireland. Put Duff and McGeady/Reid on the other wing, and Keano up front.

Please god, stop playing Carsley though. I'd love to see O'Hara in there though, that'd be great

Xavi6

PHB wrote: »

Both the reads are barely central midfielders, both possibly being better on the wing. I think Carsley has to never play for United again, no doubt about that, but I think we have to consider a different option. Personally, I'm not hugely opposed to a 3 man midfield, including maybe O'Shea, Reid, and Ireland. Put Duff and McGeady/Reid on the other wing, and Keano up front.

Please god, stop playing Carsley though. I'd love to see O'Hara in there though, that'd be great

Got your wrong hat on there

eirebhoy

PHB wrote: »

Both the reads are barely central midfielders, both possibly being better on the wing.

No chance imo. Natural central midfielders. Keep an eye on Steven Reid this season. His movement and positioning is fantastic. I'm really surprised how much of a playmaker he looked against Arsenal. Although his distribution wasn't great. I was even more surprised how confident he looked. He was always demanding possession.

Warning... useless stat alert - Against Bolton (away from home) Reid played central midfield beside Dunn. Bentley and Pedersen on the wings. Blackburn had the majority of possession and Reid played more passes than any of the Blackburn midfielders (and probably all players). Blackburn won the match. If Reid wasn't capable of playing central midfield Blackburn would not have won, or had majority of possession away from home, with such an attacking midfield as that.

His game is a lot different now and I certainly wouldn't be playing himself or Andy on the wing. Andy even more so. I don't think he's capable of playing on the wing. He'd just get so frustrated watching mediocrity in midfield that he'd come inside and take over.

estebancambias

Does anyone think Long could actually develop into a really good player? I think we might have to wait a bit, but I really think he will come good.

Apparently he only start playing football at 13, so his growth has been explosive.

evad_lhorg

as a squad that was inherited...... 2002 included Roy Keane. without him there proabbly wouldnt have been a 2002 world cup to go to. sure things happened and they had the team after but I dont see us having as strong a squad now as we did then because teamwork seems to be out the window at the moment. hopefully it will get sorted and me proved wrong but that's my thoughts.

estebancambias

C'mon now. Good organisation is a talent in itself, and that didn't come from just the coach. Greece were blessed with a number of leaders who could organise the team to achieve more than the sum of its parts.



Fair enough and good point, but where was this before 2004? Dellas, Nikopolidis, Zagorakis, Bassinas, Zagorakis were all in their late 20's/early 30's by 2003/2004. Greece finished with 7 points in the 2002 qualification for world cup.

eirebhoy

Liam Lawrence at Stoke must be considered for at least a squad place. 12 goals and 15 assists this season.

luckylucky

Pigman II wrote: »

Well to my mind that side of 1998-02 is the best Ireland TEAM we've ever had. It's the only time our country has displayed passion, skill & toughness but in doing so still delivered consistent displays and results. They were a joy to watch.

They certainly were one of the best Teams we had and I would say probably the best team to watch. I think under McCarthy we definitely played some exciting football at times, if it wasn't for some of his selections particularly sticking with a totally out of form Ian Harte in Japan I would have been quite happy for McCarthy to stay in charge... anyway that's a whole different discussion.

I guess a lot of you young uns don't remember back as far as the early nineties. In my mind that side of the early 90's were our best ever. We were ranked our highest ever back around 1991. I believe at no.6 and what's more it was a fully justified ranking imo. When we failed to qualify for Sweden 92 after being by far the best team in our group. England being lucky to draw with us twice and somehow managing to fcuk up a 3-1 lead in Poland when we were totally on top. That was about the only time I think we had an Irish Team who actually had a realistic chance of being in the mix for winning something. They really were a team to be feared back then. McCarthy's team of 98-02 were a decent outfit who could give most teams a good game but they weren't world beaters like those guys were. I think Jack Charlton's one dimensional approach really failed to get the most out of them tbh. For a small country like ours those times when we are in with a genuine chance of winning something are normally once in a lifetime, it really was a shame we didn't qualify for that Euro 92, instead another small country Denmark had it's moment of glory. While after that we went into decline even before USA 94 imo.

leninbenjamin

luckylucky wrote: »

I think Jack Charlton's one dimensional approach really failed to get the most out of them tbh.

in fairness Jack had a lot more to contend with than simply getting performances out of them. they might have been the best bunch of players we had, but given the problems with attitude and drink and a set-up that makes the current FAI look world class any manager would have struggled with them i reckon.

this thread is completely pointless though. how can you judge a new manager without him having had even one game in charge? save it til 2010 lads...

luckylucky

leninbenjamin wrote: »

in fairness Jack had a lot more to contend with than simply getting performances out of them. they might have been the best bunch of players we had, but given the problems with attitude and drink and a set-up that makes the current FAI look world class any manager would have struggled with them i reckon...

I don't remember them having an attitude problem at all. If anything the general attitude was fantastic of those players. In regards to drink I know Paul mcGrath had a big drink problem, but I don't recall it affecting him on the pitch. I agree the FAI set-up was an even bigger shambles back then. Jack Charlton's basic style of play made us difficult to play against and it worked well in his early years with Ireland but I think in his latter days it hampered a very talented team and became more of a burden on them.

17 years ago is a fair bit ago I suppose, I was just 20 then, but that's my recollection of that era.

Anyways really looking forward to our next campaign. I think Trappatoni will be great for us, and at the worst Trappatoni's touchline antics alone will be priceless