Matterazzi

astrofool

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ref had a shocker last night.
Red Card was harsh. One definate yellow. Torres might have gone down a bit easy for the other which is not nice to see at all. The irony of the Utd fans in here slating him for it is hilarious though With the red card being harsh, i think it was absolutely levelled out when Liverpool were denied the most blatant of penalties and numerous mental decisions by the ref.

I'm sorry, but you're the first one to go jumping into arguments with other fans when one of their team's players dive.

Mr Alan

True hence the reason why i say if he dived (which i have to see again, my brother assures me he didnt) its not nice to see at all.

the irony is the fans who usually say nothing when people dive slating him. i am being level, if torres dived thats wrong. but i dont think he did.

Xavi6

gucci wrote: »

People can say torres went down easy for the second one, but in fairness he was as well to as there wasn't alot on as there was cover, and he was getting his team a free in a dangerous position (although with liverpools delivery from set-pieces recently he was as well off he kicked the ball aimlessly over the side line!)

So you're condoning players going down easy? It's ok to exaggerate contact if it means you win a free and get your opponent booked? That to me is cheating.

cournioni

If that was a red card offence. I truely fear for the game of Soccer. I've seen more contact in Netball ffs!

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Mr Alan wrote: »

Of course the area a foul takes place will have a bearing on the refs decision and so it should.

Ridiculous imo.

A foul, is a foul, is a foul.

If a foul is a foul in the centre circle, it's a foul in the box. If the ref is going to give a free kick in the centre circle for something, he should definitely give a penalty.

What are you saying here Alan? Certain offences are acceptable in the box? It's ok to give "soft" free kicks, but not penalties?

This is absurd.

Mr Alan wrote: »

if torres dived thats wrong. but i dont think he did.

Of course you don't.

Mr Alan

DesF wrote: »

Ridiculous imo.

A foul, is a foul, is a foul.

If a foul is a foul in the centre circle, it's a foul in the box. If the ref is going to give a free kick in the centre circle for something, he should definitely give a penalty.

Ah Des, how i look forward to our daily arguments!

My point is, i think a foul when Matterazzi has been beaten by the pace of Torres and is going past him to attack on goal is more worthy of a yellow card than Carragher and another player pulling out of eachother after a set piece just outside the Inter box-surely you agree?!

i think both are fouls and deserving of free kicks, but only one worthy of a booking. This is common place in football.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ah Des, how i look forward to our daily arguments!

Yore face!

Mr Alan wrote: »

My point is, i think a foul when Matterazzi has been beaten by the pace of Torres and is going past him to attack on goal is more worthy of a yellow card than Carragher and another player pulling out of eachother after a set piece just outside the Inter box-surely you agree?!

Er, I do agree with this. I was listening on Five Live last night, and one of the comments about the first yellow was that "he's been yellow carded for his lack of pace". Yes, Torres had gone by, it was cynical to pull him back, especially if Materazzi had no chance of catching up. Definite yellow.

BUT, Alan, Alan, Alan, you have moved the goalposts on this debate, you sly old dog you.

Your original post, the one with which I had a problem was this, allow me to remind you.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Of course the area a foul takes place will have a bearing on the refs decision and so it should.

This is what I was arguing against.

Mr Alan wrote: »

i think both are fouls and deserving of free kicks, but only one worthy of a booking. This is common place in football.

Of course it is, and I have no issue with this.

Different degrees of offence, but use the same standards be it in the box, or the centre circle, imo.

Mr Alan

maybe it was just a misunderstanding Des, i agree that a foul is a foul-be it in the box or the centre circle. when i refered to the "refs decision" i meant as to whether or not its a bookable offence or not.

IE: a foul in the box compared to an identical foul in the centre circle is more deserving of a booking.

gucci

Xavi6 wrote: »

So you're condoning players going down easy? It's ok to exaggerate contact if it means you win a free and get your opponent booked? That to me is cheating.

That to you is cheating, but to me its smart play. I don't feel he exaggerated contact, rolling around clutching his face or something like that is exaggerating contact.
He was fouled, he went down. If he was straight through on goal he probably would have stumbled on to try and finish.
Football is all about being smart if you want to succeed:
A free in a dangerous position is better than losing the ball is smart play.
Working extra hard to stay on your feet when the shot is on is smart play.

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

maybe it was just a misunderstanding Des, i agree that a foul is a foul-be it in the box or the centre circle. when i refered to the "refs decision" i meant as to whether or not its a bookable offence or not.

IE: a foul in the box compared to an identical foul in the centre circle is more deserving of a booking.

What you are talking about is called inconsistancy.

Imagine Team X playing Team Y.

Player Team X pulls a shirt in the centre circle, ref gives a free kick, and a talking to.

Player Team Y pulls a shirt in his own box. Ref gives a penalty, and a yellow card?!

Imagine you support Team Y. Imagine that player was already on a yellow. You'd be up in arms at the second yellow and subsequent red card, slating the ref for not applying the same standard for the same foul. No card in the middle = no card in the box.

Or so it should be.

citytillidie

homerjay2005 wrote: »

didnt see the first one so i cant comment, but torres dived for the second one. he cheated and the ref took it. even benitiz actions were shameful calling for a red.shame and it robbed Inter and now liverpool are odds on to go through.

So all them times Ronaldo cheated and got players book/sent off is not a shame?

astrofool

You're wrong on this count DesF.

Player handballs in the centre circle -> Free
Player handballs to stop the ball going into the net -> Penalty + Red card

Player tugs on a player in the centre circle -> Free
Player tugs on a player who's clean through on an open goal with no other defence nearby -> Free/Penalty + red card

There is problems however
Soft ball to hand in the centre circle -> Free
Soft ball to hand in the box -> usually nothing

In your example above, if the player was in a goal scoring position, then it's a yellow card + peno, possibly red if they were the last man, if they were not, then it's just a penalty.

_blank_

astrofool wrote: »

You're wrong on this count DesF.

Player handballs in the centre circle -> Free
Player handballs to stop the ball going into the net -> Penalty + Red card

Player tugs on a player in the centre circle -> Free
Player tugs on a player who's clean through on an open goal with no other defence nearby -> Free/Penalty + red card

There is problems however
Soft ball to hand in the centre circle -> Free
Soft ball to hand in the box -> usually nothing

In your example above, if the player was in a goal scoring position, then it's a yellow card + peno, possibly red if they were the last man, if they were not, then it's just a penalty.

Wrong? The examples you give are for DIFFERENT offences.

I didn't mention a professional foul, that is a whole different kettle of fish, with clearly defined guidelines.

astrofool

If you tug the shirt of the other player, it's always going to be intentional, which is in the example you give above?

I don't see how it's possible to accidentally grab someone's shirt without intent.

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astrofool wrote: »

If you tug the shirt of the other player, it's always going to be intentional, which is in the example you give above?

I don't see how it's possible to accidentally grab someone's shirt without intent.

BUT IT ISN'T ALWAYS A PROFESSIONAL FOUL, EVEN IF IT IS IN THE BOX.:rolleyes:

Centre circle, player facing away from goal, shirt is pulled, free kick. no card.

Box, player facing away from goal, shirt is pulled, penalty. no card.

The Exact same offence.

Should have the exact same outcome. (remember this, a penalty IS a direct free kick.)

_blank_

astrofool wrote: »

If you tug the shirt of the other player, it's always going to be intentional, which is in the example you give above?

I don't see how it's possible to accidentally grab someone's shirt without intent.

I'm so confused.

Why are you saying "intent". I never mentioned it.

RE*AC*TOR

Ref had a nightmare last night. The big decisions probably evened out (peno vs sending off). But there were so many smaller decisions he got wrong as well (a large proportion against Liverpool).

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RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

(a large proportion against Liverpool).

Say....about 50%?

kaimera

DesF wrote: »

Say....about 50%?

Good to see you're good at maths Des

RE*AC*TOR

DesF wrote: »

Say....about 50%?

I'd say in the 2nd half more than 50% against Liverpool.

_blank_

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

I'd say in the 2nd half more than 50% against Liverpool.

Are you a Liverpool supporter?

This does make a difference, because you'll notice the niggly things that go againt, but not for your own team.

homerjay2005

citytillidie wrote: »

So all them times Ronaldo cheated and got players book/sent off is not a shame?

what has this gotta do with ronaldo? i never mentioned him, honestly man, take that chip off your shoulder and get real. this is about Torres diving, end of story. im not even going to argue with that comment.

LegacyUser

Liverpool - what a team...they can't play proper football yet they will probably win the european cup again if anything like last night is to go by...

Materazzi was unfairly sent off but then again, he is a scumbag...so maybe it is Karma...or just absolutely shocking refereeing?

Sherifu

What is proper football cheesedude? It's a very subjective thing...

IrishMike

cheesedude wrote: »

Liverpool - what a team...they can't play proper football yet they will probably win the european cup again if anything like last night is to go by...

Materazzi was unfairly sent off but then again, he is a scumbag...so maybe it is Karma...or just absolutely shocking refereeing?

In case u didnt noticed Inter are an even more defensive team than Liverpool
Real and Barca are far easier on the eye but neither will win the CL.
Its a case of style over substance, hard to get the balance right.
Only team i can think of at the moment who have the balance right is Man U
and maybe Arsenal (but they are untested against high quality opposition
over 2 legs). Chelsea play boring football, it gets results. Sometimes you
have to win ugly

stooge

It's quite comical hearing some of the obvious liverpool supporters in this thread stating materazzi deserved to be sent off. As much as I dislike the player, it was fairly obvious that he was a victim of his reputation, the noise of the home support and the referee's inexperience, rather than what he actually did. It would have made much more sense to give Materazzi a final warning rather than a second yellow. Thats where common sense should come in to play. Never mind about where the fould took place, it wasn't a professional foul, teh guy had already been booked, its a CL last 16 - give him a warning and don't ruin the game.

I was also disappointed with Torres, firstly for going down so theatrically, secondly for getting up and saying to the ref that it should be a second booking. Lost a bit of respect for Torres after that.

I think everyone agrees the ref had a poor game and was very inconsistent. The numerous handballs against viera that weren't given and the other few small decisions given against liverpool in the 2nd half do not however make up for the obvious mistake in reducing inter to 10 players.

StickyMcGinty

tinofapples wrote: »

Had Jamie or Sammi been the offenders i suspect you might have had a different opinion, come on it was too early for the second yellow (meaning a red). Give the lad a chance. He probably wouldn't have seen the 90 minute mark anyway.

had it been jamie or sami there wouldnt be a thread started moaning about it.

what do you want liverpool to do? take off a player "just to be fair"?

Dont forget, there was a stone wall penalty turned down for the pool in the game too, so the ref wasnt all red

cheesedude wrote: »

Liverpool - what a team...they can't play proper football yet they will probably win the european cup again if anything like last night is to go by...

Materazzi was unfairly sent off but then again, he is a scumbag...so maybe it is Karma...or just absolutely shocking refereeing?

i'd love to know what you consider "proper football"? maybe you should have watched the current premiership champions play *******kos last night for your exhibition of football. garbage comment from a bitter fan.

Mr. Presentable

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Ref had a nightmare last night. The big decisions probably evened out (peno vs sending off). But there were so many smaller decisions he got wrong as well (a large proportion against Liverpool).

What of Sami Hyypia's handball?

Liverpool didn't score until 10 minutes from the end - and it was a deflected shot. That gave them the confidence to go for the second which, it appears, was also deflected. But hey, that's the breaks in football.

In all likelihood Inter will play two up front in the return and should have no bother scoring at least two without reply.

I find it interesting that persons who excuse simulation when "their" teams players do it, are so quick to condemn Torres when they post here.

MrJoeSoap

nipplenuts wrote: »

What of Sami Hyypia's handball?

I'd completely forgotten about that. The way he reacted by hoofing the ball leads me to believe he was sh*tting himself too.

kaimera

What of Sami Hyypia's handball?

What handball?

I missed the first 35 mins so unless it happened then..

should have no bother scoring at least two without reply

Marco is out for the return leg and Cordoba went off with what looked like a serious injury.
2 first choice defenders missing and you think we won't get one goal?

podge018

a lot of people here need a brush up on the rules.

The most anti-Liverpool columnist I know, Philip Cornwall of F365 wrote this at the end of another scathing attack on Liverpool this morning:

"Whatever you think of Benitez, he remains rather better qualified to do his job than Jim Beglin and Clive Tyldesley are to do theirs. Their discussion about Marco Materazzi's red card demonstrated that along with the Italian they should have been dismissed.

Both challenges that led to his bookings were non-violent. But in both cases they were intentional, involving grabs at Fernando Torres's shirt. The first kept the striker in playing distance, leading to the careless clash of legs that brought him down; the second was plainly a long-enough hold to stop the striker getting clear of him in a dangerous area.

The conversation between Beglin and Tyldesley dragged on and on, the subject was returned to in the second half, and it revolved around whether that second tug was what brought the Spaniard down, about how great the contact was. No attention whatsoever was paid to the fact that the contact had got the job done of stopping Torres getting away.

Shirt-pulling can be six of one and half-a-dozen of the other as players jostle and with the first booking, Materazzi's arm may have been going out in anticipation of the Spaniard doing likewise. There was no such excuse second time around.

It was a highly-professional foul in every regard except that it was conducted by a player on a booking in full view of the referee. Someone should have grabbed hold of the shirts of Beglin and Tyldesley and pulled them out of the commentary box. "

Melion

StickyMcGinty wrote: »

i'd love to know what you consider "proper football"? maybe you should have watched the current premiership champions play *******kos last night for your exhibition of football. garbage comment from a bitter fan.

Did i miss something last May????

MrJoeSoap

kaimera wrote: »

I missed the first 35 mins so unless it happened then..

It was in the second half. The ball hit his arm as Reina was coming to collect it, Hyypia panicked and hoofed the ball skyward.

LegacyUser

Chelsea are always terrible to watch though...i prefer style over substance I think I have to say...otherwise where is the entertainment of watching football?

StickyMcGinty

Melion wrote: »

Did i miss something last May????

did i miss something from your post? what are you talking about?

LegacyUser

StickyMcGinty wrote: »

did i miss something from your post? what are you talking about?

Chelsea are not the current premiership champions...

Sherifu

cheesedude wrote: »

Chelsea are always terrible to watch though...i prefer style over substance I think I have to say...otherwise where is the entertainment of watching football?

Yes but what is proper football?

_blank_

maybe you should have watched the current premiership champions play *******kos last night

ManYoo are the champs.

They weren't playing in Greece last night

StickyMcGinty

cheesedude wrote: »

Chelsea are always terrible to watch though...i prefer style over substance I think I have to say...otherwise where is the entertainment of watching football?

shallow way of looking at things tbh. i thought it was stylish the way liverpool broke down a team that defended with 10 players behind the ball.

if last night was a poor game, that was Inters doing. they we're playing negative football for 90 mins.

StickyMcGinty

DesF wrote: »

maybe you should have watched the current premiership champions play *******kos last night

ManYoo are the champs.

They weren't playing in Greece last night

ah sh1te, gettin up a at 3 in the day after a night on the beer seemed to set my memory back by a year. apologies. :P

kaimera

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

It was in the second half. The ball hit his arm as Reina was coming to collect it, Hyypia panicked and hoofed the ball skyward.

The one that hit his chest?

Can't seem to find a vid of it

RE*AC*TOR

nipplenuts wrote: »

What of Sami Hyypia's handball?

Liverpool didn't score until 10 minutes from the end - and it was a deflected shot. That gave them the confidence to go for the second which, it appears, was also deflected. But hey, that's the breaks in football.

In all likelihood Inter will play two up front in the return and should have no bother scoring at least two without reply.

I find it interesting that persons who excuse simulation when "their" teams players do it, are so quick to condemn Torres when they post here.

I don't remember Hyppia handballing at any stage. I don't think either shot was deflected - not that it matters particularly.
Whether Inter will have what it takes to score two without reply at the San Siro remains to be seen. Based on their performance last night I would be surprised. Plus if they end up playing a more adventurous style that should leave more room for the likes of Torres to catch them on the break.

LegacyUser

Sherifu wrote: »

Yes but what is proper football?

For me, it's probably free flowing attacking football...

That's not saying don't defend...you can have amazing attacking matches that still end up 1 - 0 or even 0 - 0. I enjoy the pace of the premiership, and i also equally love la liga where possession is generally what counts...

Let's not beat around the bush, Chelsea in my opinion are the worst team to ever watch...

Sherifu

The proper football comment you made was in relation to Liverpool. Chelsea aren't the most exciting alright.

MrJoeSoap

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

I don't remember Hyppia handballing at any stage. I don't think either shot was deflected - not that it matters particularly.
Whether Inter will have what it takes to score two without reply at the San Siro remains to be seen. Based on their performance last night I would be surprised. Plus if they end up playing a more adventurous style that should leave more room for the likes of Torres to catch them on the break.

Second goal wasn't deflected but if you didn't see the deflection on the first one you mustn't have seen the game...

RE*AC*TOR

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Second goal wasn't deflected but if you didn't see the deflection on the first one you mustn't have seen the game...

Initially I thought it was deflected, then looking at some of the replays it looked like Kuyt just drove it into the ground. It is possible that it spun off the studs, but I wouldn't be certain of it.

LegacyUser

Sherifu wrote: »

The proper football comment you made was in relation to Liverpool. Chelsea aren't the most exciting alright.

Yeah what's your point though? They are still **** to watch in my opinion...and never really try to play attractive.

LegacyUser

StickyMcGinty wrote: »

shallow way of looking at things tbh. i thought it was stylish the way liverpool broke down a team that defended with 10 players behind the ball.

if last night was a poor game, that was Inters doing. they we're playing negative football for 90 mins.

1) Liverpool were at home so should be expected to attack

2) The ref ruined the game

3) You only made progress when their best player on the pitch got an injury and went off (Cordoba)

stooge

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Initially I thought it was deflected, then looking at some of the replays it looked like Kuyt just drove it into the ground. It is possible that it spun off the studs, but I wouldn't be certain of it.

kaimera wrote: »

The one that hit his chest?

Can't seem to find a vid of it

FFS, lol.

Come on guys, stop defending obvious things like hyppia's handball, Kuyts goal being deflected, and Materazzi's sending off being harsh. You got your win and will most likely go through. Fair play. But coming out with the stuff above just makes it look as if you have total blinkers on.

I'm not trying to take the win away from Liverpool, sometimes you get the breaks, sometimes you don't. Last night you got the breaks (sending off, cordoba going off, deflected goal).

Sherifu

cheesedude wrote: »

Yeah what's your point though? They are still **** to watch in my opinion...and never really try to play attractive.

There, you said it. In your opinion they are **** to watch. Just say that instead of that proper football rubbish, everyone has an opinion of what 'proper football' is. There's no point playing attractive and losing. I enjoy watching them play for the drama as much as anything else[The CL final against Milan being the pinnacle of that drama].