music cadences

TheRichPoorMan

can someone explain the cadences to me? i keep forgetting them.

also why can't we use the 3rd and 7th chord of a key? any time i ask the teacher she says "you just cant". I love diminished chords.

PurpleFistMixer

Cadences:
Perfect: V to I
Imperfect: I, ii, IV, vi (anything really) to V
Plagal: IV to I
Interrupted: V to vi

A cadence comes at the end of a phrase. Generally speaking, a piece will end with a perfect cadence, but it can happen that it ends with a plagal cadence (example: She's Leaving Home by the Beatles).

As for 3 and 7.. I don't know really, probably due to the diminished fact, and the liberal presence of the leading note.

Jay P

I don't think the third and seventh sound good, I could be wrong on that though. You shouldn't have to anyway, there's a pretty easy way method of writing melodies that your teacher should have told you.

anie_bawny

Its because 3 and 7 arnt on the syllabus so its easier to steer cleer of them,its just a way of making the composition paper as simple as possible

Léan

Diminshed chords are cool.

My music teacher is the same with the "you just can't" thing though. Down side of leaving cert music Despite music being a matter of opinion with melodies anyway, L.C. music is a combination of rules

Oh well.

starkinter

If you're using viiº, make sure it's viiºb; apparently that's the best position.

Fad

TheRichPoorMan wrote: »

also why can't we use the 3rd and 7th chord of a key? any time i ask the teacher she says "you just cant". I love diminished chords.

its not that you cant, its that your not allowed

my teacher (before i gave up music due to i had too many subjects) said it would be too easy with all of the chords available so they arent allowed

starkinter

Fad wrote: »

its not that you cant, its that your not allowed

my teacher (before i gave up music due to i had too many subjects) said it would be too easy with all of the chords available so they arent allowed

Are you sure they're not allowed? I've been using them in assignments all through fifth and sixth year without a problem...

Fad

well im not certain but thats what i was told

daggy

but chord iii came up one year, it was seriously controversial. Chord iii isn't on the course but if you HAVE to use it, as in there is no alternative then there are certain chord progressions you have to use on order to do so..

I - iii - IV
V- iii -IV
V- iii - iv
I - iii- vi
I - ii - iii- IV

my teacher is really serious when she says, "DO NOT TOUCH CHORD III " though..

Could somebody explain what is meant by " dont double up on the 3rd "? Thats when using inversions..

thedizzler

stakiner is absolutely right, that's the strongest position for the seventh, stay away from root postion! Same principle applies to third in inversions, its the weakest note in the triad, you want the strongest combination. As far as the chords III and vii, they can be tricky because they're, (again, you're gonna get sick of this), not strong. They're comprised, if you look at the triad, of some of the weakest notes in the key. I always assumed this was why they weren't on the syllabus. They can sound amazing, in actual pieces, as can diminished(oh, how i love me a diminished chord), but the thing is, since they're not on the syllabus, you can't get marks for them. Therefore, if you use it perfectly, you can't get extra marks, just the same as you would have for another appropriate chord, and if you use it wrong you're penalised, as if you'd entered the wrong chord altogether. When the odds stack up like that, ie, you can't win and you can lose quite badly(if you mess up your progression by trying to use one of these chords inappropriately), it makes sense just to avoid them altogether. I think. I got an A in the end, any further questions feel free to drop me a pm.

PurpleFistMixer

Is I to IV/vi not acceptable? o.O I do it all the time...

Oh, and the thing about the third is: If your chord is say, G B D, and the note in the melody is a B, and you use G B D in first inversion, the B will be in the bass, and that's a double major third and unacceptable. Why.. I assume it's because it's weak.. not entirely sure to be honest. It's acceptable to double a minor third, however. (So if your chord of ii is A C E, you can have iib if C is in the melody).
This is of course speaking from the perspective of the harmony adding a bass line to a given tune question.

daggy

A double major third... is that when you have the same note in the bass as in the treble? So basically you can't have the root note=bass note=melody note? man i am muddled here!
I got comlpetely confused in my mocks and just rubbed out all of my inversions

PurpleFistMixer

If the bass note is the third of the chord (that is to say, it's a first inversion chord), and it's the same note (well separated by however many octaves) as in the melody, then it's bad.

daggy

cheers... but when would you use a first inversion then? If you need to follow with the same chord , like if you have I and you need it again in the next box you use Ib ?

Jay P

daggy wrote: »

cheers... but when would you use a first inversion then? If you need to follow with the same chord , like if you have I and you need it again in the next box you use Ib ?

Yes, the first/second inversion is used when a chord follows the same chord, but only if there is no alternative.

Im not too sure about writing it because I always letters, eg. if it's the first inversion of the chord of A in the key of A, it would be A/C#. Similarly, the second inversion would be A/E. Just in case someone doesn't know why it's C# and E, the notes A C# E make up the chord of A.

daggy

Jay P wrote: »

Yes, the first/second inversion is used when a chord follows the same chord, but only if there is no alternative.

Im not too sure about writing it because I always letters, eg. if it's the first inversion of the chord of A in the key of A, it would be A/C#. Similarly, the second inversion would be A/E. Just in case someone doesn't know why it's C# and E, the notes A C# E make up the chord of A.

thanking you !

dintbo

Using inversions can also give you a better bass line. You just have to be careful where you use them. Never put them in the start of a phrase and avoid them in cadences as well.

As for the iii and vii thing, they can sound really good but only in specific circumstances, which is why they're left out. iii sound too much like I maj 7b. Right that looks really confusing so I'll use an example. In the key of C chord iii is Em (EGB) This is too close to a first inversion of chord I (CEG) but with the major 7 added and the root left out. This makes it a particularly weak sounding chord. vii can only really be used in this progression: I viib Ib. And this only applies to certain styles.

To put it simply they're difficult chords to use and are best avoided anyway.