Alonso vs Schumacher

thegoth

Hi All,

I have just finished reading James Allens book about Schumacher. Its a good read. At one point during the book Allen says that Schumacher sees himself in Alonso. A driver on his level. Probaly better.

I thought this was a very bold statement by Allen. Earlier in the book he described Schumacher as better than Senna. I really really dont want this thread to turn into a who is better Schumacher or Senna. I am saying this for a reason.

I personally think that Schumacher was better than Senna, but I respect peoples opinions who say that Senna was better and back it up with facts. Maybe Senna was better. No one will ever know for certain. Either way, there wasnt much between them.

What annoyed me was that both Senna and Schumacher have had countless exception drives throughout their careers. Here is a list of Schumachers http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Photo_Features&PO_ID=37231 plus his drive in spain in I think 95 when he drive alot of the race in 5th gear and still finished in the points. Countless others that are not here. I am not as well up on Senna, but Doninton on the rain and several others I have watched on youtube spring to mind.

Now, I was thinking, what memorable drives has Alonso had. I know he has had some great drives, but where are the EXCEPTIONAL ones, like Schumacher pulling out 25 seconds in 19 laps ..... I really cannot think of any in that league.

I'm not saying that Alonso isnt a great driver, but he has so much to prove in my eyes before he is considered an all time great. What has he done except beat a past it Fisi and a rookie. I know it may be harsh, but they are facts.

If any regular poster here wants me to post them the book on loan, PM me. I just have it to a guy at work. So should have it back in a few weeks

Frank Bullitt

I personally don't see any current driver on the grid today that can come close to either Senna or Schumacher, both those drivers did mountains of work that has made F1 what it is today, I know the brits will compare Hamilton with every past champion there was till the cows come home, but there really is no comparison at all.

Senna was shaping up to be F1's Concorde moment, and when he was killed on that day the hands of faith handed those reigns to Schumacher and he made F1 what it is today.

There may well be more successful drivers as in how many titles can be won, but no one can ever achieve what both of those drivers made for F1.

Also I think that if any driver is close to either drivers then i would say Kimi or Rosberg, if the Williams is good this year then Rosberg sets himself up for a great future. When he raced Hamilton in lower formulas he absolutely trolleyed him.

Tragedy

I think kimi comes close on TALENT, it really is a pity we didnt get to compare him and schumacher in the same team.

But talent means nothing really, hamilton and alonso both have the potential but theres nothing there to say they are as good as senna or schumie

Dcully

I agree,Kimi comes close on Talent.
I was so happy to see him win last years title.
For too many years he has been let down by reliability.

Whether he is as good as Senna or Schumacher is another thing,we will never know really.

Tragedy

We might know if he gets a relatively trouble free and decent ride for the next 5-6 seasons.

How likely is that?

Sabre0001

Read that book too - quite interesting! Especially that Schumi highlighted Alonso as the biggest threat, despite him only acting as a tester rather than being on the grid...

Alonso looked sharp at the start - remember him holding off a much more experienced Coultard (think in Brazil but my memory is failing me!)...However, at both teams they have had exceptional cars and reliability so maybe he hasn't been challenged as much. He has had some great overtaking moments and his attitude is very Schumacher / Senna at times - remember him trying to run Hamilton out of space in some races

Don't think Hamilton can be compared yet - yes talented but aided by being with the team for 10 years and groomed for it and got in the car when it has looked better than it has in years - quick and nearly bullet proof reliability. However the attitude isn't there - cracked under pressure, couldn't take niggly battles, etc...

thegoth

I did think tha Kimi may be near Schumachers level, but then I saw Schumacher return to an F1 car for the first time in 14 months in December. Immeditely he was .3 seconds faster than Massa around Barcelona. At the same GP last year I think Kimi was about .2 faster.

Also, consider this was Schumachers first time driving the F2007, with the new control tyres. Look how long it took Kimi to keep up to speed with the F2007 and the control tyres. Amazing.

I will judege both drivers over the next few yeasrs.

thegoth

Emm, I was just looking through youtube and found this. In fairness it is a great piece of driving. I know he had better wet tyres than the Ferraris and other bridgestone runners, but look how easily he gets past his team mate in the exact same equipment at the 3:00 mark. I cannot remember what strategy he was on here. Maybe he was low on fuel or had a problem in qualifying. Great overtaking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZnolTBFIAY

SouperComputer

Personally, I dont think Schumacher compares to Senna for one simple reason. He was an absolute coward when it came to teamates. Schumi ALWAYS picked teamates that he knew would be #2. That strategy worked for a number of reaspon, I dont think one can debate that he is at least amongst the best of generation. But is he outstanding overall, a legend? One of the greats? He never will be for me.

Senna on the otherhand, actively sought out the top driver (Prost), joined the team on as close as equal status as possible and made it his business to try and break him.

Big difference, from my view anyway.

Alonso has great talent, but he's not as psychologically strong as Schumacher. That could change tho, he's still fairly young.

Biro

SouperComputer wrote: »

Personally, I dont think Schumacher compares to Senna for one simple reason. He was an absolute coward when it came to teamates. Schumi ALWAYS picked teamates that he knew would be #2. That strategy worked for a number of reaspon, I dont think one can debate that he is at least amongst the best of generation. But is he outstanding overall, a legend? One of the greats? He never will be for me.

Senna on the otherhand, actively sought out the top driver (Prost), joined the team on as close as equal status as possible and made it his business to try and break him.

Big difference, from my view anyway.

Alonso has great talent, but he's not as psychologically strong as Schumacher. That could change tho, he's still fairly young.

I think he is one of the all time greats. It's hard to compare different drivers from different era's, but Schumacher joined Ferrari when they were in the doldrums, and brought that team up to the fore, and even won championships with them before they actually peaked. In terms of concentration, dedication and consistancy, you can't knock him, and they're all qualities of a great driver. He really does have an edge about him. I don't know if you can say he's better than Senna, that's something that really can't be answered, but if you were a team owner, who would you pick? A firey Brazillian driver who'll win races alright, but is liable to take the team mate out out of spite, or a German driver who'll integrate with the team and work long and hard with the engineers and bring the team to a new level?
I know which is better from a viewers prospective, but you have to look at the bigger picture when comparing.
Also worth noting that when Senna crashed, wasn't it Schumacher on his tail?

hanton12

Biro wrote: »

I think he is one of the all time greats. It's hard to compare different drivers from different era's, but Schumacher joined Ferrari when they were in the doldrums, and brought that team up to the fore, and even won championships with them before they actually peaked. In terms of concentration, dedication and consistancy, you can't knock him, and they're all qualities of a great driver. He really does have an edge about him. I don't know if you can say he's better than Senna, that's something that really can't be answered, but if you were a team owner, who would you pick? A firey Brazillian driver who'll win races alright, but is liable to take the team mate out out of spite, or a German driver who'll integrate with the team and work long and hard with the engineers and bring the team to a new level?
I know which is better from a viewers prospective, but you have to look at the bigger picture when comparing.
Also worth noting that when Senna crashed, wasn't it Schumacher on his tail?

I dont know how you think Senna wasnt able to work with engineers, or at least think that attribute was better in Schumacher than Senna? Senna was great at knowing his car and feeling how it drove, and was able to pinpoint any changes that needed to be made to his mechanics and race engineers. He knw when an engine would go, if he missed a gear change and it over revved, he knew it and was able to relay these on track problems and communications back to his pit crew better than anyone of his era.

But back to the original question, Alonso still has many years left in F1, so its not really fair to be comparing them just yet. But, for all the people who were last year saying Alonso never had a test as good as Hamilton for a title, Alonso beat Schumacher in 2 consecutive seasons, when he was as still good as ever and challenging. He coped with the pressure of one of, if not the, icon of Formula 1.

thegoth

Guys dont turn this into a Senna Suchumanher thing.

Yes Alsono beat Schumacher twice for the title, but in 2005 Ferrari were at very best the third best car. Schumacher did an amazing job with it.

In 2006 again Alonso had a better race package most of the time mainly due to tyres

The fact that Alonso beat Schumacher twice for the title means NOTHING as they were in different cars. Had they both been driving the same care, that would then mean alot

SouperComputer - Instead of saying that Suchumacher picked his teammates, how about naming some drivers who could have been his team mate, and been faster than him ? I can think of none that were faster than Irvine Or Rubens. Maybe Kimi, but he was never in a positoin to join Ferrari before 2007. Ferrari had signed Alonso in 2001 with the intention of racing him in 2002/03 but instead he pulled out at the last minute and joined Reanult. This opened the door for Massa.

vshastak

The above conversation reminded me about my few notes I left on one of the Russian forums in the middle of last season. Basically I'll just translate those into English.

As for me Alonso is too far away from greatest.

He started to feel uncomfortable in June 2007 but just three months before he was absolutely happy. The comfort for Alonso is when the team mate takes P5 or P6 on a start grid but never a pole position, when nobody prevents him from wins, all attention is directed only to him, etc. Obviously these things never happened in McLaren and of course Alonso felt uncomfortable! In general it's not really good when driver says that the car is rubbish, especially when the car is very good. Take for an example Barichello. Basically he is nowhere in Honda but he never rubbished the team. There was one more driver in 2006 who irritated everybody around with his moaning, he is not in F1 now - JV.

My personal view on above is if you are a driver of any F1 team you can cry to your manager/wife/girlfriend/yourself but never bring that outside, in press. It's better to tell about tough times but do not throw mud at your team or your employer.

Formula 1 is a queen of motorsport and is not a Brazilian/Mexican soap movie. Boys from all over the world look at F1 pilots as an example of fully committed drivers to their teams. And they dream to get in this fairy tale, begin with go-cart racing, etc. But what they see in reality is that double world champion feels uncomfortable with strategy, tests and telemetry in a new team and the same pilot constantly gives inconsistent interviews.

I feel sorry for Alonso. He is the only man who can manage to make out "correct" sense of his interviews, and I am admired to his skill to read between lines of the statements, and then to translate those to confused journalists and fans.

PS: apologies for my English

muckwarrior

thegoth wrote: »

The fact that Alonso beat Schumacher twice for the title means NOTHING as they were in different cars.

So by your logic all the titles schumacher won mean NOTHING as he was in a different car to his competitors.

Biro

Well, titles aren't everything! Look at Gilles Villenuve.

thegoth

"So by your logic all the titles schumacher won mean NOTHING as he was in a different car to his competitors."

I am a massive MS fan, but yes. His titles mean nothing to me. Anyone driving a ferrari from 2000-2004 would have won the title. MS titles in 94-95 mean more as he did not have the best car. His drives in a Ferrari in 97-99 were every bit as good as his 5 Ferrari world titles. I judge MS and every driver on this performace relative to team mates.

Is Kimi a better driver now than he was a year ago just because he won the title last year ? No. Damon Hill won the title in a car that was a second a lap faster than everything else. That doesnt mean he was the best drive competing that year.

Tragedy

Actually he is a better driver, he was facing Massa, Alonso and Hamilton in relatively similarly competitive cars. And he won.

thegoth

Are you refering to Kimi? I never said that I thought MS was better than Kimi in my post. Fact is, I do think this. Dont get me wrong, I think Kimi is a great driver, but just not as good as MS

1) Kimi was lucky to win last year. The reason being that Lewis and Alonso took alot of points from each other. Had McLaren backed one driver for the championship, then Kimi would not have stood a chance. His performaces early in the season were not up to scratch. Great second half of the season though

2) Last week, in the same car MS was just .1 sec behind Kimi in testing. Bearing in mind that MS has only driven an F1 car twice since Oct 06, and this was his first time in the 08 car, a car that Kimi has literally driven 1,000's of KM in during the winter was an amazing achievement.

Let me say that I am a Ferrari fan and was delighted they won both championships last year and think they will repeat it agian this year.

cashmni1

Don't under estimate Kimi. He is a great fighter. I couldn't help but think that Alanso (when is the middle of the grid) would give up and settle for that place when a win or podium finish was out of reach. I know that those times were rare, but I couldn't help myself to think that. There is something different about Kimi. He will battle 'till the bitter end. Just Like MS and AS.
Alonso, leaves me with a doubt...... I would prefer kimi on my team.
And all of the current drivers (IMHO) are great when they are out in front with clean air. The real driver with the nerves of steel will snatch victories at the end. He will wait to pounce and take the win.
One way MS was always great at this was saving the car and tyres. He always had a little something in reserve. One of the smothest steering wheel actions through corners in the sport. He was known for this style.
Alanso is known for a different type of style. Kimi for a different one again.
The best driver for me is the driver package. Everything taken into consideration. Team development, car development, driver skill, driver concentration and patience, intimidation on track, intimidation off track, pit crew communication during the race, professionalisim,and general aggressiveness.
I'm sure that there are many more atributes that make a great racing driver but no one comes close (accept AS) to MS (Yet).
There is a lot of driving to do yet before we can say that there is one better, today.

thegoth

"One way MS was always great at this was saving the car and tyres. He always had a little something in reserve." I fully agree.

I like Kimi better than Alonso. God, if I was a team manager, I would hate to have a whinger like Alonso in my team. His default mode is to complain to the media about the team when his back is against the wall. I do think that he may be slighly faster than Kimi, but I'm not certain.

I think both are good racers. Look at Alonso here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZnolTBFIAY . I think Kimi is a slightly better overtaker in the dry and Alonso in the wet.

If I had to pick one, I would pick Kimi. The deal breaker for he is that he would fit into a team better than Alonso. Already Alonso has fallen out with Ferrari, Reanult, and McLaren over contracts.

Ferrari - Broke a verbal test driving contract
Renault - Didnt even talk to the team
McLaren - Wanted the team to give him better treatment than his teammate

He seems to have mended bridges with Reanult and Ferrari ( Not Todt. Todt has never forgiven him)

muckwarrior

thegoth wrote: »

1) Kimi was lucky to win last year. The reason being that Lewis and Alonso took alot of points from each other. Had McLaren backed one driver for the championship, then Kimi would not have stood a chance. His performaces early in the season were not up to scratch. Great second half of the season though

I fail to see the logic in what you're saying. Last year there were 4 drivers that had a chance to win the title on a level playing field, and Kimi won. How is that lucky? Yes, Hamilton and Alonso took points off each other just as they took points from kimi as did Massa.

IMO it was one of the most legitimate titles to be won in years as he won it in a car that was no better than its main rival and he also won it without the need for a team mate to prop him up.

As for Alonso, I used to like him but I've lost all respect for him as he's proven time and again to be a whiney little bitch!

Tragedy

thegoth wrote: »

Are you refering to Kimi? I never said that I thought MS was better than Kimi in my post. Fact is, I do think this. Dont get me wrong, I think Kimi is a great driver, but just not as good as MS

1) Kimi was lucky to win last year. The reason being that Lewis and Alonso took alot of points from each other. Had McLaren backed one driver for the championship, then Kimi would not have stood a chance. His performaces early in the season were not up to scratch. Great second half of the season though

2) Last week, in the same car MS was just .1 sec behind Kimi in testing. Bearing in mind that MS has only driven an F1 car twice since Oct 06, and this was his first time in the 08 car, a car that Kimi has literally driven 1,000's of KM in during the winter was an amazing achievement.

Let me say that I am a Ferrari fan and was delighted they won both championships last year and think they will repeat it agian this year.

I meant he was a better driver for last year. He fought off three potential world champions, suffered a car that went from great to absolutely abysmal and back to great again, and did it with his usual *ahem*aplomb.

As for #1, bull****

Biro

I also think that what makes Kimi even better is the fact that he seemed to only bother his ass to drive for half a season!

Andrewf20

Biro wrote: »

Also worth noting that when Senna crashed, wasn't it Schumacher on his tail?

I reckon the less powerful Ford V8 Benetton was less suited to the fast San Marino track, hence Senna in the lead then. Having said that, Senna gets my vote for getting pole x3 in 1994 over Schmacher particularly in Aida, a track that suited the Benneton better.