Is there an Unforgiveable Sin?

The_Minister

Is there a sin that puts one beyond all redemption?
I asked this of someone a while ago, and they told me that Jesus said that he would not forgive Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Is this true? If it is, is this the only unforgiveable sin?

Akrasia

I don't understand, Seeing as the holy spirit, god and jesus are all rolled into one, why would blasphemy against the holy spirit be any worse than blasphemy against god or jesus?

It would be a bit like, getting really offended if you insult my left arm but not minding so much if you insult my face.

(is jesus being really protective of the holy spirit? maybe a little bit embarrassed about it?)

Run_to_da_hills

The_Minister wrote: »

Is there a sin that puts one beyond all redemption?
I asked this of someone a while ago, and they told me that Jesus said that he would not forgive Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Is this true? If it is, is this the only unforgiveable sin?

No, the "Mark of the Beast" will be the greatest test for all mankind is also the unpardonable sin for those that take it. The False Prophet will require it of all people and will bring the entire world into a single global economy, one a world government, and a world religion. In order to buy or sell, every person will have to have this mark IN his or her forehead or in right hand for identification.

"If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name". Revelation 14vs9&10

The_Minister

Is that Christianity, or are you crazy?
Or is the conspiracy theory about the New World Order somehow linked to the Devil, and I never copped?

Run_to_da_hills

The_Minister wrote: »

Is that Christianity, or are you crazy?
Or is the conspiracy theory about the New World Order somehow linked to the Devil, and I never copped?

I dont know where the origions of the term "New World Order" came from I believe it goes back centuries, It is written in Latin on the back of every dollar bill.

In more recent years the New World Order is used as a term used to describe the uniting of the world's superpowers to secure and aintain "global peace." World leaders are excited at the prospects for peace and there has been much talk about entering a "new era" and about the establishment of a "New World Order.

Mikhail Gorbachev was the first world leader to come out publicly with talk of a "new world order," and he did so nearly two years before George Bush caught the vision. In his historic address to the United Nations on December 7, 1988, the Soviet Prime Minister made this dogmatic and even prophetic statement: "Further global progress is now possible only through a quest for universal consensus in the movement towards a new world order."

Then in 1993, the New World Order was established as a legitimate national agenda by a socialist Democrat, Bill Clinton.

On Jan 1st 2004 Pope John Paul II rang in the New Year on Thursday with a renewed call for peace in the Middle East and Africa and the creation of a new world order based on respect for the dignity of man and equality among nations

In his September 21, 1992 speech to the United Nations, President George Bush announced that foreign troops, would occupy America and train for a New World Order Army. He stated:

"Nations should develop and train military units for possible U.N. peacekeeping operations. ... If multinational units are to work together, they must train together. ... Effective multinational action will also require coordinated command & control and inter-operability of both equipment and communications." New World Order and E.L.F. Psychotronic Tyranny

This New World Order or "The Global Government" has been a long time in the making its pieces fitting into place from divergent realms and different players. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I dont know where the origions of the term "New World Order" came from I believe it goes back centuries, It is written in Latin on the back of every dollar bill.

Honestly, rtdh, the pepper of a few facts might add some slight flavour to the salt of your dreams.

The phrase on the back of the dollar bill is "Novus Ordo Seclorum" and is based upon a line from Virgil which reads "magnus ab integro saeclorum nascitur ordo", ('a great order of the ages is born afresh'). The phrase 'Novus Ordo Seclorum' was coined by Latin scholar Charles Thomson in the 1780's, and it translates as 'A new order of the generations'. It refers to the hopes that the founding fathers had for the country whose laws they were enacting at the time.

The Latin for "New World Order" is "Novus Ordo Mundi" which does not appear anywhere, despite the protestations of a small cottage industry which says it does.

<sigh>

Húrin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

a socialist Democrat, Bill Clinton.

lol

Run_to_da_hills

robindch wrote: »

The phrase on the back of the dollar bill is "Novus Ordo Seclorum" and is based upon a line from Virgil which reads "magnus ab integro saeclorum nascitur ordo", ('a great order of the ages is born afresh'). The phrase 'Novus Ordo Seclorum' was coined by Latin scholar Charles Thomson in the 1780's, and it translates as 'A new order of the generations'. It refers to the hopes that the founding fathers had for the country whose laws they were enacting at the time.

The Latin for "New World Order" is "Novus Ordo Mundi" which does not appear anywhere, despite the protestations of a small cottage industry which says it does.

My miss understanding although I was forced to learn Latin in the Inter, but "Announcing the Birth of a new order of the generations' is the same difference. I dont particularly like using the term "New World Order" It sounds so fake and is flogged to death by conspiracy theorists.

The term "Global Government" is a more realistic term and this is happening. We have Global climate issues, Global tax and post 9/11 counter terrorism measures all at the expense of our civil liberties.

The_Minister

Can anyone answer my question?

Run_to_da_hills

The_Minister wrote: »

Can anyone answer my question?

I already did....Recieving the "Mark of the Beast" is an unpardonible sin.

Akrasia

i've got a pentagram tattood on my arm. Does that mean I'm definitely going to burn in hell?

PDN

The_Minister wrote: »

Can anyone answer my question?

The context in which the words of Jesus about the unforgivable sin appear is where the Pharisees were ascribing the miracles of Jesus to Satan. Many theologians believe that this refers not to a one off act but a persistent and continual practice of explaining away the works of God as being a Satanic counterfeit. The idea is that eventually such people's hearts become so hardened that they are impervious to any appeals for repentance or change.

I believe that this can still happen today, and that those who indulge in the following practices are perilously close to committing the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

1. Those who continually attack other churches and denominations as 'false' or 'satanic'. Of course there are things wrong with every church (including my own) but most churches also have good characters and genuine works of grace occur within them. However, you get extreme Protestants who can't talk of the Catholic Church without using the word 'Satanic', while many Catholics have called all other Christians 'schismatics' or 'heretics'. I believe such attitudes, if persisted in, may constitute blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

2. Godly biblical scholars have worked hard, and prayed hard, to produce accurate translations of the Bible through which millions of people have come to faith in Christ. Yet the proponents of one particular Bible translation persist in calling other translations as false and Satanic. This ascribing of the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan may well constitute blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

3. The Twentieth Century saw the fastest growing non-militaristic movement in human history when the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement grew from a tiny handful of people to a significant portion of the world's population. This movement is characterised by a belief in supernatural experiences and miraculous gifts. Even the movement's critics acknowledge the millions of people who have been saved and transformed by the Pentecostal movement. John McArthur Jr said, "For a bad tree, the Pentecostal movement has produced remarkably good fruit". Yet there are those who persist in referring to Pentecostalism as a Satanic deception. This too, in my opinion, is ascribing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan.

4. A particular poster on these boards keeps posting in response to almost every question raised about a work of God, "Maybe it was Lucifer who did it". Now, no doubt he thinks that he is simply being funny (after all, some people don't do humour very well) but I don't think it is smart to continually ascribe the works of God to Satan.

Black Swan

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In order to buy or sell, every person will have to have this mark IN his or her forehead or in right hand for identification.

Any relationship to facial recognition and fingerprint systems (Bio-ID systems) being proposed by the Bush administration in the USA?:rolleyes:

More on topic... My God (for lack of a better term) is benevolent, understanding, and forgiving, therefore there is not a sin that (S)He could not pardon.

Run_to_da_hills

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Any relationship to facial recognition and fingerprint systems (Bio-ID systems) being proposed by the Bush administration in the USA?:rolleyes:

More on topic... My God (for lack of a better term) is benevolent, understanding, and forgiving, therefore there is not a sin that (S)He could not pardon.

I would see the facial recognition and biometric fingerprinting systems (Bio-ID systems) as an assistant to any form of RFID smart cards because you are linking a foolproof form of recognition along with personal identification and records. This would be the ultimate form of ID.

The Hr418 Real ID card which was due to be rolled out this may in the USA but this was forewarded until 2011 because so many states rejected it as an invasion of privacy. Europe has a "similar" card in mind, no doubt these will be interchangible like all RFID based passports that have been issued globally since October 2006. This combined with Bio-id Systems would be an almost counterfeit proof form of ID unless you loose the card!!!!

Speaking on the subject, reading in this evenings Herald, the EU is is proposing to demand passengers travelling on domestic flights or between European Union countries to hand over up to 19 pieces of information including their credit card details and mobile phone number. The UK propose to extend these requirements to ship and rail travel. This exceeds what is required of on the Real ID card.

Similar article http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gAAz_QN-RFWuTfewjbSd1bz-AGtw

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

Yet there are those who persist in referring to Pentecostalism as a Satanic deception. This too, in my opinion, is ascribing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan.

Really? I would assume that these claims are levelled by members of other Christian denominations.

Run_to_da_hills

This blasphemy in Matthew 12 22 to 32 has to do with someone accusing Jesus Christ of being demon possessed instead of Spirit-filled. There are other ways to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but this was "THE" unpardonable blasphemy. As a result, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be duplicated today.

Jesus Christ is not on earth. but seated at the right Hand of God. No one can witness Jesus Christ performing a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. Although there is no blasphemy of the Spirit today, we should always keep in mind there is an unpardonable state of existence the state of continued unbelief.

There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief. Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit’s promptings to trust in Jesus Christ is the unpardonable blasphemy.

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief.

Where does Jesus say that you can't change you mind after you die?

Run_to_da_hills

robindch wrote: »

Where does Jesus say that you can't change you mind after you die?

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins". John 8vs24.

robindch

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins". John 8vs24.

That doesn't seem to rule out changing your mind after you die.

Húrin

robindch wrote: »

That doesn't seem to rule out changing your mind after you die.

You must be alive and conscious to change your mind. How can that take place if you're not living the eternal life granted to believers in Christ?

Run_to_da_hills

robindch wrote: »

That doesn't seem to rule out changing your mind after you die.

It dose because you are dead in your sin.

santing

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It dose because you are dead in your sin.

Hebrews 9:27 "... man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment"
Revelation 20:11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I think there isn't much space here for a change of mind.

Run_to_da_hills

santing wrote: »

Hebrews 9:27 "... man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment"
Revelation 20:11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I think there isn't much space here for a change of mind.

I think the above rules out "Purgatory"

Ekancone

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

My miss understanding although I was forced to learn Latin in the Inter, but "Announcing the Birth of a new order of the generations' is the same difference. I dont particularly like using the term "New World Order" It sounds so fake and is flogged to death by conspiracy theorists.

The term "Global Government" is a more realistic term and this is happening. We have Global climate issues, Global tax and post 9/11 counter terrorism measures all at the expense of our civil liberties.

Globalisation is nothing new, it has been evolving since trade first began. You swear von Rothschild and Morgan invented it.

robindch

Húrin wrote: »

You must be alive and conscious to change your mind. How can that take place if you're not living the eternal life granted to believers in Christ?

Does that mean that you believe that once you die, you can never change your mind? ie, that you remain for all eternity in the same mood, thinking the same thought, doing the same thing?

robindch

santing wrote: »

Hebrews 9:27 "... man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" [...] I think there isn't much space here for a change of mind.

There's plenty of space. Tomorrow morning, I'm going to have breakfast. After that I'll die. But with a bit of luck, it'll be forty or fifty years after.

Try again?

eoin5

Why is this so biblical? Shouldnt something like premeditated murder for capital gain be unforgivable too?

PDN

eoin5 wrote: »

Why is this so biblical?

Probably because you are in the Christianity forum.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Really? I would assume that these claims are levelled by members of other Christian denominations.

Indeed they are. I don't believe that church members are exempt from the possibility of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (I have a horrible feeling this could go down the 'once saved always saved' rabbit trail).

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Does that mean that you believe that once you die, you can never change your mind? ie, that you remain for all eternity in the same mood, thinking the same thought, doing the same thing?

No, I don't think it means that at all. Christ's parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 19:19-31) indicates that the rich man did indeed change his mind after death, but that was too late to change his destination.

kelly1

The_Minister wrote: »

Is there a sin that puts one beyond all redemption? I asked this of someone a while ago, and they told me that Jesus said that he would not forgive Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Is this true? If it is, is this the only unforgiveable sin?

Hello Minister, I've only skimmed through the posts here to your question may already have been answered.

To the best of my knowledege, there is only one sin that can be forgiven and that is final impenitence. i.e. refusing to ask pardon for one's sins and refusing God's mercy. If you refuse God's mercy, God cannot force it upon you. Since mercy comes from the Holy Spirit, final impenitence is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Despair is in a similar category and is particularly dangerous for people who are "hardened in sin". Those who have lived a very wicked life often believe that their sins can't be pardoned. i.e. they think their sin is greater than God's mercy which of course is blaspshemy because God's mercy is infinte and our sins are finite.

God bless,
Noel.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

From the bible:

Mark 3:29 wrote:

But he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation.

I deny the holy spirit:D

kelly1

Sean_K wrote: »

From the bible:


I deny the holy spirit:D

It's no good saying it now, you need to say it on your death bed...

Sapien

kelly1 wrote: »

It's no good saying it now, you need to say it on your death bed...

Why do you say that?

Run_to_da_hills

Sean_K wrote: »

From the bible:
I deny the holy spirit:D

There was a spate of this going on in Utube called the "Blaspheme Challenge". People were puiblicly denied the Holy Spirit. I dont think God would eternally condem anyone for saying this if they were not "saved as they would be ignorant of the "word of God". The unsaved person cannot understand God. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -1st Corinthians 2:14
I believe a born again believer would have some explaining to do if he publicly denied the Holy Spirit.

Bduffman

Would I be right in saying that god wants humans to forgive each others sins? If thats true then why doesn't he forgive us himself? Is it a case of do as I say - not as I do?

kelly1

Sapien wrote: »

Why do you say that?

Because while you're alive, all sins no matter how grave can be forgiven. If you die impenitent, you're a gonner.

kelly1

Bduffman wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that god wants humans to forgive each others sins? If thats true then why doesn't he forgive us himself? Is it a case of do as I say - not as I do?

You can't make someone forgive you but you can certainly ask for forgiveness. If we offend God by sin, why should God come to us with forgiveness if we have no intention of seeking forgiveness. We need to get things in perspective. God is the Creator, we are the creatures so it's only right that we should ask for forgiveness especially since God never sins against us.

Bduffman

kelly1 wrote: »

You can't make someone forgive you but you can certainly ask for forgiveness. If we offend God by sin, why should God come to us with forgiveness if we have no intention of seeking forgiveness. We need to get things in perspective. God is the Creator, we are the creatures so it's only right that we should ask for forgiveness especially since God never sins against us.

No I'm not talking about asking for forgiveness or getting forgiven. I'm talking about the need to forgive others. Are we not supposed to forgive others regardless of whether they look for forgiveness themselves? So therefore, we are expected to forgive others for doing wrong to us but god won't forgive someone for simply not believing in him - surely a lesser 'sin'?

Sapien

kelly1 wrote: »

Because while you're alive, all sins no matter how grave can be forgiven. If you die impenitent, you're a gonner.

Well, yes, that's what one would generally think. But isn't it the point that this whole "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" stuff is an exception?

"But he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation." Mark 3:29

The meaning seems quite clear.

JimiTime

Hmmmmm. Does one not first need to have holy spirit to blaspheme against him? It needs to be true apostasy no? Someone who knows God, and has his spirit, but betrays it. Annanias and Sapphira are the perfect example of such a sin. They had all recieved holy spirit at pentecost. See below:

Acts 5 wrote:

1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"
"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

Here is another example i seen in another thread. Cerebralcortex, responding to a poster said of God:

CerebralCortex wrote:

I don't like him he can take his eternity and shove it.

Now, if this came from the heart of a person who actually knew what they were talking about, i.e. actually knew Gods spirit, it would be unforgivable as it would be sin against the spirit. As it stands, its just someone collating info and making a choice to dislike the god he thinks he knows.
You must first know God, not in a, 'i read the bible so I know him' way. You must have his spirit to truly know him, and then betray it.

kelly1

Sapien wrote: »

Well, yes, that's what one would generally think. But isn't it the point that this whole "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" stuff is an exception?

"But he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation." Mark 3:29

The meaning seems quite clear.

I don't think there's an exception. It would imply that there is some sin greater than God's mercy which is blasphemy.

Another sin against the Spirit that I've just remembered is presumption. This is the presumption that one can continue to sin and that his/her sins will be forgiven but this still involves impenitence.

It is the Holy Spirit who imparts forgiveness so these are considered sins against the Spirit.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't think there's an exception. It would imply that there is some sin greater than God's mercy which is blasphemy.

Another sin against the Spirit that I've just remembered is presumption. This is the presumption that one can continue to sin and that his/her sins will be forgiven but this still involves impenitence.

It is the Holy Spirit who imparts forgiveness so these are considered sins against the Spirit.

God bless,
Noel.

According to who is the above the case?

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

According to who is the above the case?

The Catholic Church.

kelly1

Bduffman wrote: »

No I'm not talking about asking for forgiveness or getting forgiven. I'm talking about the need to forgive others. Are we not supposed to forgive others regardless of whether they look for forgiveness themselves? So therefore, we are expected to forgive others for doing wrong to us but god won't forgive someone for simply not believing in him - surely a lesser 'sin'?

A difficult one to answer. Forgiveness can only come from God and it seems to me that God only forgives when we have the humility to ask for forgiveness. That's the best answer I can give right now.

Sapien

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't think there's an exception. It would imply that there is some sin greater than God's mercy which is blasphemy.

Another sin against the Spirit that I've just remembered is presumption. This is the presumption that one can continue to sin and that his/her sins will be forgiven but this still involves impenitence.

It is the Holy Spirit who imparts forgiveness so these are considered sins against the Spirit.

God bless,
Noel.

So Mark 3:29 is wrong or misleading?

kelly1

Sapien wrote: »

So Mark 3:29 is wrong or misleading?

No, I don't think so, I think it's down to interpretation. You take it to mean that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means that you can never be forgiven but this would put a limit on God's mercy which is itself blasphemous. I take it to mean rejection of mercy of presumption of mercy. At any given point in time refusing to seek forgiveness cannot be forgiven but if the sinner later repents all is forgiven. Makes sense to me.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

kelly1 wrote: »

No, I don't think so, I think it's down to interpretation. You take it to mean that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means that you can never be forgiven but this would put a limit on God's mercy which is itself blasphemous. I take it to mean rejection of mercy of presumption of mercy. At any given point in time refusing to seek forgiveness cannot be forgiven but if the sinner later repents all is forgiven. Makes sense to me.

So blaspheming against the holy spirit somehow equates to rejection of mercy????

Two very different acts if you ask me.

The biblical verse is very clear. There is no ambiguity, no vagueness and no figurative interpretation. And all this the inspired word of god.

kelly1

I just found this:

The "sin against the Holy Ghost," which "shall never be forgiven," is a sin unto death. This comprises sins that embody a stubborn resistance to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost and His work in the soul, and an open contempt for His gifts. These sins are six: despair of one's salvation, presumption of God's mercy, resisting the known truths of faith, envy of another's spiritual good, obstinacy in sin, and final impenitence. Although no sin is absolutely unpardonable, those who sin against the Holy Ghost stubbornly resist the influence of grace and do not wish to repent. Hence their sin cannot be forgiven them.

Taken from http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=7053

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

The Catholic Church.

Ahhh i see. And they get this info from?

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

Ahhh i see. And they get this info from?

I don't know, I'm not a theologian.

Could I ask you what kind of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would be unforgivable? Could you give an example?