feedback isnt working

randylonghorn

Terry wrote: »

Long rant aside ...

tallaght01

DeVore wrote: »

Gandalf23, I will answer your question. Mods say "take it to feedback" NOT when asked "why was I banned" but when they have explained the reason and the poster begins to argue with the mod, either in public or in PM and gets told "take it to feedback".

I too would be interested in the threads where you think someone got a rough time and didnt deserve it because I'll bet I missed them. I have a strong trigger-point some of you may have noticed. I get a bit wooowooo nutty when someone weak gets picked on by someone strong. I find it very hard not to step up and get involved...
But if I've missed some threads, point them out because I think feedback, while not perfect, is working alright. We could improve things but we havent agreed a way yet...

DeV.

DeV,

I've just had a quick look through the first 3 or 4 pages in feedback and this is what I've found. There were a couple of threads about bannings that got sorted (eg haney's, in fitness), but there were a few that weren't. Or, in those that did get sorted, the OP had to endure a lot of hassle to get a resolution.

I'm not saying these peope were all unfairly banned. That woud be a whole different issue. The issue is whether or not people are getting a hard time for posting in feedback. I think they are, though I feel it's infinitely better than it was a few months ago, in fairness,

The first page of this one is embarrassing,a s I've said a few times:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242572



In the one below, you gave him some kind of feedback in the first few posts. Then it's left open for cat pics and abuse to continue. The OP has been called an idiot who can't read and a loser with no friends.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055238441




cat pics all over the shop in this one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236975



The next one is a total joke:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236191

Like I said, I'm not commenting on the bans themselves. Just commenting on the fact that the way peope are treated might put peope off.

But threads ike the one involving hanley and g'em, and the one where Jules banned setantaL are a real step in the right direction.

Nerin

ok,
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242572&page=6
page one, whats your problem? OP came in, was all angry (which can be understandable,if he didnt get what was happening) he didnt get why he was given out to for trolling because he didnt get what Trolling/being a troll on the net is about. Myself and Almighty Cushion posted definitions at the same time. OP even thanked us(so why youre making it an issue ) http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55216309&postcount=4

Im sure you'll justify it,so i'll wait to hear from you on that one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055238441
as fysh said, charter states

"No (potentially) libellous material. I don’t care if you think [insert operator] is crap, I don’t want to see a five page thread on it and get a solicitor’s letter along with it."

broke the rules and was making more of an issue about it. people made fun of it. shock horror.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236975
Was arguing off topic on PI page,was then warned,continued to argue.
two off topic pics to this feedback, and yet lo and behold posters are still giving relevant replies. Then the OP screws up and shows that he has been using multiple accounts, and much more madness did ensue, but people still talked about the OP as well.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236191&page=2
2 threads within days of eachother with comments that could be taken as racist. Now tp be totally honest, even i thought there were a bit too many cat pics in that one.


so yeah, em, did you even read what was going on/history of the problem/reason people would start making fun of OP/Topic???
because if you did and you thought the first 3 are terrible, then im confused.
as for number 4 i'll admit that got a little out of hand.

ps,also the irony of this thread,in feedback, with the title feedback not working, and doing so well, its just...beautiful.

tallaght01

nerin wrote: »

ok,
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242572&page=6
page one, whats your problem? OP came in, was all angry (which can be understandable,if he didnt get what was happening) he didnt get why he was given out to for trolling because he didnt get what Trolling/being a troll on the net is about. Myself and Almighty Cushion posted definitions at the same time. OP even thanked us(so why youre making it an issue ) http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55216309&postcount=4

Im sure you'll justify it,so i'll wait to hear from you on that one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055238441
as fysh said, charter states
broke the rules and was making more of an issue about it. people made fun of it. shock horror.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236975
Was arguing off topic on PI page,was then warned,continued to argue.
two off topic pics to this feedback, and yet lo and behold posters are still giving relevant replies. Then the OP screws up and shows that he has been using multiple accounts, and much more madness did ensue, but people still talked about the OP as well.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236191&page=2
2 threads within days of eachother with comments that could be taken as racist. Now tp be totally honest, even i thought there were a bit too many cat pics in that one.


so yeah, em, did you even read what was going on/history of the problem/reason people would start making fun of OP/Topic???
because if you did and you thought the first 3 are terrible, then im confused.
as for number 4 i'll admit that got a little out of hand.

ps,also the irony of this thread,in feedback, with the title feedback not working, and doing so well, its just...beautiful.

I knew that after i said that the point of my post was to look at the hoops peope had to jump through, and not the validity of the bannings, that someone would jump in just to defend those bannings.

I just didn't realise it would happen this quickly.

Nerin

tallaght01 wrote: »

I knew that after i said that the point of my post was to look at the hoops peope had to jump through, and not the validity of the bannings, that someone would jump in just to defend those bannings.

I just didn't realise it would happen this quickly.

im always lurkin somewhere.

also,it being feedback, im giving you my feedback on your post.

Gordon

tallaght01 wrote: »

I knew that after i said that the point of my post was to look at the hoops peope had to jump through, and not the validity of the bannings, that someone would jump in just to defend those bannings.

nerin also addressed those points, he didn't "just defend the bannings".

tallaght01

Gordon wrote: »

nerin also addressed those points, he didn't "just defend the bannings".

I don't think that's true. But we can agree to disagree.

Nerin

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't think that's true. But we can agree to disagree.

well im still awaiting a proper response from you.

randylonghorn

tallaght01 wrote: »

I knew that after i said that the point of my post was to look at the hoops peope had to jump through, and not the validity of the bannings, that someone would jump in just to defend those bannings.

I just didn't realise it would happen this quickly.

In fairness, Tallaght, Nerin did to some extent look at the factors which precipitated the "hoops".

Sometimes posters (trolls; re-regs; etc) deserve "hoops": e.g. in this example everybody took the piss because even those without mod powers / info. almost immediately recognised a re-reg. of a re-reg of a ... etc.)

Sometimes posters may not really deserve them, but they draw them upon themselves by their attitude (see my 'rights rant' above; pace Terry!).

And sometimes they don't deserve them, but they get them anyway, and that is where I would agree with you that there is still room for improvement.

nerin wrote: »

ps,also the irony of this thread,in feedback, with the title feedback not working, and doing so well, its just...beautiful.

Yes, to an extent ... but it's still suffering from the usual problem that people on both sides are so busy arguing their own point of view that they're not really trying to understand the points which others are making.

It's an attitude that always reminds me of the Hist / the L&H / the Lit'n'Deb / the Phil ... and it works grand in many parts of Boards, e.g Politics. Feedback might do better with a little less of it, though.

tallaght01

nerin wrote: »

well im still awaiting a proper response from you.

I'm sorry, nerin. It's not going to happen. I just can't face it. I see so many problems with you defending thread were a poster is villified. So, we all know how it's going to go. We're going to quote each other endlessly, and it's gonna go like the thread on the poker banning. I ran out of steam on that eventually, and I'm not gonna spend my time in this circular debates.

I can't keep hitting that quote button over and over again. I started out feeing embarrassed for you guys because of it. Now I'm starting to feel embarrassed for myself.

We have very different views on the importance of civility on a thread. That's fine.
I've posted where I think people have been gievn too much hassle. You disagree because you think they were dicks. You think that's an acceptabe reason to throw someone tot he dogs. I don't. I guess that's the fundametal difference here.

So, I've posted. I'm done. The admins own the site they can decide what to do from now.

TelePaul

Gandalf23 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055221133
To be honest I think Dame was treated disgracefully here. It was embarrassing the way her poll was tampered with, when it could have potentially given interesting results. She was bullied outright. Jerry Springer audience tickets anyone?

Wow what a complete joke. Kinda sums up the point of this thread.

Ponster

SofaKing wrote: »

Never understood why some Mods say take it to Feedback regarding bannings, complaints, etc. Should always be Helpdesk, non?

Yes it should be IMO. But we don't exactly get an instruction manual when we become mod that explains what advise to give in each case.

As already mentioned, it may be incorrect to move "Why was I banned...?" to Helpdesk as maybe the OP prefers to have an open forum where he can get support from other members but in reality I doubt that very many members know the difference between Feedback and Helpdesk and feel frustrated by lolcats in their threads.

IMHO staff should inform people to take their problem to feedback/helpdesk and explain brefly the difference betwen each forum (I had standard replies ready to copy&paste such as this). As well as that feedback should be modified as closely as any other forum if not even closer. Besides a could of obvious ones, all forums in the SYS section of the board should get more attention than others as it's the official side of Boards and if staff can't control a SYS forum then it doesn't give a good impression of the entire site really.


As sad as it sounds, I didn't know that HelpDesk existed until yesterday and have always sent people to feedback (after of course Pming a mod for answers if applicable) w/o realising that I was in error.

Feedback is well a forum for giving feedback based on your experience on Boards; The 'Photography Forum' thread is a perfect example.
As

Sherifu

TelePaul wrote: »

Wow what a complete joke. Kinda sums up the point of this thread.

I suspect this was part of the reason she got a hard time:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055221112
everything can be taken out of context....
This thread led to her starting the thread already mentioned and could have been seen by some as dame having ulterior motives for posting the second thread.

Crash

Just on the feedback/helpdesk lark, as I've repeatedly said the system needs to be reformed. As it stands, if a user queries a ban i dislike telling users to go to helpdesk, for the simple reason that I have no right to reply there, and dislike giving someone a soapbox to type about how i'm an asshole for banning me.

TelePaul

Sherifu wrote: »

I suspect this was part of the reason she got a hard time:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055221112
everything can be taken out of context....
This thread led to her starting the thread already mentioned and could have been seen by some as dame having ulterior motives for posting the second thread.

Hey, thanks for that link. But im my opinion, it just adds insult to injury. Sure, backseat modding is a problem. Know what else is a problem? Inconsistency on the part of the Mods. It'a huge problem.

TelePaul

çrash_000 wrote: »

As it stands, if a user queries a ban i dislike telling users to go to helpdesk, for the simple reason that I have no right to reply there, and dislike giving someone a soapbox to type about how i'm an asshole for banning me.

Sorry, but would it be right to infer from the above that you don't condone any sort of appeal channel?

cornbb

TelePaul wrote: »

Hey, thanks for that link. But im my opinion, it just adds insult to injury. Sure, backseat modding is a problem. Know what else is a problem? Inconsistency on the part of the Mods. It'a huge problem.

Part of the inconsistency problem stems from the fact that every forum on boards has different rules, plus there are very few hard-and-fast rules dictated to the mods so most mod decisions are made on a discretionary basis. I know this isn't fair some of the time but I'd believe that out of the hundreds of moderators on boards, the vast majority are fair the vast majority of the time. Its very hard to be consistent when there are so many factors in play: site rules, charter rules, the posting history of the user, the context in which an offending post was made. Everything is taken on a case-by-case basis, hence the apparent lack of consistency. Fairness is more important than consistency.

DeVore

To be consistent you need to draw hard lines in the sand. This leads to the muppets walking right up to the line and rules-lawyering their way out of things. Plus the rules would have to be so exact as to be a tome of a rulebook, not to mention it would still vary considerably from forum to forum...

Do you have a suggestion as to how to handle appeals better?

DeV.

TelePaul

cornbb wrote: »

Isite rules, charter rules, the posting history of the user, the context in which an offending post was made

I guess a good example would be the Music Production forum, is there a definitive rule on an approach to cracked software? There wasn't before you became Mod AFAIK. Also, in the list above, you left out 'Who the member is'. I can remember when a certain high-profile Mod posted in the transgender forum on april first, saying he had resigned himself to getting a sex change operation. Now, I'm pretty sure anyone else would be site-banned over this.

cornbb

TelePaul wrote: »

I guess a good example would be the Music Production forum, is there a definitive rule on an approach to cracked software? There wasn't before you became Mod AFAIK. Also, in the list above, you left out 'Who the member is'. I can remember when a certain high-profile Mod posted in the transgender forum on april first, saying he had resigned himself to getting a sex change operation. Now, I'm pretty sure anyone else would be site-banned over this.

I think its fair that any poster who's been here for a while (whether or not they are a mod) is given the benefit of the doubt a bit more quickly than a newbie. But I agree that a mod should not escape a ban just because they are a mod.

As for the Music Production forum, there has always been a rule against the discussion of pirated software, this is the case all the way across boards. A thread saying "where can I get Cubase for free?" would be swiftly deleted but a thread saying "I just got Cubase and all this other sh*t-hot software in one go and I have no idea how to use it, can you help?" would set off alarm bells. But its not a 100% clear cut case of breaking the rules, maybe you disagree but then again thats my discretion in action. I'm against the use of pirated music and software personally, but as the user is not explicitly asking how to obtain/crack/steal illicit software then its not breaking the rules as I see it.

TelePaul

DeVore wrote: »

Do you have a suggestion as to how to handle appeals better?

DeV.

Ban cat pics. Really, do.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong a line being drawn - if you're worried about people 'stepping up to the line', then make the rules more concise or make more of them - but of course, this takes time and would probably amount to quite a bit of work. However, if you're going to even entertain the idea of a ban appeal, then the Kangaroo court that is feedback isn't the place for it. If time and effort were of no issue, you'd probably need to set up a tri-party panel of convenors - an Admin, a Mod and a non-mod member representative. Silly, eh? But at least, on paper anyway, it would be fair.

AlmightyCushion

TelePaul wrote: »

I guess a good example would be the Music Production forum, is there a definitive rule on an approach to cracked software? There wasn't before you became Mod AFAIK. Also, in the list above, you left out 'Who the member is'. I can remember when a certain high-profile Mod posted in the transgender forum on april first, saying he had resigned himself to getting a sex change operation. Now, I'm pretty sure anyone else would be site-banned over this.

Mods have been banned and even site-banned permanently in the past.

TelePaul

cornbb wrote: »

As for the Music Production forum, there has always been a rule against the discussion of pirated software, this is the case all the way across boards. A thread saying "where can I get Cubase for free?" would be swiftly deleted but a thread saying "I just got Cubase and all this other sh*t-hot software in one go and I have no idea how to use it, can you help?" would set off alarm bells. But its not a 100% clear cut case of breaking the rules, maybe you disagree but then again thats my discretion in action. I'm against the use of pirated music and software personally, but as the user is not explicitly asking how to obtain/crack/steal illicit software then its not breaking the rules as I see it.

Hmmm. I know for a fact that in the past, people who have freely admitted to cracking software - and it is easy to spot - have been given help. Though I can't remember a case where it has happened during your time as Mod, it has happened in the past.

TelePaul

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Mods have been banned and even site-banned permanently in the past.

I don't doubt it, what I'm advocating though is a measure of consistency.

AlmightyCushion

Gandalf23 wrote: »

The point is that the lolcats started in post 3. Of a fairly serious thread.

Ok but that lolcat didn't derail the thread and turn it in to nonsense. In the end an admin said there were going to personally look at introducing something that was discussed on the thread. How is this a bad feedback thread? Sure a lolcat or two was posted but who gives a shít when in doesn't influence the outcome.

TelePaul

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Ok but that lolcat didn't derail the thread and turn it in to nonsense. In the end an admin said there were going to personally look at introducing something that was discussed on the thread. How is this a bad feedback thread? Sure a lolcat or two was posted but who gives a shít when in doesn't influence the outcome.

But if you're not going to make a valid contribution - and a lolcat is NOT a valid contribution - then why bother posting at all? In fact, ironically enough, it's THIS sort of thing that people get banned for in the first place.

cornbb

TelePaul wrote: »

Hmmm. I know for a fact that in the past, people who have freely admitted to cracking software - and it is easy to spot - have been given help. Though I can't remember a case where it has happened during your time as Mod, it has happened in the past.

I seem to remember one or two incidents involving mentions of cracked software. The baseline rule throughout boards, however, is that discussions on how to obtain cracked software are banned, and there has never been a case of that arising in the MP forum.

At the other end of the scale I've seen users asking where to buy DVD duplicators banned from the computing forums. That to my mind is way over to top, especially as there is a DVD duplicator in my office that is used to legally print my employer's product. There is a legitimate use for these products and there was no evidence that the poster concerned was going to use it for illegal purposes.

I take your points but I hope you take mine, that it is necessary to use discretion in each and every case, therefore a degree of inconsistency is inevitable.

AlmightyCushion

TelePaul wrote: »

But if you're not going to make a valid contribution - and a lolcat is NOT a valid contribution - then why bother posting at all? In fact, ironically enough, it's THIS sort of thing that people get banned for in the first place.

People rarely get banned for one off topic comment. People get banned when their sole contribution is off topic nonsense and they do it to a point where it severely disrupts the forum. Snyper did this, snyper got banned. Do you think that every off topic comment should warrant a ban?

cornbb wrote: »

At the other end of the scale I've seen users asking where to buy DVD duplicators banned from the computing forums. That to my mind is way over to top, especially as there is a DVD duplicator in my office that is used to legally print my employer's product. There is a legitimate use for these products and there was no evidence that the poster concerned was going to use it for illegal purposes.

Agreed that was a very harsh ban. I may be wrong but I think the poster was unbanned as a result of a feedback thread though (Ironically enough).

TelePaul

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Do you think that every off topic comment should warrant a ban?

In feedback, yes. Withotu doubt. As for other forums, I think some mods are alot stricter about off topic comments than you'd think - read the Poker banning thread. One off topic comment.

Sherifu

cornbb wrote: »

At the other end of the scale I've seen users asking where to buy DVD duplicators banned from the computing forums. That to my mind is way over to top, especially as there is a DVD duplicator in my office that is used to legally print my employer's product. There is a legitimate use for these products and there was no evidence that the poster concerned was going to use it for illegal purposes.

There is a thread going on now in comp & tech discussing torrents and dvd ripping re: what should and shouldn't be allowed. I think it's great that the mods have left it open for users to discuss what should and shouldn't be allowed and what's legal. It's healthy for the forum.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055243121

TelePaul wrote: »

In feedback, yes. Withotu doubt. As for other forums, I think some mods are alot stricter about off topic comments than you'd think - read the Poker banning thread. One off topic comment.

The charter for that forum is a little different.