Fidel steps down

Dudess

snyper wrote: »

Correct.

Communism is a great idea. but id forgets about one thinh.. human nature.
Some ppl will want to work harder than others and need to be rewarded for this.

In order for this perfect system to be maintained, it cannot allow for any stepping outside the box, therefore someone has to be in charge, and instantly, that's the equality bit (i.e. the main bit) out the window.

Rossibaby, I'd suggest you read Animal Farm.

Tar.Aldarion

tallaght01 wrote: »

Known by whom? And in comparison to what countries?

I saw some documentary comparing health care, it said cuba had an excellent one and showed the foreign guy getting treated there(surgery) for free/going around the different places observing it.
Dunno what it was though.

Red Hand

Dudess wrote: »

In order for this perfect system to be maintained, it cannot allow for any stepping outside the box, therefore someone has to be in charge, and instantly, that's the equality bit (i.e. the main bit) out the window.

Rossibaby, I'd suggest you read Animal Farm.

Well, to be fair, someone-an elite, is always in charge no matter what the system.

Equality is out the window with humans fullstop.:)

Tar.Aldarion

Dudess wrote: »

In order for this perfect system to be maintained, it cannot allow for any stepping outside the box, therefore someone has to be in charge, and instantly, that's the equality bit (i.e. the main bit) out the window.

Rossibaby, I'd suggest you read Animal Farm.

I wouldn't think that having a large group of people in a fair form of control somehow(some form of rotation?)... gets rid of the equality by default.


Animal farm is a great book.

Instant Karma

Dudess wrote: »

Rossibaby, I'd suggest you read Animal Farm.

Animal Farm was equally critical of communism & Free market capitalism.

I think cuba has done well for themselves given the circumstances, an independant nation that hasn't whored all its resources to foreign nations and the wealthy, all the while being isolated by the bastion of 'freedom' the good ole USA.

As for the same old story about if it was such a great nation to live why do thousands leave? I would guess they were caught up in the grass is always greener syndrome and the promise of a great life of freedom in florida, no wonder the exiles are so bitter when they reaped what they sowed.

Red-Devil

I am not a communist, im right in the middle, although I agree that the Marxist ideology can work well in certain countries with such high populations and a high percentage of working class. I was talking to a Russian the other day and he said that communism in Russia was good and people had freedom and then Stalin came along and destroyed it all (not that I did not know this but its a decent way of classifying anti-communist hysteria). When anybody hears "communism" these days they probally think of Stalins attrocities and I can sympathise with that, but thinking that way can be biggotted and thats exactly what happened.
Anti-communist hysteria was worsened in the 60's when the Vietnam war broke out. The Vietnamese saw this communist revolution as a national uprising against the French colonists and the vast majority of Vietnamese supported this, but the Americans went in with their heads down.
Moving on... anybody who has been to China will be baffled by China, you would think how is this a communist country? Well its not its too capitalist. They use symbols and uniforms to hide this fact simply because the Chinese are mainly all proud communists. China is impressive. It has a booming economy and puts its resources into good use, this is the kind of "socialism" that Marx dreamed about. But in the counrtyside the people have unintentionally been left helpless and this is the flipside to the coin. When the Chinese economy moves ahead of the American then im pretty sure the Americans wont accept this and fight a war about it (WW3?). This anti-socialist ideology I believe will be the downfall of the world into self-destruction mainly because of fascist theocracies like the U.S and Israel who use religion to fight wars. Thankgod it looks like a democrat will become head of state in the near future (hopefully) and this problem will be prevented.

What I call - "Right-wingism" im afraid is a backwards movement. Dont fall under the trap... learn first!

Summary -

Vietnam War = Anti-Comunist hysteria taken way out of proportion
Communism = Stalin ruined a perfectly functional ideology
Anti-Socialism = Jimmy Carterism
U.S & Israel = At the moment -facist theocracies

Red Hand

Well, a Democrat isn't necessarily the be all and end all of everything either in American Politics. Don't forget that JFK helped spark the Cuban missle crisis by moving missiles into Turkey, which was to the USSR as Cuba was to the US in terms of location. Plus, under him "terrorists" (such a great word!:))entered Cuba in the failed Bay of Pigs operation.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

I'm far from a right-winger, but apart from certain positives about Castro's regime, I'm racking my brains trying to think of a communist society that "works" or "worked".

After some more brain-racking I remembered this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista

At the same time though, this was a government that allowed a certain amount of free-market activity.

Red Hand

Which was one of the reasons the US supported the opposition with arms/advisors...

Dudess

How d'you mean? The Contras were backed by the US not because the Sandinistas were socialist but because they also allowed for a level of capitalism?

hellbent

Whatever the good and bad results of Castro's regime in Cuba, the future for that country looks very bright, if/once the USA decides to back off and cease the sanctions they have imposed.

The country has the makings of a super economy and travel destination once the right sort investment starts to roll in. Let's hope the Mafia (and their Colombian lookalikes) don't get the first foothold there, as they had prior to 1959.

Terry

I know a guy who had one of those Guevarra t-shirts.
I asked him if he knew who the guy on the t-shirt was. He didn't.

I explained what little I know of Guevarra to him.
He did some more research, went on a month long holiday to Cuba and is now married to a Cuban girl.

I don't know if I did him a favour or not.

Hagar

While we are on the subject of democracies etc, does this mean they are going to close down Guantanamo Bay or extend it?

/edit The Irish artist Jim Fitzpatrick designed that iconic T-shirt.

Terry

Hagar wrote: »

While we are on the subject of democracies etc, does this mean they are going to close down Guantanamo Bay or extend it?

/edit The Irish artist Jim Fitzpatrick designed that iconic T-shirt.

Isn't that area under US control or something?
Something similar to the North?

As for the t-shirt, I seem to recall something about him not copyrighting the image.

Hagar

Yep Uncle Sam controls it allright.

dreddie

Viva Fidel!

One of the greatest leaders of the last hundred years. Demonised by many who care not to look at his achievements due to their own blinkered ideology!

Hagar

Fidel steps down, 6th offers to Mod Cuba.

Terry

dreddie wrote: »

Viva Fidel!

One of the greatest leaders of the last hundred years. Demonised by many who care not to look at his achievements due to their own blinkered ideology!

Such as?

Fair enough, he screwed over the yanks when they put him in power, but what has he done lately?

dreddie

A little bit like the question of 'what did the Roman's ever do for us?' in The Life of Brian.

Roads, electricity, sanitation, education, healthcare, sahe to walk the streets at night!

Terry

dreddie wrote: »

A little bit like the question of 'what did the Roman's ever do for us?' in The Life of Brian.

Roads, electricity, sanitation, education, healthcare, sahe to walk the streets at night!

They were already in place.

You'll need to do better.

dreddie

Batista and his mafia/US cronies had these in place for the priviliged few (most of whom left for Miami with their illgotten loot after the revolution).

Fidel and his companeros then proceeded to form a society based on equal access for all to education, health etc. They also built new infrastructure throughout the island which has enhanced the quality of life of all Cubans.

In latter years despite the demise of their main trading partner (i.e. USSR) they have continued to strive for the good of the people resulting in development of business initiatives with many countires including France, Spain, Canada as well as most of South America.

Viva Fidel!

Lirange

Reports from Havana indicate that ailing Fidel's final wish will be to receive one bj from each of his ardent admirers.

Terry

Roads, electricity, sanitation, education and healthcare were only in place for the priveleged few?

dreddie

YES! The general population had little or no access to healthcare or education. Electricity and sanitation etc were luxuries enjoyed only by the elite of society. Road networks did not exist in the shantytowns and rural areas with the exception of where they were required for the purposes of large American companies.

Viva Raul!

Dudess

Lirange wrote: »

Reports from Havana indicate that ailing Fidel's final wish will be to receive one bj from each of his ardent admirers.

I had a politics professor who I'm sure would be only too happy to oblige.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I wouldn't think that having a large group of people in a fair form of control somehow(some form of rotation?)... gets rid of the equality by default.

True. And the Sandinista government in Nicaragua kinda put that into practice. It was referred to as "Sandinistas" - the plural.

Terry

dreddie wrote: »

YES! The general population had little or no access to healthcare or education. Electricity and sanitation etc were luxuries enjoyed only by the elite of society. Road networks did not exist in the shantytowns and rural areas with the exception of where they were required for the purposes of large American companies.

Viva Raul!

Fair enough.
Why can't my friend's wife leave Cuba?

boneless

Hagar wrote: »

While we are on the subject of democracies etc, does this mean they are going to close down Guantanamo Bay or extend it?

/edit The Irish artist Jim Fitzpatrick designed that iconic T-shirt.

And poor old Jim forgot to copyright it... think of how much that image has been used... and abused...:mad:

At least Jim might have put the millions to some use.

Black Swan

Dudess wrote: »

Huh?? I was under the impression that they would have adored him. Can you elaborate further? I'm intrigued.

It was the cigars. His and Clinton's... Run if you are a college intern!

AckwelFoley

dreddie wrote: »

Viva Fidel!

One of the greatest leaders of the last hundred years. Demonised by many who care not to look at his achievements due to their own blinkered ideology!

The rantings of an Irish student.

Wait until the real world hits you.

cjt156

+1
The revolution will be part-funded by Daddy's bank account.

And sorry but "US & Israel = Fascist Theocracies" WOW! How come I never realised that; its all so clear now...

Rob_l

One question i have about the fidel resignation

Why announce it at 3am EST, what the hell are the Cuban government making official press release at three in the morning.

My reckoning Castro is dead Cuba is getting house in order quick before **** hits fan

Reku

Pighead wrote: »

Shite economy and millions of Cubans fleeing to Florida would suggest its not quite the rose garden that Castro would have us believe.

Em... isn't the ****e economy due to the US enforcing an embargo upon them, lets face it, any economy that can't export, and thereby can't afford to import, to it's nearest neighbour (and all the other the US has leaned on ever since to ensure they won't trade with Cuba either) will end up pretty sh*t, regardless of it's core ethos.

Dudess wrote: »

I'm far from a right-winger, but apart from certain positives about Castro's regime, I'm racking my brains trying to think of a communist society that "works" or "worked".

Communism can only "work" through coercion. And that in itself makes it a failure.

Agreed, one of the big flaws with communism is that the expenditure on military in order to ensure the communism is upheld without rioting tends to be far larger than the actual economic benefit achieved through it.

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Equality is out the window with humans fullstop.:)

And there in lies the problem with humanity, the constant ranting on about the mythical concept of equality. People will always try to get ahead of their neighbours since this is the basis of survival of the fittest, as such equality is something that we can strive for but can only exist in an absolute form; when we're all dead.

Rob_l

farohar wrote: »

Em... isn't the ****e economy due to the US enforcing an embargo upon them.

well if they cant take a joke

cjt156

So is it a fair conclusion to say that Cuba is neither the Utopian paradise claimed by Fidel et al, nor the scourge of western democracy and the embodiment of all things evil as maintained by all US administrations since the revolution?
And that communism, while a noble theory, is eventually scuppered by the human urge for individual reward over the concept of sacrifice for the greater good?

Dudess

cjt156 wrote: »

+1
The revolution will be part-funded by Daddy's bank account.

I know a guy who's always ranting and raving about the evils of capitalism and he lives in a shed... in his dad's field.

And sorry but "US & Israel = Fascist Theocracies" WOW! How come I never realised that; its all so clear now...

Yeah, a theocracy to me is Iran under the Ayatollah; Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Rob_l

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, a theocracy to me is Iran under the Ayatollah; Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Yeah they are good examples of theocracies while Israel has a state religion it is not a theocracy.

Red Hand

Dudess wrote: »

I know a guy who's always ranting and raving about the evils of capitalism and he lives in a shed... in his dad's field.

Two Sheds Jackson is still about, is he?:D

Terry

cjt156 wrote: »

So is it a fair conclusion to say that Cuba is neither the Utopian paradise claimed by Fidel et al, nor the scourge of western democracy and the embodiment of all things evil as maintained by all US administrations since the revolution?
And that communism, while a noble theory, is eventually scuppered by the human urge for individual reward over the concept of sacrifice for the greater good?

Nail on the head there.

Black Swan

farohar wrote: »

And there in lies the problem with humanity, the constant ranting on about the mythical concept of equality. People will always try to get ahead of their neighbours since this is the basis of survival of the fittest, as such equality is something that we can strive for but can only exist in an absolute form; when we're all dead.

You must admit that in practice, Spenser's survival of the fittest theory (i.e., Social Darwinism) is a bit flawed in practice? For example, George Bush holds one of the most powerful political positions in the world, and has for over 7 years now. His survival in the political world surely isn't cause he is the fittest? Get real!:rolleyes:

Once the political appendix of Fidel has been removed, the USA will remove it's barriers to trade, and overwhelm it's southern island neighbor with greedy, exploitative commercial enterprise and skyrocketing beach property prices. Servants of a dying political system will become servants of tourists in our Brave New World, where 2% of the population control 80% of the wealth. Survival of the fittest my foot!

Reku

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

You must admit that in practice, Spenser's survival of the fittest theory (i.e., Social Darwinism) is a bit flawed in practice? For example, George Bush holds one of the most powerful political positions in the world, and has for over 7 years now. His survival in the political world surely isn't cause he is the fittest? Get real!:rolleyes:

People felt he was the best of a bad lot the last time around, so of the lot that was available apparently he was the fittest in a political context*. Either that or he was the "fittest" due to being the best at vote fiddling.

*This is why the two party system is stupid in my oppinion, there they are as a supposed consumerist nation yet they stick themselves with only 2 choices of product when it comes to their leader.