Property Management Company - what are my rights / legal position?

Gandalf23

Like so many other people I'm having problems with my Management Agent (I'm aware of the distinction between management company and management agent btw). I've been doing a lot of research on this, and the whole thing seems like a big mess to me. I'm living in a development of 20 townhouses and 2 commercial units in Co. Kildare. Management fee is about €800 pa (there was about 25% increase for 2008).

I have a few questions you guys might know the answer to;

1. Are the management company/agents allowed to take over management of an "unfinished" development? All houses are completed, but there are unfinished portions of tarmac in the car park of the development and unpainted common areas (as well as a few other things left unfinished by the builder). If the management company/agents take over the unfinished development who is responsible for finishing all unfinished work?

2. What happens if the residents are NOT informed of any AGM (none of us have been to date and some people are living there since Summer 2006 ... I've been there since Christmas 2006)? We have also received NO annual accounts ... the only correspondence has been invoices for service charges.

3. Can we as residents collectively request that our local county council take over the estate if we are not happy with the "management company". Are they are legally obliged to take it over if we request.



I dont want this thread to turn into a pro v con management company debate please. I just want to find out as much info as possible before we the residents (aka the "management company" !!!) get our asses organised and kick the management agents to the kerb.

seagull

The first thing you need to find out is whether the management agent has ensured that the management company is compliant with company law.
Have they held AGMs?
Are the accounts correctly audited and lodged?
Has revenue received all the required paperwork?

Contact the management agent and ask them what happened with regards AGMs, and why you didn't receive an invitation.

bmaxi

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Like so many other people I'm having problems with my Management Agent (I'm aware of the distinction between management company and management agent btw). I've been doing a lot of research on this, and the whole thing seems like a big mess to me. I'm living in a development of 20 townhouses and 2 commercial units in Co. Kildare. Management fee is about €800 pa (there was about 25% increase for 2008).

I have a few questions you guys might know the answer to;

1. Are the management company/agents allowed to take over management of an "unfinished" development? All houses are completed, but there are unfinished portions of tarmac in the car park of the development and unpainted common areas (as well as a few other things left unfinished by the builder). If the management company/agents take over the unfinished development who is responsible for finishing all unfinished work?

2. What happens if the residents are NOT informed of any AGM (none of us have been to date and some people are living there since Summer 2006 ... I've been there since Christmas 2006)? We have also received NO annual accounts ... the only correspondence has been invoices for service charges.

3. Can we as residents collectively request that our local county council take over the estate if we are not happy with the "management company". Are they are legally obliged to take it over if we request.



I dont want this thread to turn into a pro v con management company debate please. I just want to find out as much info as possible before we the residents (aka the "management company" !!!) get our asses organised and kick the management agents to the kerb.

Welcome to the club Gandalf.

You will probably find that the Management company and the builder are one and the same, check the Companies office for the Company Directors or if you have any communication from the Management company, it should list the directors.
The Company must call an AGM each year, as shareholders you can demand that they do and they must furnish detailed accounts.
I would suggest that you form a residents association and try to get everybody on board to vote the directors off at the AGM and install your own directors. The builder may have properties in the estate and he would have a vote for every one he retains. One condition of having a vote is that all management fees are paid up to date.
Ring Kildare CO. CO. and ask them to send you a copy of their conditions for taking in charge of housing estates, I think twenty houses is enough but I'm not sure.
Above all, get organised, lobby local TD's, councillors etc. It can be done but be prepared for a fight. If you can collect a few bob together, consult a good Property Law solicitor. That's enough to be going on with for the moment, I'd say.

Gandalf23

seagull wrote: »

The first thing you need to find out is whether the management agent has ensured that the management company is compliant with company law.
Have they held AGMs?
Are the accounts correctly audited and lodged?
Has revenue received all the required paperwork?

Contact the management agent and ask them what happened with regards AGMs, and why you didn't receive an invitation.

The Management Agent is "Wiltshire Property Management". I'm fairly sure they have audited accounts and are Revenue compliant. I'll check tho.

What sanction (if any???) is there against Wiltshire for not informing us of any AGM's since 2006?

Gandalf23

bmaxi wrote: »

Welcome to the club Gandalf.

You will probably find that the Management company and the builder are one and the same, check the Companies office for the Company Directors or if you have any communication from the Management company, it should list the directors.
The Company must call an AGM each year, as shareholders you can demand that they do and they must furnish detailed accounts.
I would suggest that you form a residents association and try to get everybody on board to vote the directors off at the AGM and install your own directors. The builder may have properties in the estate and he would have a vote for every one he retains. One condition of having a vote is that all management fees are paid up to date.
Ring Kildare CO. CO. and ask them to send you a copy of their conditions for taking in charge of housing estates, I think twenty houses is enough but I'm not sure.
Above all, get organised, lobby local TD's, councillors etc. It can be done but be prepared for a fight. If you can collect a few bob together, consult a good Property Law solicitor. That's enough to be going on with for the moment, I'd say.

Thanks for the advice man ... good stuff!

I'm fairly sure that the builder has nothing to do with the management co as he has NOT retained any property in the development, but I'll check this.

We'll get our residents committee organised ... we have the stomach for the fight. We also have the ability to fight hard on this ... we have accountants, legal experts, a few PhD'd and other smart people living in the development.


Anyone know the legal position re management agent taking over an unfinished development?

bmaxi

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Anyone know the legal position re management agent taking over an unfinished development?

The Managing agent is just as the title suggests, a gofor, to do the bidding of the Management Company. At what stage they take over is purely in the gift of the Management Company and like any employee they can, subject to contract, be dismissed. In one legal action, taken for unpaid fees, the Judge dismissed the case because the managing agent had brought it, citing that they had no legal standing.

Gandalf23

bmaxi wrote: »

The Managing agent is just as the title suggests, a gofor, to do the bidding of the Management Company. At what stage they take over is purely in the gift of the Management Company and like any employee they can, subject to contract, be dismissed. In one legal action, taken for unpaid fees, the Judge dismissed the case because the managing agent had brought it, citing that they had no legal standing.

Do you have more info about this case? A link perhaps?

bmaxi

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Do you have more info about this case? A link perhaps?

The judgment was given by Bertie's friend, Alan Mahon, in the District Court on October 19th 2006. Bear in mind that the dismissal was on a technicality, and didn't absolve the defendant from paying fees. It was given on the basis that the Managing agent did not have the right to pursue the defendant for fees, that right lay with the Management Company. I just mentioned it to illustrate the Managing agents legal standing vis-a-vis the householders. I think you are making the mistake of a lot of people before you and getting hung up on the Managing Agent, this is understandable as they are in the front line but really your gripe is with the Management Company.
I should have said in my first reply that the developer and the Management company would be one and the same, often, but not always the builder is the developer.

Sar!

Agreed, in most cases sadly the developer and management company (well Board of directors of the mgt co.) are one in the same.

As far as I know as an owner you automatically become part of the mgt. co. when you buy but ultimately the developer decides who they use as the managing agent etc.. until they leave site/sell the last property in the development/turn over common areas or somehow get off the board of directors. So if you can get residents together to get rid of the current board of directors and thus managing agent that thats probably the best option. (The developer of the development I live in has been here 4 years now and doesnt look like going anywhere anytime soon as there is nothing to stop them doing it. )

FYI - apparently new legislation is meant to be coming in just after Easter time this year to try and combat issues with management agents/co.s/developers and help give owners some rights.

Last year many people in similar situations complained to ODCE (Office of the Director of Coroporate Enforcement) so it may be worth speaking to them about it too just incase.

As im sure you know www.consumerconnect.ie have some info on their site with regards to property management agents but it doesnt tell you very much at all and more than likely wont until this new legislation is in place.

Paulw

Without going in to too much detail - check the articles for your management company (check www.cro.ie). Check your legal contracts signed when you bought, giving details of your management company.

We took control of our development before the developer had finished with the common areas. We removed the sitting directors, by calling an EGM. We then also removed the management agent, and brought in a new management agent.

The transfer wasn't smooth, but the hassle was well worth it. The whole development is now being run a lot better. The developer is still working on the common area, and we are not accepting it's transfer until we are happy.

As for the council taking charge, you may find that planning permission for the development had a clause requiring a management company for a min of 5 years (or maybe more). Again, check the planning requirements and agreements.

If you need more info on what we did, drop me a PM.

Sar!

Delighted to hear you removed your managing agent and have more control over where you live! Im sure it wasnt easy! Out of curiosity PaulW are there many residents in your development? I ask because if the residents in the development where I live were to even try and attempt something similar it would take some serious organising as there are at least 280+ apartments! Im thinking it would be difficult to organise with such a huge combination of both owner/occupiers and investors who are renting their places.

Paulw

Ok, we have 112 units in our development. According to the articles of association for our management company, you only require 7 shareholders to call an EGM. So, we just got 7 people to sign a letter demanding an EGM, setting a date and agenda.

I also phoned the sitting directors, as well as sending them registered letters to their homes (their details should legally be listed on the CRO as directors), informing them of our plans.

After some discussions, and verification, they agreed that we were well within our right, and they made no objections and stood aside.

These details were specific to our development. You really need to check all the legal documentation. Many people moan about their developer and management agent without doing the basic checks, such as the management company documentation, and legal standings.

So, currently, I am a director of our management company, and we will be holding our first AGM since taking control in the next month or so.

Sar!

Brilliant - I didnt know that and certainly worth looking into to see if its something thats viable for our development. Its great to hear of people actually getting it done!

Gandalf23

I just wanted to keep everyone updated on this. I also wanted to thank everyone very very much for all the advice and support.

We formed a residents committee and got the local politicians involved. We knew the builder was the biggest chancer (and a total wan*er tbh) and the property management agent were also fairly useless. The first thing we did was ask the agent for a detailed breakdown of the fees they were charging us, and reasons for why we were not advised of any AGM's or given any of the annual accounts ... contrary to company law requirements and thus not allowing us the chance to challenge anything or vote the management agent out. They sent us a fee breakdown (they were charging us €4,500 for grass cutting and paying the subcontractor €2,600 ... and the sinking fund that some people had paid into was carrying a balance of €0 !!!). It made shocking reading tbh, and highlighted how much we were being ripped off.

We also had the local politicans check out the appointment of the management agent from a planning permission point of view. I got an email from the politician today in italics below. The email is from the planning section of the local Co. Co. (some changes made to protect locations & identities) ...

"One of the condions of the planning permission required the applicant to submit details of a management company for approval of the planning authority prior to commencement of development. I was not able to find any details submitted to date. We have certainly not approved any such proposal. When/if the developer submits proposals for a management company we will reply confirming that a management company is not required for conventional housing developments and ask them to confirm their intentions for the taking in charge of the estate which is required by xxx. If a management company has been set up and the residents are not happy with the arrangements I would advise them to ask the developer to confirm that the council have approved the management company proposals which was a requirement of cond xxx "


So looks like good news for us, altho I think we still have to be very carefull to do things right if we want rid of the management agent. The residents who paid management fees (me not included) are down about €3,000 each for something they should never have been paying for.

Altho this story is not over yet, it should give hope to everyone out there suffering under the reign of management agents. It should also highlight that some builders out there are big chancers when it comes to this.

I'll keep this thread updated as more happens. Anyone is free to PM me and perhaps I can give more details if that could help someone in a similar position.

G23

lynchie

Hmm... Im also having some issues with Wiltshire who are the management company for our estate in Kildare too.. I've had 4 bills from them so far each of which were wrong.. i.e. whoever was doing them didnt know what a debit or a credit was as payments I sent to them were added back onto the next bill. I know of 2 other people who have been charged wrongly so I guess its widespread. There is talk of our charges going up this year again, and from talking to one or two neighbours they have never been informed of when the agm is taking place. ( I assume by law they are legally required to notify us of when it is??) Ill be requesting a detailed breakdown of the budget and of last years accounts before Ill be paying next years fees.

Gandalf23

Hi Lynchie ... sorry to hear about your problems.

My advice is to form a strong residents committee asap. Have a look here for info on annual accounts and AGM. Dont accept blind increases in management fees without a very strong challenge from the residents committee. At the very lease request detailed fee breakdowns and details of bank accounts and balances where sinking funds and provisions for repairs are kept. The management agent is in contravention of current Irish company law by not holding AGM and issuing annual accounts. This is a big deal because it deprives you of the right to remove the management agent at the AGM. You can still do this at an EGM ... remember YOU RESIDENTS are the management company ... you have the power to emove Wiltshire who are simply the management agent.

Dont ever accept bulls*it like this. Good luck man.

G23

mazer

Has anyone had an legal action from Wiltshire Property Managemnt in Naas? Looking to see what cases/out comes in the Naas Court

darrendice

Hi there.

Wondering if anyone can advise me. I have been living in my estate for over two years. It is a housing estate as opposed to apartment complex, and there is a management company in situ. I have been served with notice of legal action due to non-payment of fees.

At the time of purchasing the house, we also had to sign a form to the management company. I never signed same nor have I ever issued a payment for management fees.

Does anyone think I have any legal grounds to fight this, other than the fact that the management company often let areas of common ground go unkept. The company do comply with the law regarding AGMs and accounts audited as far as I am aware


Many thanks in advance for any advice.

Sar!

Best to check the lease agreement you would have signed with your solicitor on purchasing the property. Basically if you dont pay the management/fees then you cant ever sell the property as it would have outstanding debt on it that cannot be passed on to another owner by law.

Paulw

darrendice wrote: »

At the time of purchasing the house, we also had to sign a form to the management company. I never signed same nor have I ever issued a payment for management fees.

If you never signed the forms, how did your purchase of the property go through??

Go back to your solicitor and check the conditions of purchase.

If you signed in to the management company, then they are well within their right to take you to court, and in general, they will win. You will then be liable for costs too, as well as overdue fees, plus any interest accrued on those fees.

You really need to speak to your solicitor. Any advice on here will only be a guess.

wilma1

Hi, I recently bought an apartment. The developers are still in charge of the management company and now we have been informed that parking in any area other than your registered parking place will result in your car being clamped and fined 120 euro. Is this legal practice for a management company still in the control of the developers? Apparently all visitors will have to park in one of only 7 designated visitor spaces(there are approximately 60 residences each with a designated space). Visitors will also have to call the parking agent upon arrival and inform them of the duration of their stay. No visitors are allowed to stay for more that 24 hours in one week. Can anyone enlighten me to the legality of this practice? This is a private complex of 2 blocks of apartments and one block of duplexes. The complex is gated with underground parking.

Sar!

Wilma1 as far as I remember the best comeback you have here is to quote to the Mgt co. the fact that all developments legally have to provide a minimum of 1.5 parking spaces per owner/apartment. (Im sure any solicitor will be able to check this for you 100%...)

Until the developers/mgt.co provide this they should not be able to enforce anything with regards to parking - this situation will also cause a lot of problems as of course there are bound to be some people with 2 cars....