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Homeless / Begging community in Sligo
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anyone familiar with the guys cleaning windshields in traffic at the top of john st??
whats their story!!!
John Street, Hughes Bridge and Cartron!
:mad:
I wouldn't let them near my car! Really pi$$es me off!
One of them came up to the car one day and I signalled "no" when he went to wash the windsheild. He Smiled at me and moved on.
Big mouth of Gold teeth and plenty of rings, chains and bracelets etc.
Oh the irony!
Is this practice illegal though?
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Its a bit of a chicken and egg. That arguement presupposes that the person again is at fault. I think the life expectancy and morbidity that follow people who are poverty stricken, and marginalised in many ways might dispute that. Higher instances of cardio vasculr disease, certain types of cancers, higher rates pulmonary disorders. Some of it down to the fundamental of not having an opportunity for a healthy diet some of it because people may be due to not having an insulated house, higher smoking, poor education. etc.tulipandthistle wrote: »I really don't feel charitable to people who use disabilities (her outside BOI) and babies (O' Connell Street) to beg. I've had loads of experience with beggars all around Europe and it does leave a bad taste in the mouth.
Using the our own travelling population as a case in point, the average life expectancy is 59 years of age following a recent report......
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/life-expectancy-of-irish-travellers-still-at-1940s-levels-despite-economic-boom-454993.html
The same would be through about infant mortality which is very high compared to Irish people in general. Now alot of other childcare issues could be sorted our through education and some of it may just be down to lack of support networks, some cultural practices who is to know.
I know it is a long stretch to compare ethnic minorites like this but I just wanted to illustrate that there is more than personal choice involved. Are these people disabled first and use it, or does the life that they are forced to live lower their chances of a healthy life causing premature death?
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I was going to bladder on about who deems what as being acceptable to live on? For example the government implies a wider definition than income alone.
People are living in poverty if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living which is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and other resources people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities which are considered the norm for other people in society."
Poverty is more than having a crust to live on, its more than whether a relative runs a car it more than the tax payer subsidises yor bed and board. I was going to bladder on about whats acceptable must different fo all of us. Anyhow I reckon I am suffering from charitable fatigue, cos im climbing down from me soapbox. (for the night anyway lads.
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Btw sorry takola i meant to get back to you that episode in the house didnt sound very nice at all. Thankfully nothing was taken otherwise you would had have had to get the guards. Nobody likes having to lock your room especially when you never had to before.:(0 -
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People who are begging may not become rich doing it, but the contention is that it's unnecessary for survival if people are willing to avail of the services available.
"We all can fall in to our own traps of negative stereotyping and its all persuasive, because it can reinforced by so many". I think you'll find it's just as easy to become an apologist for people who choose to live such lifestyles, putting themselves on the margins of society. As badly run as our country is, we all pay taxes towards provisions for people who need them. Irish people who found themselves on the streets of London in years gone by did not have the array of services one could expect in any modern European country, and often would have gladly taken a ticket home if it had been provided. A large percentage of those who did become homeless admit that often it was more or less self inflicted due to alcoholism.
The vast majority of people, having enough to survive on, would not beg. Alot of these people have bypassed the taboo of beggary by disengaging with Irish society. The mercenary attitude they have towards it is sickening. I think most people have the intuition to know when something stinks, and nobody likes being a soft touch.
I can sleep at night knowing I didn't give anything to a begger, because I know the services are there if they want to avail of them.
You must be sleeping in a different country than I am then, cos theres no statutory right to community care where I am! Theres no proper co-ordinated state community services except the voluntary sector trying to do want the state should be doing oft times in an ad hoc way, taking over where the church left off. There they are scraping and fundraising and getting a hard time of it too cos the public are exhausted giving.
No i am not an apoligist for every time of behaviour just as I dont believe in what I see as a Thatcherite policy that the person is the centre of all ill.
People oft times bypass the taboo of begging cause they have addiction problems or they havent a choice either. I do believe that essentially people shoud be given a chance, and alot of times if you invest you get back. Even maybe "your one outside the BoI"
The irish I was talking about in England were the ones that were forced over in the 40's and the 50's. No they wouldnt have come back here with the price of the boat cos there was nothing for them here. The services in england including the equality legislation under the Blair governement made extremely important strives to build confidence in the Irish community as too did the Irish governement who supported innovative Irish outreach services to the more isolated, (and god forbid "vulnerable"). There is a huge issue of alcoholism in the Irish community in England as there is too with the Irish community here. Whether we accept is as a problem or want to bury or heads that its just a lifestyle thing that people are being greedy negates the fact that its a serious issue for many people who cant control it. Its having an impact in the workplace and productivity in sick days.
Sometimes it destroys peoples lifes putting there tenure, family and health. Thats not greed its an illness surely.
We pay taxes all right but I thought you of all people woudl criticze the wisdom of where these are going. I for one dont thing that any kind of community and rehabilliative and outreach services are prioritised to the extent they should. And thats the kind of thing that I get night tremors about. 0 -
I was going to bladder on about who deems what as being acceptable to live on? For example the government implies a wider definition than income alone.
People are living in poverty if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living which is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and other resources people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities which are considered the norm for other people in society."
Poverty is more than having a crust to live on, its more than whether a relative runs a car it more than the tax payer subsidises yor bed and board. I was going to bladder on about whats acceptable must different fo all of us. Anyhow I reckon I am suffering from charitable fatigue, cos im climbing down from me soapbox. (for the night anyway lads.)
I don't get your argument here at all Tuppence!
These people have a house. They have a car. They have enough food. They're getting enough money to live on.
Are you saying they should be getting more because they may be used to living better? Because what I read from your argument was they're poverty stricken because they can't go out doing the things they're used to doing.
In my opinion poverty stricken is when you don't have enough money to make your rent even though you've scraped the bottom of the barrel and stretched every single thing. So you have to go without dinner on wednesday and thursday to have enough money to pay your rent. It's not being deprived of a good drinking session or those fab new clothes in Aware.
I've read every one of your arguments and I've been quite interested in this thread. But regardless of every one of your arguments I still do not consider those people sitting on the streets begging acceptable. They have enough money to live on. I would understand the need if they had absolutely no income but they do! They're being supported by the state and because of this womans disabilities they're being supported better than most!
The husband sits at home all day long doing absolutely nothing when if they're that desperate for money he could get a job. The daughter could get a job. I just don't see how anyone could deem them begging on the streets acceptable!Btw sorry takola i meant to get back to you that episode in the house didnt sound very nice at all. Thankfully nothing was taken otherwise you would had have had to get the guards. Nobody likes having to lock your room especially when you never had to before.:(
I'm glad too that nothing was taken because then I would have lost my temper and that's rarely pleasant!
I'm not whinging about having to lock my doors. You lock the doors when you're leaving the house regardless. That wouldn't be an issue.
But I should not have to keep all the doors in my house locked when I'm there! I lived in a prison for a couple of weeks because it wasn't safe to leave the door open when I walked out of the kitchen and into the sitting room. That is not pleasant! :mad:0 -
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No I am saying they may be defined as suffering from poverty using the definition above not if they can do the things that they are used to doing, its can they do the things we are used to doing! It’s using a relative scale of measuring poverty. In a modern advanced country how much is enough? We can afford to lift people out of scrapping a dehumanised existence. Is there a willingness there, I don’t think so. Of course we can’t afford to reinforce dependency. Look theres a whole debate in what some people cynically call the "poverty industry" about this!
That’s why imo complementary service provision is essential. There are barriers that inhibit people from being economic productive in the workplace (as this sometime is the value put on people too much I think). Some of these barriers the equality authority are tackling using legislation because there is an awareness that for example people have been penalised from getting work due to age, ethnicity and disability. Then of course there are the addiction problems, being deskilled from long-term unemployment and the rest.
What the people in this situation are receiving from the state is abit uncertain is it not, what they could receive is extremely different depending on their status i.e. whether their asylum application was agreed. If they were still asylum seeking, husband would not be allowed to work anyway. They would be eligible to same services as the indigenous population if they had refugee status I think. I kind of think that maybe they have that cos the privately renting thing. I think you are entitled to some help for a car, maybe its adaptations I don’t know?!
Anyway then were back at the beginning, people can beg for multiple reasons. If for example you know someone who has a real addiction its an expensive problem to maintain and forces many out on the street. However, if you rehab someone and get them back out you actually reinvest peoples potential. Being a pragmatist not an apologist this time!
I'm glad too that nothing was taken because then I would have lost my temper and that's rarely pleasant!
Go Girl!;):D0 -
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I know the system is festering with ineptitude, corruption and misuse of tax money. That's a problem the government needs (and won't bother) to address. But regardless of where assistance comes from, it's there in one form or another. The days of anyone starving to death are gone in Ireland. Is it right to beg for anything other than enough to sustain life? I don't think so. Begging as a means to live a life more akin to the general population is professional begging, and in my view, not acceptable.
Its not right that anyone should feel forced to go onto the streets through an inadequate income, or to supplement a habit, because they lost their job and tenancy through illness, though domestic violence, through mental health. Its not right, in fact its pitiful. There is assiatnce out there of the most basic form. There is a lack of innovative service provision thats attempts to treat the person as a whole. Where are the one stop shops for information? When was the last time you tried to negotiate the quagmire that is the welfare system in Ireland?
Moving from the local social welfare office to the community welfare officer and back to get assistance and rent allowance. And then theres the medical card ...The bureaucratic form filling that is involved in getting on the housing waiting list is laughable, like having to get a police stamp or member of judiciary as proof! (how welcoming is that ffs). Barriers upon barriers.
Try negotating these if your first language isnt english, try that if you have literacy issues and arent able to read and write properly, try that when the voices are talking to you and you dont know whether you are coming or going, try that when you dont know whether the father of your child will catch up with you the beat the living daylights out of you..... Are we really living in the real world here.......Basically I dont think that it is that hard to find yourself caught in a poverty trap, too far from the street maybe even because of lack information about entitlement and negotiating the welfare system. Anyone that is'nt visibly dying of malnutrition is then a "professional beggar".
Have we come so far and lost so much?
In the case of "your one outside BOI", if her family are not willing to look after her in a way that we see as appropriate, she should be taken into care. It doesn't give her the right to splay herself on the public footpath looking for money from passers by. If the average person is unwilling or unable to help a relative in similar circumstances, they offload them on the state. They do not send them out to beg on the streets.
Jeepers the nanny state has arrived. How are we going to police this?
Best lock up your relatives in case they get mistaken for professional beggars or taken into care ?! What do you reckon sectioning her for leg splaying. :eek: Wheres the woman in all of this? 0 -
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Maybe because of that.. The law making it illegal has been struck down (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0315/breaking47.htm)
Perhaps we can find more quotes of Il gatto to play ping pong with!
Michael McDowell is gone now, he used to be the one that was great at writing unnecessary legislation. Anyway i think the guards have more to be doing then shifting people around because we find them a nuisance on the pavement! We will be shifting smokers from outside premises next...We best not ring 999 on this one.
Ps Groan not the PC reference! I was wondering how long it would take to come.
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As long as it would be possible, I wouldn't see a relative begging. Thereafter I would leave them to the care of the state. Moreover, I wouldn't deposite myself in a country where I had no intention or ability to integrate, and then live on the gratuities of others.
Professional begging indicates that you beg as a livelyhood rather than pure necessity. Pure necessity is not an issue in modern Ireland.
The scenario you've put forward of wife beating is not relevent to the issue being discussed here. It plays to people's sensitivities, but is pure supposition.
The nanny state implies the government controlling people's freedoms, such as enforcing smoking bans, over regulation of licencing laws and the like. The fact that someone should be taken into care before being reduced to begging can only be seen as a positive aspect of a state.
I'm not some heartless ogre who's dismissing someone more unfortunate than myself. That doesn't mean I agree with anyone either begging for profit or spurning what provisions there are.
As far as leg splaying goes, anyone deemed to be causing an obstruction of a public highway can legitimately be moved on by Gardai.
I am just trying to promote a pause before jumping to conclusions about professional begging because to me it’s a dangerous concept and if used inappropriately it could be a way to victimise. Ah hey they are all getting enough, sure as much as me. The Irish social welfare is great. Therefore they are abusing the system...
What’s happened to our tolerance? If theres someone going slower ahead of us why does that irritate so much? If theres someone with one leg( for the love of everything sacred) on a pavement taking up too much space, live and let live. Is the pace of life really that sressful? What’s happened to our tolerance of diversity?
If these people are indeed Roma gypsies. They have been historically persecuted in concentration camps, and by many cultures, as well as Romania recently because of their nomadic lifestyle. Who says they are not trying to integrate in as much as they can. Is there language facilities for them, proper work placements etc. The family and family appears important to them too. Should we force people to "integrate" is that what you are saying? What’s enough when the power differential is so big, the boundaries might continually be moving.
I would reckon that putting someone into a home is a very crude measure of a civilized state. If you read any literature re needs especially of Irish older people anyway who are frail, their own home is where they want to be. It is a failure of supporting the family and the individual at home, while the lack of community care services on the ground is also a contributory fault in all of this. 0 -
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Anyway i think the guards have more to be doing then shifting people around because we find them a nuisance on the pavement! We will be shifting smokers from outside premises next...We best not ring 999 on this one.
Interesting point there Tuppence!
Only last Friday night the group of smokers I was with (outside McHughs on Grattan St here in Sligo) got asked to move "along the window so as not to block the pavement" by a Garda. Hence, my confusion that this woman is allowed stay (incidentally, no sign of her today!).
I don't get what you mean about ringing 999? Is that sarcasm or something else?
I am asking people from the area their experiences/knowledge of this woman ala takola. I did not want to turn it into a big "we should all remember where we came from/society in general/lets all think for a minute etc blah etc" thread because thats not my point at all.
Simple question, simple answers.
So basically guys, am I right in saying she is legally doing nothing wrong?
A) By being there in the first place, day in, day out.
By blocking the footpath so you have to step over her trailing leg. 0 -
MikeySligo wrote: »Interesting point there Tuppence!
Only last Friday night the group of smokers I was with (outside McHughs on Grattan St here in Sligo) got asked to move "along the window so as not to block the pavement" by a Garda. Hence, my confusion that this woman is allowed stay (incidentally, no sign of her today!).
I don't get what you mean about ringing 999? Is that sarcasm or something else?
I am asking people from the area their experiences/knowledge of this woman ala takola. I did not want to turn it into a big "we should all remember where we came from/society in general/lets all think for a minute etc blah etc" thread because thats not my point at all.
Simple question, simple answers.
So basically guys, am I right in saying she is legally doing nothing wrong?
A) By being there in the first place, day in, day out. By blocking the footpath so you have to step over her trailing leg.
999 yes I am afraid was dry humour bout what priority the guards would put on it!
When you talk about shifting someone who is A) from an ethnic minority, a woman, C) an older person D) has a disability E) is begging it becomes less straight forward and a bit delicate, thats all. ( no sarcasm intended this time)
In fairness nothing was taken from takola. It sounded like a bad example of antisocial behaviour mind and my heart goes out to you Takola.
So she has been called a "con" for what exactly? (not the wheelchair thing) Just trying to keep in perspective too. 0 -
When you talk about shifting someone who is A) from an ethnic minority, a woman, C) an older person D) has a disability E) is begging it becomes less straight forward and a bit delicate
True.
I can imagine the uproar.
My only reason for calling her a "con" is from what I have seen/heard, she is doing relatively well for herself, compared to the "normal" beggar. That's my whole reason for starting this argument. There are worse off people not begging, so what gives/maintains her right?
FYI there is a different person begging outside the BOI today.
Seemingly from the same family. A little more vocal in her pleading, shall we say.0 -
Roving reporter from the ground.MikeySligo wrote: »True.
I can imagine the uproar.
My only reason for calling her a "con" is from what I have seen/heard, she is doing relatively well for herself, compared to the "normal" beggar. That's my whole reason for starting this argument. There are worse off people not begging, so what gives/maintains her right?
FYI there is a different person begging outside the BOI today.
Seemingly from the same family. A little more vocal in her pleading, shall we say. 0 -
I am just trying to promote a pause before jumping to conclusions about professional begging because to me it’s a dangerous concept and if used inappropriately it could be a way to victimise. Ah hey they are all getting enough, sure as much as me. The Irish social welfare is great. Therefore they are abusing the system...
What’s happened to our tolerance? If theres someone going slower ahead of us why does that irritate so much? If theres someone with one leg( for the love of everything sacred) on a pavement taking up too much space, live and let live. Is the pace of life really that sressful? What’s happened to our tolerance of diversity?
If these people are indeed Roma gypsies. They have been historically persecuted in concentration camps, and by many cultures, as well as Romania recently because of their nomadic lifestyle. Who says they are not trying to integrate in as much as they can. Is there language facilities for them, proper work placements etc. The family and family appears important to them too. Should we force people to "integrate" is that what you are saying? What’s enough when the power differential is so big, the boundaries might continually be moving.
I would reckon that putting someone into a home is a very crude measure of a civilized state. If you read any literature re needs especially of Irish older people anyway who are frail, their own home is where they want to be. It is a failure to support the family and the individual at home and the lack of community care services on the ground is what’s a contributory fault in all of this.
The conclusions you've jumped to are equally suspect then. I never said anything about abuse of the system. I suggested she use it rather than beg. I would've thought preserving the women's dignity was more sacred than squemishness about disapproving of moving along a one-legged begger.
Concentration camps? Persecution? These are massive and totally inappropriate issues to bring to this debate. Such spurious associations do not support you're argument, but deflect attention from the point in question, and substitute it with unassailable arguments about genocide and religious and political persecution.
A civilized state would take someone into care rather than see them sit on a footpath, begging from the public. I'm not sure why you would argue against that.
It's not a matter of "forcing" people to untegrate. I said I wouldn't expect to live abroad and feel hard done by because that countries hadn't taken the time to teach it's civil service to speak my language.
As far as moving her along. That's just the law. I don't make the rules.0 -
The conclusions you've jumped to are equally suspect then. I never said anything about abuse of the system. I suggested she use it rather than beg. I would've thought preserving the women's dignity was more sacred than squemishness about disapproving of moving along a one-legged begger.
Concentration camps? Persecution? These are massive and totally inappropriate issues to bring to this debate. Such spurious associations do not support you're argument, but deflect attention from the point in question, and substitute it with unassailable arguments about genocide and religious and political persecution.
A civilized state would take someone into care rather than see them sit on a footpath, begging from the public. I'm not sure why you would argue against that.
It's not a matter of "forcing" people to untegrate. I said I wouldn't expect to live abroad and feel hard done by because that countries hadn't taken the time to teach it's civil service to speak my language.
As far as moving her along. That's just the law. I don't make the rules.
Okay, perhaps I am guilty of being a bit inarticulate here. You hint as if they are exploiting our goodwill if begging, if they are in receipt of services/benefits? (rather than abusing the system, albeit our system as taxpayer!). They are essentially "begging for profit".
We have no notion what type of benefits this woman is on, what status etc. (She appears to be assisted in her accommodation) You suggest that no one should be begging if they are receiving benefit as if this automatically solves all their problems. It does however seem to absolve some folk of any need to consider their needs after this. This is a bit one-dimensional. And as you know people are rarely that! If people were all as articulate (compliment) as you then I am sure they would be receiving all the benefits and services entitled them, but unfortunately that is rarely the case. If there were decent community services then there actually would be accessible outreach services out there for people, but thats not the case either.
The first step to preserving this woman’s dignity (I would have thought) would be to find out what her needs are, by talking to her (!) and then trying to meet them if you had the services to do so. I really don’t think there is that type of work going on here. (Not even Focus) I just compared her to Irish indigenous older people who have on numerous reports expressed their wish to be safe with their family at home receiving care then being put into long term care. Now I wouldn’t be keeping her at home either if she didn’t want it, it would depend on what she wants.
Re language facilities, I meant resources to learn English as well as interpretation facilities made available for front line staff working with immigrant populations. (down a speaker phone line even) It would be lovely if people could take the time to learn English before they arrived but there may be other pressing issues concerning them at that time especially if fleeing.
Re Persecution you just say I am digressing but don’t dispute this. I think it’s important to give a bit of context. If people have been through hell they tend to carry baggage and that tends to affect the way they interact with others. Gosh it can even impact on how they do a job. *
I worked with a guy from Serbia who literally jumped under a table with a clap of thunder. Thought it was gun fire. *0 -
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i think what ever way the women sits, one leg is tucked in under her, think its a shame though that she has to resort to this, athough it can also be off putting for bank staff and customers,
the women oviously knows her self, by sitting near a bank, she going to get a large volume of passers by shes also going to get people with money or change
i'm surprised BOI have not tried to get her moved along, 0 -
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