VRT: The Irish are treated as second-class EU citizens.

Lord Nikon

Are we talking about VRT on imports or new cars.

Mmm, VRT on imports, your still saving money than buying the same model over here. Eh, no warranty(do you want to drive your broken car back to the uk), cloked car maybe??

Mmm, new car, well the price depreciates as soon as you buy it, and the newer it is the more you lose from it.

Be happy with your second hand car, or buy an import, pay the damn tax, and still save some money.

The only people would harper on about VRT are those who are either importing or buying new, a lot of us are doing neither, so meh.

smash

Niall1234 wrote: »

E92. Your wrong on your assumptions. By right the Irish Government should scrap VRT.

The same is happening on the Water Rates for schools things. They are under as much obligation under EU rules to have Water Rates on schools. Funnilly enough they are taking no chances here and are slapping the Water Rates on schools.

The faster some group take a case to the some EU court regarding the illegal nature of VRT in Ireland the better.

Motor dealers have taken this to court before... and lost! end of - it's an illegal stealth tax that is changing in July, so it will be completely legal - yet ridiculous.

Lord Nikon

How is it changing in July, just car tax is, isnt it.

daRobot

neuromancer wrote: »

Are we talking about VRT on imports or new cars.

Mmm, VRT on imports, your still saving money than buying the same model over here. Eh, no warranty(do you want to drive your broken car back to the uk), cloked car maybe??

Eh, European warranty on cars bought it the uk as it's , Eh, Eu law

craichoe

stevec wrote: »

+1 please search - this has been discussed.

To summarise: the government was told to phase out VRT, they've no choice. It's not some "green" initiave -its an instruction from the EU. They are allowed to replace it with a "green" carbon based tax system which ultimately forces citizens to buy lower emission cars and still generate the same revenue - i.e. at the end of the day, emmissions drop and the motorist still pays the same. The whole "green" changeover is (in government terms) branded as "revenue neutral" which. in real terms, means that if everyone tomorrow was to buy a low emission car then they will just increase car tax until ther recoup the 1.3bn annual VRT revenue and at the same time try to convince commuters that it's better to go to work on the Dart and Luas which basically runs all day everyday on coal and peat!!!

They weren't instructed, it has been recommended. The EU can't force a country to do anything. If thats the case we'd have a uniform tax rate across europe.

Also, cars here in Holland are 30% more expensive than in Germany (a hop over the border) due to the tax loaded on by the tax authority.

So its not an Irish thing.

I think you will find owning a car in Ireland is ALOT cheaper than owning a car in other european countries.

Sure while where at it why don't we get the EU to dump the Common Agricultural Policy, thats just as ridiculous.

Give me a break ffs... driving a car is going to get more and more expensive and everyone is just going to have to accept that.

On another note, Emissions based taxation has been brought in now in Holland and the cost of a Hummer has risen by 98,000 euro as a result. Its about time, the things look ridiculous anyway.

Tea drinker

JHMEG wrote: »

Funny how no-one has a viable alternative to suggest.

Raising €1.5 billion extra from fuel for private cars would result in the litre of petrol/diesel going up by 50c, giving us a price of about €1.69 per litre (according to the AA). This would make us by far the dearest in Europe, if not the world, for fuel (as well as having a massive impact on the inflation index). Then the bitching would switch from VRT to fuel prices...

I think your post is the best so far, because, you proved there is no viable alternative. There can't be because you can't re-package the overcharging on VRT to a norm, because when you do - you see how bad you were being shafted with the VRT.
So, on top of all the other profits from motorists, tax on fuel, tax on parking, tax on tolls, tax on fines, tax on maintenance, road tax, we have VRT tax for the crack. I wonder overall how much we pay over our European cousins. But sure it's for De envy-ironment.
(Bonus question how much would petrol be on the quays in your scenario above :D:D)

Tea drinker

craichoe wrote: »

The EU can't force a country to do anything. If thats the case we'd have a uniform tax rate across europe. .

Sure they can, Ireland can be taken to court and fined - or they withdraw our subsidies

craichoe wrote: »

On another note, Emissions based taxation has been brought in now in Holland and the cost of a Hummer has risen by 98,000 euro as a result. Its about time, the things look ridiculous anyway.

Agreed, most Artics are far nicer looking, but Has RISEN BY 98,000? are you sure? They'd be better of controlling the other funny smelling "Emissions" they have over there!

Edit Risen By - 'tis horsesh!t
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/46759/story.htm

astraboy

VRT is a complete scam on the Irish motorist, I think we all realise this. It should never have been introduced first day, it has made safer cars more expensive and there is double taxation on safety features or any extras, not to mind the car itself. As motorists we pay far far over the odds already for what is essentially a poor service(granted roads are slowly improving). The fact that the Government is used to getting in the 1.5Billion+ a year from VRT makes it harder to remove. The fact that it is now a fuzzy warm green tax that protects all the foxy woxys and prevents global warming now makes it impossible.:rolleyes: I agree with a certain amount of green taxation, but only when people have viable alternatives to get to work and we are not being totally screwed for driving an evil car.

The simplest option would be to remove road tax altogether(or make it one flat low fee per year) and tax fuel. Then you pay not only for road usage, but also depending on how economical your car is, your driving style, and driving patterns. I know of many people that have to tax cars for a year when the car is only used on weekends. Of course public transport would need to improve greatly and that is years away.

On a final note, having to pay 2K a year road tax on a "high emmision" vehicle is a disgrace, and VRT remains another way the Irish motorist gets screwed. Compare to the UK where the highest rate is 600 pounds a year!

craichoe

Sure they can, Ireland can be taken to court and fined - or they withdraw our subsidies

Fraid not, how long were we waiting for the drivers permits and the legislations for driving licenses to come in ?

Agreed, most Artics are far nicer looking, but Has RISEN BY 98,000? are you sure? They'd be better of controlling the other funny smelling "Emissions" they have over there!

Edit Risen By - 'tis horsesh!t
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/46759/story.htm

Thats a seperate thing altogether.

You have:
1. The tax you pay on the purchase of the vehicle (similar to VAT)
2. The registration tax
3. The road tax (based on weight, type of fuel used (diesel/petrol/gas) and class)
4. Then theres another luxery tax on certain vehicles.

Price has gone up 98,000 euros in the last year with all the increase in taxes, the luxery tax is the latest thing, but does not affect commercial or diplomatic/state vehicles.

It was in a local paper back in november.

cantdecide

JHMEG wrote: »

The alternative is a mandatory 5% rise in income tax

ummm.... 2% by my calculator. I can handle that if it means I can actually afford that new car that I NEED becasue I live in a largely RURAL country with desperate public transport. They make a fortune from road tax, VAT etc anyway.

The actual way is this- everyone gets a 2% income tax reduction that effectively makes NO difference whatsover to the quality of life of ANYBODY. More of a PR headline academic type reduction. 0.025% of the population, ie annual new car buyers are burdoned to make up the difference. Nothing fair about this. It doesn't even make economic sense.

What about raising the income tax rate by 1% and increasing fuel duties to generate the remainer. What about 0.5% increase for income tax and an increase in fuel duties? There's a mllion better options.

Guy:Incognito

cantdecide wrote: »

The actual way is this- everyone gets a 2% income tax reduction that effectively makes NO difference whatsover to the quality of life of ANYBODY. More of a PR headline academic type reduction. 0.025% of the population, ie annual new car buyers are burdoned to make up the difference. Nothing fair about this. It doesn't even make economic sense.
.

Where re you getting .025%? Does it just look better to make the minoriy smaller?

There are roughly 100,000 new cars sold in Dubin each year. Even at 100,000 nationally, with a 4m population thats 2.5%

craichoe

cantdecide wrote: »

ummm.... 2% by my calculator. I can handle that if it means I can actually afford that new car that I NEED becasue I live in a largely RURAL country with desperate public transport. They make a fortune from road tax, VAT etc anyway.

The actual way is this- everyone gets a 2% income tax reduction that effectively makes NO difference whatsover to the quality of life of ANYBODY. More of a PR headline academic type reduction. 0.025% of the population, ie annual new car buyers are burdoned to make up the difference. Nothing fair about this. It doesn't even make economic sense.

What about raising the income tax rate by 1% and increasing fuel duties to generate the remainer. What about 0.5% increase for income tax and an increase in fuel duties? There's a mllion better options.

How about the motorists paying for their motors and the people with cars not paying for them ?

Whatever way it works out, the financial burden is there to have a push away from cars. Its only going to go up.

mick.fr

craichoe wrote: »

I think you will find owning a car in Ireland is ALOT cheaper than owning a car in other european countries.

Hey mate stop your crap seriously. Are you aware about car prices in other EU countries?
Travel a bit in Europe to get a better idea.

On average an Irish car is 26% more expensive than the average EU one.
This is a figure that has been published recently by some guy here, based on a official report.

craichoe

mick.fr wrote: »

Hey mate stop your crap seriously. Are you aware about car prices in other EU countries?
Travel a bit in Europe to get a better idea.

On average an Irish car is 26% more expensive than the average EU one.
This is a figure that has been published recently by some guy here, based on a official report.

A. I don't live in Ireland, so I do believe that makes me well aware of prices.
B. Buying a car from Germany and registering it where i live whacks on about 30 - 35% in registration tax, depending on what you buy.
C. To buy, run and own a car here costs alot more than in Ireland, hence i've kept my Irish car on Irish plates and will keep it that way as long as possible.
D. Road tax and Fuel here is a total assr*pe. 1027 / year road tax on my 1.9TDI here as opposed to around 520 / year in Ireland, petrol is 1.48 and Diesel is 1.22 at the moment.
E. I've Travelled europe quite extensively.

If it was cheaper here i would have sold my car in Ireland and bought one here ages ago.

JHMEG

cantdecide wrote: »

ummm.... 2% by my calculator.

Income tax for 2007 came in at €13.5 billion.

To gain an extra €1.5bn you'd have to increase tax rates by 11%. 11% of top rate is close to 4.5%. 11% of lower rate is 2.2%.

JHMEG

mick.fr wrote: »

Hey mate stop your crap seriously. Are you aware about car prices in other EU countries?

Are you aware of income tax rates in other countries?

Biro

Tea drinker wrote: »

Sure they can, Ireland can be taken to court and fined - or they withdraw our subsidies

Fine - we'll take our fishing industry back then!

Biro

mick.fr wrote: »

Hey mate stop your crap seriously. Are you aware about car prices in other EU countries?
Travel a bit in Europe to get a better idea.

On average an Irish car is 26% more expensive than the average EU one.
This is a figure that has been published recently by some guy here, based on a official report.

You're from France, yes?

JHMEG

micmclo wrote: »

WTF, people who don't drive to pay more tax to subsidise motorists?

VRT is not subsidising motorists? It pays for the health service etc.

mikemac

You may have a point JHMEG. Went on a rant there without reading the post.:o
My points were good but post deleted

parsi

Padraig Mor wrote: »

That's a bit arseways isn't it? At the moment motorists (especially those who buy new cars) are subsidising non-motorists through their extra contribution to general taxation.

At this stage everyone who's working (and plenty who aren't) seem to have a car so broadly speaking motorists are not a special oppressed minority - they in fact are more or less the same group of people who pay income tax, vat, service charges etc.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Why should someone who buys a new car be required to throw thousands into the health black hole for no other reason than they bought a car?

By your reckoning then why should someone who buys a bag of chips have to pay tax...

VRT is a tax like everything else. If it goes something else will have to replace it. As it is it doesn't seem to be stifling demand for new vehicles...

Padraig Mor

parsi wrote: »

At this stage everyone who's working (and plenty who aren't) seem to have a car so broadly speaking motorists are not a special oppressed minority - they in fact are more or less the same group of people who pay income tax, vat, service charges etc.



By your reckoning then why should someone who buys a bag of chips have to pay tax...

VRT is a tax like everything else. If it goes something else will have to replace it. As it is it doesn't seem to be stifling demand for new vehicles...

You miss my point. If I buy a bag of chips I pay 13.5% VAT on it. This goes to general taxation - fine. If i buy a car I pay 21% VAT on it. This also goes to general taxation - also fine with me. But I then pay another 43% (of the car price including VAT, assuming 1.9L+) on top of this! Simply because I bought a car!

I have no problem with paying VAT on a car. I was simply trying to point out that - as Irish motorists are being screwed on VRT - lowering VRT would not be a case of the general taxpayer being caught so that "the rich can drive cheaper cars" but a redressing of the current imbalance where car buyers are subsidising everyone else!

suimhneas

as Irish motorists are being screwed on VRT irish are been screwed in all areas of life and been told its coming from the EU when obviously its not as if it was wouldnt all EU states be treated the same we are been screwed casue we let them screw us we just vote in muppets time after time

craichoe

suimhneas wrote: »

as Irish motorists are being screwed on VRT irish are been screwed in all areas of life and been told its coming from the EU when obviously its not as if it was wouldnt all EU states be treated the same we are been screwed casue we let them screw us we just vote in muppets time after time

Give me a BREAK ....almost the lowest taxation in the EU and still the complaining

Steve

The amount of money the government gets when you buy a car is absolutely sickening.

Consider a new 2.0L car on the forecourt for say €30,000.

Now lets work back:

30% VRT = €9,000. that means VAT inclusive price was €21,000
21% vat then would be €3,645 and we're left with €17,355 as the garages selling price without tax.

So far, thats €12,645 tax.

Assuming the garage owner made a profit, say €3,000 and half of it was overheads he makes €1500 and pays €600 of this in income tax. This means the original cost was €9,645 to the garage.

Before you can drive it out of the garage, you must also pay €600 for a little coloured disc and pay another €500 insurance (including VAT and stamp duty)

In order for you to pay €30,000 for the car, you must earn €50,000 and give the government €20,000 of this.

The result:
By the time the poor consumer got the car, he had to earn €50,000 to pay for something that cost €9,600 and contributed €33845 to Bertie & co.

Thats before you even put petrol into it....

Steve

craichoe wrote: »

Give me a BREAK ....almost the lowest taxation in the EU and still the complaining

craichoe, Just because our evil master whips us slightly less than the evil master next door - we shouldn't complain

craichoe

stevec wrote: »

craichoe, Just because our evil master whips us slightly less than the evil master next door - we shouldn't complain

Nah i'm not saying that at all, but complaining about the price of cars and that they should be cheaper etc. I think people should be complaining more about the lack of infrastructure, bad roads, non existant/unreliable public transport. Making cars cheaper will only put more pressure on the already insufficient infrastructure.

Hence, cars will not get cheaper, their only going to get more expensive to drive/own.

I want to drive to enjoy myself, not sit in traffic for an hour or two going to work in the morning. I get the tram and it takes the same amount of time every morning and its alot less stressful.

In Cork i spent between 45mins and 1hr 30mins in traffic driving through the Kinsale road (magic) roundabout, wilton, bandon road.

Here i can take my car for spins on the weekend, go on drives to germany and great roads.

Mailman

craichoe wrote: »

Give me a BREAK ....almost the lowest taxation in the EU and still the complaining

No, one of the lowest direct taxation countries in the EU.
There are plenty of high indirect taxes and stealth taxes on top of this which make Ireland a very expensive place to live. On top of this the way the taxation system and various laws work restricts the free market pushing prices up. Our low taxation economy is an illusion; don't buy in to it.
Start noting your outgoings in a spreadsheet, you'll soon see how much of your money goes in Taxes.

Steve

craichoe wrote: »

I think people should be complaining more about the lack of infrastructure, bad roads, non existant/unreliable public transport. Making cars cheaper will only put more pressure on the already insufficient infrastructure.

If the motor specific taxes were actually put back into our road infrastructure then I don't think anyone would complain.
It's when motorists are being forced to fund things like Mary Harney's trip to the superbowl in the government jet that lead to complaints.
The current tax take from the motorist could fund the infrastructure spending many times over.

I would love to be able to take public transport to work - fact is there isn't any in this country.

craichoe

Mailman wrote: »

No, one of the lowest direct taxation countries in the EU.
There are plenty of high indirect taxes and stealth taxes on top of this which make Ireland a very expensive place to live. On top of this the way the taxation system and various laws work restricts the free market pushing prices up. Our low taxation economy is an illusion; don't buy in to it.
Start noting your outgoings in a spreadsheet, you'll soon see how much of your money goes in Taxes.

I thought the same until i moved here, direct taxation is ALOT higher, although it is reflected in the Healthcare system and Public infrastructure.