Garrarus / Kilfarrasy Proposed Development

Sully

I heard very briefly plans to construct a major complex out towards Garrarus & Kilfarrasy a few months ago, but thought little of it. I spotted an interesting article in the Waterford News & Star this week (only read the article last night) about the exact location and what is proposed - and planned on reading up about it further. Today, somebody has left a small booklet on every car window during mass bringing further awareness to the proposed development.

The booklet entitled "Save Our Coastline" gives a summary of the plan, and details of how to find out more information and how to object. I have scanned in the booklet for those who did not get a copy. They have a small website setup with more information on the development. Visit the site here; http://www.garrarusgolf.com/.

The council have the full specs and plans (Internet Explorer ONLY (IE Engine Plugin for Firefox works also) as it requires a special tool that seems to only work on IE) on their website; http://eplan.waterfordcoco.ie/InternetEnquiry/rpt_ViewApplicDetails.asp?validFileNum=1&app_num_file=0855

Here is a quick summary of the proposed development on the land;-

• 142 suite hotel
• 51 two-story holiday homes
• 28 three story residential houses
• 18 hole golf course
• associated site works, including roads, car parks, street lighting, telecommunications center and ESB substation

I lived in Tramore all my life, and love the town and its surrounding areas. I created Discover Tramore to promote the town and attract more tourism - the town and surrounding areas are one of a kind, and something that tourists love when they visit it. I personally think the plan being proposed in size and for the area in question is not such a good idea.

This coastal area is enjoyed by locals for walking, driving, relaxing on the beaches, surfing out in the water etc. Tourists love this spot as its unique - its something they love about Ireland, and Tramore / surrounding areas has plenty of it. Developing on such a beautiful and popular tourist and local spot will destroy the landscape, the views and the area itself.

I just think it is not the right way to attract more tourism. Development at such a scale will block the views completely, increase the number of people using the stretch of road (and we all know how bad it is at the moment), destroy the landscape which supports an array of flora and fauna. The affect is wide scale, and not just on that particular plot of land - it will completely wipe out the area, and make it look like a new town center.

I think the idea is good, if it was scaled down and moved somewhere in Tramore or on the outskirts where its not destroying the area but adding to it. In its current location and size, I think is going over the top to attract tourism in the town. We should not be building on such beautiful land and areas - areas tourists love to visit.

I feel that with this development, it will completely urbanise and dominate the area for miles. Its not what the town needs, and will destroy what we cherish as a gorgeous spot.

Again, that's just my opinion and what I feel based on looking at the plans and visualizing such a development in the area in question.

Obviously, people will think its a great idea. I was kinda border line until I was out there today and thought to myself "I cant see how this would work at all!". All I have heard is the "Against" comments and no reasons or rebuttals to this. What are your views on it? Yay or Nay, and why?

Lets keep this topic clean and friendly lads.

sm123_irl

Again I feel the people in Tramore and susrounding area are complaining about something that would be of benifit to the tourism in the area. Everyone in Tramore complains that no one wants to develop Tramore, however when people decide to put some money into developing the area they object. This is not the 1st thing that has being objected to.

Summerhill Centre, Aldi, Dunnes, Hotel on the prom are just a number of developments objected to. People need to stop living in the past and welcome this development or else it will go away and will be back at square one.

Sully

sm123_irl wrote: »

Again I feel the people in Tramore and susrounding area are complaining about something that would be of benifit to the tourism in the area. Everyone in Tramore complains that no one wants to develop Tramore, however when people decide to put some money into developing the area they object. This is not the 1st thing that has being objected to.

Summerhill Centre, Aldi, Dunnes, Hotel on the prom are just a number of developments objected to. People need to stop living in the past and welcome this development or else it will go away and will be back at square one.

I agree such a development will attract tourism, but its the location I have the problem with. The size of such a development, in my opinion, would destroy the fantastic landscapes and views offered in the area. Tramore has to many houses, flats, and holiday homes. The town is being criticised for this, and the promenade area is one of a number of areas a lot of tourists dislike. We have no room with all the houses, and to build on the lovely landscapes offering fantastic views would destroy the area.

Such a new development will bring tourism and facilities that will be of use to them and the town. I agree with that, but I think for the area in question such development should not be permitted. Its probably far to big of a development anyway - less of the houses and holiday homes is what we need. We need to aim at cleaning up what we have in the town, offering more servies to tourists and more choice of where to stay. The B&Bs are great, but the three hotels are nothing special - even for food.

Tramore is being flooded now with supermarkets, and I think we have to much. I think the SummerHill Centre is a good idea, and a nice centeral location to offer more then Super Value. Dunnes down where South is, well I dont think we need a Dunnes. Its best to stick with the one in town. Tramore should not be a small city - its a town, and should offer a small amount of services, not a big shopping complex. Aldi is being put in an awkward spot, and its going to congest the area even more.

The Hotel on the Prom I am all for. I dont think there is as widescale objections to that as there is to this current plan for Garrarus / Kilfarrasy. Its a great location for a hotel. It will liven up the area a bit anyway.

stick-dan

sm123_irl wrote: »

Again I feel the people in Tramore and susrounding area are complaining about something that would be of benifit to the tourism in the area. Everyone in Tramore complains that no one wants to develop Tramore, however when people decide to put some money into developing the area they object. This is not the 1st thing that has being objected to.

Summerhill Centre, Aldi, Dunnes, Hotel on the prom are just a number of developments objected to. People need to stop living in the past and welcome this development or else it will go away and will be back at square one.

I am not a tramore inhabitant nor am i from waterford i merely study here but when i do get a chance i like to surf and some of the best places are out where that proposed development is going. I love the landscape there. So rugged and untouched by technology. It's so hard to find them sort of places nowadays. I hope this gets stopped for the sake of nature.

mike65

This amenity would be an eye sore on the Copper Coast, which is sold on the merits of being, well rustic and a bit wild. Its not an official heritage area but would certainly be suitable for such a designation I think. Such a development undermines that potential claim so maybe thats the best way to halt it as outlined.

The Dept of the Environment handles such decisions

The Heritage Council was established as a statutory body under the Heritage act 1995. Its role is to propose policies and priorities for the identification, protection, preservation and enhancement of the national heritage. National Heritage is defined as including monuments, archaeological objects, heritage objects such as art and industrial works, documents and genealogical records, architectural heritage, flora, fauna, wildlife habitats, landscapes, seascapes, wrecks, geology, heritage gardens, parks and inland waterways. The Council has a particular responsibility to promote interest, education, knowledge and pride in the national heritage

The Heritage Council is a statutorily independent body, established under the Heritage Act, 1995, and funded by the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The Council’s statutory functions include proposing policies and priorities for the identification, protection, preservation and enhancement of the national heritage, and promoting education, knowledge and pride in, and facilitating appreciation and enjoyment of our heritage.

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/

Mike.

Psychedelic

don't really like the sound of the proposal either. golf course and hotel maybe, but 50 holiday homes, no way, we have enough of that ****e.

a hotel on the prom would be great if it was well designed.

re: aldi - i pass the proposed site every day, just checked it this morning and there's only a planning application, not permission granted or anything, so does anyone know what the story is with it?

scout353

Have to disagree here - I think the development would be very good for Tramore. The town has always suffered from a poor image with third rate accommmodation and facilities. A five star luxury development would change all that for the town.

The golf course would be a very natural development and wouldn't interfere with the views etc - Passing the new holes of the Golf Club on the Fenor Road regularly and it looks great.

The scale of the development may be a cause for concern but I would support it based on the information available so far.

By the way, the website listed by Sully above is from those opposed to the development not the developers site

mike65

Its not going to be in Tramore though.

Mike.

scout353

mike65 wrote: »

Its not going to be in Tramore though.

Mike.

But it is as near as!

I want to read the documentation thoroughly before I comment any further but I am drawn to a comparison with Doonbeg - all their development was in keeping with the local environment and I would presume this is the same - the courtyard model means the hotel is not going to be a towering monstrosity and 51 houses is not a huge number!

But I'll examine everything carefully before jumping to any rash conclusions!!

Sully

scout353 wrote: »

Have to disagree here - I think the development would be very good for Tramore. The town has always suffered from a poor image with third rate accommmodation and facilities. A five star luxury development would change all that for the town.

Exactly. Thing is though, there not putting it in Tramore and lots of land opportunities have arisen. This complex will be a bit outside Tramore (I know that tourists prefer to stay within the town rather then a good distance outside) and is taking over a scenic route.

The golf course would be a very natural development and wouldn't interfere with the views etc - Passing the new holes of the Golf Club on the Fenor Road regularly and it looks great.

I thought it was just a golf course at first, and didn't mind to much.

The scale of the development may be a cause for concern but I would support it based on the information available so far.

So you want houses, holiday homes, a big hotel, golf course, ESB Substation, road upgrades, Telecommunications Centre - all on one of the most gorgeous spots in Ireland? That is a pretty large scale development, and would really be negative to the spot.

I don't think I would even want a small development on the spot - it doesn't matter, in my opinion, any size or shape of a hotel is going to destroy the area.

By the way, the website listed by Sully above is from those opposed to the development not the developers site

I think that's pretty obvious I don't think the developers have a website.

Traumadoc

I do not see it as necessarily a bad thing. Sporting facilities? a Gym, ?employment for the kids in the summer.
The value of property around the estate would increase.
Will the developement be something like Faithlegg House? - you should talk to the people there,
I would be more concerned about access to the beach, that would be important to establish/maintain.

cutback

I think the whole point of putting the development out at Garrus is that it ISN'T in the centre of Tramore. This kind of development works because the people who go to stay there can get everything they want without leaving the comfort of the resort, it's location also creates an exclusivity. The benefit for Tramore will be in the jobs it creates locally (jobs serving a market which simply won't ever exist in a hotel in the centre of Tramore purely due to the nature of the development/clientiele) plus in the overflow trade i.e. guests staying for a couple of days of golf/spa who want to get out of the hotel for a while be it a meal in the evening or lunch and a walk during the day.

People complain about the type of people that Tramore attracts in the summer, well this is an ideal opportunity to have the name of Tramore associated with a high quality spa hotel and golf course which will change the associations that people have with Tramore which can only be a good thing.

Sully

I agree with most of what your saying and already agreed but its the location that's the major problem I have. Nobody has really addressed it yet! Its my only issue with the development.

scout353

Sully wrote: »

I agree with most of what your saying and already agreed but its the location that's the major problem I have. Nobody has really addressed it yet! Its my only issue with the development.

Having looked at the plans I think it is still good for the area. I also believe that the proposed pics on the website are a little disingenuous. Accoridng to the plans the golf course will skirt the cliffs so the pictures from the beach wold be a little different and the density is no way near that put in the photo!

I think that is just scaremongering!


If there were some conditions attached to planning such as mature planting and the like, that would provide a very different vista.

tbayday

Photo is disingenuous...it was submitted with the plans by the developers!Planting won't do the trick due to the strength of the prevailing wind.
Outline permission shows 142 suites in the hotel. On closer inspection I discovered thaththis is 50 bedrooms in the main 4 storey hotel and the other 92 suites are 2000sq ft 3 storey 3 and 4 bedroom houses!
The 51 golf "chalets" are over 2500sq ft.
23 of the 28 houses are over 5000sq ft.This is a housing estate of 171 units all very substantial in size. I suggest to anyone who appreciates the area visit the Civic Offices in Tramore and have a proper look at the plans and make an informed decision...Throw in an objection if you think the area is just fine as it is. Who needs to look at another housing estate maring the coastline
The resort and housing is being geared to Americans who will enjoy the views from their golf cart. The developers will make a tidy profit and the local residents will gain nothing.

tpo

Hi everyone, first off well done "Sully" the more publicity about this monstrosity the better. I am a resident between Fenor and Kilfarrasy and want to inform those of you who are not aware about the implication of this development. Just to quote a few people on what they have posted.

Traumadoc, the price of proprety increasing in value.This will happen and great if people want to sell and make a killing but for the majority who are not it is of little value and for our children, they wont be able to afford the price of land if they wish to live here.The beaches, we dodnt know if the owners of the development have the right to privatise the beaches as has happened down on the old head of Kinsale in Cork. So public usage might be no more.


Mike65, you mention not in Tramore. That is so true. This is not Tramore nor part of Tramore parish, if Tramore want it let them have it cause we certainly dont want it out here.

Scot53, You do not live out here and will have to put up with posibley 3 years of construction with an estimated 6300 20 ton lorry loads of earth and sand to be brought in to build the golf course alone. This figure does not include the amount of traffic that will have to be used to actually build the development. I am sure that you are well aware of the size of the roads.The safty for road users which there are alot of walkers with families will be no more.The developers had an independent survey done on traffic and they estimate that 800 cars an hour is what the roads can take before it affects the flow of traffic in all dirrections. They must have plucked that from the sky, that is an offical report sent to the council which they have excepted.

Cutback, you mention "exclusivity". Bolsters are selling this to the public as a 5 star facility at 3 star prices. Sorry the sums dont add up here. What business will opperate at a 2/3 lose. and you are so correct in frasing it as "exclusivity" because the general public will not be able to afford the usage of the facility as Mr. Bolster says.It will open to the public, about 5-10% maybe.

tbayday, well done for quoting the house sizes, people need to know the magnitude of this development it is absolutly huge. The court yard between the hotel and 51 "golf cottages"( av.2500sq.ft.) is bigger that the sq. m. of Croke Park.

Local families in the area have been refused and can not get planning for their kids out here and because Waterford Co. Co. get about €2,000,000 out of it, sure off you go and build what you want. This is a great little country is`nt it?

Mr. Deniss Mc Carthy in the planning publicly said " I dont see a problem with the location" which has SPA ( Special Protected Area) Directive79/409/EEC on it and a pNHA (Natural Heritage Area) which stipulate that no development are to take place in these areas. He also said " I dont see a problem with the scale of the development" ...it is yet again another glorified housing estate plonked in the heart of the countryside of monstrosity proportions, totaly out of carrickter with the surrounding environment and areas.

To sum it up, wrong development in wrong location.
thanks "Sully".;)

Sully

tbayday wrote: »

Photo is disingenuous...it was submitted with the plans by the developers!Planting won't do the trick due to the strength of the prevailing wind.
Outline permission shows 142 suites in the hotel. On closer inspection I discovered thaththis is 50 bedrooms in the main 4 storey hotel and the other 92 suites are 2000sq ft 3 storey 3 and 4 bedroom houses!
The 51 golf "chalets" are over 2500sq ft.
23 of the 28 houses are over 5000sq ft.This is a housing estate of 171 units all very substantial in size. I suggest to anyone who appreciates the area visit the Civic Offices in Tramore and have a proper look at the plans and make an informed decision...Throw in an objection if you think the area is just fine as it is. Who needs to look at another housing estate maring the coastline
The resort and housing is being geared to Americans who will enjoy the views from their golf cart. The developers will make a tidy profit and the local residents will gain nothing.

Welcome to Boards - hope to see you posting on a more regular basis, there is plenty of topics to talk about locally and nationally!

Thanks for your comments and giving more information on the development.

Sully

hey tpo, welcome to Boards. Hope to see you posting regularly here now No need to thank me, the topic would have been created regardless of the pro/negative side. Id have liked to create a topic on the hotel on the prom but info is rather small on it at this point.

Anywhome, would I not be correct on saying that a lot of people in the area the planning is proposed actually sold out their land to Bolster and his team? I thought I recall reading it in the paper ages ago there were offers being made so I assume if the construction is up for planning they bought the land successfully?

My opinion is well know on the development. I really want to see something for Tramore that will affect the town and surrounding areas, but I think the proposed location is shocking. The scale of development, and the scale of it when completed will destroy the location. I was surprised to hear a local person was part of the development when I read the news, I would have expected most local people to be against it.

tbayday

Thanks for the welcome! Believe it or not the developers haven't bought the land! They have the permission of the individual owners to apply for planning permission...again all this info is the planning application....they have an option to buy the land subject to obtaining planning.....the owners may have been given an advance/retainer as is commonplace for property speculators to ensure owners won't enter into negotiations with a third party. Basically they can just walk away. It begs the question about their commitment to the area..guess if they can't get planning here they'll move on with limited losses.
I agree that a hotel is needed in the Tramore area but not there and not on this scale....looks like the hotel and golf course are just an add on to get permission for the housing.I don't believe this will offer anything to the local community..anyone familiar with similar developments in Doonbeg and the Old Head of Kinsale? Membership for golf club 50000 euro not to mention the fact both deveolpments have closed former public rights of way!

Traumadoc

I really cannot see the market for the 5000 sq feet houses or the holiday homes ( there is a glut of these several have been on sale in Castlewoods for over a year).

I have to agree that the scale of this is too big, the hotel courtyard is huge 150mt x150mt, for golf chalets of2500 sq feet!!! I think the hotel with 50 rooms is a sham. This is really a housing estate on an area of natural beauty

Sully

tbayday wrote: »

Thanks for the welcome! Believe it or not the developers haven't bought the land! They have the permission of the individual owners to apply for planning permission...again all this info is the planning application....they have an option to buy the land subject to obtaining planning.....the owners may have been given an advance/retainer as is commonplace for property speculators to ensure owners won't enter into negotiations with a third party. Basically they can just walk away. It begs the question about their commitment to the area..guess if they can't get planning here they'll move on with limited losses.
I agree that a hotel is needed in the Tramore area but not there and not on this scale....looks like the hotel and golf course are just an add on to get permission for the housing.I don't believe this will offer anything to the local community..anyone familiar with similar developments in Doonbeg and the Old Head of Kinsale? Membership for golf club 50000 euro not to mention the fact both deveolpments have closed former public rights of way!

I assume you have been to all the meetings etc. Are there more people concerned, or are people listening to the builders and no longer objecting? Basically, how divided are people regarding this application?

tbayday

I've studied the plans pretty carefully...its a huge planning file so its quite time consuming.....went to the meetings out of interest...I've never objected to anything before.....anyone I've met who has viewed the plans is shocked by the enoromity of the development. According to the developers spin the roof lines have been kept low..the hotel is over 17.5m high 4 storeys! and close enough to the cliff edge ...your average dormer bungalow is about 6.5 m.

Sully I've never heard of so many people objecting to anything in this area before. I'm in the middle of writing an objection. Don't want to say in a year or 10 years time I should have done something to stop it. I'd like to think I could bring my kids or grandkids to the area and enjoy it the way we have been able to. If anyone wants some pointers on the issues to object on you can e mail info@garrarusgolf.com . They will forward you a sample letter. Closing date this Friday so come on everyone if you have any doubts..OBJECT. If this gets the go ahead more and more developments will be allowed all the way up the coast.

It seems the Waterford County Development Plan 2005 was changed in late Dec. A variation to the plan ( IRTC) was passed by the county Council which now supports these kinds of developments. Seems a little fishy that this application could not have even been considered before this change was inserted. Some interesting comments on the proposed development on the upthedeise forum.....

Sully

I tried getting in touch with them, and I dont know if they read it or not - but they certinally never contacted me back. Post up a sample letter for people who are interested.

Btw, its Thursday the deadline is and not Friday - according to the leaflet that went around today.

Minto

Is it not a good thing that somebody wants to build a decent hotel and a new golf course in Tramore? I've heard locals complain for years that the one thing Tramore needs is a decent hotel. Now we (or Garrarus rather) are getting a chance to get one and people are up in arms. I beggers believe people.

Now, before I'm hanged, drawn and quartered, I have looked at the plans (very briefly) and I've kinda dipped in and out of the thread. I gather there is a problem with height of the hotel and bungalows? Is there any houses in the immediate area that will be plunged into darkness by a four storey hotel?

Really, I can't understand these complaints, maybe someone can explain it to me quickly.

Traumadoc

I initilly felt like you, but then I thought about the development, its in an area of natural beauty where they would be unlikely to get planning permission for a regular housing estate.
SO put a hotel in the middle and build the estate under the guise of a tourist attraction. why build golf lodges of 2500 sq feet or larger homes greater than 4000 sq feet unless you wanted these to be attractive as family homes for local people?. This is not a tourist attraction its a housing estate using the guise of a tourist attraction to get around planning.

mike65

Either way the copper coast is not appropriate, stick it on the northern side of Tramore - but hey that means it will be inland so no sea-views so less market value. Thats whats at the root of the wish to locate/desecrate Kilfarrasy.

Mike.

Sully

Minto wrote: »

Is it not a good thing that somebody wants to build a decent hotel and a new golf course in Tramore? I've heard locals complain for years that the one thing Tramore needs is a decent hotel. Now we (or Garrarus rather) are getting a chance to get one and people are up in arms. I beggers believe people.

Exactly Minto, but you seem to be missing the point the majority are making: Not out in Garrus. Beggers believe that you think any scale development out there would actually look great.

Now, before I'm hanged, drawn and quartered, I have looked at the plans (very briefly) and I've kinda dipped in and out of the thread. I gather there is a problem with height of the hotel and bungalows? Is there any houses in the immediate area that will be plunged into darkness by a four storey hotel?

Well no, the main problem is the location. "Location, location, location". Putting a ****e load of houses, a big hotel and a golf course in that area would destroy it. I think you will find a lot of Tramore people are pissed of at the scale of houses and apartments that are appearing in Tramore - do we really want to see it going all the way out to Garraus and to top it of, add a hotel there? Its nothing to do with obstructing houses views or light.

Really, I can't understand these complaints, maybe someone can explain it to me quickly.

Read the topic. I don't mean to be abrupt, but its been discussed fairly detailed and everyone who doesn't agree with it has explained why and those who support it also voiced their reasons. No point in us repeating ourselves

I think the thread on UpTheDeise makes interesting reading, http://upthedeise.com/waterfordmessageboard/viewtopic.php?p=51011

Sully

Traumadoc wrote: »

This is not a tourist attraction its a housing estate using the guise of a tourist attraction to get around planning.

Exactly. And this is exactly what people who support it think. They dont think outside the box, but believe the waffle the developers are spinning. Note: Never trust a developer, they want to make money and if they have an idea there hardly going to say "Ya, your right, it would destroy the area. But, we are going ahead regardless".

scout353

tpo wrote:

Scot53, You do not live out here and will have to put up with posibley 3 years of construction with an estimated 6300 20 ton lorry loads of earth and sand to be brought in to build the golf course alone. This figure does not include the amount of traffic that will have to be used to actually build the development. I am sure that you are well aware of the size of the roads.The safty for road users which there are alot of walkers with families will be no more.The developers had an independent survey done on traffic and they estimate that 800 cars an hour is what the roads can take before it affects the flow of traffic in all dirrections. They must have plucked that from the sky, that is an offical report sent to the council which they have excepted.

I actually do live out that way (but am not one of the landowners in question). I do walk around the Garrarus area but have to be honest and say there are never more than a handful of other walkers out at the same time.

Yes there will be an increase in traffic as a result of the building but I don't think it will be as great as people are making out.

The size of the homes are quite big but no larger than what is out at Faithlegg. And speaking of Faithlegg, was there much disruption there during the development of the hotel, golf course, holiday homes and other houses I wonder?

I still think the economic boost to the area will be huge and that this development can only be good for the area.

The meeting was told that the footprint of the courtyard and hotel will be larger than Croke Park but again I think this is misleading because one's first thought on Croke Park is all about height and not the ground area which is what the footprint is. There would have been no impact if they had said that the footprint was the size of a large GAA field!! In fact a landscaped courtyard area the size of a football field would be environmentally positive would it not??

The one thing that I'm not sure of is that the project is viable? There has been a downturn in the property market, many new developments have not sold out - I hear there are only 3 houses sold in the new Ferrybank housing developments.

The hotel is going to be at the top end of the market so it would be very interesting to see the business plan!!!! Does that come into play during the planning process - it surely should!

The greatest fear in that would be for the development to start and the crash halfway through!

In any event this is a good debate whatever happens!!!

Sully

I think Bolsters are having issues selling their houses at the top of Newtown Hill. Who is to say they wont be able to complete the construction, if for some mad reason they got the go ahead? And I think the roads are to narrow for cars and the figures for how many cars per day were given by the builders.

Traumadoc

The big houses in Faithlegg are all less than 2700sq feet, the courtyard holiday homes in the mews are less than a 1000, There are large tracts of woodland so the visual effect is hidden .

plus its right beside the port and the power station. So not an area of natural beauty.