VRT: The Irish are treated as second-class EU citizens.

trellheim

that 1.5 billion could be recouped easily by quadrupling or [whatever] the excise on fuel. You then have a proper "polluter pays" rather than a flat rate

e.g. I have a Lexus LS400 and drive < 4000 miles a year.

Joe Soap who drives 40000 miles a year in an LS400 pays the same VRT

but I pollute less.

shayser

Sat Navs, TVs, DVDs, Cameras. Footballs. Ice Cream. Why not just reintroduce import duty for everything. Works great with cars.

JHMEG

Quadruple the excise on fuel and within a year the country will be running on biodiesel, and you can't tax that too heavily as the greens are in govt...

Taxing aviation fuel would kill competition. No more cheap flights.. they'd all be expensive. I'm old enough to remember an average return flight to London with Aer Lingus costing £400, and the only alternative was "the boat".

Niall1234

Road tax for bicycles.

They essentially use the road for free.

JHMEG

mick.fr wrote: »

But Ireland relies 100% on foreign investments

The tax you're on about is corporation tax, not income tax. Corporation tax is 12.5% currently, and it attracts foreign industry. Right or wrong, it works.

OTOH, the French unemployment rate almost equals our corporation tax rate. I know which I'd prefer.

mick.fr

Yeah pointless thread anyway.
Do we really have the choice?

Anyway as I said like 2 months ago, I know a legal way that any individual living in Ireland can drive a brand new car without paying any tax and for a lot less than any system available in Ireland. Nobody ever sent me a PM to know more, so...

EU has some advantages :-)

mick.fr

Yeah pointless thread anyway.
Do we really have the choice?
Anyway as I said like 2 months ago, I know a legal way that any individual living in Ireland can drive a brand new car without paying any tax and for a lot less than any system available in Ireland. Nobody ever sent me a PM to know more, so...

EU has some advantages :-)

Niall1234

JHMEG wrote: »

The tax you're on about is corporation tax, not income tax. Corporation tax is 12.5% currently, and it attracts foreign industry. Right or wrong, it works.

OTOH, the French unemployment rate almost equals our corporation tax rate. I know which I'd prefer.

Coporation tax is a bit of an enigma. In the end, all money taken out of a company will have to be taxed under Schedule E or Case III Income Tax or in the case of a liquidation under CGT.

Corporation Tax is essentially a tax on retaining money within a company. It is at its heart, a disinsentive to hold cash in companies along with various "Close Company Provisions" for small companies.

mick.fr

JHMEG wrote: »

The tax you're on about is corporation tax, not income tax. Corporation tax is 12.5% currently, and it attracts foreign industry. Right or wrong, it works.

OTOH, the French unemployment rate almost equals our corporation tax rate. I know which I'd prefer.

Compare what is comparable.
Corp tax in France is over 33% and taxes on wages about 40% on high wages that are probably considered low or average in Ireland.
Give France a 12.5% on Corp. taxes and less wages taxes and it will fly.
But we are far to be here:-)

Noelie

mick.fr wrote: »

There are lots of possibilities, certainly not bananas.
Increase taxes on petrol, decrease tax credit, increase VAT, increase companies tax, etc...

Are you crazy, do you want everyone in the country to pay more tax and higher vat just so the rich can drive cheaper cars?

If VRT is removed it can only go on two things Petrol or Motor tax (obviously the yearly one) Petrol would go through the roof and would also encourage smuggling up north.

However i do feel it should not be added to safety features or to extras on the base cost of the car. The way it is not is kind of the fairest way the tax can be implemented, Small low polluting cars are taxed less and large high polluting cars are taxed more.

JHMEG

Niall1234 wrote: »

Coporation tax is a bit of an enigma. In the end, all money taken out of a company will have to be taxed under Schedule E or Case III Income Tax or in the case of a liquidation under CGT.

Corporation Tax is essentially a tax on retaining money within a company. It is at its heart, a disinsentive to hold cash in companies along with various "Close Company Provisions" for small companies.

What has any of that got to do with this thread, or VRT?

mick.fr

Noelie wrote: »

Are you crazy, do you want everyone in the country to pay more tax and higher vat just so the rich can drive cheaper cars?

Sound like a good plan to me lol

My point is that better spread tax will be easier for everybody.
Just some increases here and here will benefit to every one instead of having to pay crazy money to buy a new car.

E92

Any political party that tries to increase personal taxes gets nowhere in this country.

It is never going to happen.

Back on topic, the easiest solution to VRT is a tax on fuel. That way you pay for your pollution(which you only sort of under the new VRT system).

Given the amount of people importing, and the amount of people buying new cars, the are never going to even so much as think of reducing VRT, and rightly so. As long as we're stupid enough to buy new cars in the numbers we do, the Government certainly aren't going to touch it.

And in the interests of the planet, new cars most certainly should be taxed to reflect the fact that there is so much pollution involved in making new cars(it shouldn't be anything like as high as at the moment, but there should be a blanket tax of say 10%), and road tax rates should be standardised. A 5.0 V8 sitting in a driveway isn't doing any more damage than a 1.0 3 pot is, so a bit of reality is needed here.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

A 5.0 V8 sitting in a driveway isn't doing any more damage than a 1.0 3 pot is, so a bit of reality is needed here.

Probably 3 times more metal, including lots of aluminium, went into the 5 litre.

mikemac

Niall1234 wrote: »

Road tax for bicycles.

They essentially use the road for free.

Good point but seeing as there is no such thing as "road tax" then motorists don't pay road tax either.
Or did you mean motor tax?

Seth Brundle

JHMEG wrote: »

Probably 3 times more metal, including lots of aluminium, went into the 5 litre.

The government don't give a toss about its production (because the carbon usage doesn't affect the Irish total). They are only concerned about its purchase and its use.

macplaxton

Fundamental problems with VRT:

a) It hampers free movement of goods around the EU.
b) It taxes the ownership of the car and not the use.

The UK doesn't have a VRT, but it does have petrol at €1.40+ a litre. Take your pick.

JHMEG

kbannon wrote: »

The government don't give a toss about its production (because the carbon usage doesn't affect the Irish total). They are only concerned about its purchase and its use.

Pointing out to E92 that his 10% argument doesn't allow for the fact that bigger cars cost more, generally.

Nothing to do with this country.

Seth Brundle

macplaxton wrote: »

Fundamental problems with VRT:

a) It hampers free movement of goods around the EU.
b) It taxes the ownership of the car and not the use.

The UK doesn't have a VRT, but it does have petrol at €1.40+ a litre. Take your pick.

The UK does have a registration fee (a rose by any other name...)
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/DG_4022317
However, as with most countries in the EU, it is very little.

Padraig Mor

Noelie wrote: »

Are you crazy, do you want everyone in the country to pay more tax and higher vat just so the rich can drive cheaper cars?.

That's a bit arseways isn't it? At the moment motorists (especially those who buy new cars) are subsidising non-motorists through their extra contribution to general taxation. Why should someone who buys a new car be required to throw thousands into the health black hole for no other reason than they bought a car? Because they're "rich"? (surely they'll have private health insurance then?!). And is someone who buys a new Yaris "rich"? Where is the defining line for "rich"?

Tea drinker

Noelie wrote: »

Are you crazy, do you want everyone in the country to pay more tax and higher vat just so the rich can drive cheaper cars?

If VRT is removed it can only go on two things Petrol or Motor tax (obviously the yearly one) Petrol would go through the roof and would also encourage smuggling up north.

However i do feel it should not be added to safety features or to extras on the base cost of the car. The way it is not is kind of the fairest way the tax can be implemented, Small low polluting cars are taxed less and large high polluting cars are taxed more.

What has the governments missing 1.5 bill got to do with motorists? who gave anyone the right to profiteer off motorists?
The Tax is completely unfair, the Gov was already warned that it is a double tax and must be abolished! It is not inline with the rest of EU.
If the politicians can be pigheaded - so can we.
They have been dragging out any changes here because they know people will swallow a "green" tax, in particular the "rich" motorists you mentioned, especially as they probably don't pay VRT today and won't in the future. So as usual those least able to pay, pay.
And another thing, with the amount that motorists contribute indirectly to the economy, 1.5 bill on VRT plus yearly tax, why are they treted as second class citizens on the road - Stupid bus lanes to nowhere clogging up the roads.

alpina

My goodness how many more posts on VRT, it's here & obviously here to stay.
If we all stopped feeding the government, ie; put a stop on purchasing new cars for a period, would not matter, another tax/taxes would be introduced direct or indirect.

It rains in Ireland ~ we get ripped off ~ VRT is a pain ~ today is Monday

Smile..;);)

craichoe

mick.fr wrote: »

Sound like a good plan to me lol

My point is that better spread tax will be easier for everybody.
Just some increases here and here will benefit to every one instead of having to pay crazy money to buy a new car.

Will never happen.

Well .... i guess we could abolish VRT and wipe 30% of the value off everyones car since we could all purchase from good ol Germany. Or go to poland and buy a dodgy ex german car involved in a crash

Tipsy Mac

craichoe wrote: »

Will never happen.

Well .... i guess we could abolish VRT and wipe 30% of the value off everyones car since we could all purchase from good ol Germany. Or go to poland and buy a dodgy ex german car involved in a crash

Well unless you are retiring from driving or downgrading to some piece of $hit car you can only benefit as the price of your new car would be 30% cheaper.

The UK situation with €1.40 a litre fuel is a more environmentally friendly and fairer system in terms of the polluter pays and not the original purchaser.

Bee

JHMEG wrote: »

Those of you on this thread who are anti-VRT: where do you propose the €1.5 billion come from if VRT was abolished?

More cars would be sold (Greater VAT intake to the Gov)

A big issue, the elephant in the corner is the extremely high and growing import of second hand British cars, people import these as they get a higher specification car along with paying less in VRT. A tax loss to the Gov.

If VRT was removed there would be a highly increased sales of new cars as well as folk replacing their cars more frequently.

The increased sales along with extra jobs in the industry would more than compensate the Gov's tax coffers and most likley put them in surplus.

See how successful the economic growth has been when the Gov lowered various taxation rates. The same would apply to VRT

E92

Bee wrote: »

More cars would be sold (Greater VAT intake to the Gov)

A big issue, the elephant in the corner is the extremely high and growing import of second hand British cars, people import these as they get a higher specification car along with paying less in VRT. A tax loss to the Gov.

If VRT was removed there would be a highly increased sales of new cars as well as folk replacing their cars more frequently.

The increased sales along with extra jobs in the industry would more than compensate the Gov's tax coffers and most likley put them in surplus.

See how successful the economic growth has been when the Gov lowered various taxation rates. The same would apply to VRT

No VRT on used cars would never work: all you've got to do is bring over a "used"(read practically new) car with a few hundred miles and you would be practically be getting a brand new car and no VRT in sight.

Who in their right mind would buy a new car here then?

If VRT has to go, then what are we going to replace it with?

We seem to have threads about VRT, as well as foglights and boy racer rants every other day these days, it's getting extremely boring at this stage, anyone who is interested in cars knows all of these issues already, anyone who doesn't could they please search it as they've been covered to the ends of the earth already.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

If VRT has to go, then what are we going to replace it with?

Funny how no-one has a viable alternative to suggest.

Raising €1.5 billion extra from fuel for private cars would result in the litre of petrol/diesel going up by 50c, giving us a price of about €1.69 per litre (according to the AA). This would make us by far the dearest in Europe, if not the world, for fuel (as well as having a massive impact on the inflation index). Then the bitching would switch from VRT to fuel prices...

mick.fr

Irish are so proud of their EU surveys, very good workers, good production, second richest people in Europe after Luxemburg, almost top prices of the EU when it comes to price houses, etc...
So so, just pay the price now lol, cause you are all supposed to be much more wealthy that the average and even up mid class in Europe :-)

So after all what is an extra 20k on a car when an Irish man buy a car, it is like getting metallic paint for a Spanish. Nada :-) Well almost

JHMEG

No, we're actually not a wealthy country, but we're obsessed with the symbols of wealth. We prefer to have low taxes so we can spend silly amounts of money on flash cars, flash houses, flash mobile phones, and flash plasma TVs... rather than moderate/high taxes like Denmark, and have a first class country. Pretty much everything about this country is bottom of the class: health, transport, the list is virtually endless.

I'm actually glad now that we have VRT. Jeez we'd be totally screwed as a country otherwise.:eek:

Steve

E92 wrote: »

No VRT on used cars would never work: all you've got to do is bring over a "used"(read practically new) car with a few hundred miles and you would be practically be getting a brand new car and no VRT in sight.

Who in their right mind would buy a new car here then?

If VRT has to go, then what are we going to replace it with?

We seem to have threads about VRT, as well as foglights and boy racer rants every other day these days, it's getting extremely boring at this stage, anyone who is interested in cars knows all of these issues already, anyone who doesn't could they please search it as they've been covered to the ends of the earth already.

+1 please search - this has been discussed.

To summarise: the government was told to phase out VRT, they've no choice. It's not some "green" initiave -its an instruction from the EU. They are allowed to replace it with a "green" carbon based tax system which ultimately forces citizens to buy lower emission cars and still generate the same revenue - i.e. at the end of the day, emmissions drop and the motorist still pays the same. The whole "green" changeover is (in government terms) branded as "revenue neutral" which. in real terms, means that if everyone tomorrow was to buy a low emission car then they will just increase car tax until ther recoup the 1.3bn annual VRT revenue and at the same time try to convince commuters that it's better to go to work on the Dart and Luas which basically runs all day everyday on coal and peat!!!