(Rational) Discussion on Kosovo

mick72

The article I have presented is written by a Serb and therefore not worth a read! The paragraph you have presented is also written by Serb; yet it did not stop you from posting it.

I have no need to fool anyone; Karadzic and Mladic should be tried in Hague for war crimes, I do not know where the hell you got this idea that I am in support of alleged war criminals.

All I am saying that independence of Kosovo is a breach of international law, one way or the other

shqipshume

regedit wrote: »

I wish you had selected a different nick like ratko or slob rather than mick.
The article you refer to is written by a serb and it represents another attempt to indoctrinate the emdia. people have "bought" your stories and it is hard to fool someone repeatedly!

LOL could not have said it better,:D

Thirdfox

wes wrote: »

Taiwan should be independent and join the UN and everyone should support them in this endevour.

Why?

wes

Thirdfox wrote: »

Why?

The people living there want it. Thats more than enough reason for me.

Thirdfox

They also claim control over mainland China (including Tibet) - is that fine with you too?

Oh and I want to declare independence from Ireland, no skin off your nose right?

wes

Thirdfox wrote: »

They also claim control over mainland China (including Tibet) - is that fine with you too?

Oh and I want to declare independence from Ireland, no skin off your nose right?

Last I checked the communist Chinese regime, is not a democracy. So there claim depends on them having the bigger army. Lets not forget what the Chinese regime does to its minorities, there is quite a bit of footage on the News right now.

Perhaps, the communists should hold a fair, free and open election? Lets see if they do have popular support? Perhaps, there afraid there people may kick them out of government.

In anyways, I only echoed support for Taiwan to be independent and don't support any of there other claims.

Thirdfox

See the thread in AH on Tibet (I have posted extensively on Taiwan in a link there too - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055245162&highlight=taiwan ). Do you know the history of either Taiwan or Tibet?

So, myself being a democratic body over my house - can I declare independence from Ireland? I'll even have a referendum and apply to the UN .

There have been grassroot democracy systems in place for a while now (the BBC did a programme on it some time ago). Perhaps you would like to educate yourself on the issue?

You do know that Tibet, Hong Kong, Macau, Inner Mongolia and Xin Jiang are SAR (semi-autonomus regions) right?

wes

I know there Semi-autonomous. So what? If they want to be independent. I see no reason why they should not be.

Oh and if you want to declare your house independent. Please do so. Lets be honest, the comparison your trying to make is ridiculous. However, please belittle the the ethnic minorities that the Chinese regime are brutalizing, torturing and murdering as we speak, for having the temerity to stand up for there rights to national self determination.

The Chinese government, are among the vilest regimes on the planet. Care to try and explain away, why they decide to remove the organs of Falun Gong practitioners? The Chinese regime are not thrust worthy and care only for keeping themselves in power and rich.

Oh and grass root democracy initiatives? Don't make me laugh, the PRC hasn't changed at all. We are seeing it right with there treatment of Tibetans. There turning away reporters to hide what there doing.

Thirdfox

Unfortunately - I doubt the Irish government is willing to allow me to declare my land independent (just like the Spanish, Serbian, Canadian, American governments with their respective lands). I do not believe it is a ridiculous comparison - where do you draw the line? And just because YOU have drawn the line at a particular point why should anyone be subjected to your arbitrary view on things?

Bringing in the Falun Gong? Not smart - they are a cult whose leader believes in alien abductions and the power of self belief curing cancer, not quite Lord Xenu stuff but close to it I suspect. You'd be giving a better example of conflicts between the Chinese Catholic church and the one in Rome.

The Dalai Lama himself doesn't want independence... so who are the people you're referring to that want independence? Some other "government in exile" perhaps? Western organisations?

I'm trying to open your mind, not make you laugh as I believe this is a serious topic to be discussed. You have not backed up your assertions with any impartial evidence or sources. Have you seen the BBC programme about democracy in China? And who are you to say that "Western" democracy is the best form of governance? If they have a different definition of what they believe is "democracy" who are you to tell them that they are wrong? How are you going to back up your assertions? Through force (like the US did in implementing "democracy" in Iraq/Iran/Taliban in Afghanistan etc. etc.)?

I am Irish and proud to be so, however I would not have qualms about emigrating to China and living under one of the "vilest regimes on the planet". The government there have achieved amazing things for the Chinese people considering the hundred years of Western abuse and exploitation (and internal abuse by the Emperors). 100 million people lifted out of the poverty line in a decade, is that not a triumph for human rights? What is the use of freedom of speech when you do not have food to eat first of all? I believe that political change in China is bound to follow the economic change (China hasn't been economically Communist for the last 30 years or so now). It has made remarkable progress in 50 years and will continue to do so.

While nitpicking on spelling is frowned upon may I call to your attention that the word you're looking for is "they're" not "there".

edit:
As an addendum to the above, my recent experience with these online discussions is that they are of little use - neither side is willing to be open and people end up wasting their time writing their points out. A proper face to face discussion would be much more preferable where people are civil and observe the correct protocols of debate and discussion. So I won't waste anymore of my time talking politics online - frankly I'm tired of correcting Irish and Chinese people (online) on their mis-informed views in regards to the other side. I hope you can do some further research yourself before coming out with these half-truths and mis-information.

Regards,
Daniel

wes

Thirdfox wrote: »

Unfortunately - I doubt the Irish government is willing to allow me to declare my land independent (just like the Spanish, Serbian, Canadian, American governments with their respective lands). I do not believe it is a ridiculous comparison - where do you draw the line? And just because YOU have drawn the line at a particular point why should anyone be subjected to your arbitrary view on things?

A Chinese army showed up in Tibet and annexed it. Oddly the Tibetans (like most people) have a problem with this. The fact remains, they don't want the Chinese there. They don't want the communist regime to destroy there culture. They don't like the fact that colonists from China now out number them, making them a minority in there own country.

Its very simple imho.

Thirdfox wrote: »

Bringing in the Falun Gong? Not smart - they are a cult whose leader believes in alien abductions and the power of self belief curing cancer, not quite Lord Xenu stuff but close to it I suspect. You'd be giving a better example of conflicts between the Chinese Catholic church and the one in Rome.

So what if there a "cult"? Most religions would have been considered "cults" at one time or another.

Way I look at it the "cult" are far better than the bloody PRC who remove there organs. Something you conveniently forget. No matter how wacky there "cult" is, removing the organs makes the PRC far worse imho.

Thirdfox wrote: »

The Dalai Lama himself doesn't want independence... so who are the people you're referring to that want independence? Some other "government in exile" perhaps? Western organisations?

The Dalai Lama doesn't represent all Tibetan exiles. Some still want independence. As for what Western governments want, I could care less personally.

Thirdfox wrote: »

I'm trying to open your mind, not make you laugh as I believe this is a serious topic to be discussed. You have not backed up your assertions with any impartial evidence or sources. Have you seen the BBC programme about democracy in China? And who are you to say that "Western" democracy is the best form of governance? If they have a different definition of what they believe is "democracy" who are you to tell them that they are wrong? How are you going to back up your assertions? Through force (like the US did in implementing "democracy" in Iraq/Iran/Taliban in Afghanistan etc. etc.)?

The fact remains, China is not a democracy. The grass root efforts mean less than nothing at present. What your saying mean nothing at present. Its doesn't really show any real change. At best its a nice dog and pony show that various dictators put on from time to time.

You must be under the mistaken impression I find the US anymore trust worthy, or that I support the absurd Neo-con agenda. Of course the PRC is using violence as I type, murdering and torturing people. Just turn on the news. Of course we don't have much information since the PRC are blocking media access. Regardless of the actions of the US, it doesn't excuse the PRC.

Thirdfox wrote: »

I am Irish and proud to be so, however I would not have qualms about emigrating to China and living under one of the "vilest regimes on the planet". The government there have achieved amazing things for the Chinese people considering the hundred years of Western abuse and exploitation (and internal abuse by the Emperors). 100 million people lifted out of the poverty line in a decade, is that not a triumph for human rights? What is the use of freedom of speech when you do not have food to eat first of all? I believe that political change in China is bound to follow the economic change (China hasn't been economically Communist for the last 30 years or so now). It has made remarkable progress in 50 years and will continue to do so.

If you want to live there good for you. The Tibetans don't have the same option as you. There is a rather large PRC army enforcing there rule on them.

Plenty of people haven't benefited from the economic boom. The rich get richer as per usual. The rural area's are still full of poor and quite a few people have been passed over by the economic boom. The 100 million is a drop in the ocean considering China's population.

Also, why shouldn't the Chinese people have both free speech and a prosperity? They could have both.

Again, Western oppression doesn't excuse the PRC oppression which is happening right now. Remember Mao killed some where in the region of 70 million people, see Mao: The Unknown Story by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday . The progress you speak of is built over there dead bodies. Of course, we should pretend this never happened right? We should pretend whats happening in Tibet right now isn't happening as well.

Thirdfox wrote: »

So I won't waste anymore of my time talking politics online - frankly I'm tired of correcting Irish and Chinese people (online) on their mis-informed views in regards to the other side. I hope you can do some further research yourself before coming out with these half-truths and mis-information.

I would disagree and consider my views well informed. You are entitled to your views either way.