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(Rational) Discussion on Kosovo
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Wes,
the article you have presented is based on the lack of knowledge of local history; big time. Calling Milosevic a nationalist is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. He was a sick bolsevik who betrayed his own nation by proclaiming Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, practically leaving Bosnian and Croatian Serbs at their own mercy in terms of human potential in a military sense. Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia were outnumbered by 3 to 1 in those two republics put together, and Serbian Army itself never engaged directly in the war.
Kosovo had autonomy within Serbia from 1974 onwards and that was enshrined in Yugoslav Constitution; I do not see what sort of international recognition was Mr Hitchens referring to. It is a common misunderstanding here that republics in former Yugoslavia had a right to self determination; no, that right belonged to nations and Serbs were spread over 3 republics.
Kosovo independence would be justified if ethnic Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia were allowed the same in the 1991. But they were not.
Article you presented is someone's opinion and nothing more than that. Many of these articles are based on common propaganda and bias. Instead, I invite you to read this document made by Federal Research Division of US Congress dated December 1990, at the time Yugoslavia was still respectable and when the whole world had good relations with that country. This document is an official study, dated before all anti Serbian propaganda took place. Have a read, its a bit long and not written by Serbs, Croats, Muslims etc...
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-14752.html0 -
Milosevic was a nationalist. Why else would he try and create a greater Serbia?
As for Anti-Serb propoganda. I think the bad reputation Serbia has is due to the genocide at Serbrenic, which is very much there own fault. The campaign for a greater Serbia back fired and now we have the current situation. If anyone is to blame for Serbia's loss of Kosovo, Serbia need look no farther than there own leadership.0 -
Ok you are all getting way way to caught up in history, and especially mick72 is completely ignoring the present day situation - which is not important. Mick72 would have Kosovo a part of Serbia purely for historical reasons, I understand from his posts. Well that method of doing things, and excuse my French, is absolutely bollox. One must look at the situation AS IT IS NOW, not AS IT WAS THEN. There is no point saying well "hmm the Vikings from Norway controlled Ireland 1000 years ago, so naturally they deserve it....all those in favor of dissolving the Dail???????"
As mick72 correctly pointed out, Kosovo was made an autonomous province in 1974. The situation from there has been that of this distinctly separate region gaining more and more independence from Serbia.
Now in all probability mick72 will ramble about how Kosovo is not "distinctly separate" and not worthy of independence. Explain it receiving self-government then.
In summation: a self governing region has 90 percent population wanting complete independence. Why obey the other 10 percent? Because of some battle in 1394, Byzantium, the Bulgarian empire or something like that?0 -
This whole shenanigans would of been avoided if the borders were drawn correctly over 100yrs ago.
Watching the video that Mick72 presented, it's clear that in relation to Serb/Croat/Bosnian borders, it was drawn as if a clown drew it!
Leaving large ethinc minority populations in another nation was wrong, it's obvious tension would arise, it's like that worldwide, Africa is one example.
Regarding Kosovo, what do you do if you have a large immigrant population built up over 200yrs on your territiory that don't like your nation? (NI come to mind!)0 -
Milosevic was a nationalist. Why else would he try and create a greater Serbia?
As for Anti-Serb propoganda. I think the bad reputation Serbia has is due to the genocide at Serbrenic, which is very much there own fault. The campaign for a greater Serbia back fired and now we have the current situation. If anyone is to blame for Serbia's loss of Kosovo, Serbia need look no farther than there own leadership.
You obviously do not follow what's going on in the Balkans. Last year, there was a court case at the International Court of Justice: Bosnia-Herzegovina v.Serbia and Montenegro. Serbia was charged with agression, comitting genocide etc etc in order to to create greater Serbia. The Court ruled that Serbia was not guilty of any of these, out of 14 judges, 13 decided so. I think all this nonsense of Greater Serbia is pure propaganda; other than volunteers, no Serbian Army unit ever crossed the border. You obviously did not see the documentary...Ok you are all getting way way to caught up in history, and especially mick72 is completely ignoring the present day situation - which is not important. Mick72 would have Kosovo a part of Serbia purely for historical reasons, I understand from his posts. Well that method of doing things, and excuse my French, is absolutely bollox. One must look at the situation AS IT IS NOW, not AS IT WAS THEN. There is no point saying well "hmm the Vikings from Norway controlled Ireland 1000 years ago, so naturally they deserve it....all those in favor of dissolving the Dail???????"
As mick72 correctly pointed out, Kosovo was made an autonomous province in 1974. The situation from there has been that of this distinctly separate region gaining more and more independence from Serbia.
Now in all probability mick72 will ramble about how Kosovo is not "distinctly separate" and not worthy of independence. Explain it receiving self-government then.
In summation: a self governing region has 90 percent population wanting complete independence. Why obey the other 10 percent? Because of some battle in 1394, Byzantium, the Bulgarian empire or something like that?
There are places in Ireland where immigrants make up over 60 percent of population. If they declared independence from Ireland, what would the Irish governement do? Let them away because Dublin City Centre was only historically Irish, and at present day more then 50 percent are immigrants living there. Kosovo was autonomous region since 1974,but that does not mean that it had sovereignty, nor a constitution. Only Serbia and Yugoslavia had constitution that was applicable to this province. Kosovo declared independence first time back in early 90s, but no one apart from Albania recognised such a state. If you look at population figures, you will see that Serbs were majority in Kosovo up to 1960s, so it's not 1000 years ago.0 -
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You obviously do not follow what's going on in the Balkans. Last year, there was a court case at the International Court of Justice: Bosnia-Herzegovina v.Serbia and Montenegro. Serbia was charged with agression, comitting genocide etc etc in order to to create greater Serbia. The Court ruled that Serbia was not guilty of any of these, out of 14 judges, 13 decided so. I think all this nonsense of Greater Serbia is pure propaganda; other than volunteers, no Serbian Army unit ever crossed the border. You obviously did not see the documentary...
No they just sat up and watched as there fellow Serbs militia's murdered and raped the people of Serbrenica. Genocide occurred according to the ICJ. It should also be noted that the man directly responsible is being protected by the current Serbian state. Amazing that you ignore this. Why should anyone find a country hiding a man directly responsible for genocide is beyond me.There are places in Ireland where immigrants make up over 60 percent of population. If they declared independence from Ireland, what would the Irish governement do? Let them away because Dublin City Centre was only historically Irish, and at present day more then 50 percent are immigrants living there. Kosovo was autonomous region since 1974,but that does not mean that it had sovereignty, nor a constitution. Only Serbia and Yugoslavia had constitution that was applicable to this province. Kosovo declared independence first time back in early 90s, but no one apart from Albania recognised such a state. If you look at population figures, you will see that Serbs were majority in Kosovo up to 1960s, so it's not 1000 years ago.
You know very little about Irish history it seems. Look at the situation up North and get back to us.
Anyway the current majority there is Albanian and has been that way for a long time. I find Kosovans far more believable than a nation still hiding men directly responsible for genocide, which Serbia sat by and allowed to happen, so that Milosvic dream of a greater Serbia could be a reality. As far as I am concerned, the state of Serbia has 0 credibility.
I personally can't blame the Kosovans for wanting independence from a state who wanted rid of them less than 10 years ago. Why, would they want to be part of Serbia? What incentive do they have? Why would they willingly become second class citizens?0 -
Kosovans? They are Albanians, not Kosovans. Kosovan nation does not exist.
According to ICJ genocide occured and was carried out by bosnian serbs in a local civil war. ICJ ruled that Serbia had no links to that crime. It is pointless to argue over something that Court already made its decision.
As far as I am concerned you have no credibility for saying things like that. According to your logic, every Tom, Dick and Harry could declare independence tomorrow. Stupid!
Small wonder only 16 countries recognised Kosovo?!0 -
Kosovans? They are Albanians, not Kosovans. Kosovan nation does not exist.
There is a country called Kosovo. They declared independence the other day. We are discussing the creation of the state throught out this thread.
If you choose to ignore reality of Kosovo, thats your business. I will continue to use the term Kosovan to describe people from Kosovo.According to ICJ genocide occured and was carried out by bosnian serbs in a local civil war. ICJ ruled that Serbia had no links to that crime. It is pointless to argue over something that Court already made its decision.
As I pointed out, why does Serbia hide people who committed war crimes? I have mentioned this several times and this is the reason I distrust the Serbian government, its because there hiding war criminals. I accept the ICJ decision, but I think the hiding of war criminals, makes the Serbian government worthy of distrust.
Why do you continue to ignore that fact. Also, I think it worth discussing why Serbia is still hiding Ratko Mladić and Radovan Karadžić. I have to wonder why Serbia hasn't given these men up yet. Perhaps the government isn't quite over its past.As far as I am concerned you have no credibility for saying things like that. According to your logic, every Tom, Dick and Harry could declare independence tomorrow. Stupid!
Small wonder only 16 countries recognised Kosovo?!
Why shouldn't oppressed people declare independence? There are plenty of people who got pretty badly screwed due to oppression by an uncaring occupiers.
Such a situation happened recently in East Timor, where Indonesians treated them abhorrently, and now we have it with Kosovo.
Hopefully, they can finally get on there lives.0 -
Wes, as I understand it Mladic was rumoured to be in Republika Srbska or Montenegro. It's also been rumoured that he is in Serbia. But as there is no actual evidence of that we cannot condemn Serbia if he is not there.No they just sat up and watched as there fellow Serbs militia's murdered and raped the people of Serbrenica. Genocide occurred according to the ICJ. It should also be noted that the man directly responsible is being protected by the current Serbian state. Amazing that you ignore this. Why should anyone find a country hiding a man directly responsible for genocide is beyond me.
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Anyway the current majority there is Albanian and has been that way for a long time. I find Kosovans far more believable than a nation still hiding men directly responsible for genocide, which Serbia sat by and allowed to happen, so that Milosvic dream of a greater Serbia could be a reality. As far as I am concerned, the state of Serbia has 0 credibility.
I personally can't blame the Kosovans for wanting independence from a state who wanted rid of them less than 10 years ago. Why, would they want to be part of Serbia? What incentive do they have? Why would they willingly become second class citizens?
Your comments re second class are applicable to Serbs in Croatia post seccession. The Serbs were variously sacked from Government jobs, thereby manifestly second class.
Before any hostilities broke out Milosevic seemed prepared to accept Croatian secession as long as the rights of the Serbs in Croatia were protected, and they would be allowed determine their future. Were they on either count? And how is that Serbia's fault?
Serbs have been attacked in Kosovo since Nato took over. Various killings have gone unpunished. I have even heard of KLA being arrested by UK troops fleeing a massacre only to be released. This from people who served there.
So it's arguable that NATO and ourselves have also stood by while attrocities took place. But, and here's the good thing - it's OK.
There are rumours of Serb mass graves in Kosovo. This was going on before NATO took over, it's claimed that the Serb security crackdown was because these attacks against Serbs reached unignorable heights.
Undoubtedly the serbs committed attrocities, which you find unforgivable, but the KLA and Alabanian majority population committed attrocities too.
This seems forgivable to you, I may be wrong?
Even to go back to the Irish conflict vs Kosovo one, most Irish found it unnaceptable when the IRA killed civilians, but we seem gladdened when KLA do it? REALLY strange.
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/take_two/2007/04/oliver_kamm_v_conor_foley.html0 -
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Tea drinker wrote: »Even to go back to the Irish conflict vs Kosovo one, most Irish found it unnaceptable when the IRA killed civilians, but we seem gladdened when KLA do it? REALLY strange.
Thats pure hyperbole. No one here has suggested that in anyway shape or form. Serbia is still blaming everyone for there problems, Croatia have handed over there criminals, as have the Bosnians. They seem to be making a greater effort in that department than Serbia.
As I mentioned earlier, the EU has made the reasonable request that Serbia hands over its war criminals. Its one of the main blockers to there joining the EU. So if the EU think Serbia is hiding them its good enough for me.
If the Serbs have evidence of crimes committed against Serbians in Kosovo, they should take it to the ICJ and Kosovo should hand over who ever is responsible.0 -
I've seen a very ethnic cleansy attitude to Serbs on another Irish boards. (not from you Wes) I think some of these people don't know the meaning of irony.Thats pure hyperbole. No one here has suggested that in anyway shape or form. Serbia is still blaming everyone for there problems, Croatia have handed over there criminals, as have the Bosnians. They seem to be making a greater effort in that department than Serbia.
As I mentioned earlier, the EU has made the reasonable request that Serbia hands over its war criminals. Its one of the main blockers to there joining the EU. So if the EU think Serbia is hiding them its good enough for me.
If the Serbs have evidence of crimes committed against Serbians in Kosovo, they should take it to the ICJ and Kosovo should hand over who ever is responsible.
Anyway, criminals in Kosovo, how are these guys going to get to ICJ, the ruling force is not detaining them (allegedly). This would inspire confidence in an international court?
My opinion regarding the Serb war criminals is of course they should be brought to the ICJ, or at least any legal court. Better transparency if ICJ though. There have been many operations to catch these guys outside Serbia that have failed. The pressure on Serbia seems to be nothing more than floundering - in the absence of success blame and punish Serbia.
I honestly don't believe the Serb gov knows anything about these guys whereabouts. Of course I could be wrong and they may be seen as a bargaining chip to be used at the right time, but I would say it's more likely to be the criminal underworld that's helping them - along with sympathisers. Time will tell, they will be caught. It would be best for Serbia if they handed themselves in.0 -
Tea drinker wrote: »I've seen a very ethnic cleansy attitude to Serbs on another Irish boards. (not from you Wes) I think some of these people don't know the meaning of irony.
Well, I haven't seen it myself, but it wouldn't surprise me.Tea drinker wrote: »Anyway, criminals in Kosovo, how are these guys going to get to ICJ, the ruling force is not detaining them (allegedly). This would inspire confidence in an international court?
Well, the Serbian government should still report them, so that if they ever leave there country they can be arrested. You are right that the ICJ can't do anything unless someone hands them over, but reporting it would at least put forward there case in a stronger manner.Tea drinker wrote: »It would be best for Serbia if they handed themselves in.
While I personally think the Serbian government is hiding them, but either way the sooner these men are caught the better for Serbia and everyone else involved.0 -
To briefly return to Mick72's debate, about Kosovo not deserving independence. Wes perfectly summerised it as so, and anyone holding their position should answer these questions:
Why, would they want to be part of Serbia? What incentive do they have? Why would they willingly become second class citizens?0 -
What incentive do Bosnian Serbs have to stay in Bosnia?
What incentive do Basques have to stay in Spain?
What incentive do Abkhazia and New Ossetia have to stay in Georgia?
What incentive do Catalonia have to stay in Spain?
Taiwan in China?
Phillipini Islands?
Quebec in Canada?
Perhaps Scotland in the United Kingdom?
What did US Army do when New Mexico tried to break away?
What about ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia, Romania?
What if Catholics in the North declared independence from Britain?
Should Turkish Republic Cyprus be recognized as well?
Albanians were never second class citizens in Serbia, that was the whole point of autonomy they had. Always had schools through Albanian, media...Prior to Serbian crackdown, the KLA (at the time even the US considered it to be a terrorist organisation) had killed many people especially police. Why did Serbia not crack down or engage in ethnic cleansing in Northern province of Vojvodina, which had same status as Kosovo and Metohija?
Serbian govt said they're not hiding war criminals, the EU hasn't showed a single evidence that Karadzic and Mladic are in Serbia?
Why did EU or the US not recognise Chechnya? They wanted to break away and Russians killed many more than Serbs did? Why did they not bomb Russia into submission and to protect human rights of people of Chechnya?0 -
What incentive do Bosnian Serbs have to stay in Bosnia?
They don't have any, but after Serbrenica, I doubt anyone could in good conscious support them. I doubt anyone in there right mind would reward genocide.What incentive do Basques have to stay in Spain?
What incentive do Abkhazia and New Ossetia have to stay in Georgia?
What incentive do Catalonia have to stay in Spain?
Phillipini Islands?
Quebec in Canada?
What did US Army do when New Mexico tried to break away?
What about ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia, Romania?
Should Turkish Republic Cyprus be recognized as well?
I don't know enough on them to have an informed opinion.Taiwan in China?
Taiwan should be independent and join the UN and everyone should support them in this endevour.Perhaps Scotland in the United Kingdom?
If the Scottish people want to. Then why not. The current Scottish government are nationalists.What if Catholics in the North declared independence from Britain?
The majority in the North want to remain part of the UK. Maybe this will change someday, but they have every right to self determination.Albanians were never second class citizens in Serbia, that was the whole point of autonomy they had. Always had schools through Albanian, media...Prior to Serbian crackdown, the KLA (at the time even the US considered it to be a terrorist organisation) had killed many people especially police. Why did Serbia not crack down or engage in ethnic cleansing in Northern province of Vojvodina, which had same status as Kosovo and Metohija?
The actions of the KLA is hardly a justification for what was done to the Kosvan Albanians. If anyone engaged in terrorism or war crimes against Serbs they should be jail or sent to the Hague.
Also, if Serbia didn't act in the same manner elsewhere, doesn't have a bearing at what happened in Kosovo.Serbian govt said they're not hiding war criminals, the EU hasn't showed a single evidence that Karadzic and Mladic are in Serbia?
I trust the EU more than the Serbian government personally. For me, its a case of who do you trust?Why did EU or the US not recognise Chechnya? They wanted to break away and Russians killed many more than Serbs did? Why did they not bomb Russia into submission and to protect human rights of people of Chechnya?
Russia has nuclear weapons. I do agree you have a point they should have recognized Chechnya, it was conquered by the TSar a couple hundred years ago and was a sultanate and if the majority want to be free, then they should be. Of course any terrorism used to achieve this is completely abhorrent and disgusting.
Of course as you rightly pointed out the Russian army were far more vicious than then Serbian army in Kosovo ever was. The sad fact is that no one was in a position to do anything about it.0 -
Albanians were never second class citizens in Serbia,
I suppose when Milosovic tried to KILL THEM ALL, it was just a case or not being able to communicate his love?????I dont know why im even debating with you.....you have some good points but then you just have these blanket policies that your not willing to bend to a situation or anything.0 -
How many contries have recognized Kosovo?
How will Kosovo ever become a member of the UN, Council of Europe, EU and many many other organisations?
For instance, in order to become an EU member every Member State has to ratify that. Some EU states said they would never even recognize Kosovo, not because they love Serbia, but because they have similar situation at home.
Serbia said it would never recognise Kosovo and the Serbs policemen in Kosovo have already left Kosovo police and formed their own police in northern parts of Kosovo where Serbs still live. Kosovo will be 'independent' as long as there's Nato there to protect them; that is very clear.
If Serbs are not to be awarded due to their war crimes, how do you justify Croatia being awarded after expelling about half a million Serbs?0 -
There wasn't a campaign against the Albanians in Serbia (proper, I suppose we call it now), at least not to my knowledge. If you have evidence of this please present it.I suppose when Milosovic tried to KILL THEM ALL, it was just a case or not being able to communicate his love?????I dont know why im even debating with you.....you have some good points but then you just have these blanket policies that your not willing to bend to a situation or anything.
TBH I thought it showed remarkable restraint when Serbs civilians were being targetted by NATO on behalf of Albanians that they didn't attempt to eject the Albanian population.
Don't get me wrong I'm sure there instances where Albanians were targetted, but maybe not as much as in Ireland.0 -
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Tea drinker wrote: »There wasn't a campaign against the Albanians in Serbia (proper, I suppose we call it now), at least not to my knowledge. If you have evidence of this please present it.
Tea drinker, you are a joke. WHY DO YOU THINK NATO ARE THERE YOU DOPE??????????? Out of boredom???????????
That is the single most stupid comment Ive ever heard on this board. In fact there should be awards for stupid comments, and that should win.0 -
I did not quite get his point either; however as for NATO's purpose in Kosovo do you really think they went there to protect Albanian population?0
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Not purely, but that was the pretense
Like Vietnam and the Tonkin Gulf. The US wanted an excuse0 -
I agree0
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Albanians were never second class citizens in Serbia, that was the whole point of autonomy they had. Always had schools through Albanian, media...Prior to Serbian crackdown, the KLA (at the time even the US considered it to be a terrorist organisation) had killed many people especially police. Why did Serbia not crack down or engage in ethnic cleansing in Northern province of Vojvodina, which had same status as Kosovo and Metohija?
Insinuating that Kosovar Albanians were never second class citizens is madness.
I have data obtained by historians from the Archive of the Federal Secretariat for Foreign Affairs in Belgrade, in the Political unit (Politicko Odelenje) where the General consul was provided with details on the expulsion of Kosovars to Turkey via the port of Thessaloniki in Greece. Based on document 1246 of 12 April 1914, [I am emphasizing the year 1914, when Milosevic was not alive!] the following numbers were provided:
November 1912, 8866 Albanians were expelled,
December 1912 11.493 Albanians were expelled
During January 1913 12.087 Albanians were expelled
During February 1913, 1.288 Albanians were expelled,
March, 7.553 Albanians were expelled,
During April 1.913, 6725 Albanians were expelled,
During May, 12.813 Albanians were expelled
June 1913, 9386 Albanians were expelled,
July 1913, 21.045 Albanians were expelled,
August 1913, 29.312 Albanians were expelled,
September 1913,13,380 Albanians were expelled,
October, 14.764 Albanians were expelled,
November 1913 17.313 Albanians were expelled,
December 15.502 Albanians were expelled,
During January of 1914, 10.182 Albanians were expelled to Turkey,
February 1914, 25.060 Albanians were expelled,
March 1914,12.346 Albanians were expelled
The list goes on and on.
Interestingly, this data was published by the Serb Academy for Science, the section for Scientific History ("Dokumenta o spolnjoj politici Kraljevine serbije”, K.VII Sv.1 Beograd 1980.f.617-618).
According to the Ministry of the Interior of the Serb Kingdom (1912-1915) the plan was to colonise 20.000 Serbs in the zone occupied by the Serbs and an additional 5000 Montenegrins in the regions occupied by the Montenegrins!
I went back that far just to illustrate why Kosova could no longer be part of Serbia and to show when the Serb imperialism in 20 century started.
In addition, concerning the lies, please read this
Quote from "Deobe"(Divisions)1961.Volume I,page 135: "A lie,trait of our patriotism" “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else’s misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively."
This is a quotation by Dobrica Cosic, former
president of Serbia and chairman of the Serb Academy of Science
If anyone wishes, I could continue the list of people expelled in that period and later on during the Socialist regime!0 -
I didn't ask you to throw a tantrum dumbass, I asked you to show me the data you have, where MILOSEVIC TRIED TO KILL THEM ALL. (Your words) Obviously if Milosevic tried to KILL THEM ALL by definition he would have done this campaign throughout Serbia. Otherwise, this would mean you would be wrong.Tea drinker, you are a joke. WHY DO YOU THINK NATO ARE THERE YOU DOPE??????????? Out of boredom???????????
That is the single most stupid comment Ive ever heard on this board. In fact there should be awards for stupid comments, and that should win.
It's not my fault you get nervous when asked direct questions, lashing out with your tiny fists.
In any event you misread my post, if you read it at all. NATO are not in Serbia (proper) they are in your statelet Kosova. Have you evidence of mistreatment of Albanians in Serbia (proper) is what I asked you. If you don't your claim is false and you should retract it.
GOT THAT?
Regedit, your historical data is interesting, but very dated. Were they expelled for entering the country illegally, or were they expelled because they were ethnic Albanians ?
Your out of context quote from Cosic is meaningless to me.0 -
Regedit,
what you have said about Albanian expulsion from Kosovo is a feature of almost every European country in 20 century, or at least of every central and eastern european country.
Turkey and Greece expelled whole ethnic populations prior to that as well.
The Albanians that were expelled from Kosovo during that time was due to fact that they defended Ottoman Empire and had always been loyal part of it, the same goes for Muslims in Bosnia. Serbs from Croatia were only expelled 13 years ago even though they were under UN protection.0 -
Regedit,
what you have said about Albanian expulsion from Kosovo is a feature of almost every European country in 20 century, or at least of every central and eastern european country.
Turkey and Greece expelled whole ethnic populations prior to that as well.
The Albanians that were expelled from Kosovo during that time was due to fact that they defended Ottoman Empire and had always been loyal part of it, the same goes for Muslims in Bosnia. Serbs from Croatia were only expelled 13 years ago even though they were under UN protection.
Your argument does not hold water.
While I may agree that expulsions have happened in recent European and worldwide history, once these acts are endorsed by the state, this amounts to genocide by all conventions. The facts are there. Serbs did this to Albanians during the Kingdom of SHS (SCS) and later on during the socialist regime. In the 1950’s and 60’s during the reign of the interior minister Aleksander Rankovic, more than 450.000 Albanians were deported to Turkey, and tens of thousands were tortured. This led to the purification of cities like Skopje.
It is interesting that g[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1]enerations of Serbian politicians and intellectuals have created plans for the final solution to "the Albanian problem", not hiding their hegemonism and aggressive chauvinism based on religious, cultural and even racist prejudices. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1]Experts who deal with the history of Kosovo have no doubts that the genocidal policies toward Kosovo Albanians have been obvious since 1878, when Serbia and Montenegro were internationally formally recognised, in spite of their defeat from the Turks and thanks to Russian diplomacy and the Berlin Conference. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1]‘[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1]Seeing as the Albanians used to live in present day southern Serbia, the direct consequence of that fact was their brutal expulsion from the wider vicinities of Nis, Pirot, Palanka, Leskovac and Vranje. Serbian historians attempted to portray that exodus as voluntary moving, to spite some other later writers who wrote of the authorities after 1878 secretly torching villages and Albanian quarters in cities. It is difficult to talk about any precise numbers, primarily due to the fact the Serbian authorities back failed to conduct a census, but it is presumed that no less than 30,000 Albanians were expelled from Serbia. Some of them moved to Kosovo, which was not under Serbian rule at the time, while others settled in Asia Minor and other areas of the Ottoman Empire. What was actually happening at that time can be seen through a text by Vasa Cubrilovic - a participant in the assassination of the Austro-Hungarian heir to the throne, Franjo Ferdinand, in Sarajevo - who later became an ideologist of genocide against the Albanians. Here is a quote from Cubrilovic from Ljubica Stefan’s book ‘Serbs and Albanians’ (three volumes), which had to be published in Ljubljana without an author’s name, due to the political psychosis in 1989. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1]"The moment the first Serbian units began their penetration toward Kursumlija, Prokuplje and Leskovac, they came across densely grouped Albanian villages that refused to surrender. They will be the central point of Serbian battles. Village by village had to be taken. The Albanians retreated toward the south, hiding in refugee camps and continued to fight. When the Serbian Army would approach refugee camps, they would retreat toward the South Morava Valleys, Veternica, Medvedje, Pusta Reka and Laba, then further on to Kosovo… After 1878, Serbia had to colonise the regions abandoned by the Albanians and Turks. The border with Kosovo had to be settled with nationally loyal residents in order for the border with the Albanians to be secure." [/SIZE][/FONT]0 -
Read this link, I won't ramble.
I hope you have seen Albanian Broklyn Connection where they says they will even attack Nato
http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/srbi-balkan/mradovanovic-kosovo.html0 -
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Read this link, I won't ramble.
I hope you have seen Albanian Broklyn Connection where they says they will even attack Nato
http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/srbi-balkan/mradovanovic-kosovo.html
I wish you had selected a different nick like ratko or slob rather than mick.
The article you refer to is written by a serb and it represents another attempt to indoctrinate the emdia. people have "bought" your stories and it is hard to fool someone repeatedly!0
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