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Do atheists really exist?
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And if they just think they are cured?well if someone is ill and then gets better from some kind of cure then usually they are cured.
That is the problem with relying on personal diagnosis when assessing alternative medicine. A person will often think they are better after the promise of a cure, even if nothing has actually happened to them.
I seriously doubt any of the studies you are talking about that claim to demonstrate homoeopathy actually cures have followed any patients long enough to actually determine that they never notice their sickness again.i really never did hear of people getting sick, being told that they have been cured (but not really) and going on with their lives healthy "thinking" they are cured and not ever noticing the sickness again.
As homoeopaths freely admit it isn't supposed to be used to treat really serious disease, such as cancer, that don't just go away.
No offence but you seem rather ignorant of this whole subject.You either are cured or your not. i think your thinking of wacko patients who dont even know what planet their on.
You are not either "cured or your not" ... there is plenty of evidence that the bodies response to disease fluctuates and can be effected by other asks such as stress. There have been studies that found that simply visiting the doctor, even if he doesn't actually do anything, can relieve symptoms such as pain, suggesting a strong link between the mental state of the patient and how they perceive their symptoms.
There has never been any evidence that that is actually true beyond mere hear-say.What i am saying is that these hompepaths can cure certain sicknesses be it neurological,physical etc not just get rid of the pain but deal with the problem causing the pain.
Personal testimony is irrelevant because the vast majority of patients cannot themselves assess if the problem has actually been cured. Claiming you were cured is not the same thing as actually being cured.
Any time this has actually been studied by people who could actually determine if a person is cured they found no statistical effect of homoeopathy beyond simply doing nothing.
I have heard of downward causation and that isn't what it means. It doesn't say that "thought and will alone" can bring about physical changes, it is a general idea in philosophical science where the macro-functions of a system can effect the micro-functions rather than the more classical view where the micro-functions of a system combine to form the macro-functions of the system.Downward causation would be the reversal of this where thought and will alone can bring about physical change in the body. i dont mean in a placebo way but as in a new paradigm.
An example of this in the area of medicine would be a person getting sick because of the macro-functions of a working environment. The macro-world (the work place made up of trillons of atoms, people, air currents, interacting systems) causes an effect in the micro-world of say the persons liver.
It is simply a different way of looking at causality, some what related to chaos theory.
It includes the placebo effect, so I'm not sure what you mean by "[not] in a placebo effect way"
No actually it is the exact opposite.Check this for info as it is very ineteresting and can support some of what i say about homeopathy and the fact that scientists are just looking in the wrong place:
Homoeopathy is based on the idea of (very very) micro-functions (the interaction between the water molecules and the body) producing larger macro-functions (the disease is cured and the person gets better)
The idea of downward causation would actually be used in with the idea that the water molecules are actually doing absolutely nothing and it is the entire macro-experience of the patient (the learning about homoeopathy, going to the homoeopathy, the whole ritual, the belief something has happened etc.) that can have a smaller (downward) function on the human body effecting the either the disease or the perception of the disease.
In essence the placebo effect.
Well it shouldn't be, though if it is I can see why you believe in this stuff.large numbers of people, millions possibly have claimed to be cured by these pseudosciences. That is proof enough for me.
Million believe Elvis is still alive. Truth isn't a democracy.I really dont beleive people are being scammed by these alternative medicines. The numbers just dont add up and its not like there is some propoganda trail to follow which leads to some kind of hypno advertising campaign making these people go to homeopathists and believe they have been cured from being a vampire or what not.
You have two things you need, 1) people looking for a quick fix cure, and 2) people willing to sell people a quick fix cure. That is all anyone has ever needed.
As with psychics, you might want to consider how many homoeopaths work for free?
Well that could be exactly why you are perfect for people to sell homoeopathy products to you ...I really dont trust all these pharmeceuticle products no more as they are corporate scum trying to get their products out there.ANd to top that off i have not had the same bad cough in the last two years. But i admit that could be due to the fact that i am living somewhere else.
I don't even think I need to say anything here
Certainly.SUre can we just say its differences in opinion?
Its your money you can do what you like with. It is simply that if you are going to post that you think it works I'm going to post that I don't.0 -
And if they just think they are cured?
That is the problem with relying on personal diagnosis when assessing alternative medicine. A person will often think they are better after the promise of a cure, even if nothing has actually happened to them. .
It probably depends on the person. Im definitely not one of those people. I just cant see how some1 who is in pain can think the pain is gone be it after 2mins of homeopathy.its either gone or still there. But i do see the logic in what you are saying and that has to do with placebo. People believe that its a cure so it will be a cure...and so on.I seriously doubt any of the studies you are talking about that claim to demonstrate homoeopathy actually cures have followed any patients long enough to actually determine that they never notice their sickness again.
As homoeopaths freely admit it isn't supposed to be used to treat really serious disease, such as cancer, that don't just go away. .
Your doubt is based on your logical opinion and i fully respect that. Though dont you think if some1 who went to get treated by a homeopothist and found to be sick soon after would be shouting out scam. And lets say a million people went to get treated. Surely all of them would be going back complaining bringing about the demise of this so called science.
Or else the oppiste is happening where people are happy with the treatment and being cured etc.....as i said something has to account for its popularity and you cant compare it to religion cause thats just plain brainwashing and psychological insecurity (or something along those lines). Maybe homeopathy is some new advanced kind of brainwashing though?No offence but you seem rather ignorant of this whole subject.
You are not either "cured or your not" ... there is plenty of evidence that the bodies response to disease fluctuates and can be effected by other asks such as stress. There have been studies that found that simply visiting the doctor, even if he doesn't actually do anything, can relieve symptoms such as pain, suggesting a strong link between the mental state of the patient and how they perceive their symptoms. .
If i seem ignorant it is merely due to a lack of knowledge.
Now about being cured or not cured. I was not including placebo effects or mental states of patients and how they perceive their symptoms. I was quite bluntly saying if a person has a problem that problem can be fixed or remain. Man goes to doctor with sickness, doc gives medication, medication cures sickness, man no longer feels sick.
Now there is other cases where people with certain pain in their body go to doctors to look for a cure and all they give is pain killers-this i would call being not cured as the pain killers are just supressing the pain. Homeopathy on the other hand claims to cure the pain that cannot be cured by doctors and as i have said that is usually the main bulk of their clients (so it appears).
Now like you mentioned above about the studies of people who "feel better" (not cured) when they go to the doctors. I would just call these psychological affects related to illnesses of the mind or of a certain nature like neurological pain where it is bad neurons in the mind sending false signals or something. It has nothing to do with my blunt statement of "if your cured your cured" because someone who feels better when they go to a doctors office obviously still has the sickness they had before they decided to go there in the first place. It is until the doc deduces what the problem is that he/she can be treated and possibly cured.There has never been any evidence that that is actually true beyond mere hear-say.
Personal testimony is irrelevant because the vast majority of patients cannot themselves assess if the problem has actually been cured. Claiming you were cured is not the same thing as actually being cured.
Any time this has actually been studied by people who could actually determine if a person is cured they found no statistical effect of homoeopathy beyond simply doing nothing. .
I do not believe personal testimony is irrelevant at all. especially in what you are saying. people do know if they have been cured. If i have a pain and its still there after treatment then i am not cured and it is most definitely not blocked by some kind of psychological block. Recurring symptoms are usually the sign that the illness is still there and you would need to be a bit messed up in the head to dismiss them and think you are cured.
It is true that the studies have shown no conclusive proof of homeopathy working through those conventioanl/classical types of testing But homeopathists deal with treating their patients very differently than the way normal docs would treat theirs. And the relationship between patient, doc and the symtoms at that time all seem to be relevant amongst other things like energy physics. Sure have a look at this link and it will save me from explaining it (poorley at that)
:http://www.hpathy.com/research/bhatia-scientific-research.aspI have heard of downward causation and that isn't what it means. It doesn't say that "thought and will alone" can bring about physical changes, it is a general idea in philosophical science where the macro-functions of a system can effect the micro-functions rather than the more classical view where the micro-functions of a system combine to form the macro-functions of the system.
An example of this in the area of medicine would be a person getting sick because of the macro-functions of a working environment. The macro-world (the work place made up of trillons of atoms, people, air currents, interacting systems) causes an effect in the micro-world of say the persons liver.
It is simply a different way of looking at causality, some what related to chaos theory. .
well i know it doesnt say that "thought and will alone" thats just how i stored it in my head.Afterall the first time i read about it was in a Dalai Llama book and then from David Bohm who likes to be very philosophical in his physics.
I appreciate your explanation of downward causation as it is very informative, thanks, but that is not the only way to describe downward causation. By thought i mean "non-physical" effects on the body bringing about physical changes (which could be considered macro). Not like emotional,psychological,environmental effects but ones of will and thought etc. And downward causation can be explained in this way also, you think of effect or an effect is somehow put in place that brings about the cause. this is the part that i see as being someway relative to the works in homeopathy. It kind of brings into it that whole idea of controlling your wants and the law of attraction.It includes the placebo effect, so I'm not sure what you mean by "[not] in a placebo effect way".
Placebo is one thing, what i am talking about is another thing.No actually it is the exact opposite.
Homoeopathy is based on the idea of (very very) micro-functions (the interaction between the water molecules and the body) producing larger macro-functions (the disease is cured and the person gets better)
The idea of downward causation would actually be used in with the idea that the water molecules are actually doing absolutely nothing and it is the entire macro-experience of the patient (the learning about homoeopathy, going to the homoeopathy, the whole ritual, the belief something has happened etc.) that can have a smaller (downward) function on the human body effecting the either the disease or the perception of the disease.
In essence the placebo effect. ".
Again i appreciate the info. very informative and interesting.My views in its working are like above differnt and more based on quantum physics than classical.Well it shouldn't be, though if it is I can see why you believe in this stuff.
Million believe Elvis is still alive. Truth isn't a democracy. .
I dont think i have ever heard anyone be so skeptical of people being able to tell weather they are cured from a pain/illness or not. can you explain how this shroud appears over their eyes,aches and pains so that they think they are cured but not?. Baffled i am.
And you know your elvis comparisson is just unrelated to this patient blindfolding situation. Truth aint a democracy but its sure hard to find.You have two things you need, 1) people looking for a quick fix cure, and 2) people willing to sell people a quick fix cure. That is all anyone has ever needed.
As with psychics, you might want to consider how many homoeopaths work for free?
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Ha, quick fix cure my arse. Homeopaths arent cheap and a panadol in the local shop is usually the quickest way no? besides homeopaths usually work from home and are quite hard to find. i would see an equivilent of the homeopath as being that expensive organic store around the corner.
And a good point to say about homeopathy is that their medicines and dilutions cannot be mass produced as they have to be administered specific to the symtoms at that moment to the patient. This is to ensure that their medicines/methods work to the fullest.Well that could be exactly why you are perfect for people to sell homoeopathy products to you ... .
it cured like a charm also=) i would recommend you to try it. next errectile disfunction maybe?:rolleyes:I don't even think I need to say anything here.
Just trying to show that i am being honest and not biased in my researching. It is still to me very plausible that science has not yet figured out everything in life and the physical/metaphysical world and why not an answer for this homeopath.Certainly.
Its your money you can do what you like with. It is simply that if you are going to post that you think it works I'm going to post that I don't.
Well you have to try it to be a true critic and scientist. as i said when the micky fails again maybe try the witch doctor/homeopathist down the road in the ginger bread house. She might have exactly what you and the missus needs:D0 -
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