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    #122
    Ponster
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Do you think that every off topic comment should warrant a ban?

    Nope, but it should result in a mod posting a warning to the user in the same thread about not posting non-helpful comments.

    If this was put into place rather than waiting for members to go so far than they get banned the problem would be cleared up in a couple of weeks.


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    #123
    cornbb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    Sherifu wrote: »
    There is a thread going on now in comp & tech discussing torrents and dvd ripping re: what should and shouldn't be allowed. I think it's great that the mods have left it open for users to discuss what should and shouldn't be allowed and what's legal. It's healthy for the forum.
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055243121

    Thanks for pointing that out, I'll read it. You're right, it is healthy for a forum to get that stuff out in the open.


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    #124
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Ponster wrote: »
    Nope, but it should result in a mod posting a warning to the user in the same thread about not posting non-helpful comments.

    If this was put into place rather than waiting for members to go so far than they get banned the problem would be cleared up in a couple of weeks.

    Do you really think the admins have that sort of time on their hands.
    TelePaul wrote: »
    In feedback, yes. Withotu doubt. As for other forums, I think some mods are alot stricter about off topic comments than you'd think - read the Poker banning thread. One off topic comment.

    I was only referring to feedback there, sorry. I don't think people should get banned from feedback from a single comment (well it really depends on the circumstances). People should be allowed to post there feedback here and respond to others feedback. If they post the odd off topic comment, big whoop. If they keep doing it and derail a load of threads then let them taste the ban-stick.


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    #125
    stevoman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stevoman


    this is really getting nowhere. as far as i can see there's fundamentally two sides like there always is on this feedback forum and nobody is willing to give or take (well maybe some). Im gonna go start a poll to see if cat pics should be banned on this forum. This should be interesting?!?!
    Ps - thats me dont on the issue then mods, i'l leave it at that.


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    #126
    Gandalf23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Gandalf23


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    DeV,

    I've just had a quick look through the first 3 or 4 pages in feedback and this is what I've found. There were a couple of threads about bannings that got sorted (eg haney's, in fitness), but there were a few that weren't. Or, in those that did get sorted, the OP had to endure a lot of hassle to get a resolution.

    I'm not saying these peope were all unfairly banned. That woud be a whole different issue. The issue is whether or not people are getting a hard time for posting in feedback. I think they are, though I feel it's infinitely better than it was a few months ago, in fairness,

    The first page of this one is embarrassing,a s I've said a few times:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242572



    In the one below, you gave him some kind of feedback in the first few posts. Then it's left open for cat pics and abuse to continue. The OP has been called an idiot who can't read and a loser with no friends.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055238441




    cat pics all over the shop in this one.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236975



    The next one is a total joke:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055236191

    Like I said, I'm not commenting on the bans themselves. Just commenting on the fact that the way peope are treated might put peope off.

    But threads ike the one involving hanley and g'em, and the one where Jules banned setantaL are a real step in the right direction.

    Brilliant post. I'm waiting with baited breath for an answer now that some examples have been given. Mr. DeV?


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    #127
    Gandalf23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Gandalf23


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Ok but that lolcat didn't derail the thread and turn it in to nonsense. In the end an admin said there were going to personally look at introducing something that was discussed on the thread. How is this a bad feedback thread? Sure a lolcat or two was posted but who gives a shít when in doesn't influence the outcome.

    The lolcat may not have infulenced the outcome in this particular thread, but it sure didnt add anything to the thread either. And we've all seen where lolcats have reduced threads to stupidity.

    I'm sorta surprised you seem to be advocating the use of lolcats as a useful and constructive addition to serious threads. Or if thats too strong, at least you seem to have very little problem with them.


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    #128
    Ponster
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Do you really think the admins have that sort of time on their hands.

    Ahh, I have only heard rumors of the lifestyle of a Boards.ie Admin. :)

    I guess it really only applies to the "Why am I banned from XXX forum"? threads and even then it applies to the user that really can't understand why they were banned as opposed to the user that is just looking for trouble.

    Add an extra few mods into feedback - keep a closer eye on what type of OP is getting lolcatted and avoid at best example like those in tallaght01's post.


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    #129
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    DeVore wrote: »
    To be consistent you need to draw hard lines in the sand. This leads to the muppets walking right up to the line and rules-lawyering their way out of things. Plus the rules would have to be so exact as to be a tome of a rulebook, not to mention it would still vary considerably from forum to forum...

    Do you have a suggestion as to how to handle appeals better?

    DeV.

    Exact rules wouldn't work, but consistency among mods would help, when you have 2 or 3 mods engaging with a user in a discussion and then you have another mod that comes in and bans the user and then you have the usual where the mods stick together and the admins won't get involved.

    Its not a democracy and mods can and will do as they like but when a user has been treated unfairly the admins shouldn't be afraid to come in and give the user a fair deal even if the mods all stick together and say they won't mod if the ban is lifted.

    The admins own the site and the mods are volunteers who by and large do a good job but users who use the site in a reasonable way should get a fair deal imo


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    #130
    Gandalf23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Gandalf23


    stevoman wrote: »
    this is really getting nowhere. as far as i can see there's fundamentally two sides like there always is on this feedback forum and nobody is willing to give or take (well maybe some). Im gonna go start a poll to see if cat pics should be banned on this forum. This should be interesting?!?!
    Ps - thats me dont on the issue then mods, i'l leave it at that.

    Lets just all pray you dont get ridicule, insult, many many lolcats, and your poll changed the same way "dame" did ...


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    #131
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    Villain wrote: »
    Exact rules wouldn't work, but consistency among mods would help, when you have 2 or 3 mods engaging with a user in a discussion and then you have another mod that comes in and bans the user and then you have the usual where the mods stick together and the admins won't get involved.

    Its not a democracy and mods can and will do as they like but when a user has been treated unfairly the admins shouldn't be afraid to come in and give the user a fair deal even if the mods all stick together and say they won't mod if the ban is lifted.

    +1, great point.


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    #132
    Gandalf23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Gandalf23


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    I'm sorry, nerin. It's not going to happen. I just can't face it. I see so many problems with you defending thread were a poster is villified. So, we all know how it's going to go. We're going to quote each other endlessly, and it's gonna go like the thread on the poker banning. I ran out of steam on that eventually, and I'm not gonna spend my time in this circular debates.

    I can't keep hitting that quote button over and over again. I started out feeing embarrassed for you guys because of it. Now I'm starting to feel embarrassed for myself.

    We have very different views on the importance of civility on a thread. That's fine.
    I've posted where I think people have been gievn too much hassle. You disagree because you think they were dicks. You think that's an acceptabe reason to throw someone tot he dogs. I don't. I guess that's the fundametal difference here.

    So, I've posted. I'm done. The admins own the site they can decide what to do from now.

    In fairness there are more than him defending this. Disgraceful.
    tbh wrote: »
    it's been said over and over gandalf, dame's thread is not a fair example because dame started that thread with a hidden agenda, and the thread went the way it did because people knew it, and generally don't like that. If you could find someone with a genuine problem who got ridiculed your argument would carry more weight.

    Have a look at #126 and the many other examples given above ... and I still think dame was treated disgracefully ...


    So, I've posted, and I'm done too ... suggestions have been made, examples have been given, answers have been sought. No more to say really because the camps are well entrenched at this point. It will be very interesting to see if anyone responds to the examples given in #126 ...


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    #133
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Gandalf23 wrote: »
    Lets just all pray you dont get ridicule, insult, many many lolcats, and your poll changed the same way "dame" did ...

    it's been said over and over gandalf, dame's thread is not a fair example because dame started that thread with a hidden agenda, and the thread went the way it did because people knew it, and generally don't like that. If you could find someone with a genuine problem who got ridiculed your argument would carry more weight.


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    #134
    Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 11,196 ✭✭✭✭Crash


    TelePaul wrote: »
    Sorry, but would it be right to infer from the above that you don't condone any sort of appeal channel?


    ....thats the most random inference i've ever seen. I do condone an appeal channel, however one that is fair to both the user appealing and the mod they are saying has unfairly banned them. at the moment, helpdesk does not provide that, as the mod has no right to reply.


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    #135
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    tbh wrote: »
    it's been said over and over gandalf, dame's thread is not a fair example because dame started that thread with a hidden agenda, and the thread went the way it did because people knew it, and generally don't like that. If you could find someone with a genuine problem who got ridiculed your argument would carry more weight.

    I think it's nigh impossible to have a sterile and impartial Feedback debate. Maybe because the mods get their say as well as the supposed 'victim'. I don't think you can gloss over the points Dame made regards consistency of infractions, irrespective of her reasons for saying them.


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    #136
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    çrash_000 wrote: »
    ....thats the most random inference i've ever seen. I do condone an appeal channel, however one that is fair to both the user appealing and the mod they are saying has unfairly banned them. at the moment, helpdesk does not provide that, as the mod has no right to reply.

    Sorry, wasn't accusing you of anything, just clarifying that you're in favour of a new kind of appeal system.


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    #137
    Sherifu
    Registered Users Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    TelePaul wrote: »
    I think it's nigh impossible to have a sterile and impartial Feedback debate. Maybe because the mods get their say as well as the supposed 'victim'. I don't think you can gloss over the points Dame made regards consistency of infractions, irrespective of her reasons for saying them.
    You're mixing up two threads now. The one dame started about infractions and the one started about getting a resolution in feedback. The latter one was the one originally brought up as an example of a feedback thread being derailed.


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    #138
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    TelePaul wrote: »
    I think it's nigh impossible to have a sterile and impartial Feedback debate. Maybe because the mods get their say as well as the supposed 'victim'.

    ORLY?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242647

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055244246

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242817

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055244427

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241227

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055243279

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055243948

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242302

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242875

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055240707

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055228823

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241345

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055235139

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055239318

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055238390


    Should I go on past page 2?


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    #139
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Gandalf23 wrote: »
    The lolcat may not have infulenced the outcome in this particular thread, but it sure didnt add anything to the thread either. And we've all seen where lolcats have reduced threads to stupidity.

    I'm sorta surprised you seem to be advocating the use of lolcats as a useful and constructive addition to serious threads. Or if thats too strong, at least you seem to have very little problem with them.

    The reason I don't have a problem with lolcats is because it's not a case where one lolcat turns a thread to nonsense and lolcats aren't the only thing that turns a thread to nonsense. If you ban someone for posting a lolcat then you'd have to ban some one for posting a non constructive post.

    In the "Most users online" thread, if I post "w00t! \o/", should I get a ban from feedback?

    There was a feedback thread a while ago titled "Why was I banned from after hours?". The guy who posted it was a trolly re-reg (it was obvious to anyone not just mods). His first post (and only post)in the thread was "Niggers". He's done this a hundred times before. I reported the post (so that he would be site-banned again).

    I then posted "Oh, naggers" in the thread (remember that south park episode). Should I have been banned for this? It wasn't constructive so by your definition yes. I definitely don't think anyone should get banned for that as they may be one of the most helpful members on the forum yet one response to an obvious troll who is a re-reg gets them a ban.

    If you don't ban someone for it, you'll get someone complaining because they got banned for an off topic remark yet I wasn't. This is why the admins take a common sense approach over a strict rules approach. If you constantly act the twat when you shouldn't you get banned.


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    #140
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    tbh wrote: »
    ORLY?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242647

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055244246

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242817

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055244427

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241227

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055243279

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055243948

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242302

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055242875

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055240707

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055228823

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055241345

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055235139

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055239318

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055238390


    Should I go on past page 2?
    nice.
    in regards to the dame issue, she got in trouble for personal abuse,and then started a thread angrily about it. then came to feedback for more pot shots.
    just thought you should know the serious thread you were defending.

    im disappointed Tallaght didnt respond o my post, maybe gandalf?
    and just because i dont agree with your view doesnt mean you have to label me, although you could say alot worse than boards fanboy.


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    #141
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    Sherifu wrote: »
    You're mixing up two threads now. The one dame started about infractions and the one started about getting a resolution in feedback. The latter one was the one originally brought up as an example of a feedback thread being derailed.

    You're correct; the point stands however - dames' second thread (which included a poll) may be seen as a precursor to this thread. Until people rubbished it with cat pics etc. And you may say Dame was pursuing an ulterior motive, but in terms of geuine feedback, I thought the poll was a good idea.


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    #142
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Gandalf if all off topic posts are to be banned then surely these posts should deserve a banning:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55247267&postcount=3
    What does a comment about a thread staying civil have to do with cat pics being banned on feedback.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55248260&postcount=26

    What does limiting the amount people can post on feedback have to do with whether cat pics should be banned on feedback.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55248333&postcount=27

    Same as the two above, it has nothing to do with the topic.

    This is the problems with rules that have to be strictly adhered to. You can twist and turn them to get innocent posts and people banned.


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    #143
    Sherifu
    Registered Users Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    TelePaul wrote: »
    You're correct; the point stands however - dames' second thread (which included a poll) may be seen as a precursor to this thread. Until people rubbished it with cat pics etc. And you may say Dame was pursuing an ulterior motive, but in terms of geuine feedback, I thought the poll was a good idea.
    I agree 100% with you. It's a pity that she started a good thread for possibly the wrong reasons and that *may* have tainted the poll, I don't know if it did or not. I think the poll may be intact as it is except for the cat pics option. Maybe something can still be learned from it.


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    #144
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    tbh wrote: »
    ORLY?

    With the exception of Hanleys post, I just think you are being facetious; if you weren't then let me say my post was pertaining solely to 'Why was I banned?' threads....I'd kinda assumed that our debate was routed primarily in this.


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    #145
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    What on earth gives you the idea that we dont get involved?

    We do. We get quite involved in fact, we just don't handle things in private. Ideally, so would the "plantiff" but they choose to start threads here.

    There are at least as many who don't post here but who discuss it with the mod or with an admin.

    There are, actually, surprisingly few bannings that aren't either clear cut (and the "plaintiff" is just as much a dick in contesting it as they were to get banned in the first place). There are bannings where it becomes clear that the plaintiff isnt a dick and usually the mod unbans them after a three way discourse. Then there are the odd few where the mod has been heavy handed and I pm the mod and discuss the case, usually coming to some sort of compromise. Ultimately I have (and will) over rule a mod and reinstate a user. If there is a big problem with that, mods have been demodded before but genuinely that just doesnt happen much because the mods are mostly reasonable people.

    What I'm not about to do is allow people free reign to abuse mods or stamp their feet at them. Good mods are hard to come by, ignorant posters seem to be 10 a penny.

    We correct or over rule mods in private and with discussion between all parties, its simply good manners.


    DeV.


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    #146
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    TelePaul wrote: »
    With the exception of Hanleys post, I just think you are being facetious; if you weren't then let me say my post wa spertaining solely to 'Why was I banned?' threads....I'd kinda assumed that our debate was routed primarily in this.

    ok, I didn't realise that. But my point all along is that feedback should not host those bannage threads, in fact if you look at the 6th sticky on the forum, it's called:

    This is for FEEDBACK. If you have a query, complaint or need help, use the HELPDESK.


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    #147
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    DeVore wrote: »
    What on earth gives you the idea that we dont get involved?

    We do. We get quite involved in fact, we just don't handle things in private. Ideally, so would the "plantiff" but they choose to start threads here.

    Fair enough, I don't want to go over old dead ground but I had a thread going here for quite a while and I know there was a thread going on in the mod's forum about the issue too and perhaps admins did get involved with the mods but I would have liked to have got some feedback from an admin as none posted in the feedback forum to give their opinion, all I got was PM saying the ban stood from regi.


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    #148
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    DeV?

    Might it be an idea to revamp helpdesk? If mods/cmods/smods and thread starters were allowed post there and then mods informed that they were ONLY allowed post in resposne to threads regarding forums they mod (and strictly enforced), it might allow a fairer resolution to some of the issues without the sidetracking and Pratchett-esque "street theatre" we get in feedback?

    Let feedback then become about feedback on the forums and site and let helpdesk be about bannings.

    Either than or a new and separate forum, outlines as above and let helpdesk deal with password changes, name changes etc etc...


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    #149
    aidan_walsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,208 ✭✭✭✭aidan_walsh


    Villain wrote:
    I would have liked to have got some feedback from an admin as none posted in the feedback forum to give their opinion, all I got was PM saying the ban stood from regi.
    So you got feedback from an admin in exactly the way that DeV described, out of the public view.


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    #150
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    DeVore wrote: »

    There are at least as many who don't post here but who discuss it with the mod or with an admin.

    Dev, in my limited experience (having been banned just the once) the chances of a mod who has banned you having a complete change of heart over a PM discussion is very unlikely, no matter how wrong they may be. And that's why people take it to Feedback, to bring the said 'injustice' to the powers that be.

    I think what's needed are more Mods. There are definetely a few here who engage on frequent power trips and seem somewhat set in their ways. Even if a second Mod disagrees with the banning, there's no way it'll be lifted - nobody wants to rock the boat. But if two out of three mods feel someone has been unduly given a hard time (or hasn't, as the case may be) it might provide a more balanced view.


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    #151
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    So you got feedback from an admin in exactly the way that DeV described, out of the public view.


    Nope I got a one line confirmation, no feedback on admins opinions


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