New Learner laws - will anything change?

--amadeus--

I know that they were controversial when introduced but most people without a vested interest agreed that the changes to the laws around provisional drivers driving alone were overdue and right.

400,000 people driving on the roads without any formal test of competence is scary, particularly as this is concentrated in young drivers (and we all know that young males are statistically the most accident prone). Taking unqualified drivers off the road should have a positive impact on road safety and more formal lessons for learners should lead to a higher standard of driving and more 1st time passes. And if nothing else 400K cars off the road will ease congestion for a couple of months while the system catches up!

But the general feeling I've been getting on here is that the law will be ignored. Posters on some threads have been talking about driving alone on 1st provisionals with no problems, of taking down L plates so that they don't get stopped and making plans to buy a car on a first provisional because they "need the practice as well as lessons". It's all a kind of "business as usual" thing that suggests that they intend to ignore the changes in the same way that those on 1st, 3rd or 4th provisionals ignore the law now.

Obviously the key is enforcement. But there also has to be the will by those affected to change and by the public to support the laws. When the smoking ban came in a lot of people grumbled and claimed that it would be ignored but it worked well. Is this the same or will nothing change?

(and I know the license giveaway in the 80s was a joke but thats a side issue)

TwoShedsJackson

Clearly there's no way that all 400k cars are going to be off the road because too many people have become overly reliant on their cars to just stop driving.

It comes down to enforcement and then, if the new laws are enforced, how long it takes the general public to perceive that the roads are becoming safer and the general standard of driving improves. The only way it'll be impressed on people who take down their L plates etc. is if they're stopped and hit with a 1000 euro fine or two.

There will always be people ignoring the new laws, but there are people who will ignore pretty much any law that doesn't suit them so there's no real change there.

Wishbone Ash

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Clearly there's no way that all 400k cars

Apologies for being pedantic but many Provisional Licence/Learner Permit holders do not own a vehicle in the category in which they possess the Provisional Licence/Learner Permit for.

veryangryman

I cant see it running long-term. I note in a similar forum, somebody mentions the success of the smoking ban as a thumbs up for enforcement. I dont think this counts seeing as 99.99% just obeyed the law with few exceptions. I mean have any of you ever seen a Guard enforce that law?

My point is, given a few months and it going out of the headlines, will the cops bother? I dont think so

--amadeus--

Even half that number would make an appreciable difference, even if it is only temporarily.

I hope that the legislation is enforced - personally I think that better driver education and training would do more for road safety than any number of speed cameras and speed checks. It just seems bizzare that people will ignore a law because it's inconvenient and I have a feeling this will be like penalty points - an initial flurry of compliance and high profile enforcement followed by a gradual slide back to the status quo.

The point about the smoking ban is a good one - the majority wanted the smoking ban, or at least didn't oppose it. You have teh same thing here - the majority of people tacitly support this. However the smoking ban was self policing - if you lit up in a pub the barman, owner or other drinkers would ask you to leave. Someone would do something. The only people who can enforce the new laws are the Guards and thats where the comparison falls.

ZiabR

Personally i don't think we have the man power, in terms of Guards on the road to actually enforce these new laws.

The argument still stands as to the L drivers on our roads. Some need their car to get to work while other just have the car for the sake of it. I cant see the Guards enforcing this. You think the Guards are going to pull all L drivers they see to enforce these new laws? I cant see it happening to be honest.

I feel that instead of targeting our L drivers, the Irish Police Force NEEDS to get a grip on the Foreign cars on the roads. If you read about the crashes on the Irish roads in todays papers, alot of accidents happen because of Foreign drivers.

Some are in the country with cars that are in bits, not road worthy, not safe and would NEVER pass our NCT test. Some don't even have Tax or Insurance that covers them to drive in our country.

I feel that IF a Foreign driver wishes to drive on our roads they should have to under go our driving test, and HAVE to get their cars passed by our NCT tests.

cson

Its cart before the horse stuff in my opinion and I said the same around the time they announced it. Before you introduce the legislation that they are introducing in June you have to ensure there is a solid foundation on which it can work. For me certain aspects are crucial;

Garda Traffic Corps: We have a traffic corps as far as I'm aware but also as far as I'm aware they are woefully understaffed and are only visible in and around major cities and towns. Basically we need more of them to enforce the law and become a presence on Irish roads.

Driving Test: The current test lasts ~30 minutes and it is the only test of your driving ever should you pass. The test itself is a joke based on the fact that should you follow the letter of the law the first time you will drive on a Motorway will be after your test. I would want a more stringent and exacting test and more to the point I would want everyone sitting a test every 10 years (10 year licence when you pass, when it's up you must provide another driving test cert to get another one).

Waiting Lists: I'm not going to psalm on much about this other than to say they are a joke and a test needs to be available to anyone who wants it within 2 weeks in my opinion.

Speed Camera's: I know lots of people are against this but I'm all for it. Provided the Camera's are marked and visible I think its a good idea. If you know that you will get a fine and penalty points if you speed in a certain area then people won't do it.

Education: Vital to educate kids at a young age as to the importance of road safety. Personally, I would make the Theory test available to kids in Transition Year and also instigate a subject about Road Safety and Cars in general.

These are a few changes that I feel would make a fundamental change to driving on the road. If your licence takes time and effort to obtain, then people will have more respect for it and as a result will become more careful on the roads.

javaboy

logik wrote: »

I feel that IF a Foreign driver wishes to drive on our roads they should have to under go our driving test, and HAVE to get their cars passed by our NCT tests.

And likewise every Irish holiday maker abroad should have to take the driving test in that country before renting a car.


Can you imagine telling Johnny American:

"Failte go hEireann, Mr. Yank!. About your Hertz rental, I'm afraid you won't be able to drive the car until you pass our driving test..... How much is it?.... about €40........ Where can you take it? There's loads of test centres around the country............ When can you take it? .......... eh..um.. well the waiting times are hopefully going to be at about 10 weeks by June. .......You're going home when?"

javaboy

cson wrote: »

Speed Camera's: I know lots of people are against this but I'm all for it. Provided the Camera's are marked and visible I think its a good idea. If you know that you will get a fine and penalty points if you speed in a certain area then people won't do it.

I agree with just about every point you made here especially about driver retesting but I don't think all speed cameras should be visible.

You said:
"If you know that you will get a fine and penalty points if you speed in a certain area then people won't do it."

But similarly if you know that you won't get a fine and penalty points if you speed in a certain area then people will do it.

Most people who drive everyday on the same route know where the cameras (if any) are and just speed around them.

craichoe

javaboy wrote: »

I agree with just about every point you made here especially about driver retesting but I don't think all speed cameras should be visible.

You said:
"If you know that you will get a fine and penalty points if you speed in a certain area then people won't do it."

But similarly if you know that you won't get a fine and penalty points if you speed in a certain area then people will do it.

Most people who drive everyday on the same route know where the cameras (if any) are and just speed around them.

I think the average speed cameras which take an average speed over a distance are a much better idea.

Also with the Driving test and NCT for foreign drivers... that is the case if you register your car here already .. just like any other European country.

If you do it in any other European country you have to get your Lights swapped from Left to Right.

Our man in Havana

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Apologies for being pedantic but many Provisional Licence/Learner Permit holders do not own a vehicle in the category in which they possess the Provisional Licence/Learner Permit for.

Quite, Wishbone Ash. I hold a provisional in cat C (which you must hold a full cat B licence to get) and I do not own a truck. Does this notional figure of 400k take into account holders of Cat C and Cat D licences?

javaboy

Bond-007 wrote: »

Quite, Wishbone Ash. I hold a provisional in cat C (which you must hold a full cat B licence to get) and I do not own a truck. Does this notional figure of 400k take into account holders of Cat C and Cat D licences?

Whichever was most convenient at the time of publication of said statistic.

--amadeus--

400,000 is the number that seems to get thrown around on news reports and the like. You're right, would be interesting to see it get broken down.

According to this there were over 200,000 people on a 1st provisional in 2006 and this says that there were over 120,000 on a second provisional at the end of 2007 but a quick Google didn't get a concrete, Govt issued number. Assuming that the rate of new 1st licence applications roughly matched the number migrating from 1st to 2nd provisional then that's 320,000 car provisionals so I suppose 400,000 is a credible number.

My own opinion is that speed is over-hyped and that driver error (of which speed can be a factor) seems to be a greater issue. Foreign drivers are an easy target and they do need addressing but we need to put our own house in order as well.

The mindset is what needs to be changed. The fact that it is perfectly acceptable for someone with little or no experience or training to take control of a device that could kill them or someone else despite the law expressly prohibiting it will take a lot of time and enforcement to change. I'm not yet convinced the will is there to make it happen.

ZiabR

javaboy wrote: »

And likewise every Irish holiday maker abroad should have to take the driving test in that country before renting a car.


Can you imagine telling Johnny American:

"Failte go hEireann, Mr. Yank!. About your Hertz rental, I'm afraid you won't be able to drive the car until you pass our driving test..... How much is it?.... about €40........ Where can you take it? There's loads of test centres around the country............ When can you take it? .......... eh..um.. well the waiting times are hopefully going to be at about 10 weeks by June. .......You're going home when?"

Yes i understand what you mean. I am talking about people who bring their cars into the country for work purposes or so live full time. We need to get a tighter grip on immigrates and enforce road safety with them and not just the Irish themselves.

cson

--amadeus-- wrote: »

400,000 is the number that seems to get thrown around on news reports and the like. You're right, would be interesting to see it get broken down.

According to this there were over 200,000 people on a 1st provisional in 2006 and this says that there were over 120,000 on a second provisional at the end of 2007 but a quick Google didn't get a concrete, Govt issued number. Assuming that the rate of new 1st licence applications roughly matched the number migrating from 1st to 2nd provisional then that's 320,000 car provisionals so I suppose 400,000 is a credible number.

My own opinion is that speed is over-hyped and that driver error (of which speed can be a factor) seems to be a greater issue. Foreign drivers are an easy target and they do need addressing but we need to put our own house in order as well.

The mindset is what needs to be changed. The fact that it is perfectly acceptable for someone with little or no experience or training to take control of a device that could kill them or someone else despite the law expressly prohibiting it will take a lot of time and enforcement to change. I'm not yet convinced the will is there to make it happen.

The system is fundamentally flawed, I've outlined why in my post above. Also in my opinion Speed and Driver error are closely correlated. In my time driving I've seen many, many drivers take chances on overtaking and this is brought on by speed in my opinion. Regularly I see people overtake slower vehicles (Usually tractors or lorrys) despite oncoming traffic and force the oncoming traffic to go into the hard shoulder to avoid a collision.

Wishbone Ash

--amadeus-- wrote: »

400,000 is the number that seems to get thrown around on news reports and the like. You're right, would be interesting to see it get broken down.

According to this there were over 200,000 people on a 1st provisional in 2006 and this says that there were over 120,000 on a second provisional at the end of 2007 but a quick Google didn't get a concrete, Govt issued number. Assuming that the rate of new 1st licence applications roughly matched the number migrating from 1st to 2nd provisional then that's 320,000 car provisionals so I suppose 400,000 is a credible number

I think Bond 007 meant that he would like to see how the 400,00 is broken down between vehicle type categories. Many posters here seem to presume that all provisional licences are held in category B but there are thousands of people out there who have a full B licence but may have a provisional licence in another category. It is possible to have passed 5 or 6 tests and still be on a provisional for another category.

javaboy

logik wrote: »

Yes i understand what you mean. I am talking about people who bring their cars into the country for work purposes or so live full time. We need to get a tighter grip on immigrates and enforce road safety with them and not just the Irish themselves.

I think that keeping track of who is over for a holiday and who is over to work and live is a big problem for officials and the Gardai. Many foreigners stopped for roadside checks will be able to provide legitimate addresses in their home country and say they are on holiday to avoid any problems re VRT,tax or NCT.

Unfortunately many of the viable solutions to keeping track of foreign cars in Ireland involve Draconian/Orwellian measures which many people would be uncomfortable with.

A reasonable first move though would be to have an EU wide integrated points system so that foreign cars cannot avoid points here (and Irish cars cannot avoid points abroad).

javaboy

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I think Bond 007 meant that he would like to see how the 400,00 is broken down between vehicle type categories. Many posters here seem to presume that all provisional licences are held in category B but there are thousands of people out there who have a full B licence but may have a provisional licence in another category. It is possible to have passed 5 or 6 tests and still be on a provisional for another category.

WA, stop skewing the statistics! Pick one vehicle e.g. a HGV and stick with it. You can't always be chopping and changing.

You cant take hundreds of thousands of people off the road in a country with no public transport alternative without crippling the economy.

Its idiotic.
Its also an idiotic situation to have hundreds of thousands of unqualified drivers going around

This is the states fault for not having enough testers and allowing the situation to reach this far. People need to get from A to B. People have no choice but to drive. Dublin has some transport but not 24hr forget about the majority of the country the private car is the only mode of transport.

TwoShedsJackson

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Clearly there's no way that all 400k cars are going to be off the road because too many people have become overly reliant on their cars to just stop driving.

It comes down to enforcement and then, if the new laws are enforced, how long it takes the general public to perceive that the roads are becoming safer and the general standard of driving improves. The only way it'll be impressed on people who take down their L plates etc. is if they're stopped and hit with a 1000 euro fine or two.

There will always be people ignoring the new laws, but there are people who will ignore pretty much any law that doesn't suit them so there's no real change there.

Lets just imagine for a minute that suddenly the Gardai do checkpoints all over the place, country wide. Ruthlessly busting the learners.

If these people "got the message" and got off the road we would have alot of people claiming the dole and a gaping hole in our economy

--amadeus--

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I think Bond 007 meant that he would like to see how the 400,00 is broken down between vehicle type categories. Many posters here seem to presume that all provisional licences are held in category B but there are thousands of people out there who have a full B licence but may have a provisional licence in another category. It is possible to have passed 5 or 6 tests and still be on a provisional for another category.

I understand that - I think that the figures quoted are for Cat B provisionals, or at least that is the impression given by the original writers. Even if not the numbers of people on provisionals for heavier vehicles must be small in comparison to the hundreds of thousands on car provisionals? Otherwise we wouldn't have over 100K waiting for a driving test! Motorbikes could skew the figures a fair bit though, I wonder if they are included?

Cson - I agree with all you said except the speed camera bit. Speed in and of itself doesn't kill. The application of excessive speed in an inappropriate set of circumstances (like the overtaking you mention) does.

Driver deaths are a problem so you can allpy problem solving to it. To get to the root cause you can use the "5 Why's". Ask why 5 times and you get to the root cause of the issue. So: Problem - people crash. Why? They were going too fast and xxx (lost control, hit someone or whatever). At this stage the speed kills lobby stop and say that speed is the problem.

But ask why again - why was he going too fast? Perhaps because he was inexperienced and misjudged road conditions, etc. The real root cause isn't the speed but teh inexperience.

Logik - initiatives are in place to address non-national drivers but no reason we can't tackle both.

snickerpuss

I highly doubt that the waiting lists will be down to 10 weeks (which is still too long) by June. I'm waiting for a test in Raheny, when the Minister announced those plans in October I was already 6 weeks into waiting and I'm still waiting now and expect to be waiting for a few more months. Raheny has gone from 42 to 35 which is FAR too long a time to wait for a test.

If they really had a system where you could get a test within a fortnight/a month, nobody would mind not driving, but 35+ weeks is just silly.

Nightwish

I applied in November during the rush caused by the rashness of Minister Dempsey. I need to pass my test by April as my licence expires. I'm still waiting and chances are I wont get to sit the test by the time my licence expires and I'll end up on the permit system