4 Gardai Suspened Amid Assualt Claim

Sierra Oscar

Four members of the Gardai have been suspended over an allegation of an assualt, from RTE:

Four members of the gardaí have been suspended following an allegation of assault.

The four, who are of Garda rank and are from Dublin stations, were suspended today by Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy.

The Garda Ombudsman's Commission has confirmed that it is investigating the matter and has begun interviewing the relevant personnel.

It is believed a man has alleged that he was assaulted by the gardaí in a south city centre flat earlier this month.

He subsequently made a complaint to the GSOC.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0225/garda.html

Breaking News.ie has some info too - and it is important to remember that everything is in the early stages:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojaugbauau/

TheNog

Today's Indo reports that 2 are from Kevin St. and 2 from Kilmainham. 3 are male and 1 female. Apparently the fella assaulted made a complaint about a garda from another incident.

sunnyjim

They are suspended over an allegation?

Enough accusations, and a whole shift will be off the road

TheNog

I would hope that to be suspended there is some real evidence an assault did take place. Also reported in the Indo that management are trying to figure out why 4 Gardai were at this man's address in the first place.

She Devil

I guess there are certain rules for certain things ... but sometimes i think the in-house crew are a little too hard on the gardaí, surely they should still be allowed work .. innocent until proven guilty and all that???!
IMO this is where the scum win and intimidate the gardaí,various threats to them will back them off in fear they will lose their jobs over such accusations!
However i don't condone such behaviour IF it is found to be true!

Turner

Strange for the Commissioner to suspend at such an early stage of an investigation.

Maybe the force needed on the night was such that required the gardai to seriously injure the man.

There is no problem with the gardai doing that if it was required and as long as it was no more force than was necessary.

Hence let the Ombudsmans investigators (who are mostly ex cops) report their findings and reallocate the gardai back on duty.

OR

the cops may have battered him senseless for no reason, instances like that are always going to happen in any police force when humans lose their temper.

Trojan911

Chief--- wrote: »

Hence let the Ombudsmans investigators (who are mostly ex cops) report their findings and reallocate the gardai back on duty.

Lets hope they remain impartial then.

Turner

Sorry, as far as i know all the 46 ombudsman investigators are ex cops from around the world.

Its good that they all have experience of front line policiing and know what cops nowadays are up against.

Eru

My first thought is that this system is very similar to the original system in place when the complaints board was started.

What message does this send out? Make complaints and pretty soon there are no Gardai left as happened in Tallaght with the prossies.

The fact that there were 4 there would indicate that it was 2 car crews. Possible due to the previous incident the Garda wanted witnesses or backup. Either way it hasnt worked.

I do find it strange that the compaint was made a week later and by the mans mother if reports are accurate. He is 19 not a baby!

If its true then they are idiots.

Chief--- wrote: »

Sorry, as far as i know all the 46 ombudsman investigators are ex cops from around the world.

Its good that they all have experience of front line policiing and know what cops nowadays are up against.

They are also eager for results to justify their existence and inflated wages (twice an average Garda). Why else would they have made such a dramatic emtry in the coroners court on the last day of the Lusk inquiry?

Traumadoc

While a lot of us have sympathy for the Gardai and the abuse they face on a daily basis, the loss of control and the naked face of police brutality at the May Day "riot" a few years ago has eroded the confdence a lot of the public had.

TheNog

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

They are also eager for results to justify their existence and inflated wages (twice an average Garda). Why else would they have made such a dramatic emtry in the coroners court on the last day of the Lusk inquiry?

And at Harcourt Sq last year, Tralee last year. In both occasions they completely shut down the stations which was bit OTT and gung-ho. This time however they seem to be using a bit more discretion.

Sierra Oscar

TheNog wrote: »

And at Harcourt Sq last year, Tralee last year. In both occasions they completely shut down the stations which was bit OTT and gung-ho. This time however they seem to be using a bit more discretion.

I remember reading about the Ombusmen's actions in Harcourt Sq last year. It really does look like there was no need for such a dramatic entry.

Anyway, no information on this today it seems. I guess we wont hear much until the investigation has concluded.

eroo

What everyone has to remember is that the GOC is still finding its feet..it's learning from mistakes and gaining experience.

Eru

TheNog wrote: »

And at Harcourt Sq last year, Tralee last year. In both occasions they completely shut down the stations which was bit OTT and gung-ho. This time however they seem to be using a bit more discretion.

Yes, heard it was a disgrace ok, demanding statements and names from men that had just found their friend in that condition. Wouldnt back down until the chaplain asked them to leave and learn some compassion.

What I dont get is why they have sirens and lights, when will they be going to a life and death emergency call? They handle after the event complaints!

TheNog

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I remember reading about the Ombusmen's actions in Harcourt Sq last year. It really does look like there was no need for such a dramatic entry.

Dramatic entry indeed. I could almost picture them acting like Miami Vice, wearing sunglasses riding a speedboat on the Liffey with their Hawaiian shirts blowing in the breeze.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

What I dont get is why they have sirens and lights, when will they be going to a life and death emergency call? They handle after the event complaints!

That is a very valid point. Why do they have lights and sirens?
Suppose maybe if they needed to chase a patrol car to question the observer on why he didn't iron his shirt!!!
And why the hell do they get cool cars with nice paint jobs when we get the likes of Opel Astras, Ford Focusetc?

sunnyjim

I thought the same as you Nog when I saw the car driving around Fairview.

Shocking really, decent cars for doing sweet F-all!

the locust

Saw GOC jeeps at HQ yesterday, allegedly investigating the 4 suspended. Dude in the jeep was starin me out of it!

the locust

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Yes, heard it was a disgrace ok, demanding statements and names from men that had just found their friend in that condition. Wouldnt back down until the chaplain asked them to leave and learn some compassion.

What I dont get is why they have sirens and lights, when will they be going to a life and death emergency call? They handle after the event complaints!

I suppose they have to investigate Road Traffic Collisions just as Gardai do and may need lights, not for chasing but for getting to a scene and for High Viz at a Traffic Accident

TheNog

the locust wrote: »

I suppose they have to investigate Road Traffic Collisions just as Gardai do and may need lights, not for chasing but for getting to a scene and for High Viz at a Traffic Accident

Curse you Locust I'm still holding onto my vision of Crocket and Tubbs

cushtac

Trojan911 wrote: »

Lets hope they remain impartial then.

As far as I know, all the investigators are from the UK & other common law countries. They have no reason to side with the Gardai.

Trojan911

cushtac wrote: »

As far as I know, all the investigators are from the UK & other common law countries. They have no reason to side with the Gardai.

It would be seen to be open, honest a fair then which will silence the critical public "cover up" mantra.

Eru

the locust wrote: »

I suppose they have to investigate Road Traffic Collisions just as Gardai do and may need lights, not for chasing but for getting to a scene and for High Viz at a Traffic Accident

But thats my point, its for 'emergancy use'. They arent emergency responders. They dont rush to scenes to save lives or arrest dangerous criminals who are hurting people.

A car crash involving a Garda will only be apparant after Gardai are at scene and establish the identity of all parties. They wont get the call until after Gardai and / or ambulance are at the scene. Besides, they can only take over a scene if the allegation against Gardai is more serious than what the Gardai are investigating such as a minor traffic stop which results in a Garda doing a Rodney King and when has that happened?

remmurts

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

...a minor traffic stop which results in a Garda doing a Rodney King and when has that happened?

Fairbrother !!! (I'm going back years here)

He did manage to hoodwink a lot of media and polite society with his "tale." He got a big payout. Several Gardai were reassigned under a cloud...but they came out of it pretty well. Not sure they outcome would be as favourable to the police with the new Ombudsman investigating.

Eru

remmurts wrote: »

Fairbrother !!! (I'm going back years here)

He did manage to hoodwink a lot of media and polite society with his "tale." He got a big payout. Several Gardai were reassigned under a cloud...but they came out of it pretty well. Not sure they outcome would be as favourable to the police with the new Ombudsman investigating.

And yet the compaint was still after the incident not during which is the point im trying to make. If that happened now it would still be at least a day later that the ombudsman became involved which means no siren is necessary.

I just cant see any genuine reason for them too be marked with lights and sirens. Its media whoring at its finest so everytime they roll out the door or upto a station the media and public will see it.

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Its media whoring at its finest so everytime they roll out the door or upto a station the media and public will see it.

It is I agree, and the media feed on this new aspect in policing, however, look at it this way. The GOC are being seen to arrive at the "scene" to deal with an allegation/investigation. It will quell the non believers of saying the usual "cover up".

It is positive media for the Gardai. No one can no longer say that complaints are being covered up.

The four members that have been suspended, in my opinion, are going throught a process, which is new to the force, and if they have nothing to fear they will be exonorated & returned to duty. It is part of the package of being a member. Times have changed.

TheNog

remmurts wrote: »

Fairbrother !!! (I'm going back years here)

He did manage to hoodwink a lot of media and polite society with his "tale." He got a big payout. Several Gardai were reassigned under a cloud...but they came out of it pretty well. Not sure they outcome would be as favourable to the police with the new Ombudsman investigating.

I tried google ing Fairbrother's name and came up with the incident and court judgement only.

What was his "tale"? and what was the outcome for the Gardai? I can only find the two skippers were sent forward for a tribunal

vasch_ro

my understanding is that in the early days they blue lighted it here and there, but no longer, they have no legal basis under the Road Traffic Act to be fitted with blue lights which are for emergency vehicles only.

sunnyjim

Here it is Nog.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0382/D.0382.198806210132.html

Holy ****.

TheNog

sunnyjim wrote: »

Here it is Nog.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0382/D.0382.198806210132.html

Holy ****.

Seems like a terrible thing done on him. I could never stand back and watch a prisoner being beaten no matter what he did.

eroo

Tbh,I think Gardai who behave like that or even give someone 'a few slaps' as it used to be,is THE worst sort of criminal there is.Simply because it is a sickening and disgusting abuse of power,instead of protecting and serving those in the community..I personally believe any Gardai who assault anyone on or off-duty should be axed from the force.

Incidents like the Fairbrother story are what turns people against the vast majority decent Garda force,all due to the action of a few degenerates.I personally believe the days of 'a few slaps' are gone .Obviously,in EVERY police force there will ALWAYS be those who abuse their powers but they always have been,and always will be a minority.

Finally,I think the GOC is something that will only benefit the Gardai.It will take time to get its feet on the ground....but I think it will help restore some peoples confidence in GS when they see that it isn't Gardai investigating Gardai anymore..and in some cases it's not even Irish investigating Irish..they will change their views.
Again,cases like the Fairbrother one just show how the actions of a few can determine some of the publics opinion on the majority.


Rant over..I feel better now!

remmurts

The link you have posted is Fairbrother's version of events. Dick Spring's name was forever dirt among the membership because he stood up in the Dail and gave, as gospel, one side of the story. It never occured to him to wait until the investigation was complete.

The Gardai involved gave a completely different account of events. Dick Spring never mentioned their side of the story in his remarks.

sunnyjim

I'm generally behind the Gardai, but there were witnesses were there not?

What story did the Gardai involved give? Did he actually come out with those injuries? Was an ambulance turned away?

sgt.bilko

just as a matter of interest, one of irelands finest is a relative of mine and was unfortunate enough to be in HS that morning. Just what was the reaction of the GO as he hasn't opened up to me since?

Eru

sunnyjim wrote: »

I'm generally behind the Gardai, but there were witnesses were there not?

What story did the Gardai involved give? Did he actually come out with those injuries? Was an ambulance turned away?

Dont know about ambulance etc but it was his friends in the car that were witnesses. They were as reliable as biased as people assume the assisting Gardai were.

Did it happen? Only those involved know for sure.

Traumadoc

He received a large compensation.

Eru

Traumadoc wrote: »

He received a large compensation.

State dont fight cases unless the compo could be huge or lead to duplicate claims such as the deafness claims. A payout in the region of 50 grand is nothing too the state.

The last case I know the state faought that was Garda related was a woman who sued the Gardai because they failed to protect her from the uninsured bike driver that was giving her a lift. When he fled a checkpoint he crashed and she said that the Gardai failed in their duty of care because he wouldnt have speeded if they hadnt gone after him!!!!! She was awared damages and the state appealed and won.

Imagine the claims if that had been upheld? "yeah Judge da pigs didnt stop me from jumping in da 'stoler' car me 12 year old mate was rallying, they shudda pulled me out before we hit da wall!"

Traumadoc

They did fight it because the award was so large and they lost. There can be no excuse for what happened to that man who was left brain damaged as a result of the assault.

Eru

Traumadoc wrote: »

They did fight it because the award was so large and they lost. There can be no excuse for what happened to that man who was left brain damaged as a result of the assault.

No they didnt fight it, they settled out of court before a judgement. No court either criminal or civil ever found in his favour or that the Gardai were guilty of any wrong doing. A complaints board investigation, DPP file and a tribunal didnt finish in any prosecutions against Gardai.

I am being even minded when I say no one really knows but according to law and presumption of innocence they were innocent and didnt assault him just as he wasnt drunk driving.

His brain damage also wasnt documented beyond his own statements and the press. He was released from hospital pretty fast for someone who was brain damaged and why in the cimplaint made on his behalf was only cuts and bruises mentioned?

There are other inconsistancies in this, the original ambulance staff stated they heard him shouting 'like a madman' and wouldnt take him without a Garda escort. His family say they heard him shouting 'help me' but he claims to have been knocked unconscious.

Now shouting 'like a madman' doesnt mean he was the aggressor but shouting 'help me' doesnt mean hes the victim either. At what stages was he heard shouting these things around being unconscience?

So like I said before, we can have our opinions about what happened but ultimately only those involved know the truth but you either respect the presumption of innocence or you dont.

Traumadoc

Many of us feel that there is little to protect innocent parties from agents of the state acting above the law. I have recently come across a case where I felt that the use of the omburdsman is excessive - but the problem in Donegal and other cases have shown the need to have some mechanism to police the police.

Eru

Traumadoc wrote: »

I have recently come across a case where I felt that the use of the omburdsman is excessive - but the problem in Donegal and other cases have shown the need to have some mechanism to police the police.

Without a shadow of a doubt.

Donegal, what the hell happened up there is beyond me but I agree that we need mechanisms in place. The issue I have is that an outside agency on bigger bucks than the police have an agenda and a need to justify their public opening and their wages. I have a genuine fear that they will not operate fairly and without bias.

Statistically the complaints board had less prosecutions against Gardai than internal affairs did. Thats not uncommon the world over. Police know the police so who better to catch a corrupt one?

Metman may or may not agree with me here but CIB in the Met was (to the outside world) an internal affairs department with an excellent record. Also the NYPD IA department cleaned up a corrupt force and appears to have kept it clean to such a degree that any other agency is not worth considering.

You also need to look at recruitment policies, wages, discipline regulations, etc. The NYPD had less stringent background requirements than they do now and their wages have been increased. Debt can be a terrible temptation to a man.

You cant take a crap within the Gardai without having written permission and being alocated a designated amount of paper which you applied for in advance.

The fact that the state A, pays out to avoid possible bad PR and B, the Gardai as an agency or as individuals cannot speak out or seek damages for libel when papers print complete and utter lies leaves a lot of accusations hanging in the air which people believe simple because the Gardai dont / cant show otherwise.

theres also a fear concerning the fact that GOSC step in whenever a Garda is involved even off duty. For example if I am assaulted off duty its GOSC that investigates but they dont investigate my complaint or both parties. They only investigate me, they have no powers to investigate, arrest or question my attacker. The recent fatal crash being an example, only for witnesses coming forward at the scene that Garda would have faced possible months of questions and suspicion. Had the other driver not been killed, may he rest in peace, he could have avoided prosecution by simple sitting back and letting the clock tick away.

Cases WILL be lost as a result of this.

Traumadoc

Yea the guy i was involved with was injured (severely) while being chased - Not the Guards fault in the least- still the Omburdsmen were on to it like a flash.

Ruen

vasch_ro wrote: »

my understanding is that in the early days they blue lighted it here and there, but no longer, they have no legal basis under the Road Traffic Act to be fitted with blue lights which are for emergency vehicles only.

The Garda Síochána will be mindful of the entitlement of official GSOC vehicles and of officers and
members of GSOC, designated under Section 98(they have the same powers as any Garda), while on duty, to exemptions and privileges under
Section 27 and any other provisions of the Road Traffic Acts

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Without a shadow of a doubt.

The issue I have is that an outside agency on bigger bucks than the police have an agenda and a need to justify their public opening and their wages.

Yeah they do have an agenda alright, to provide the public with an independent authority to investigate complaints against the Gardai, the fact that they're on more money makes sense really. They need to justify their wages as much as AGS needs to justify theirs.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I have a genuine fear that they will not operate fairly and without bias.

Well compare that fear with the old Complaints Board who were actual serving Gardai investigating complaints against Gardai, if anything was biased it be that, now the GOC has no reason to be biased because they are completely independent so they only answer to the Minister and not the Guard or complainant in any particular case-fair for everybody involved.

vasch_ro wrote: »

Statistically the complaints board had less prosecutions against Gardai than internal affairs did. Thats not uncommon the world over. Police know the police so who better to catch a corrupt one?

An independent organisation staffed by experienced investigators including former police from wherever i.e. GOC

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Metman may or may not agree with me here but CIB in the Met was (to the outside world) an internal affairs department with an excellent record. Also the NYPD IA department cleaned up a corrupt force and appears to have kept it clean to such a degree that any other agency is not worth considering.

Yeah but independent is the way forward thats why they got the IPCC in England.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

You also need to look at recruitment policies, wages, discipline regulations, etc. The NYPD had less stringent background requirements than they do now and their wages have been increased. Debt can be a terrible temptation to a man.

Well seeing as how the NYPD are the highest paid PD in the states yet the Gardai still get paid more than them that should never be a problem for our boys:)

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

The fact that the state A, pays out to avoid possible bad PR and B, the Gardai as an agency or as individuals cannot speak out or seek damages for libel when papers print complete and utter lies leaves a lot of accusations hanging in the air which people believe simple because the Gardai dont / cant show otherwise.

Well people believe alot of crap about the Gardai and have alot of opinions on the Gardai but thats one of the joys of being a police officer the world over and the fact that Gardai cant speak out about anything being said in the media is part of what they signed up for so it's just tough.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

theres also a fear concerning the fact that GOSC step in whenever a Garda is involved even off duty. For example if I am assaulted off duty its GOSC that investigates but they dont investigate my complaint or both parties. They only investigate me, they have no powers to investigate, arrest or question my attacker. The recent fatal crash being an example, only for witnesses coming forward at the scene that Garda would have faced possible months of questions and suspicion. Had the other driver not been killed, may he rest in peace, he could have avoided prosecution by simple sitting back and letting the clock tick away.

Cases WILL be lost as a result of this.

There are specific guidelines around dealing with these situations and senior Gardai are well aware of them, you should check them out because you seem a bit confused about it, the GOC can question Garda prisoners and witnesses, also they are aware of any criminal investigations and AGS jurisdiction in criminal matters(i.e. you getting assaulted off duty) so they dont obstruct their work, they dont exactly storm in and shut down a whole incident scenes either and start grilling a single Guard that might've been involved in crash for instance while the Gardai have to stand by and twiddle their thumbs meanwhile the drunk driver is sobering up for the breathalyser

cushtac

Ruen wrote: »

Well seeing as how the NYPD are the highest paid PD in the states yet the Gardai still get paid more than them that should never be a problem for our boys:)

Off-topic, but the NYPD are nowhere near the highest paid police in the US. The NYPD salary starts at $25k a year.

Ruen

cushtac wrote: »

Off-topic, but the NYPD are nowhere near the highest paid police in the US. The NYPD salary starts at $25k a year.

Thats when training, after 6 months academy they jump to $33k then after only 5 years service they hit $60k base which doesnt include OT, holiday pay and rest of extras.

cushtac

Ruen wrote: »

Thats when training, after 6 months academy they jump to $33k then after only 5 years service they hit $60k base which doesnt include OT, holiday pay and rest of extras.

That's still not the highest. Suffolk County PD in upstate NY pays it's officers around $57k basic to begin with, and there's plenty of other forces that pay higher.

Eru

Ruen wrote: »

The Garda Síochána will be mindful of the entitlement of official GSOC vehicles and of officers and
members of GSOC, designated under Section 98(they have the same powers as any Garda), while on duty, to exemptions and privileges under
Section 27 and any other provisions of the Road Traffic Acts

Eh, that anyone convicted for an offence shall be disqualified from driving???????? (1961 act) Definition of a 'sample'? (1968 act) I could go on. The fact of the matter is that Gardai cannot use lights and sirens while speeding just to take a statement for an investigation therefore under what circumstances would GSOC be justified?

Ruen wrote: »

Yeah they do have an agenda alright, to provide the public with an independent authority to investigate complaints against the Gardai, the fact that they're on more money makes sense really. They need to justify their wages as much as AGS needs to justify theirs.

So whats AGS or IA's agenda and why should someone in no danger be worth twice the wages of those that are putting themselves in danger such as Gardai, firemen, etc? What justifies their higher earnings?

Ruen wrote: »

Well compare that fear with the old Complaints Board who were actual serving Gardai investigating complaints against Gardai, if anything was biased it be that, now the GOC has no reason to be biased because they are completely independent so they only answer to the Minister and not the Guard or complainant in any particular case-fair for everybody involved.

Well as already stated IA around the world have superior records to that of any ombudsman. But if your assuming that an Ombudsman just started up and in the public eye have no reason to be biased then why would Gardai be biased or unfair? Its the same thing. You think Gardai are corrupt but dont apply the same assumption to GSOC?????? That makes no sense.

Ruen wrote: »

An independent organisation staffed by experienced investigators including former police from wherever i.e. GOC

Ruen wrote: »

Yeah but independent is the way forward thats why they got the IPCC in England.

Have you got any evidence to support these assumptions and statements?

Ruen wrote: »

Well seeing as how the NYPD are the highest paid PD in the states yet the Gardai still get paid more than them that should never be a problem for our boys:)

Well thats just plain wrong for a starter, how did you reach that opinion? However you have failed to realise my point entirely. They are on higher wages NOW. The corruption was throughout the 70s and 80s!

Ruen wrote: »

Well people believe alot of crap about the Gardai and have alot of opinions on the Gardai but thats one of the joys of being a police officer the world over and the fact that Gardai cant speak out about anything being said in the media is part of what they signed up for so it's just tough.

Well thats a great point. People believe rubbish and lies so thats that, why try to fix somethings that clearly broken??? Perhaps we should apply that reasoning across the board? The firemen in Bray knew what was happening afterall. Nurses knew the wages when they signed up didnt they? In fact on that basis why not just disband labour laws, unions and all employee rights. Afterall if your not happy with the situation then dont join.

Ruen wrote: »

There are specific guidelines around dealing with these situations and senior Gardai are well aware of them, you should check them out because you seem a bit confused about it, the GOC can question Garda prisoners and witnesses, also they are aware of any criminal investigations and AGS jurisdiction in criminal matters(i.e. you getting assaulted off duty) so they dont obstruct their work, they dont exactly storm in and shut down a whole incident scenes either and start grilling a single Guard that might've been involved in crash for instance while the Gardai have to stand by and twiddle their thumbs meanwhile the drunk driver is sobering up for the breathalyser

The situation is that the more serious allegation takes over AT A SCENE and if they are equal then the senior officer at the scene takes control. Again you miss the point. At the recent crash GSOC took control of the scene despite no evidence supporting an allegation against the Garda.

The scenario I stated was if there are two people bloodied and battered in the middle of the street and one is a Garda then GSOC take over. where you get the opinion that GSOC can interview or investigate civilians is beyond me. Their own instructions are clear. GSOC cannot investigate complaints or allegations made by Gardai. Based on this they are immediately biased. Its a simple fact, if you can only investigate one party of two you are not impartial you are biased. In fact they cannot even interview Student Gardai but I know one case where they threatened a student with being arrested and the sack unless he changed his voluntary statement despite the fact they could not do either and its illegal.

No let me pose a 3 simple questions:

1. Who polices the ombudsman to ensure they act fairly? Perhaps we should have a ombudsman for the ombudsman?

2. Pop quiz, since GSOC was founded how many Gardai have they taken prosecutions against?

3. Since GSOC was founded how many Gardai have been prosecuted by Gardai?

Ruen

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Eh, that anyone convicted for an offence shall be disqualified from driving???????? (1961 act) Definition of a 'sample'? (1968 act) I could go on. The fact of the matter is that Gardai cannot use lights and sirens while speeding just to take a statement for an investigation therefore under what circumstances would GSOC be justified?

Eh, no. Check out Road Traffic Act 2004 section 27 and Garda Siochana Act 2005 section 98 it's fairly easy to understand. They might need to catch some crook Guard to arrest him before he gets away. You don't know what their business is when they're using lights and sirens and it's not really your business anyway so you don't need to worry yourself about it.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

So whats AGS or IA's agenda and why should someone in no danger be worth twice the wages of those that are putting themselves in danger such as Gardai, firemen, etc? What justifies their higher earnings?

Well if they earned less than Gardai you'd have a situation where guards could say they have it in for them because they earn more than GSOC, same way that Gardai resent the GSOC for earning more than them now. And if the GSOC wants to attract experienced investigators and professionals they have to offer them a reasonable benefits package.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Well as already stated IA around the world have superior records to that of any ombudsman. But if your assuming that an Ombudsman just started up and in the public eye have no reason to be biased then why would Gardai be biased or unfair? Its the same thing. You think Gardai are corrupt but dont apply the same assumption to GSOC?????? That makes no sense.

I dont know you personally but you might be an ideal person who would administer the law with integrity and unbiased regardless who you're dealing with be it your best mate, your brother or someone you've never met. But here's the thing, whether you're like that or not when people see you dealing with your mate they automatically think you're biased because you know him personally, now if the public see an investigation into a Guards conduct being investigated by other Guards all they see is the Guards mates pretending to investigate but really looking after it for him even if they dont know each other, that's just what the public see and they don't like it which is why their elected representatives in government established the GSOC that the people of Ireland wanted, the GSOC are completely seperate group which the public like the idea of because they see different organisation with some real power to sort out criminals within the Gardai.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Have you got any evidence to support these assumptions and statements?

Yeah, try find some info for yourself on the GSOC I think you'll be surprised who they actually are because you don't seem to know much about them or are just really badly informed.
Why do you think governments around the world are setting up independent organisations? they're not doing it for no good reason pal.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Well thats just plain wrong for a starter, how did you reach that opinion? However you have failed to realise my point entirely. They are on higher wages NOW. The corruption was throughout the 70s and 80s!

The NYPD are not he highest paid police, I'm just saying about corruption that the Gardai should have less chance of being "tempted" as they earn a reasonable wage.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Well thats a great point. People believe rubbish and lies so thats that, why try to fix somethings that clearly broken??? Perhaps we should apply that reasoning across the board? The firemen in Bray knew what was happening afterall. Nurses knew the wages when they signed up didnt they? In fact on that basis why not just disband labour laws, unions and all employee rights. Afterall if your not happy with the situation then dont join.

They're different issues completeley and people might have their own opinions them, the fact that Gardai can't go around talking to the press and media is nothing to do with laour laws, I've worked for private companies and in the civil service where it says in my contract that I cant speak to the media regarding my job or the company. So Gardai arent the only ones in that situation.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

The situation is that the more serious allegation takes over AT A SCENE and if they are equal then the senior officer at the scene takes control. Again you miss the point. At the recent crash GSOC took control of the scene despite no evidence supporting an allegation against the Garda.

They're not going to know if there's evidence until they investigate the scene, and they can instigate an investigation independently by the way, they dont need an allegation.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

The scenario I stated was if there are two people bloodied and battered in the middle of the street and one is a Garda then GSOC take over. where you get the opinion that GSOC can interview or investigate civilians is beyond me. Their own instructions are clear. GSOC cannot investigate complaints or allegations made by Gardai. Based on this they are immediately biased. Its a simple fact, if you can only investigate one party of two you are not impartial you are biased. In fact they cannot even interview Student Gardai but I know one case where they threatened a student with being arrested and the sack unless he changed his voluntary statement despite the fact they could not do either and its illegal.

I never said they can investigate civilians, and of course they can interview them and take statements...if they couldnt do that then they wouldnt know what happened ever except for what Gardai told them.
AGS can investigate any criminal complaints against a member of the public by a Guard, this is how it works right...Gardai police the public and the GSOC police the Gardai easy right?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Its a simple fact, if you can only investigate one party of two you are not impartial you are biased

That doesnt make sense, so if I get mugged today and tell the Gardai I'll be under investigation just as much as the mugger??? Because if they dont investigate me then they're biased??? If the mugger said I done something on him then fine but what if it's just my complaint against him and he's just denying it and not blaming me for anything? You're assuming that in any situation the Guard would have reason to complain against the other person, and even if they did then it's up to the Gardai to investigate that.




[/QUOTE]1. Who polices the ombudsman to ensure they act fairly? Perhaps we should have a ombudsman for the ombudsman?

2. Pop quiz, since GSOC was founded how many Gardai have they taken prosecutions against?

3. Since GSOC was founded how many Gardai have been prosecuted by Gardai?[/QUOTE]
1. Trust me, the Gardai are no pushovers, they'll make sure their rights are protected in any dealings with the GSOC after all AGS will know when one of their own is being investigated.

2. I dont know, do you? I'm curious about that actually.

3. I dont know that either, do you?

civdef

Deep breaths everyone, lets keep what is a fairly emotive topic nice and civil, like.

Eru

civdef wrote: »

Deep breaths everyone, lets keep what is a fairly emotive topic nice and civil, like.

Im not getting heated, just debating a subject.

In relation to this, the Ombudsman has prosecuted 1 Garda to date, for having a bald tyre. The Gardai, recently have prosecuted 5 that I can remember. One for stealing a car, one for stealing cash in a sting operation, one for fraud and 2 for drunk driving. Theres also two older cases, one for child pornography and one for soliciting. Now thats what I know off but whats of interest in this is the sting, I know he was found innocent but the fact is they did it. They suspected he was corrupt and went after him. Also both drunk driving, one was a superior officer being arrested by a very junior officer. Made no difference, he was arrested and prosecuted. Compare that to the Ombudsman case. A traffic collision where the fatality is a person lying in the middle of the road and they prosecute the driver for THAT!!! You cant say thats not petty. I mean who would do that to someone who has to carry the death on his conscience for the rest of his life?

As for Section 27. This states that section 49 / 50 / 51 and 52 are not included in the exemption and the action must be required and not needlessly endanger the public. My point stands, ombudsman speeding with lights and sirens is not required nor would it stand up in a court of law simple because 'we can do what Gardai can'. Unless life and danger is at risk you cannot use sirens and in those cases where they are in danger the real emergency services are in charge and respond. The ombudsman is NOT emergency services.

As for rights, well isnt that kettle / black? Everyone has rights, the Gardai actually have less rights than members of the public have and as you have mentioned and we have seen, that hasnt stopped corruption or framing the world over.

In relation to talking, every person has the right to sue a paper for slander and defamation of charactor expcpt Gardai. We are specifically mentioned in the various acts as an exemption to the acts. Same as labour laws and health and safety, you will frequently see sections which exclude Gardai from the protection of the act. Of course sometimes its for common sense reasons.

As for wages. Are you suggesting that the ombudsman pay is twice Gardai because they are top notch investigators and the Gardai are not? Again, I dont see why or how they or any other ombudsman has justified their extra pay. Should Gardai be paid based on results? A commision system? I dont think so but perhaps some do.

I also dont think its accurate to state that the world is getting ombudsmen. A lot of countries dont have any system or agency to investigate the police including an IA section. Off hand only us and the PSNI have an ombudsman, the UK in general has an investigation system that could be defined as an ombudsman but outside of the 'home' nations I dont see it. Certainly not in the US or South America or in fact most of europe.

I think you have missed my point about investigating only 1 person. the Ombudsman cannot arrest, detain or question a civilian. My earlier example clearly states that I have made an equal complaint of assault against you however say for example that I am bruised whereas you have a broken nose. That makes yours more serious and its then GSOC's case. In that scenario you cannot be prosecuted for anything said in your statement because its a witness statement not a cautioned one. Therefore its a biased investigation. With a Garda investigation I can arrest, detain and question both parties and my powers against both are equal. Of course I would need to have reasonable grounds, etc.

I take your point about seeing an independent system as being fair versus Garda on Garda and thats always been the reason behind the Ombudsman however lets remember that the Gardai and other 'home' police forces have always operated on a case by case, its-upto-the-officer system (discretion) and many many people across Ireland and Britain have been let off with a warning or a caution simple because the officer at the time felt that taking a prosecution or issuing a ticket was neither needed or served any real purpose. Or too put it simple as someone I know is found of saying, theres plenty of real criminals out there without making more from decent people.

Whooo, didnt plan such a long post. Time for bed!:o

Satan Polaroid

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Or too put it simple as someone I know is found of saying, theres plenty of real criminals out there without making more from decent people.

Oooooo I'm stealing that

Zachary

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Or too put it simple as someone I know is found of saying, theres plenty of real criminals out there without making more from decent people.

Satan Polaroid wrote: »

Oooooo I'm stealing that

It's not the person who's inherently wrong, rather it's their actions that are wrong.