Barnwell, Hansfield, near Ongar, Dublin 15

Zaph

ghusk wrote: »

I think that it is a disgrace that the banks can refuse the money now without giving an indication before that the mortgage wasn't looking likely, but I can kinda understand where Manor Park are coming from as I know if they start selling the houses for less than we bought them for, I'll be kicking up a fuss looking for compensation, like many others!

Well putting on my banker hat for a moment, everyone knew that property prices were tumbling so I fail to see how it's a disgrace that a bank should lend say €350k for something that's now worth €300k. Immediately their collateral is less than the amount of the loan they've given for it, so it makes no sense at all. I'd imagine that mortgages would still be offered for the new value of the house though. The only difference between this situation and one where a bank gave a mortgage to someone a year ago is that they know the true value of the property now and haven't lent much more than the value of the house.

On the other hand, if they were so inclined Manor Park could quite easily tear up the contracts you signed and re-price the houses, as was done in the aforementioned Ashtown apartments, and many other developments around the country. Surely it's better for them to sell a house for €300k than to just pocket a booking deposit and be left with an unsold house for god knows how long?

I do sympathise with everyone's predicament, it's unfortunate that the market has taken such a nosedive in the period while you were waiting for your houses to be built. However looking at the issue from a purely business perspective, it's Manor Park I'd be putting the pressure on, not the banks.

marksquirt

I'd be very disappionted myself if Manor Park reduced the house price as I only moved in at the start of Dec. That said I wouldn't like to see so many people left without the house they thought they'd have by now.
Is there an outright solution to the problem??

Zaph

Probably not, someone's going to lose out somewhere. If they reduce the prices people like you will have paid over the odds for their houses. However if they leave prices as they are, new buyers will be paying too much and will have to try and make up the difference between the mortgage and the selling price. The only solution would be for Manor Park to cut the prices and refund the difference to anyone who's already paid for their house and moved in, but I can't see that happening somehow.

robbie00

Zaph ists not that new buyers will be paying to much they opted to buy the property last year at a certain price and like everyone else who bought last year they would have seen a decrease in the value of the house so i fail to see any issue here. They agreed a price and signed the contract at the time when these houses were priced accordingly or people wouldnt have bought them it is not the banks or manor parks fault that prices have since declined.

Buying property/shares is a gamble as they can always go down but can alos go up. Each person who bought a house would have known this so i cant see why anyone now would be moaning about the house being worth less than the value they agreed on last year as this is what it was worth last year when they signed contracts and like every house in ireland they have decreased.

I do feel sorry for the people do who now have a shortfall of 20-40k between what the agreed with the builder and what the banks will loan them but unfortunately the banks are just trying to cover there ass as house prices dont look like rising much in the near future.

marksquirt

A hard one to call but I think you're rigght Zaph there's no easy solution to this and whatever is decided it's bound to upset somebody along the way

Zaph

robbie00 wrote: »

Zaph ists not that new buyers will be paying to much they opted to buy the property last year at a certain price and like everyone else who bought last year they would have seen a decrease in the value of the house so i fail to see any issue here. They agreed a price and signed the contract at the time when these houses were priced accordingly or people wouldnt have bought them it is not the banks or manor parks fault that prices have since declined.

I totally agree, it's not the bank's or Manor Park's fault, but it's not the buyers' fault either, everyone has just got caught out by the massive drop in property prices. Unfortunately, as is the way of the world, it's usually the little guy that comes out worst from it.

robbie00 wrote: »

I do feel sorry for the people do who now have a shortfall of 20-40k between what the agreed with the builder and what the banks will loan them but unfortunately the banks are just trying to cover there ass as house prices dont look like rising much in the near future.

I've no problem with the banks covering their asses, if they'd been a bit more prudent in the past they wouldn't be in the mess they are now. Unfortunately now the problem is where do the buyers find the extra money they are short? As you said earlier, it may in the long run be better for them to cut their losses, lose the deposit and buy somewhere else. The upside of that is that they may end up with something that that would have been beyond their budget a year ago.

robbie00

Exactly Zaph i would say there is alot of property within the Ongar Clonee region that is not shifting and would be now well within the price range of alot of the buyers in Barnwell so you might get some people losing there desposit and going for one of these. As you said this might even work out better for them.

If there are alot of people on this forum who are having issues with raising the extra cash I would suggest raising the issues with Councillor leo Varadkar as he may opt to approach the builder on behalf of a number of people that are having problems with raising the extra cash and they may be able to come to some sort of agreement.

Zaph

robbie00 wrote: »

If there are alot of people on this forum who are having issues with raising the extra cash I would suggest raising the issues with Councillor leo Varadkar as he may opt to approach the builder on behalf of a number of people that are having problems with raising the extra cash and they may be able to come to some sort of agreement.

That's now Leo Varadkar TD.

marksquirt

Anyone else experiencing problems getting connected??

PauloMN

How long (legally) will Manor Park have to wait for full payment when a house is ready before they can just keep the deposit and place the house on the market again? What are the terms under which the deposit is given?

I can't see them dropping the prices on existing sales i.e. houses which already have had deposits placed on them at a higher price. I wonder would they be will to add some extras to the house to get the deals closed, like tiling/flooring etc. rather than dropping the prices?

Anyway best of luck to anyone caught in that predicament, horrible situation to be in.

bigsam

has anyone any idea how legally binding these contracts are...
being in this situation we are now 20 grand short and have no chance
of making up the difference.....
if the sale falls through because of this are the banks likely to come after us for the money

robbie00

Hi Bigsam if the sale falls through you are likely to just lose your deposit. Like i said earlier you may want to Contact Leo Varadkar *TD*( anx Zaph) tro see if he can come to an agreement for you and all of the other purchasers having the same problem. It may be a case we the builder organises to give you the house for a lower price with a view to you signing a contract stating you will pay back the 20k in a certain amount of time etc jsut so they can sell the houses.

I would definately contact him in the first instance as he wouldh ave come across this issue many of times before and builders are more likely to meet a TD on behalf of a number of buyers rather than an individual buyer.

best of luck anyway, bu8ying a house is stressful enough with the hassle of this on your shoulders.

ghusk

bigsam wrote: »

has anyone any idea how legally binding these contracts are...
being in this situation we are now 20 grand short and have no chance
of making up the difference.....
if the sale falls through because of this are the banks likely to come after us for the money

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean when you ask if the banks will come after you for the money?

All contracts are legally binding and the developer is well within their rights to cancel the contract, due to non payment by due date and put the property back on the market.
When we were required to close, we were sent a letter stating that we were required to contact the site office to snag within X amount of days, and then we had X amount of days to close the deal following on from snagging. In legal terms the developer can send you a letter of breech of contract if you have taken no action by the final date and you are not entitled to your deposit back and the contract is broken (by you).
In reality the developers will probably give an extension on the dates provided in the letter if they believe that you intend to close the deal, but will not give an undetermined extension.
I hope that things work out for you all, but as others have pointed out it is a gamble to sign for any property, as the market can rise or fall from signing original contract until closing.

bigsam

what I meant robbie was the developer coming after you for the money....
as i said we signed for 315,000 but cant make that if sale falls through builder can sell later on for 250,000 and then come after us for the outstanding 65,000.... just how likely is that to happen?????...

Zaph

That wouldn't happen bigsam. The builder is only entitled to retain the booking deposit you paid if the sale is cancelled before you sign the final papers. Obviously you're not going to do that if the bank won't lend you the purchase price, so your liability is limited to the deposit. It's then up to the builder to decide what new selling price he wants to put on the house.

bigsam

but if we signed for 315 are they not entitled to that

robbie00

Hi Bigsam no the builder would only retain the deposit. So if your desposit was sday 30k on a 315k house he woulg get to keep the 30k you would lose your contract on the house and he could then pick his price to sell it on. Either way you liability is only your deposit.

Matty boy

In a similar situation as yourself, myself and my partner have until next week to sign for the house although we havn't even snagged, if we dont we will be brought to the high court for breaking the contract, the builder will then put it back on the market and apparently if he sells for less he will come after us for the loss. really sh*t situation, so we are going to try and negotiate a reduction of some sort. i need advice too. bummer i know.:mad: We dont want to buy as my job is quite unstable at the minute, but because im still employed the banks are still giving us full amount even though the property has devalued considerably.:mad::mad::mad:

PauloMN

Matty boy wrote: »

In a similar situation as yourself, myself and my partner have until next week to sign for the house although we havn't even snagged, if we dont we will be brought to the high court for breaking the contract, the builder will then put it back on the market and apparently if he sells for less he will come after us for the loss. really sh*t situation, so we are going to try and negotiate a reduction of some sort. i need advice too. bummer i know.:mad: We dont want to buy as my job is quite unstable at the minute, but because im still employed the banks are still giving us full amount even though the property has devalued considerably.:mad::mad::mad:

How are you in a similar situation? The others want the houses but can't get the funding from the banks, you can get the funding but have just decided you don't want to buy anymore.

Totally different situation.

robbie00

Matty boy if you do not want to buy and can afford to lose your deposit then just break the contracts the builder can only keep the deposit he can not come after you for anymore than that. Also depending on what deposit was paid it may work out better to break the contract as the house may have decreased by a bigger amount than you put down as a deposit.

For everyone else that appears to be having problems getting the money off the banks, I would suggest you contact Leo Varadkar TD who has an office in Ongar to see if he would be able to find a solution with the builders on the issues of the mortgages being reduced by the banks. He may be able to get them to reduce the prices or agree a loan for the difference depending on how many people are affected.

Gaspode

robbie00 wrote: »

For everyone else that appears to be having problems getting the money off the banks, I would suggest you contact Leo Varadkar TD who has an office in Ongar to see if he would be able to find a solution with the builders on the issues of the mortgages being reduced by the banks. He may be able to get them to reduce the prices or agree a loan for the difference depending on how many people are affected.

Surely you're not suggesting that politicians and builders would be friends and come to 'arrangements' with each other???!

marksquirt

Matty is this in relation to Barnwell or a different development?

Matty boy wrote: »

In a similar situation as yourself, myself and my partner have until next week to sign for the house although we havn't even snagged, if we dont we will be brought to the high court for breaking the contract, the builder will then put it back on the market and apparently if he sells for less he will come after us for the loss. really sh*t situation, so we are going to try and negotiate a reduction of some sort. i need advice too. bummer i know.:mad: We dont want to buy as my job is quite unstable at the minute, but because im still employed the banks are still giving us full amount even though the property has devalued considerably.:mad::mad::mad:

Matty boy

I have been to two solicitors to get a second opinion, and they both say the same, if we don't sign for the house by wednesday, the builder is going to issue proceedings to the high court, circa 20K per day i've been told, i don't want to purchase as my job is unstable and have told the builder this and he is still presisting we sign by wednesday, if we break the contract for the purchase price of 400k and the builder sells for less we will be liable for the loss and his court expenses, the house is worth about circa 330k now i reckon, WE have already written to the builders and said we will forefit the deposit of 6.5k if he releases us from the contract to absolutly no avail.Anyone know anyone who's looking for a 4 bed detached in barnwell ????:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Matty boy

Paulo, meant we were in difficulty regarding barnswell.

Matty boy

marksquirt wrote: »

Matty is this in relation to Barnwell or a different development?

Yes Mark, Barnswell Avenue.

robbie00

Matty im not sure of the laws in regards to your situation as you have signed the contracts and still are able to get the mortgage so surely if its going to cost that much going yo court etc and paying the difference you would be better advised to purchase the house and atleast rent it out??
The builder will look at the fact if the house had of increased in value to 450k in the last year you wouldh ave signed for it and then sold it were its decreased you no longer want to sign for it so unfortunately he is within his right and will bring you to court unless you sign.

Either way you have a big decision sign for the house knowing your in negative equity of 70k but you would still have the house or pay the court costs and the difference maybe 90k to the builder and be in debt 90k and be stuck not being able to get a mortgage again.

Other people are having problems getting the difference from the new valuation on the house and what they signed for whihc i only hope the builder will see sense and drop the price for these people or come to some arrangement were they can repay the builder the difference over a long period of time.

Matty boy

robbie00 wrote: »

Matty im not sure of the laws in regards to your situation as you have signed the contracts and still are able to get the mortgage so surely if its going to cost that much going yo court etc and paying the difference you would be better advised to purchase the house and atleast rent it out??
The builder will look at the fact if the house had of increased in value to 450k in the last year you wouldh ave signed for it and then sold it were its decreased you no longer want to sign for it so unfortunately he is within his right and will bring you to court unless you sign.

Either way you have a big decision sign for the house knowing your in negative equity of 70k but you would still have the house or pay the court costs and the difference maybe 90k to the builder and be in debt 90k and be stuck not being able to get a mortgage again.

Other people are having problems getting the difference from the new valuation on the house and what they signed for whihc i only hope the builder will see sense and drop the price for these people or come to some arrangement were they can repay the builder the difference over a long period of time.

I understand, however, if these people have mortgage approval why are the banks doing a re-evaluation ????
Because i went to the bank last Thrusday and asked of they were going to give me the full amount for the house even though the house has dropped in value,which they will, they can do an evalution at my request but it would be on file that i requested it!!!!! and this would show up in court as a mechanism that was constructed not to purchase,They also said it is not standard procedure to do another evaluation while the mortgage was still in approval ? this would have prohibited me from purchasing as i could not bridge the gap if the evaluation was done !!! Did these people request an evaulation ? If not what banks are doing it as standard proceedure ??

robbie00

Hi matty the banks are getting new evaluations done to limit there liability as they know for inastance know your house valued at 400k last year would only be worth 330k now so if you default on the loan after the first year there left selling the house for 330k and you still owed 390k so there out of pocket 60k which they wouldnt be able to get back.

most banks now are getting houses revalued as they know the house prices have dropped and are also changing the criteria from a 10% deposit to a 20% deposit being needed to again limit there liability. I am not sure why your bank are still going to give you the mortgage for 400k when they know it will be worth much less but you are lucky there are alot of people trying to sign there contracts in barnwell that would love to be in your situation as they could buy there house not being stuck after the banks revaluing the house and then there short 20-40k on the purchase of there house.

marksquirt

The last evaluation is done just before the mortgage is drawn down on i.e. just before the solicitor receives the cheque.
We had a valuation done when we applied for the mortgage and another one when we requested the cheque.

It's a bit strange that the bank aren't requesting a last valuation giving the current climate???

bigsam

we know how you feel robbie.......
we initally valuaed at ten grand below and no matter how we pleaded with the developer they refused at point blank to accomadate us .....now 3 months later we are 30 grand short still no commmunication..
soon our mortgage approval will elapse and may not be renewed.........
can they then take us take us to court for breach of contract??? i think so
i know its hard on developers too but this company has made loads of money over the years on many developments .....im personal very aggrieved that in the current climate they refused to accomadate a customer over 10 grand...now look at the mess we are in...
what happens our situation if mortgage expires???????? anyone know